Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)

I am pleased to make a small contribution on the Morris report. I am sorry we are not having a sufficiently long debate to enable every Member of the House who wished to contribute to do so. Harry S. Truman coined the phrase, "The buck stops here". If that were to apply to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the Minister would change it to read, "The buck stops everywhere but here". That would also apply to his immediate predecessor. It is clear that at every hand's turn since this issue first emerged, every time an attempt was made to obtain information everybody was responsible but nobody was responsible. I do not wish to lecture the Minister but we have listened to many lectures from him over the years. There is such a thing as ministerial responsibility. That does not necessarily mean political interference. It means the Minister must be in a position to say to the staff in the Department and whoever else is involved, that he wants to know what is going on, if things are being progressed in accordance with the law, if due process is taking place and if everybody is being treated in an even-handed fashion. That did not happen in this case.

I and other Members have brought to the Minister's attention issues I believed were not proceeding in accordance with due process. He knows this quite well. I am concerned we are beginning to see the emergence of a new culture in which it is decided the House does not need to know certain matters because it is deemed that they do not concern it. There is a view that that which the House does not know will not concern anybody else.

As a result of this developing culture, when a Member tables a question in the House, the first response is that the Minister has no responsibility to the House. If we are lucky enough to get by that particular hurdle, the relevant Minister uses the phrase "I am advised by ...". This applies not only to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law reform but also to other Ministers. I do not want to be seen to be lecturing the Minister on how to do his job but my point applies to him and all the officials in his Department and every other Department. When a question is tabled, it should be answered in its entirety. The failure to do so represents a system failure on the part of each person involved. The Minister once informed me he would answer no more questions on this subject. That is slightly off the wall and can never be allowed to prevail in this House or any democracy.

I compliment people such as Deputy Howlin and Jim Higgins MEP who put their necks on the block by raising this issue with the relevant authorities. It is a pity that when they conveyed this information, suspicion fell on them in that it was questioned why and by whom they were given it. It was asked whether malice could be proven in the case of those who gave the information. We know how this process works. It was very disingenuous of the Minister and his immediate predecessor to attempt to spread the mire on a previous Minister in the rainbow coalition, the former Deputy Nora Owen. It was dishonest, churlish and chauvinistic. If she had been a male Minister, there would not have been such alacrity to dump on her so quickly. I once stated in the House that a former Member of the House did something similar in respect of the former Deputy Owen just before the last general election. Had she been male in that case, would people have taken such liberties so quickly?

I pay tribute to the gardaí who have discharged their duties honestly on behalf of the people of this State down through the years. In doing so, many paid the ultimate price in that they gave their lives. The sad result of the activities described in the Morris report is that they sully the entire force and the memory of those who discharged their duties honourably, lived up to the high standard which they were supposed to live up to, raised the flag on every occasion and did their job.

It is sad that we are dealing with the misbehaviour of gardaí. We have no way of exerting an influence in this regard other than by raising the matter with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform or another Minister. It is the duty of the Minister to take on board the matters raised. This also applies when talking to members of the public. A member of the public with a grievance, such as a member of the McBrearty or Barron families, is entitled to have his or her case heard. It does not matter where such people come from or the political organisation or party to which they affiliate themselves. This should be borne in mind at all times. Their cases should be investigated forensically in the same way as every other case.

I could continue for a long time in this vein because I have been concerned about these issues for some considerable time, as the Minister knows. Deputy Blaney mentioned Tina Fowley who gave evidence in the initial stages of the case that blew it wide open. In my time in public life, I have come to know countless instances where the institutions of the State were used to bolster civil cases, even family law cases. This is quite typical. It is wrong that this is allowed to happen. Anything else can be done but this should not be done. It is corrupt and nobody should stand over it.

Every day of the week, there are cases in which the institutions of the State are sought by various people to substantiate their cases. This should never be tolerated or allowed. An example is the use of gardaí to carry out illegal evictions in circumstances where there has been no court case, court order or public hearing. This cannot be allowed. However, I pay tribute to the many people who do their jobs honestly and honourably.

In light of my reference to the former Deputy Nora Owen, I believe we should also pay tribute to people such as Veronica Guerin who wrote a great deal about certain activities when it was not popular to do so and who therefore did not always receive the accolades for her work. She paid the ultimate price. I pay tribute to other journalists who from time to time write about matters when it is unpopular to do so, as opposed to those who scramble for the crumbs from ministerial tables and run off and reinvent them in a very glorious light when it suits them. There is none better at this than the Minister's Department. I will provide him with countless illustrations if he wants them.

A Deputy mentioned "Tonight with Vincent Browne", which programme nightly pursued all the machinations of the case, detailing every road, boreen, traffic light, wet night, lunch break and everything else. Vincent Browne should be given credit for staying with the case, writing about it and doing so fearlessly.

I would prefer not to apportion blame because this is a matter for another day. However, I want to refer to a statement made by the Minister at the beginning of his contribution. He began with what was like an apology for his previous churlishness in respect of blaming others. The first Morris report refers to the effects of dismissal.

The Tribunal notes that early dismissal can lead to the loss of pension. In the majority of instances, this is an unnecessary and unfair consequence. A member of An Garda Síochána may work for years, legitimately building up credits on his or her pension fund, and then require to be dismissed by reason of a single, or a series, of evil actions. It is conceivable that a person who has been commended, even for bravery, might fall to the degree that requires their dismissal. It does not seem logical that the consequence of a short period of bad service should result in the removal of the benefits legitimately gained, perhaps through years of hard work and application.

Mr. Justice Morris said "the majority of instances" and not "in every instance". He does not say "in all circumstances". He leaves it out very deliberately and specifically. I agree entirely. I have always held this view when everybody howls for dismissals and pension withdrawals. However, Mr. Justice Morris is saying something different from what the Minister said to the House. He is clearly indicating what remains to be done, depending on the severity of what he regards to be the crime or evil. This will become more obvious in subsequent reports.

There was a considerable systems failure and also ministerial failure. Instead of having run around in circles like an excited turkey cock a fortnight before Christmas, the Minister and his immediate predecessor should have called for information. It is the Minister's right to ask for information on the functionality of his Department. If he does not do so, he becomes vulnerable himself. Every Minister should seek information because it helps. In this regard, some of us have had a short period in which to learn how the system works.

Normally in circumstances such as these a report is required, after the issuing of which questions must be asked. If a Minister is not satisfied with the information being made available or, more importantly, detects a reluctance to give information, he or she must take action. If he or she does not do so, he or she will pay the price. That is the sad part.

I am sorry we do not have more time to discuss this issue. Mr. Justice Morris is to be complimented on the honesty and clarity of his report. He apologises to nobody and does not stand away from anybody. He is not too concerned about what people might think about his report; he is only concerned about ensuring that the office and Department function properly.

I do not accept the Minister's fixation on the need for extra legislation. Whenever I hear there is a need for new legislation, it usually means somebody has not been doing his or her job. I can point to countless instances in which this is the case. As we move forward the point made by Deputy Jim O'Keeffe about the reconstitution of the Garda force to cover all avenues is apposite. It must be made abundantly clear to the public that everybody will be treated fairly in the future. This requires a reconstitution of the force and the setting up of an ombudsman along the lines of the office administered by Ms Nuala O'Loan in Northern Ireland. In fact, if she could be borrowed with agreement from the Northern Ireland authorities, I would strongly recommend such a course.

I strongly agree with another point that has already been made, namely, that a declaration of interests should apply to all members of the Garda Síochána and all public office holders and senior officials. The same application of rules should apply as apply to public representatives generally.

See this speech in context