Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)

It is important that the two-day debate on this issue is separate from the debate on other issues of Dáil business. It is a very important debate and it is being misconstrued in many ways by the failure of the Government to offer leadership to the country in facing this very difficult issue.

My fundamental point is that the Government has failed to consult other parties on the issues and timing of this referendum and has failed to listen to the views of Members on this side of the House and other eminent people outside this House, who are involved with refugees and immigrants. At the core of the debate is a fundamental decision we have to make as a nation. The problems with the Government's attitude is that it is pushing ahead without that consultation and consent, North and South. I watched a recent appearance by Mark Durkan on the television. He was giving his views on the consultation he apparently had with some lawyer or official from the Department of Foreign Affairs over dinner at a restaurant in Derry. That is not good enough, given the divisive nature of racism and the fundamental nastiness of racist people in this country. They are in all political parties and in none. Their allegiances are across the board. We need to have this debate during a period when the focus will be on the issues, not the individuals.

To hold this referendum on the same day as the local elections will cloud the issue and, more importantly and sadly, will give a voice to those who are most racist. There are people who will tell the candidates: "I will vote for you if you will stop this immigration and stop black people and people from outside the European Union coming to this country". Some people are not prepared to admit it but I have met a significant minority who hold that view. Holding the referendum on the same day as the local elections gives a mandate to racism or racist views.

The Government has failed to offer true leadership on this question. It should nominate a special date, even the date of the presidential election, to hold a number of referenda. Last week a report which was well publicised and well supported was produced by the All-Party Committee on the Constitution. It deals with private property. Why not have a referendum on that important issue, which has all-party support, on the same day as the referendum on this issue? Would that not be the most rational and responsible thing to do? Would it not receive greater support from across the country and from all groups and parties? The Government has failed to do that. It is a failure of leadership on the part of the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste. I listened to the recent interview with the Tánaiste, Deputy Harney, on "Morning Ireland". She was really snookered for a reply when she was asked if she had consulted with people about this issue. She clearly had not. That is where the Government is wrong and where it has failed. That is the reason this process is going the wrong way.

Why do people want to come to this country? Why do they need to come here? What is so attractive about modern Ireland that they want to be part of it? It is because Ireland is a wealthy nation and provides the people who live and work here with a wonderful standard of living compared with that in Third World countries. If we were Nigerians or lived in Afghanistan or eastern Europe, we would want to be part of this society. We would especially want our children, if we could get into this country, to have the future this country can offer them.

This does not just apply to Ireland. This is a European issue. Much has been made of the British Government's support for what this Government is doing. However, what Europe is saying, in effect, is that it wants to close its borders and does not want any more people coming into Europe because of its economy and special needs. If one country is out of step, it has to change its way. The attitude is that we are all together on this issue.

Fundamental to this issue are the problems of poverty, Third World countries and selfish capitalism, in the historical sense, taking everything and not looking after the poor of the rest of the world. What the European Union ought to be doing and what this Government should support, and people such as Deputy O'Donnell in her capacity as a Minister of State was particularly good on these issues, is investing outside the European Union to make those countries wealthier, give stability to their economies and generate equity. We should treat them in such a way that they can develop their economies so migrants will not have to come to Europe or Ireland because their economies will be stable and progressive and their native countries will be attractive places in which to remain. That is the fundamental philosophical issue that is missing from this debate. It is something we should address as members of the European Union but the Government is failing to do that. It is failing to look at the big picture.

The Deputy from Limerick spoke about what he called "global citizenship". There is global citizenship. The news that bombs went off in Basra in Iraq today is known all over the world. We are aware that Diego Maradona was sick after going to a football match because we saw the report on the television two days ago. We all know about his condition today because we are citizens of the world.

Inequalities in wealth and health cause people to migrate and to come to this country. Much has been made of the babies of non-nationals being born in our fine maternity hospitals. Only the negative aspect of those births is being considered. The attitude is that it is awful more babies are being born to people from other countries. We forget, however, that the birth rate in Ireland is falling. Irish citizens do not have enough children to fill the jobs that already exist and that will be available in the future. Let us face that reality.

The other reality relates to health care. With more people coming to this country, bringing with them difficulties and diseases that do not exist in this country at present, there is a greater need for better and more specialists operating in our maternity hospitals to improve their services. One can argue that the 700 women who came from the UK to have their babies in Ireland is one thing but the Russian woman coming from Moscow with a great deal of money is something different but it means we have a world class maternity service which people want to use. Part of that has been driven by the arrival of immigrants.

What about the immigrants in this country, whether they are refugees, asylum seekers or whatever? They live in places such as the Butlins holiday camp or the houses built by speculators which the health boards can afford to rent for them. What is the problem? Is it a problem with race or with colour? I do not believe it is. These people cannot work so Irish people see them and their children on the streets. They are not allowed to work, yet there are labour shortages in the economy.

Last year approximately 50,000 work permits were granted by the Department for non-nationals to work here. What are we doing with the immigrants and refugees who are already living here? We are chartering aeroplanes with 30 or 40 gardaí on them and returning these people to Nigeria or eastern Europe. Where is the sense in that? Surely it would be more sensible to look at the qualifications, skills and knowledge of the people who are already in this country and match them to the job vacancies. If these people can give our country something unique and special and if they can fulfil our skills needs, why not let them stay? What is wrong with the Government that it is not considering this? I challenge the Minister to change his view and to look again at this issue.

I listened with respect to the Minister of State's speech. I understand and appreciate the work he and his colleagues are doing in Wexford. However, we should do more work on this. We have a black and white attitude; we are not putting enough thought into it. I can give an example. A gentleman from Romania came to live in Drogheda. He was a wonderful musician who had been a member of the state orchestra in his native country. He and his family lived in Mosney and became part of the community. The children went to the local school. What happened to them? The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform said they had to leave. I appealed the decision, as did others, but the community in Drogheda lost the best musician it ever had. He was a professional musician and wonderfully committed to our community. It is not purely a matter of economics. There are social and cultural issues to be considered as well. How much do we do in Ireland to celebrate all the different traditions and communities represented in our society? How constructive are we in pushing forward anti-racism policies and the view that all the people who are here are welcome, along with their cultures, and that we want them to share their wealth and their heritage with us as much as possible?

We are not looking at the big picture. We are listening to the whispered voices in the back rooms, the muttered words in the pub when a black person goes by. We are listening to the wrong voices. We are not making the right decisions. We are making decisions not because they are morally right but because they are politically expedient.

These decisions are narrow and mean-minded. We must also examine our own history, that of the Irish people from the 16th and 17th centuries when the Irish nation began to emerge. Is it not true that for generations our citizens left our shores, went to the UK, Europe and America, were welcomed there and became part of those societies? America then was a bit like Ireland is now: it needed more people. It did not have enough qualified people to fill its jobs and it welcomed those from all nations. It is a much bigger country than Ireland. The Irish people who emigrated sent back the money to send Pat and Mary to school. They used it to look after their sick parents and grandparents. What are the immigrants in Ireland doing today? They are doing exactly the same.

In this debate I would like us to see the bigger picture. We need a better country, a better Government, more leadership, more consensus and more nation-building. We do not have these things and we will not get them. That is why some very negative thoughts are being expressed during this debate. This does not need to happen and it will not if the Government will reconsider its decision.

I will return to the issue of timing. What we want is consensus. What we are entitled to is calm, reasoned, measured debate such as that taking place over these two days.

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