Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)

I welcome the Bill. It purports to re-examine the administration of our police force. It is timely to update the administration of justice and policing in every country on a regular basis. The original legislation in this respect dates back to 1925. There have been many changes in Ireland in the intervening period, including in the area of crime. I listened to many of the contributions and people tend to stand in awe of some of the horrific crimes that have taken place and the surge in anti-social behaviour, disorderly conduct etc.

Two issues come to mind. First, it is necessary to have the people's confidence in the administration of justice. They must be on the side of the law and must see that the administration of justice, prevention and detection is open, even-handed, transparent and in accordance with the law. A number of arrests took place in certain parts of the country after a recent festive weekend. I do not know whether that information is true or false as the number of such incidents tends to be exaggerated. We should never kill the butterfly with the sledgehammer. If something must be done, do it, but do not exceed what is needed.

I think back to about 20 years ago, to the time Jack Charlton's famous "army" travelled all over the world and was hailed as a jovial bunch of friendly, law-abiding citizens who, according to themselves, were able to drink everybody else under the table while remaining friendly and courteous. This was one of the new wonders of the world, but I do not know where it has gone in the meantime. Without any shadow of a doubt, there is now total disrespect for authority, other people's property and attempts to suggest that people stay within their own areas without imposing their ways and wills on other citizens.

We have all encountered residents in local authority and other estates who, having appealed to people who are young and not so young to be a little quieter and so on, receive abuse. Many people who have lived all their lives in residential areas now want to leave, to be transferred, as they cannot live there any longer. That is a sad reflection on our society and on the way we have become. Regardless of the supposed Celtic tiger, a little bit of respect for the rights of others and law and order goes a long way. This Bill may deal with this matter.

However, I worry that we rush for more legislation every time there is a crisis in the justice area. This presupposes that the existing legislation is incapable or insufficient to deal with the job, but that is untrue. The oldest way out in the book is to say when something goes wrong, "why do we not have more legislation?" Legislation does not enforce the law. That is a matter for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. It is not useful for Ministers to say, as is the habit in this House, they have no responsibility over an area and that it is a matter for someone else. We have devolved responsibility to a series of people to such an extent that eventually no one will have responsibility. The roots of many of our problems can be found in this practice. No one expects the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, to get involved in the day-to-day running of the business, such as transferring people, but when something goes wrong the Minister is bound to his responsibility. He must call in senior Garda officers immediately and ask them what is happening.

In the past few months there was a major robbery in Belfast that should have set off alarm bells all over this country. The Minister should have called in all senior police officers and laid down certain guidelines in the circumstances arising from that robbery and the likelihood of others taking place. Two or three more occurred in the meantime, yet nothing happened. Only a week ago, in the face of another such atrocity, the Minister finally decided to call in the Garda Síochána and private security firms to discuss the matter with them.

I do not know what he was thinking about for the past two or three months — this is not a political point but a fact of life — but if there was a real intention to do anything about this matter, it would have been done then. As soon as the first of these robberies took place, it was well known that there would be more and that the same technique would be used, and so it happened. Why was something not done about this? The production of legislation is only a camouflage in these circumstances. It does nothing, good, bad or indifferent, other than act as a pretence of going through the motions.

The daily escalation of gun crimes, organised crime, drug-related crimes, paramilitary crime, money laundering, racketeering and protectionism in recent years is unacceptable. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform used to tell the House that he knew what he knew and he saw what he saw, that he had the information, but if he had all this information, why did he not do something about it? What was tying his hands? I am tired of listening to the excuse "My hands are tied, I can do nothing about these things." It is about time somebody started to take responsibility. That simply means the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform taking responsibility and giving directions and instructions and not being afraid to stand over them. That is important.

If what happened here occurred in a banana republic, one would excuse it by saying it was a banana republic. We do not have the bananas except to skid on them from time to time. The major heists we have seen would put the professionals of bygone years in Chicago to shame because those here do a more professional job and with impunity. We have an unarmed police force, which is good although it has its disadvantages. I heard noises recently in the undergrowth to the effect that legally held guns were about to be monitored and that more restrictions were to be introduced on how they should be stored and dealt with. It would be much better if the authorities were employed looking after the illegal guns which are used regularly. What really took the biscuit a few weeks ago was when an unfortunate bar employee was shot with a sawn-off shotgun. It was reported in the newspapers that the situation was not life-threatening. Whoever wrote that a volley from a sawn-off shotgun was not life-threatening did not know what they were talking about.

There are no situations in which a sawn-off shotgun or a shotgun is discharged other than in life-threatening situations. How many people have lost their lives already? How many people have lost limbs? Not so long ago a well-known publican in this city lost a limb as a result of such an attack. Will somebody do something about the use of guns and violent crime? A proper sentence must be imposed, even if it must be a mandatory one. People do not take out a sawn-off shotgun to comb their hair or stir their tea but rather to blow somebody's head off which they do on a regular basis. It is about time we copped on, stopped pussy-footing around and did something about this issue. Something can be done if there is a will. If there is no will or if the Minister is afraid he will upset somebody, then that is a different ball game and he should tell us that. Unless something serious is done about gun crime, it will get worse. The introduction of this Bill will in no way affect it.

I have tabled a series of parliamentary questions over recent years to the Minister and his predecessor on money laundering, the laundering of drug related money and the proceeds of robberies. I have also asked about the number of organised gangs and where they are located. However, the Minister was coy in many of his replies — he is coy much of the time — to the extent that he said it was almost impossible to assess the size of the criminal fraternity in terms of organised gangs and that it would not be possible to establish how many operate as a unit and as independent entities. I find that very hard to believe. Almost every time we read a newspaper we read about somebody who is known to the Garda and, I presume, to the Minister. Surely the Minister speaks to gardaí and asks them an odd question from time to time. Surely he asks them how many of these people there are and what they are doing.

It appears money-laundering is big business and is working well. I tabled parliamentary questions some time ago to the Minister for Finance on this issue. With quite low interest rates in the banks, in terms of investment in the legitimate marketplace, it is much more lucrative to be involved in money-laundering. Journalists in this city who write about crime seem to know much more about how the system works and how lucrative it is than the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

The Minister is a very nice fellow. I believe he may have injured himself when he swung off that telegraph pole in the course of the last general election and that a low flying aircraft may have buzzed him and disorientated him because, leaving aside his geniality and joviality, he seems to have difficultly addressing the tough issues. He complains about them as if he were a bystander or a pedestrian passing comments on the terrible events that happen under his watch.

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