Dan Boyle (Cork South Central, Green Party)

I am happy to have the opportunity to contribute to this debate. All in the House recognise the need for new, all-embracing legislation dealing with the organisation of the Garda Síochána, and we welcome the opportunity of recognising the service the force has given to the State since its foundation.

We need to consider the detail of this Bill. Those on this side of the House, at least, need to argue about some of what has been proposed not being what is needed, and wrong prioritisation of issues regarding what can and should be done. We have already had a long debate on this Bill but it has facilitated further information on what modern policing means in Ireland. Sometimes, such information is not what we like to hear. While the gardaí are entrusted by us to enforce the highest standards of law, and the law itself, it is unrealistic to expect a pristine police force because a force reflects the society it serves.

Unfortunately, we are exposed in our police force to some of the worst reflections of the behaviour which exists in society in general, and as public representatives we need to know how that can be minimised, eliminated and guarded against so it does not re-occur in the future. Those who listened to the re-enactment of the Morris tribunal would wonder why there is not a wider debate about what seem to be systemic problems regarding the Garda Síochána promotion system, the perceived need to provide high-profile so-called crime convictions which turn out not to involve crimes, and the development of networks in terms of how people can push themselves forward as individuals within the Garda Síochána.

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has not responded properly to the Morris tribunal findings. It is not enough for him or the Government to say that we should wait for the tribunal's conclusions. What has emerged so far is worrying enough and requires an immediate response. The Minister should be challenged on why he is not reacting more strongly to the revelations.

In the past weeks an audit has been published by the human rights working group. Regarding ever-changing Irish society in terms of its make-up, the report says emphatically that the Garda has difficulty responding to problems which can lead to institutional racism. The Garda Commissioner has fully accepted the findings of the audit and has put in place a timetable for ensuring its recommendations are implemented. Unfortunately, however, the timetable runs to the end of 2007. Questions need to be asked regarding why the prioritisation is being made at Garda Commissioner level in the manner it is being made. It seems to me and many others that the recommendations should be implemented immediately. An opportunity is being lost to stop some of the attitudes highlighted by the independent audit becoming entrenched.

When I read press reporting of the audit I was reminded of a sketch from a British television comedy show in the 1980s, "Not the Nine O'Clock News", which featured two British policemen talking to each other. One was being scolded by a superior officer for arresting a person on more than 150 occasions on ridiculous trumped-up charges such as impersonating a human being, crossing a footpath in a reckless fashion, and breaking and entering an egg. This was satire, reflecting the existing attitudes in the British police force at the time. We have not properly adapted to the changing Ireland in failing to anticipate that such attitudes could and perhaps do exist, and accepting that proper safeguards can and should be put in place. The audit has played a useful role in that regard. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform should, in terms of his relationship with the Garda Commissioner and his accountability to this House, allow us the opportunity to see how the reform timetable is being enforced and give us regular reports on whether the problems in the police force continue to exist or are being finally stamped out.

I will move on to more positive areas when I get the following off my chest. An unfortunate aspect of debating the need to make the Garda Síochána into the best possible police force it can be is the sometimes negative attitude taken by garda representative bodies, with any type of criticism seen as requiring a negative response. Most members of the Garda Síochána believe in and support the need for reforms, and are willing to participate in them. We need a climate whereby such support exists. Otherwise, the attitude we have seen taken in the past by various Ministers for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to the ordinary membership of the Garda Síochána might bring about difficulties. We have seen that in instances such as the "blue 'flu".

The central proposal in the Garda Síochána Bill is to establish an ombudsman commission to deal with complaints against gardaí. Many members of the Opposition feel that a three-person commission dilutes and diffuses its effectiveness.

I do not wish to denigrate my constituency colleague, the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, who is sitting in for the Government side, but I had hoped the Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Brian Lenihan, would have remained in the Chamber. I was going to use him as an example because as part of his brief with the Departments of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and Health and Children, he was responsible for the introduction of an ombudsman for children. In that regard the same debate occurred on the question of whether a person or a commission should head a well resourced and well staffed office. The recommendations in respect of an ombudsman for children came down heavily on the side of it being one person with a focus, someone who would take on responsibility for how the office would run and on whom accountability would focus. The Government is sending mixed messages in saying there can and should be one ombudsman in terms of administrative affairs and one for children, but that for the Garda there must be an ombudsman commission with three members.

There is also a question about whether the powers given to this commission will be sufficiently effective. They will not exist to the level of the police ombudsman in Northern Ireland. It is a strange irony that in terms of inspections and on-the-spot inspections a body such as the Council of Europe committee for the prevention of torture has rights to access any Garda station in the country at any time, yet this power will not exist for the ombudsman commission in terms of its regulatory role with the Garda.

The proposal for the joint committees is welcome. Previous speakers mentioned the problems of anti-social behaviour. Another Cork colleague, Deputy Kelleher, is in the Chamber. We are all aware of the situation of my Green Party colleague in Cork city with regard to community policing and the anti-social behaviour in his part of the city. This is not unusual to him or his locality. It exists in every community. The difficulty is that highlighting the incidence of anti-social behaviour seems to invite other anti-social behaviour. The role that the police can and should play in this is a legitimate part of this debate.

The debate comes down to the fundamental aspects of the nature of policing. The Government, in this debate and throughout its term of office, continues to trot out statistics about more gardaí and more resources. However, because of how operations have changed within the Garda, people do not meet or see gardaí. Despite the additional gardaí, on a per capita basis numbers are fewer because we have a greater population and proportionately fewer gardaí. Those gardaí we have do more work behind the scenes and less on the street. Unless we get that balance right, public confidence in the ability to have effective policing will be badly undermined.

The Bill is very unclear as to who will be part of the joint committees and how they will be reported. More importantly, it is not at all clear as to how effective they may be. There are several layers of so-called consultation on many aspects of Government business, both at local government and national level. As public representatives few of us have confidence in those consultative procedures because they are not consultations. They are talking shops and have some legal recognition, but there is no process involved in many of these bodies whereby people can go in, register complaints and see those complaints acted on. The mechanisms do not seem to be in place to act on such complaints. If the policing committees only exist in that form, I am dubious as to whether the type of public support needed to make them effective will exist. Similar bodies exist in Britain and Northern Ireland and seem to be effective. However, what is being proposed here and what exists there seem to be different animals. There is a reluctance to go the extra inch to make bodies that would be effective and inspire public confidence.

On the role of the Garda and young people, it is unfortunate that the benchmarks that seem important in the Department of the current Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform are the moneys spent on the creation of additional prison spaces. There does not appear to be any balance in his equation as to how that money can or should be better spent.

In the debate on additional Garda places there does not appear to be any debate on how the juvenile liaison scheme can be strengthened, whether more people should be involved at that level or whether there should be more face to face interaction with young people. It is recognised that young men from their teenage years to their mid-20s commit the largest proportion of crime and that these form the largest proportion of our prison population. It is no accident that the propensity to commit crime and to draw these people into the cycle of crime in their communities is considerably lessened where there is interaction and intervention and when resources are allocated. However, we seem not to want that type of debate, to make those choices or put the resources in place.

In my experience as a youth worker I found it frustrating that even when initiatives were put in place, such as divergence schemes with regard to joyriding, they were always on a pilot basis and there was always uncertainty about their future. In many instances the schemes were not continued beyond a pilot basis. Using the cliché of Tony Blair, if we are serious about being tough on crime and on the causes of crime, we must examine both sides of this social equation. I do not believe the current Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is capable of doing that. He seems to have a particular myopia in terms of what crime is and how it should be tackled. Unfortunately, how he proposes to structure the Garda Síochána is part of that myopia.

The Taoiseach's remark on the Order of Business the other day was also unfortunate. To be fair, it was probably meant in jest. However, the implication that "roughing up" a young person is an acceptable form of policing is not acceptable. I accept it might be acceptable to many people in society. In terms of wider politics it might even be politically popular to say this. However, the essence of policing is that the Garda must earn respect and use respect to keep respect. The use of violence in any form by those who uphold the law invites, encourages and incites violence from people whom we are trying to discourage from breaking the law. It brings about an unending cycle we do not want to see in society. I do not believe this was the Taoiseach's intention, but such remarks, even when made in jest, can be taken seriously. I hope the Taoiseach takes up the opportunity in debate to clear up that impression. The Green Party supports many aspects of this Bill.

We are concerned about the Bill's provisions relating to the ombudsman commission and the joint committees, but the legislation can and should be improved. The philosophy underpinning policing should be the subject of ongoing debate. The Bill plays a role in this regard but the debate should not cease once it has been passed.

We are well served by our police force and we are probably better served in this regard than other countries, but that does not mean complacency should set in when things go wrong within the force. Unfortunately, many things are going wrong, even among the junior ranks, which are not being responded to appropriately. The Government, particularly the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, should demonstrate greater political courage in tackling these issues to ensure proper public confidence.

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