Cecilia Keaveney (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)

I am pleased to contribute to the debate on this Bill. While I am chair of the Joint Committee on Arts, Sport, Tourism, Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs I speak from my own perspective. It is fascinating to discuss the balance of progress and the past, particularly when it relates to the building of a motorway. I would like to have a motorway earmarked for the north-west in order that we could begin to address the question of EIS or archaeological sites when, I have no doubt, a few issues would have to be dealt with. I would like to be in a position where I would be discussing issues of archaeological finds, planning and the location of a motorway into the north-west.

Deputy Durkan claimed that finding archaeological sites was a recent phenomenon and suggested that technology should be ahead and able to identify such sites so that the area could be circumvented. In a sense it is like what we do everyday. We try to find a simple answer to any problem that crops up. I may be wrong, but I think the population here pre the famine was greater than it is today. I assume, therefore, because there were quite a number of people living in Ireland in the past, there are many significant places, old cloghans and archaeological finds. It is suggested that there are only certain areas where will be a find sites of some significance. Perhaps we have to do quite a bit of digging before we find the significant places. Perhaps in our digging we will find many less significant finds. The question arises as to what defines significant value and what defines something of heritage value. How can we presume to know this until the top layer of soil is taken off and we find something and begin to evaluate? If there were only particular areas, perhaps technology would be able to provide the answer but life is not usually as easy as that. In everything we try to do difficult decisions have to be made and the unexpected always crops up.

The amount of money lost on this issue is of concern. Out of that concern there has also been a significant number of finds over two years by 131 archaeologists. Those finds must be of benefit to our generation and future generations. I hope the information gleaned will be available on site or will be easily accessible to people.

The reason I say that is slightly relevant. My grandfather spent time in Ballykinlar camp in County Down in 1920-21. I tried to find some information about it and came across a lady in Dublin who had photographs of every hut in one of the camps in Ballykinlar but she did not know who the people were and was looking for people who had relations to come and identify them in order that she could put names to the faces. My grandfather was in a separate camp from the camp for which she had all the photographs which left me upset. The point she made to me was that she did not want to give the photographs to a museum to be put into a drawer or an attic and become even less alive than they are to her and her immediate family. With regard to any of these archaeological sites that are dug out, if an item is deemed sufficiently important to be taken out of the clay it should be important enough to be made available to the public. A web page is as good a way as any other. We are talking about technology being available to identify things. Computers are the way forward in terms of giving people access. The lady said she had all the information but would give it only on the basis that it would become a live piece of history for people to see and that it would not be put away. I hope archaeological finds become live to our children and future generations. We need to be able to show the reasons heritage is important.

Given that the Bill is particular to Carrickmines, I will touch on the issues it raises, namely, progress and destruction. The word "balance" is easy to say but hard to achieve because generally people are entrenched in their view on one side or the other. It is difficult to set out the steps to work toward achieving a balance. This Bill and the projects to which it relates shows up the juxtaposition of the right to keep what is historically important safe and yet advance the potential offered by development today. The challenge is to balance both, which the Minister is striving to do.

People have been critical of the planning of the Carrickmines project, but that is in the past and we are here to deal with the situation as it is. The protection of the site has been the primary concern of Government and legislation has been put in place. While a certain amount of finance must be allocated to meet the provisions of the Bill, what is equally important is that the community has a role in deciding what is important and what should be done with the sites in their locality.

The La Trinidad Valencera was found very close to Greencastle and much of the treasure from it, such as the cannon, was sent to Dublin, even though there is a maritime museum in Greencastle. It would have been much better to have housed the cannon in Greencastle if the facilities existed to keep it, and the community believes that they did and do. Decentralisation is a live topic, but why are all the archaeological finds centralised in Dublin? I chair the Joint Committee on Arts, Sport, Tourism, Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs and I believe that all the finds in a locality should be, where possible, housed there because it is a selling point for the area.

The community in Greencastle is working with the owners of the castle, which has national monument status and which I hope will come into State hands in the near future. The community wishes to ensure that those who access the castle without realising the danger to themselves or to the physical structure of the monument will in future be behind some form of protective barrier and will learn the story of the castle from the signs around it. The community wishes to set out a plan so that as manpower and resources become available, the castle would be restored. It is all very well to read the story of the castle, but it comes alive when one can point to a building and show how people lived from excavations.

Too often we are not sufficiently interested in what happened in our locality, and there is plenty of history if we explored it. In primary school, history should be a subject where children are given opportunities to reach out, touch and see what is tangible in their locality. I mention the castle in Greencastle because it is live issue and I wish the Department well in securing it as a State property. I hope the Department will leave the door open to the community because, in the Border areas, communities may access funding to expedite works to make the castle safe. No door should be closed.

It is important to take all the different interests into account. In the case of Carrickmines, where the State is trying to progress a motorway, it is important to weigh up what is in the public interest. I know the Minister has made a decision to try to facilitate the construction of the south-eastern motorway and, at the same time, the main archaeological elements of the site would be protected either by record or in situ. The importance of what existed is recognised but we must also see to the future.

The Bill also provides that road schemes with an approved environment impact statement setting out archaeological mitigation do not need further licences, but the Minister may issue directions relating to the mitigation, which is a procedure for dealing with newly discovered national monuments which had not been identified in the environmental impact statement. That balance is very important.

In section 2, the word "works" is defined as including development works of national, regional or local importance. To define what is important is very difficult because one may define it in the national context, but an issue of local importance may not have the same relevance at national level. From where I am coming, I am glad the definition incorporates works of local importance.

Section 3 clarifies the role of the Minister. The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, the Department of Finance, the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism and possibly other Departments have some role in property-environmental issues. When I wished to raise an issue of marine tourism, I approached the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources and was told to approach the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism. There is a need for an interdepartmental agency to ensure the best service when two or more Departments are involved. I would like to see greater co-operation between Departments. All those involved would have an interest in the issues, but do people have the opportunity to talk to each other?

Section 5 replaces section 14 of the principal Act. In the single-tier process, the balance is between people having an input and not all people having responsibilities. The obligation on the Minister to consult the National Museum of Ireland is important, as is the increase in the penalty from €62,000 to €10 million for interfering with a national monument without the necessary consent. It is very important that the Minister's consent is not required for works affecting a national monument where works are connected with an approved development because it avoids duplication. If a road has undergone a certain process surely it should not have to go through that process again. This raises the question of whether the first process is adequate but it should not be necessary to take the same course of action twice. I welcome section 5 which amends section 14 of the 1930 Act whereby, regarding national monuments newly discovered as part of the road development but not anticipated in the environmental impact statement, An Bord Pleanála can determine if the changes arising constitute a material alteration or are less or more significant. Reporting of the objects found under section 6 echoes my earlier comment, namely, we must have a situation whereby if items are to be found and are of significance people must be able to see them and they must continue to be a living issue.

For years in Donegal we did not make much effort in regard to listed buildings. When I asked why allocations for listed buildings were so small I was told the lack of numbers on the register meant we got a proportional allocation nationally but we have made progress on this. People have mixed views as they discover the limitations associated with listing such as curtailment of a planning application in the vicinity, or restriction on the type of adaptations that can be made, or the definition of the type of material that can be used in house improvement. This reopens the question of balance. If some people must maintain their property in a more costly fashion than others by using specific materials, not the cheapest materials, they need support.

This may not be relevant, but the thatching grants have been very important and while one cannot describe a thatched cottage as a national monument, it shows us what life was like many years ago and where we came from. Even though the number of thatched houses is diminishing they are very significant and remind us of our past from the time of the Famine to the present. Therefore, it is important to provide the thatching grant. While they are diminishing in my area, their significance is growing. We could do more to preserve what is there. We should also look at the clochans and small places like Ballymagaraghy and my own area, where as families have died out others have moved out. We should try to make history live.

I have mentioned the Greencastle Castle, and another site of local interest is General Montgomery's home in my town, yet it is falling into rack and ruin. Many would say the State should take it over but if we took over every significant building from where would come the funding to buy or maintain it? That is one of the anomalies in this debate. We are very interested in what lies under the clay that has not been discovered, yet there is so much above the clay that is already visible and is being lost every day to the elements. It is difficult to see Malin Head not being exploited as the most northerly point on the island but it good to see that the Donagh Cross has been taken away and improved and brought back to Carndonagh. I would like to see more done at the Grianan Ailigh particularly with regard to access for the disabled. Many positive things are happening with regard to signage for many of these places. There is a schoolhouse in Cooley just outside Moville and a graveyard. CE schemes have played a role in preserving places such as St. Mura's graveyard in Fahan that is linked to Florence Nightingale, and many other sites. We must look after what is above the ground as well as what is below. It is a very difficult balance but this Bill will assist in achieving it. As Deputy Durkan said, one could speak for a long time on this topic and I am glad another Bill on it will be produced before the end of the year.

See this speech in context