Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)

The first question Deputy Kenny asked me was about my use of the words "no delay has arisen". I did not use those words for any particular reason. When I made a statement to the tribunal on 27 January 1999, I gave all the details in that case. Most of the details, some five or six points, I gave in full — the letter from Martin Macken, former general secretary, to Pádraig Flynn; the minutes of the meeting in the Department; and the letter between John Wilson and Ray MacSharry. The only one I could not give in full because there was no minute of it was one of the meetings where Mr. Gilmartin called in one day to three or four different Ministers. I checked whether there was a minute but none was taken and obviously I was not able to put the minute of that meeting on the record. That remains the position. There was no minute of that meeting. All of the other points I put either wholly on the record or certainly provided a sufficient amount of the detail to allow anyone to follow them.

In recent weeks and months the tribunal, in getting ready for the module that is to start in the spring, has been writing seeking information and the information it was seeking from the secretariat was not only in reference to the issues and the letters I mentioned but also to the files. They wanted the back-up files. The files were in other Departments; they were not in the Department of the Taoiseach and the secretariat just put them in touch. All of the references were references I had given in the substantial detail of those documents. At the time I had not given the actual documents but I had read them into the record. Our solicitors could have put on the back-up but they did not; they gave the entire document. When I was asked to do discovery in recent times, I did everything I could think of because the point was made to me that I had to do everything so I did those documents. I did many other things too. They were not of great relevance but they might be to the investigation so I covered all those matters.

On the question, and I accept Deputy Kenny is not saying this, that I am hiding behind tribunals, the reason I defend myself in this respect is that I do not hide behind tribunals. Deputy Rabbitte is correct. I did not think in 1997 that it would take all of these years. I cannot respond on one position as I am doing now. I would like to read the full content of those letters and the points but I cannot. I have the eight volumes of letters but I cannot defend myself in this. Perhaps people in the House think I am hiding behind it but the opposite is the case. I cannot use the information. I would like to give the entire eight volumes that I have to the House and make it available to Members because I am not afraid of anything in them, but I am not allowed to do that. The tribunal has emphasised, in its work in this module, that "to infringe the confidentiality of the tribunal is a very serious matter and may render a person liable to prosecution for hindering and obstructing the tribunal". I am up in lights in this because I am the Taoiseach and I had the volumes. I cannot do anything and I am not going to break the tribunal rules but it appears that half the town has the letters. Even from his questioning, it is obvious that people have given the information to Deputy Kenny. There is nothing wrong with that because it is all in the newspapers anyway but I am not allowed to give it or quote from it.

Deputy Joe Higgins and others may think I am hiding behind the tribunals. If this was finished, I could deal with the report. Regardless of what the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform or anybody else said, nobody is happy, nor am I, that issues are outstanding for five or six years with which we cannot deal or where Fianna Fáil cannot get its money back or take action.

Deputy Kenny asked me a straight question about Deputy Cooper-Flynn. Let there be no doubt about the position. I have always said that it is for tribunals of inquiry, following the process of law, to make findings of fact. Everyone is entitled to due process, and my legal people keep telling me why I have to follow due process, but in the event of the tribunal or other inquiry making a final determination of wrongdoing against Deputy Cooper-Flynn, I will have no hesitation in ensuring she will face the sanctions of her party as set out in our rules. That is the position, but she wants to state her position in the House, and she is entitled to that, but it does not mean that anybody is cosy about it.

To reply to what Deputy Kenny said earlier in his contribution, it is not a question of our having done nothing over the past few years. We have brought in new electoral Acts for general and local elections. We have the Prevention of Corruption Acts, the Standards in Public Office Act and we have a tough regime for dealing with Members in regard to everything. We all have to submit all our data, and rightly so. We now have to have accounts available for any donations we get. I agree with all of those requirements but people forget that and say we have been hiding behind tribunals and are doing nothing. We passed eight new statutes in this House which are now law; they are tough laws. We have our own Standards in Public Office Act and all these measures are in place. It is not a question, therefore, that we have not done anything. As politicians, we should not say that because people would be of the view that we did not do anything, and that is not true. I wish these tribunals were over and we could get on with dealing with the remaining issues but that is not the position and, unfortunately, I am constrained. That does not mean we have done nothing. I have had to deal with issues in my own party — I am not answerable to the House on that — and we also put matters on a legislative basis. We have taken tough action but in the meantime I am bound by the rules of the tribunal. This House has set up tribunals and it is not good enough for a Deputy of the House — I refer to Deputy Joe Higgins — to say we are hiding behind the tribunals. We set them up. I am duty bound to abide by them. I do not know how many people but——

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