Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)

Not for the first time I find myself agreeing with Deputy Finian McGrath. However, I will not accept the amendments because the thrust of what they propose to achieve is already covered in the Bill. One of the commission's primary functions is to conduct an inquiry into the abuse of children in institutions, ascertain why it occurred and who was responsible. That mandate includes establishing as complete a picture as possible of the causes, the nature and the extent of physical and sexual abuse of children in institutions and other places from 1940 to the present day. The Executive and the courts had a role to play in the placement and detention of children in institutions. The commission already has the ability to report on this role. I do not propose to accept amendment No. 2.

The Bill provides for the commission to investigate the various roles of those in authority, including officials attached to various Departments, as outlined in amendment No. 3 in Deputy Gogarty's name. The commission already has a broad range of institutions within its remit, including day schools and hospitals. It is, therefore, not necessary to accept this amendment.

There is always a difficulty when attempts are made to include judges in legislation, as proposed in Deputy O'Sullivan's amendment. It is difficult to do and can be dangerous because of constitutional rights and the separation of powers. Quite apart from the length of time that has elapsed and the difficulties in establishing facts, obviously the independence of the Judiciary is the key issue. Anything said or done in a person's capacity as a judge would have been privileged. However, the commission can examine the general operation of the system and the workings of the courts, rather than examining a particular decision in a particular case. It already has power in the legislation to look at the circumstances of how the children were detained and the manner in which they continued to be detained, without specifying an individual case or judge. Hence, the legislation in the Bill already facilitates what the Deputies are trying to achieve through their amendments, without specifying the particular groups, authorities, executives, courts et cetera, as the Deputies wish.

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