Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)

The first issue I wish to comment on is how we select the top appointments in the Garda Síochána. Let us be blunt. Much of the criticism of the Garda Síochána is not concerned with the lower ranks but with management. The question is whether there is sufficient management expertise in the Garda Síochána. I am not pointing a finger at any individual at the top level of the Garda but at the general management approach. One must wonder how somebody who has come up through the police ranks would acquire the management skills required unless they have had the opportunity of acquiring those skills in modern management schools or outside the Garda Síochána.

We must confront the issue of how to ensure that middle and top management of the Garda will have the best management skills. This issue has been avoided. On Committee Stage I suggested bringing civilians with management skills into the top levels of the Garda Síochána. I highlighted the case of the Minister's former special adviser who has become the head of public relations with the PSNI. I understand she holds the position and status of assistant chief constable. Despite being a civilian she has that seniority and status. Will we follow the same precedent? That is not to suggest that we slavishly follow everything that is done in Northern Ireland.

In the early days of the Garda Síochána there was another precedent whereby people with a military background were brought into the force. I am not saying "yea" or "nay" to that practice. Management expertise is needed. Top people in the Garda Síochána might be given leave of absence for several years to enter management positions in the private sector to broaden their expertise and return with that into the force. We must be open to a new approach to management so that the best police force in the world about which I have spoken will be the best-managed police force in the world.

Deputy Gerard Murphy touched on a point I have frequently raised and will raise again possibly for the last time in the context of this Bill, namely, an Oireachtas security committee to provide oversight. I take the Minister's formal response on that issue, that he is not responsible for setting up committees. However, external oversight is necessary.

This committee should be outside the security loop of the Minister, the Department, the Garda headquarters and gardaí down the line. The Minister resolutely opposes a police authority and has argued his point on that. Whatever happens in the future we should put that external oversight in place through the Oireachtas. That is why I believe an Oireachtas security committee is necessary.

It may be said that the Garda Commissioner may come before the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights but that committee is overloaded and could not cope with that responsibility. Alternatively, it may be argued that, under this new Bill, the Garda Commissioner will come before the Committee of Public Accounts as the Accounting Officer but that will be to deal only with accounts which is the role of that committee. I refer to operational matters, the type of issues on which, had there been oversight, we might have avoided many recent difficulties.

The Garda Síochána should be the best police force in the world with the best resources possible but it should know that to a degree it is under the additional microscope of an Oireachtas security committee. This committee should be fully resourced, similar to the Committee of Public Accounts, with an Opposition chairman to ensure that it remains outside the loop I have described. It often seems that the Government chairman of an Oireachtas committee is the mouthpiece of a Minister. I do not say this particularly of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights. The chairman of a security committee must be a member of the Opposition.

Can that security committee be set up as soon as the Bill is enacted? What needs to be done? I made my point and the Minister has agreed with me so it should not be left in limbo. Will a memorandum be sent to Government suggesting that it take the necessary steps in the House to put the arrangements in place?

I agree with Deputy Costello that within two years of the implementation of this Bill an independent policing commission, similar to the Patten Commission, should be established. The Government rejected the proposal last night. Nevertheless, it would be useful that when the Act is in place, everyone involved, from the Minister through to the Garda Síochána, is aware an independent commission would take place in two years. That would help to keep everyone alert and, in addition to the immediate oversight of the proposed Oireachtas security committee, help to ensure that the aims of this Bill would be achieved.

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