Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)

Whatever about past schemes, a process is now in place in regard to the gateways, hubs and regional planning guidelines. With many developments of the past year or two, the developer simply gave the land site as part of the development, which is what should happen. The Deputy is correct in regard to other cases in older developments where this was not part of the overall development. In these cases, the State has not got the sites and people will obviously try to zone the sites to sell them to the State at a higher cost. However, if it was done as part of the regional planning guidelines at the commencement, the State should not pay anything for these sites; it should be part of the overall development. That is happening and there are many good examples of vigilant public representatives of all political parties co-operating to achieve this. This is the way it should be but, unfortunately, guidelines were not in place previously and developers were able to push these developments through, probably by applying pressure, without making much contribution, such as providing some open space. The regional planning guidelines will force that to change.

I accept many of the positive points made in the report of the Institution of Engineers of Ireland. We have invested hundreds of millions of euro more than was planned in the national development plan, yet there are areas where we are behind. The institution correctly identifies some of these areas. Where did the money go? In many cases, it was eaten up due to under estimation, changes to the design of projects, cost inflation and also engineer's inflation. Many of these factors have caused resources to be used up and, therefore, we are behind in some areas.

In other cases, however, we have gone beyond the national development plan. For example, the multi-annual envelopes for 2005 to 2009 will see approximately €33.4 billion invested in the capital programme, which must be factored in. However, the institution makes positive suggestions.

A section of the National Treasury Management Agency is considering the issue of public private partnership. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, has, to his credit, given much time since the budget to consideration of this area. He is considering changes to structures and spent a whole day with people involved in PPP, listening to their cases and to what they think is wrong, to find if there is some other way we can make the system work.

With regard to some major projects, I have tried to achieve private sector engagement but it is not easy. Some say the process does not work and when one tries to get the private sector to organise a major project, one does not get the feeling the sector is clear on the idea. Some projects around Dublin city would be ideal if the private sector was prepared to take them over, for example, the completion by tunnel of the M50 going south. This project would probably cost well over €1 billion if the private sector wanted to take it up, and it would not go wrong if it wanted it for 30 or 40 years. However, the private sector tends to pull away from these projects.

The State will never be able to complete all of these projects. Therefore, we must find some imaginative way of involving the pension fund in this. The Minister, Deputy Cowen, is working on this at present.

The private sector has become involved in the M50 project and some other projects. However, it should take the really big money. We will not need the pension fund money for 20 to 25 years. My view, given the demographics, is that we will not need it for far longer. I do not understand how, on one side, some say we will need it in the years 2025 to 2030 and, on the other side, some say there will be 1 million extra people at that time. I do not believe this doomsday scenario will happen.

We should be able put aside more of this money. The pension fund managers will invest the resources but it must be a private sector driven project. I have yet to see someone coming forward with a vehicle that will lead to this. However, having listened to what the people say they need, the Minister, Deputy Cowen, is reconsidering the matter.

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