Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)

I wish to defend Deputy Cuffe. The Minister tried to misrepresent the point the Deputy was making. I do not doubt that the Deputy will have another chance to make his point and to correct the Minister.

Most Opposition Deputies did not object to the proposal to establish a volunteer police force. We agreed with it in principle, but we sought clarity and further details about its operation. We did not receive answers to most of the questions we asked about the volunteer force. The Minister's amendment No. 68 contradicts the text of the Bill. The Minister has tried to deal with this in section 14(3), which states that "a volunteer member has the same powers ... as a person appointed under section 13 to the rank of garda". In other words, volunteer members will have the same powers as ordinary members of the Garda Síochána. Both categories of member are inseparable in terms of the powers they can exercise. They are the very same.

Although section 14(3) does not refer to the Garda Commissioner, as I have outlined, amendment No. 68 proposes the inclusion in the Bill of a new section 14(5), which will state that "the Garda Commissioner may determine the range of powers to be exercised" by volunteer members of the force. What does that mean? Does it mean that the Garda Commissioner may make a blanket determination of the range of powers to be exercised by the reserve members? Does it mean that the Garda Commissioner will be able to determine from time to time the range of powers to be exercised? What does it mean? How can the proposed new section 14(5) be reconciled with the blunt statement in the existing section 14(3) that "a volunteer member has the same powers" as a member of the Garda?

As I understand it, the proposed section 14(5) will mean that the Garda Commissioner will be able to declare at any time that the reserve members have certain powers. It will not matter that section 14(3) states that they have the same powers as the other gardaí with whom they work side by side. If he wishes, the Garda Commissioner will be able to declare at another time that the reserve members have a different set of powers. Does the amendment mean, as I understand it, that at some future stage, this Garda Síochána — I do not refer to the next Garda Síochána — will be given a general blanket set of powers? If that is what the Minister means, he should state it explicitly in the legislation. He should state precisely what he means.

It is either the case that the members of the proposed Garda reserve force will have the same powers as ordinary gardaí, or it is not. We should not give the Garda Commissioner the power to determine, as he or she sees fit, the powers he or she will allow a reserve member to exercise. The Minister has not clarified the matter. The House should determine the powers of the proposed Garda reserve force.

The point made by Deputy Finian McGrath has some validity. I was present during the trip to England to which he referred. I spoke to members of the constabulary in England who were extremely critical of the voluntary police system. They argued that the voluntary members of the police force do very little compared with what the members of the constabulary do but are paid almost the same amount of money. I was told that the voluntary members are indistinguishable to the public when they put on their uniforms because they give the impression that they are real police officers. Many of the members of a UK police force to whom I spoke were quite critical of the manner in which the reserve force operates. That is the other side of the coin which should not be forgotten.

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