Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)

If the wives of the Deputies who spoke tonight had made those contributions they would have made more significant points. That the busiest Sainsburys store in Europe is the one in Newry says something about how shoppers flood across the Border in search of more reasonable prices than those available in their own towns. Dunnes Stores recently refused to appear before the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business to explain why consumers are charged more for groceries in their shops in the Republic than in the North. It is ridiculous that one of the largest supermarket chains in the country is not prepared to justify its prices to public representatives. This is symptomatic of the public's inability to ask questions of major retailers, and I hope this debate will seek to redress part of that problem.

Dunnes Stores argued about its unhappiness with elements of the groceries order regarding below cost selling and so justified its refusal to come before the committee. If Dunnes Stores has a problem with legislation it should have been at the committee. Instead, the company, which holds almost a quarter of the grocery market used this as an excuse to explain why products for sale in its shops are 20% cheaper in the North than here. The groceries order introduces such a level of regulation into the sector that it prevents supermarkets entering price wars whereby below cost selling would surely be the death knell for local independent traders who would be unable to compete with large supermarkets. The committee concluded that if those supermarkets had carte blanche to slash prices the prices would not stay at that level. Once competition was eliminated they would return to the old rip-off Ireland. We were all agreed on that. The history of how they operate does not inspire us with confidence. That is the problem with the groceries order.

The Tánaiste, Deputy Harney, was one of the most fervent advocates for the abolition of the groceries order, yet for seven years she was Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment and did nothing about it. Similarly with the Personal Injuries Assessment Board, the report was left on her desk to be implemented when she took office seven years ago but she coat-tailed it and did nothing until, under pressure from the Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business, she had to set up the board.

Large supermarkets argue that insurance costs, wages, commercial rates and recycling charges contribute to the prices they charge, yet insurance costs have fallen recently, a point on which I agree with the Minister of State, and they should fall further when the Personal Injuries Assessment Board is established. While these retailers continually explain why they cannot introduce lower prices, they never tell us about the difference in the price. We have yet to get to that and it is part of the ongoing investigation. They are quickly running out of excuses for charging exorbitant prices. Just as it did with insurance, the committee will continue to ask the questions and will eventually get answers.

It also appears that changes are to be made to the retail planning guidelines and I am completely opposed to that. I have a friend who has a small supermarket in a local community. He has told me that he is quite happy with his share of the market. It is not Dunnes Stores, Tesco or Aldi, but he is happy as someone will always forget a pint of milk, bread, butter or something else. It is a drop-in service. If we bring in huge supermarkets on the outskirts of towns to which the motorway leads and we have to shop in these out of town experiences, then my friend will not survive. If I forget to buy a pint of milk, he will not be there. That is not good for the community. The country has to be about community as well as the economy. We must also take much more than low prices into consideration. Issues of food quality and traceability are becoming important, just as other matters such as community, choice and availability are central to the debate. If people are even offered very low prices, then there is a sector of society that simply wants a particular product. Such people will go for quality, presentation and will pay more, so it is not just about price.

More needs to be done in the area of consumer affairs than what is contained in this Bill. However, it is a start and an effort to introduce change in an area that badly requires improved consumer protection. Supermarkets should be made to display and sell sweets from an area of the shop, which can be avoided if one wishes to do so. This would be a great help to parents. I remember a campaign about this when Gay Byrne was still on the radio. I think Marks & Spencers decided to take sweets away from the till. That did not last long. Whether it is a large supermarket or a corner shop, consumers cannot get near the till as they are surrounded by sweets. It is very difficult for parents to continue to say no to their children. Parents have enough hassle doing the shopping and yet they are faced with a barrage of pressure at a time when they are most vulnerable. That is exactly why sweets are displayed at that point. They should be sold from a different part of the shop. It is done with alcohol, so why can it not be done with sweets? The sweets display is in front of us and the newspaper on the counter tells us that the biggest killer in the future will be obesity, yet we cannot avoid the sweets.

Why is meat dearer in supermarkets than in small butcher shops? It is this kind of comparison that consumers need. Why is it so hard to find out why food costs more in the Republic of Ireland than 100 miles away in Northern Ireland? We have more agencies to protect the consumer and to ensure that there are no barriers to competition, yet we are less controlled and less informed than ever. Why do we not have individually priced items on our supermarket shelves? The Minister told us tonight that products have to be displayed by weight, volume and everything else. Why can we not have it on the item? Imagine a situation where each time the Minister goes into a shop to buy a shirt, a coat or whatever he has no idea what it will cost until he goes to the till and gets a shock. Why are items on supermarket shelves not individually priced? I am always amazed when surveys claim, for example, that only ten out of 166 Deputies know the price of a litre of milk. If the price was on it, we might all know it.

There is no better enforcer of consumer rights than consumers themselves. Consumers have no idea what their basket will cost them until they get to the till. It usually comes as a surprise because it has usually gone up. Decisions by Government, its agents, regulations including VAT increases, price increases and State regulated goods and services like electricity and telecoms are said to have added more than 8% to the rate of inflation over the last five years. If the people charged with protecting the consumer are allowing the market to behave in such a way, then the phrase associated with shopping in Ireland is now "rip-off". That is the word on the ground, but the word from the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism is that it is all in our minds. We will fork out more of our hard earned cash this Christmas, but more of us are paying by credit card and hoping that by the time that Bill comes, someone somewhere will have done something about interest rates on credit cards, which is another rip-off. When we do this, we should think about the Minister for Arts, Sport, and Tourism and keep repeating to ourselves that it is all in our mind. The next time a Fianna Fáil or PD Deputy comes to our door and tells us that they will rein in their pals and bring inflation under control in order to allow us to feed our family, buy a house and do the things we should be able to do, we should keep saying to ourselves that it is all in our mind.

I welcome this Bill. As it is an Opposition Bill, I know it will not be accepted, although I hope someone listens and recognises that a country should be more about community than economy. People are very hard pressed and any help they can get from legislators will be welcomed.

See this speech in context