Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)

The Minister and others on that side of the House have been saying there is a problem. He should tell us what the problem is. We listened this morning to the masters of the maternity hospitals clearly indicate there was no problem, and that the problem could be dealt with by way of legislation. If another problem was created by the Government by way of the Good Friday Agreement, why are the major players in Northern Ireland concerned about it? Why are the people who called for changes to the Good Friday Agreement, which was allegedly sacrosanct, suddenly silent? Why have the people who worked for the Agreement over a number of years expressed concerns now? Are they all wrong?

Yesterday morning, the Fine Gael leader, Deputy Kenny, together with other Opposition leaders, laid out clearly our policy on this issue. They said if there is a problem they want to help to resolve it, but they need to know what the problem is and quantify it. It is not just a case of saying a problem exists which everyone knows about. If so, let us hear about it and quantify it because it has not yet been quantified.

I referred earlier to governance by decree. Yesterday the Minister referred to Roman times. I am not surprised he mentioned Roman times coming fresh from his aerobatics success prior to the last general election, the fact that everything appears to happen outside this House, that there appears to be a general appeal to some amorphous group we cannot determine before Government takes decisions, notwithstanding the existence of spin doctors, advisers and consultants, and that the Government has its finger in various communications and media pies. We hear phrases like, "We know what the people are saying". Do we know? Whatever else may be said about the Irish people, in the final analysis they are very fair-minded. The Government must be careful that they do not get wind of what it is at and come to their own conclusions. Far from giving the Government the resounding mandate it anticipates on the back of the local and European elections, it may well get the kind of response some politicians and others in the United States got around the time of the American Civil War. I see the Minister grinning. The impossible happened then. It was presumed that the war would proceed in a particular direction until the President decided to abolish slavery. Nothing was further from people's minds at the time, but he did it and won the day.

We should have more time to debate an issue such as this. I listened to the former Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O'Donoghue, yesterday as he worked himself into a considerable frenzy. I presume he did so with some cause since he was the Minister who made promises of zero tolerance, among other things. I remember that, but I am not sure this is part of it. However, some of the things he said yesterday contrasted dramatically with what he said in Opposition. On 19 October 1995, he said:

It has often been said that Ireland is the most difficult country to enter and the most expensive to leave, a sentiment not without some justification. While the remainder of Europe embraces a multi-cultural ethos without great difficulty and while some people might be uncomfortable with it, it must be said that Ireland has remained in the Middle Ages with regard to the granting of asylum and the declaration of refugee status to people exiled from their countries of origin out of fear of persecution or discrimination of one form or another.

Yesterday, the Minister gave figures regarding births in this country as an addendum. The top five nationalities for non-national mothers in the two maternity hospitals in Dublin in 2003 were as follows: Nigerian, 1,550; British, 677; Romanian, 469; Chinese, 239; and Filipino, 235. This morning we heard on "Morning Ireland" that most of those people are resident and working here. The Minister is shaking his head. If they are not working here, it is because they are not allowed to do so or because they have not had their application for refugee status processed so far — an administrative failure on the part of the Government.

I mentioned the Progressive Democrats in their former incarnation when they used to speak their minds freely. I was disappointed by Deputy Fiona O'Malley's contribution. I listened with interest to the comments outside the House from Deputy O'Donnell, which were in keeping with what she said previously. On 19 October 1995, she said in reference to the Refugee Bill 1995, "The Progressive Democrats warmly welcome this legislation." This legislation was dismissed yesterday by the Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue, who seemed to have forgotten he had supported it then. In the House yesterday he suggested this was the first legislation dealing with immigration to which he could append his name. Deputy O'Donnell continued, "as we welcomed the previous Bill [the Refugee Bill 1994] when it was before the House prior to the collapse of the last Government". That last Government involved Fianna Fáil and the Labour Party, and I am not sure it was Fianna Fáil that promoted the Bill. She continued, "It is regrettable that it has taken a modern State such a long time to put in place appropriate procedures, in line with our human rights commitments under international conventions." It goes on from there. I was very interested to hear her comments.

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