Dáil debates

Wednesday, 11 May 2005

Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2005: Second Stage (Resumed).

 

7:00 pm

Photo of Michael RingMichael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)

I disagree with all previous speakers in regard to the commission. It may be an independent entity but it is disgraceful that judges, Clerks of the Dáil, officials and others are represented but not those most affected by its deliberations, namely, politicians. The commission did its job fairly in adjudicating on the structure of constituencies. However, its members have no understanding of politics. How many national elections have they stood for, did they reach the quota and have they stood for town or county councils?

It is great for these independent minded people to decide the futures of politicians. Suppose, however, a commission were set up by the Oireachtas to decide how judges or Clerks of the Dáil and Seanad should be elected, for example. There would be an outcry that no judge or official of the House would be represented on the relevant commission. Politicians, however, allow judges and Clerks of the Dáil to decide our future and the way we should operate within politics.

Other speakers have posed the question as to why people do not vote. The reason is that politicians have handed over their power to non-elected persons. This began with the EU and we repeatedly use the excuse that a particular provision is required by EU legislation. People died for the right to vote but every day in this House Members sign over power to non-elected entities.

Many of those elected to such bodies have never put their name on a ballot paper. Examples include the National Roads Authority and the Health Service Executive. It is now the case that Ministers pay a fortune for the services of programme managers and spin doctors. One Minister has 14 programme managers but there are not as many doctors in Mayo General Hospital. It is wrong that we allow ourselves to continuously hand over our powers to non-elected representatives and this is an issue we must examine. It is the reason citizens do not vote in local, Dáil and European elections. The perception is that public representatives are not worth voting for because we have handed over our powers.

A previous speaker referred to the issue of policy announcements. An example is the scheme to deal with the nursing homes debacle. This was announced today on the streets of Dublin instead of in this House. It is little wonder people are not interested in politics and politicians because we sell ourselves short. Every policy announcement should be made in the Dáil before being discussed on national radio. Instead, every issue is discussed on "Liveline" and "Morning Ireland" and is not debated in this House until three months later when people are tired of hearing about it. This must stop. If there is to be real Dáil reform, we must begin using this House as a discussion forum and forget about the EU and non-elected representatives.

In the ten years since I was first elected, the only proper debate I have witnessed in this House was that which took place some weeks ago on the situation in Northern Ireland in respect of Sinn Féin and the McCartney sisters. Citizens spoke about and were interested in that debate because it involved a real engagement between the Taoiseach and the Opposition. Everything else is stage managed, programme managed and controlled by non-elected representatives. This must change.

Although I was not successful, I had the pleasure of taking a case to the High Court in regard to the abolition of the dual mandate. I have a warning in this regard for Fianna Fáil backbenchers and for some Members on this side of the House who did not support me in this instance. There will be many former Deputies leaving count centres in a distressed state after the next election. The loss of their Dáil seat will mean the end of their political career. In the past defeated Deputies at least had the opportunity to retain their council seats and rebuild their political careers from that base.

That option is no longer available and Members will discover that younger candidates are establishing themselves in their constituencies and managing the local party organisation. These candidates are ready to take their chance when the local party Deputy loses his or her seat. Whichever party finds itself in a position to form a Government after the next election, particularly if the numbers are tight, will be obliged to reverse the legislation abolishing the dual mandate. Having witnessed the devastation wrought upon Fianna Fáil backbenchers, any parties or individual Members courted by a potential Taoiseach will insist on a commitment to restore the dual mandate in return for their support for a new Government.

There is evidence of the fastest growing employment sector in Ireland in every council and health board office. The employees in question are not non-nationals or refugees. It is those engaged in recording telephone voicemail messages. The latest development is that when one telephones a county council office, one invariably encounters a recorded voicemail greeting to indicate the recipient of the call is at a meeting or otherwise engaged. These employees must never stop meeting each other or perhaps having fun together. They are certainly not serving the people. The benchmarking process has cost the State a fortune but the only obvious result is the proliferation of voicemails. I challenge the Minister of State and his officials to telephone any council or health board and not encounter a recorded voicemail message.

This situation must be addressed quickly. Yesterday I sent a strongly worded e-mail to the manager of Mayo County Council, of which I was previously a member, reminding him of the legislation passed in this House and what the Government promised us in regard to replies. It is no wonder council officials do not reply to Deputies' questions when one considers that questions addressed to the Government in this House are examined by spin doctors for days in an attempt to ensure the information sought is not imparted. The State has become a dictatorship within a democracy because people refuse to answer questions.

How could the independent commission make a decision that may well ensure the electorate of County Leitrim, the most beautiful county, is not represented in the Dáil? It is wrong that this should be the case. If the commission members understood politics and rural life, they would know the importance of having one's own man or woman in the Dáil for those who live in a county and feel a loyalty to its colours. I hope those electors in Leitrim campaigning against this decision will bring their case to the High Court and attain a positive result. People in Leitrim died to attain a vote and to ensure a person from their own county would represent them in this House. How can any Government allow a situation where Leitrim may not have a representative in the next Dáil?

In my constituency of Mayo, I regularly travel from Shrule through Ballinrobe, Newport, Bangor, Belmullet and down to Blacksod. It is more than 160 miles from one end of the constituency to the other and it is wrong that public representatives must undertake this type of mileage. Mayo has a population of more than 110,000. I do not see why we cannot have two three-seat constituencies rather than one five-seat constituency. It is not right and it is putting pressure on elected representatives. It is wrong that people criticise us for travelling here, there and everywhere to look after our constituents. That is the Dublin 4 and the upper class attitude. This is not the House of Lords and we are not here for life. One is elected to this House for a four or five-year term and the people of the constituency expect a Deputy to represent them and to be available. We are Teachtaí Dala — messengers of the people. If we do not listen and speak to the people and serve them, they will soon forget about us. Some of them have forgotten about us already because we no longer sit on the councils, for which we will pay a price.

Deputy McHugh spoke about the Independents and blamed Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and previous Ministers. He is probably right that the Independents were never in Government. There is only one Independent in this House, he is in the Fine Gael party and the Minister of State, Deputy Noel Ahern, is looking at him. The others are not independent. They were not independent during the Presidential election and the recent removal of the dual mandate. The only time they are independent is when they collect the €33,000 per year which they get as Independents. They come together and say they want to be a party and want the same privileges in the House as Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and the Labour Party. That is fine if they are a political party but why is each of them able to draw down €33,000 unvouched? The leaders of Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and the Labour Party must produce audited accounts showing how they spend their money. If these guys want to be a party, let them provide audited accounts. One cannot be in a party and be independent. One cannot seek the privileges of the House as a party and then draw down the €33,000 as an Independent backbencher. One of the worst places to be in politics is on the Government backbenchers, although it is even worse on the Opposition backbenches. Government backbenchers are fodder for the Government and must take the abuse. However, it is fine to be an Independent if one has €33,000 to spend. It is time that was highlighted.

I listened to previous speakers talk about electronic voting. Public officials have rented property to store electronic voting machines for which they are being paid by the State. Some of them work in the Civil Service while others work in councils. If the Minister of State had bought a shed to store electronic voting machines and got paid for doing so, there would be an outcry. However, there was no outcry when an official of a council bought a shed to store electronic voting machines.

It is time to get rid of the electronic voting machines and I have a suggestion as to what to do with them. We are always talking about democracy, educating young people and about how we can get people to vote. I propose that we give the electronic voting machines to schools that can use them to hold mock elections to educate young people on the election process.

We should forget about electronic voting because the people do not want it and did not ask for it. The only ones who wanted electronic voting were the Minister, Deputy Cullen, and Fianna Fáil. I wonder why. They handed over powers in respect of electronic voting to a guy in Holland. I never saw his name on the ballot paper but, by God, I am sure he could doctor the ballot paper in whichever way one wanted. I do not trust electronic voting and I should not have to. The people put their ballot papers in boxes and they are counted the next morning. People continue to enjoy that process and I do not want to see electronic voting.

The previous speaker talked about Britain. We took some good and some very bad things from Britain but we should be able to run our own elections without depending on Britain. The previous speaker was right when he said last Wednesday's election in Britain was over at 9 p.m., that they had the exit polls a half an hour later and that they were out by one seat. It is easy to do that because Britain does not have proportional representation. Some 60% of the people who voted in last week's British election voted against the Government. If that is democracy, it is a queer kind of one. Under our system, the count goes on for three or four days. If the count is going well in the morning, one is in good form but if it is going badly, one has a day to take it on board. At least it is not as cruel and as painful as what happened when electronic voting was used on a trial basis here. Nora Owen was a very foolish woman not to take a case to the High Court because we have found the system was not trustworthy. Those who were elected using the electronic voting system were not truly elected. If I was in Nora Owen's constituency and if I had been beaten, I would have been in the High Court the next day. We would have had a test case and another election.

I turn to the cost of elections. There is no doubt we have pushed ourselves into a corner. I want to have a go at my good friends in the media in regard to expenses. The Independents lectured us about expenses. When they give up politics, many of these fellows could get lecturing jobs in Trinity College because they are good at lecturing. I heard one Independent Deputy make a point about expenses. How can one compare the Minister of State with me? The Minister of State lives in the city of Dublin while I live in Westport, County Mayo, of which I am very proud. It is a lovely town and is the tidiest town in Ireland. It is 155 miles from my home to the House. The Minister of State can go home Monday to Friday but I must travel up on a Monday and work here until Friday.

I have listened to the media compare the 166 Deputies. The Minister of State is also a Deputy. He is lucky enough to be in office, which is an honour. However, when a freedom of information request is made, it should also seek information about Ministers as well as Deputies. It is wrong and unfair of the media to compare the 166 Deputies. Surely I cannot be compared with Deputy Joe Higgins who goes home for his breakfast, dinner and tea and to bed. I have to stay here Monday to Friday. How can the media compare Deputy Joe Higgins with me? I am in the top ten in terms of expenditure. Why would I not be? I want to be in the top five in the five seat constituency of Mayo after the next election, whatever about in the top ten. Ministers have chauffeur driven cars and programme managers which are not considered an expense so it looks as if Deputies are making a fortune. That is not the case.

I see guys in my constituency and outside it spending a fortune in between elections. It is time we looked at that issue. If we are to control the cost of elections, we must control what is spent in between them. If not, everybody should be let spend what they want.

It is time legislation was introduced to enable us to remain on as Deputies until the count is over. There is a daft ruling that once the general election is called, one is no longer a Deputy. There is hypocrisy in that Senators remain on as such until the Seanad election is held. It should be the same for Deputies who are not allowed to use the facilities. We have gone from one extreme to the other. We have become whiter than white. If we do not stop, we will have to count the Biros, the pencils and the next time we go to the toilet, the toilet rolls we use. That is what will happen if we do not stop. It has gone from one extreme to the other. I also want to say regarding voting——

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