Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)

Perhaps you could hear me out, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. My colleague, Deputy Howlin, drew attention to the fact that last Friday the Minister, Deputy McDowell, informed the House that the Carty report was not delivered to him or to the then Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue, at a time when its full contents would have definitely been of interest to them and would have enabled them to make earlier judgments on some of the issues involved. Yesterday, the Taoiseach stated that a partial version of the Carty report was eventually furnished in November 2001 and that the complete report was not furnished to the Minister and to the Attorney General until the very end of January or early February 2002.

However, during his period as Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O'Donoghue repeatedly indicated to the House that he had the Carty report. On 7 February 2001, in response to parliamentary questions, he did not indicate in any way that he did not have the Carty report, although he had plenty of opportunity to do so. On 23 May 2001, he stated that "the investigation by Assistant Commissioner Carty was completed and presented to me and, in turn, to the DPP".

Yesterday, Deputy Howlin confronted this House with a clear contradiction in the statements that have been made by the current Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, and his predecessor as Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue, concerning the same matter. In terms of parliamentary accountability, there is no more serious matter than a Minister misleading the House.

Quite clearly, one or other of those Ministers is not telling the truth to the House. Either the Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue, had the report in 2000 or 2001 — as he told the House on 23 May 2001 that Assistant Commissioner Carty's report was completed and presented to him and, in turn, to the DPP — or he did not. If that version is not correct, then at the very least there is an obligation on the Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue, to correct the record and explain to the House why he told us that in 2001. If, on the other hand, what the Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue, stated in 2001 is correct, then the current Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, has a difficulty in terms of what he told the House last Friday. At that time he said that the previous Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue, did not have the report. The Taoiseach repeated that the report was not available until 2002.

This is not a minor matter concerning some incidental documentation that got lost in the amalgam of material that goes through a Minister's departmental office. This was a major report on an investigation into matters of the most serious character concerning the conduct of gardaí in Donegal. The serious nature of what occurred is now in the public domain as a result of the report of the Morris tribunal. This was about citizens of this State being stitched up by gardaí and a subsequent attempt to cover up that stitching up. I can think of no more serious matter relating to the conduct of gardaí than that contained in the Morris tribunal's report, the substance of which we now know was in the report of Assistant Commissioner Carty which was available three or four years ago.

The question to which the House must have an answer is when did the Minister know that? Did he have the report or did he not have it? Is the statement made to this House by the Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue, accurate or is the statement made by the Minister, Deputy McDowell, accurate? The House is entitled to know because Ministers are accountable to the public through this House. As a House of Parliament we are entitled to know and to be told.

We are debating the Garda Síochána Bill, much of whose contents arise from the matters investigated by the Morris tribunal and which have been reported upon. We are entitled to know the facts. We have an entitlement to question and probe the matter until we get a direct and acceptable answer.

Which statement is the accurate one? Is it the statement made by the Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue, in 2001 that he had the report, or the statement by the Minister, Deputy McDowell, that he did not? Other issues will arise depending on the answer to that question. If Deputy O'Donoghue misinformed the House — let me put it as gently as that — then there are questions and issues which this House will have to address concerning his stewardship as Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and his suitability to continue as a Minister.

If the information provided to this House by the Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue, is correct, in other words, that he had the report back in 2001, as he stated, then other equally serious questions arise. They include why that report was not transferred to the then Attorney General, why the motion proposed at the time by the Labour Party seeking a public inquiry into these matters was voted down, and why the Executive maintained a position concerning the matters in Donegal, in the face of what it would then have known arising from the Carty report?

We are discussing serious matters for the people directly involved. We are also talking about grave matters in terms of the accountability of Government and the Executive. I am serious when I say, "We are in resignation territory here." It is an extremely serious matter when one Minister comes into the House and says something is black and another comes in a few years later and says it is white. The situation is as straightforward as that. One or other of the Ministers is not telling the truth to the House.

We are debating the Garda Bill here and no doubt, the Minister, Deputy McDowell will address the issue. I invite him to do so. There is also ample opportunity for the former Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O'Donoghue, to come into the House to respond to the issues Deputy Howlin raised yesterday. It is extraordinary that there has been no response by now from the Ministers concerned, a day after the charges were made. They must give a response today.

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