Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)

: It is North Korea. It is unfair to China when it is trying to co-operate in every other way to associate it with Zimbabwe and North Korea. It is a point of principle with the Chinese and it not about trying to get freedom or to open up, so to speak. However, representatives in the United States take a contrary view. When I was in the United States I was lobbied by every senator and congressman there not to give an inch, to give absolutely nothing to China. Having been involved deeply with this issue during our Presidency of the EU, I am aware that the view of the United States is that it knows there is technology that China cannot get that it has and it does not want China to get it. That is the message I received; I do not believe the message is other than that. The Republicans and Democrats totally agree there should be absolutely no change in this regard and that we should not even be talking to China on these issues. I believe that is an unfair position. I stated that to the President, who did not like to hear it. It is an unfair position and I have said that to China and I will not say something to the contrary.

Deputy Rabbitte asked me about this issue during Question Time some weeks ago. A head of steam has built up on this issue in the United States. I advised the Deputy that I thought the British Presidency would probably roll over on this one, but since then I heard Jack Straw indicate that if the Luxembourgers do not resolve it and if the same party is in government in Britain after the election, or even if it is not, they probably will not do so. The British are taking their lead on this from the United States. That is the way it is falling. If we expect China to engage in dialogue, such a position is unfair. America is opposed to that position and I do not see that changing in the foreseeable future. I could find nobody in America who was open to that position. That gives Members a fair overview.

On the question on Lesotho, we have been supportive of it for a long time. It has been the country to which we have given the largest amount of aid. It has an enormous problem with HIV-AIDS. Its Prime Minister gave me some stark figures, which I am sure gave him no pleasure. In 80% of families there, the father or mother of children under ten, or both, are dead. It is a horrendous problem. There are many programmes being run to help them. Deputy Sargent gave a good example. We send technical people out there, many of whom are working in laboratories there.

Lesotho is not the only country that suffers in this way. We are close to it and try to help it in many ways. There is a strong regional approach in that respect, but the scale of the disease is frightening. Lesotho is very grateful for the resources and people we are providing. The people there are making strides and developments.

A sad development in Lesotho, which I saw five years ago when I was there but unfortunately the situation has got worse rather than better, is that in the mountain regions where traditionally the men go to work in the goldmines and then return home, the situation has got worse. The spread of HIV-AIDS is rampant in the most rural of places. It is a sorry picture. The Deputy and I discussed this at length. We will do whatever we can to help. We are running many programmes there and many developments are taking place. One would like to think that they would change things dramatically, but one would obviously have concerns.

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