Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 9 May 2024
Public Accounts Committee
Business of Committee
9:00 am
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The public business before us this afternoon is minutes, correspondence, work programme and any other business. The minutes of the meeting of 2 May 2024 have been circulated to the committee. Do any members wish to raise any issues? Are the minutes agreed? Agreed. As usual, they will be published on the committee's webpage.
We do not have any accounts or financial statements this week, so we will move on to correspondence. As previously agreed, items that are not flagged for discussion at this meeting will be dealt with in accordance with the proposed actions that have been circulated and decisions taken by the committee in relation to correspondence are recorded in the committee's meetings and published on the committee's webpage.
Four items have been flagged for discussion under category B, that is, correspondence from Accounting Officers and Ministers and follow up to PAC meetings. No. R2563 B is from Mr. David Gunning, chief executive of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board. It is dated 26 April 2024 and it follows up and provides information in relation to the implementation of previous recommendations made by the committee. It is proposed to note and publish this item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed.
I will make a brief comment on the update they gave us. I note they got the chair of the health committee wrong. Deputy Sean Crowe is the Chair. They got the two of us mixed up. Anyway that is not a big deal but the cost rise of over €75 million is a big deal. The correspondence will be useful as a reference point when they are before the committee in the very near future, before the summer recess. Page 3 contains a table which sets out some figures. The cost just seems to keep escalating. Does any other member wish to comment on it?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes. Some way down the page it says that the main contractor has now set out its programme for completion of the construction and fit-out of the hospital by Q4 of 2024, followed by an operation and commissioning period of at least six months for Children's Health Ireland, CHI. I am not keen to just accept that. I would like to see it. We should request that we see the programme for completion. It is worthwhile writing to them to ask for it.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, we will request it. It would be useful to have it along with the letter before they appear before the committee. Thank you for that. We will note and publish it.
No. R2573 B is from Ms Stephanie Redmond, private secretary to the Secretary General of the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications. It is dated 30 April 2024 and provides a Q1 update to the committee on the digital connectivity strategy. It is proposed to note and publish this item. Is that agreed? Agreed.
We have raised issues around this a number of times. There is an update in relation to the broadband plan. Delay sanctions totalling €2.1 million were imposed. A performance credit sanction of €52,000 has also been applied under the key performance indicator regime. While it seems progress is being made with the broadband plan, unfortunately, a lot of questions will come up around this because of the design and the type of contract that it is. There is also the involvement of other companies and the fact there are two commercial entities involved. There is the investor and infrastructure belonging to another private company being used and there is a range of private sub-contractors. This is a issue we might revert to later in the year. We have not examined the broadband plan in a long time. I cannot remember when those with responsibility for it were before the committee last. It must have been at least a year and a half or so since they were in along with the Department. It would be worthwhile to schedule a meeting later in the year.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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In the meantime it might be worth writing to them to request updates on progress on the number of properties reached. If there was going to be duplication, there was something in the contract that allowed for them to be paid. I cannot remember what the terminology of it was but if Eircom, for example, were to do an area in the intervention area, it could be compensated for that. It would be worth our while getting an update on those kinds of things. I agree with the Cathaoirleach that we should timetable it for later this year.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It would also be worthwhile to ask not just how many they reach - what they call "pass" - but how many have actually been connected and what is the uptake on it. That is a key question. I found that in many of the areas people have another private provider with a wireless signal. While some people have switched to the fibre broadband connection, a percentage have not. That would be a question worth asking as well.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
The slide now on the screen gives some of that information. It states that by the end of March 2024, 233,000 premises had been passed. This is 41% of the premises in the intervention area. Of those, 75,300 had been connected to the NBP network. This comes out at 32% of the premises passed and they report that the rate exceeds expectations.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Obviously, there is €2.1 million in terms of delays. What timeframe does that cover? Do people remember that penalties were not applied as they got some leeway? I think that was during Covid. We need to ask them, starting from the commencement of the plan, what was promised, what was delivered and were targets set?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, were specific targets set out?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes. We have to see it for ourselves. Were penalties applied or should penalties have been applied?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There were specific targets that were to be passed. The figures supplied indicate that less than one third of what passed is actually connected.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There is 75,274 premises by the end of March.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. It is around 30% so 70% of premises did not take it up, which is an interesting figure.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is 32%.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It is the intervention area. It is not that it is just difficult to get to but, very often, it is very marginal land so it is used for subsistence farming and so on. There is an understanding of that. I would have thought Covid would have changed the dynamics a little bit because people are moving to areas that would not have been favoured before as a result of working from home and so on. I wonder whether they have factored that in.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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On the face of it, it would seem to indicate that a lot of people in the intervention areas were happy with the service that they had and are staying with it. I cannot remember the exact figures from earlier on for the percentage uptake for the first and second years of the scheme but it certainly was not any better than that.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It was.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We are nearly four years in but the roll-out does not seem to have gathered pace. While the scheme has passed nearly 250,000 premises, it is not showing signs of greater take-up by those already-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Most homes are now serviced by it and all businesses nearly will be but the uptake is 32%.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes, but look at the demographics.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Not only that, they may well be older people. The demographic profile differs from cities and towns.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate the urbanites are different but I know what the Deputy means.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Retired people, for example, may be happy enough with what they have and may not want to have another cost. The Cathaoirleach is right. We had several hearings over a couple of weeks way back, and providers said they had a lot of people who are very happy with the service they are getting. The Cathaoirleach may well be right on that as well.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It seems like that. We will put the matter on our wish list. We will try to organise a hearing with them. It will have to be the far side of the summer because our schedule is full until then.
No. R2575B is correspondence from Catherine Martin, the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, dated 30 April 2024, which provides an update to the committee regarding the reviews prepared by the expert advisory committees and the Mazars report into RTÉ. It is proposed that we note and publish this correspondence. Is that agreed? We are happy enough with that.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Obviously we had our own report and made recommendations. Some of our recommendations mirror recommendations made in the two reports. The Mazars report found an additional €674,000 sloshing around. An updated of the legislation relating to the Comptroller and Auditor General is being examined by the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. Where is that at and is it anticipated that the existing legislation will be amended?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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No, generally. It would seem that something would not be put into the Broadcasting Act if it can go into legislation relating to the Comptroller and Auditor General.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
No, the adjustment that would be needed in the Comptroller and Auditor General (Amendment) Act would be an amendment to a Schedule, which can be done by a statutory order in relation to RTÉ. There are many bodies that I have an audit remit under specific legislation, in addition to the 1993 Act.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It was proposed to amend the Broadcasting Act.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We would only need a statutory instrument to add RTÉ.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Right, but that is something the Minister could sign.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Separately, and to bring it under the remit, an amendment to the Broadcasting Act is required..
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The key issue is that the 116 findings from the three reports are covered. Three and four of them fit under some of the 21 recommendations made by this committee. There is the extra cash amounting to more than €670,000, which Deputy Murphy was correct about, but it is time to move on. I want to flag that RTÉ is due to report to us by June with an update on its progress with implementation. I suggest that the committee writes to RTÉ to notify it of that and state that we expect a report by then on our 21 recommendations. We will send our communication to the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, and the new chair of the RTÉ board, Mr. Terence O'Rourke. It should probably be sent to the chair of the RTÉ board, in the first instance, maybe more so than the director general, Mr. Kevin Bakhurst.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There has been a lot of discussion about legislation later in the year. There may well be primary legislation needed for other things. In terms of the audit, that could be done. We certainly recommended that, it has been recommended by others and it has been recommended in this report. There is an acceptance all around that this should happen. That could happen now and if that happened within the next few weeks before the summer recess, would that impact on next year's audit?
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
I think there would still have to be an amendment to the Broadcasting Act
How quickly that can be put through or whether it should be taken as a stand-alone piece of legislation is not for me to comment on. Once the change is made there would be commencement of a section. It could be that I would become the auditor from that point forward. It could be as early as January 2025 that I would become the auditor in respect of the financial statements of 2024. This is technically feasible. Whether it is legislatively programmed within that period is the question.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Irish Water and RTÉ are substantial. The Comptroller and Auditor General now has responsibility for Irish Water.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There is a large body of people in the office, and the office also does special reports. With regard to resources, is this something the office looks for or is there acceptance when there are additional audits that are very large-scale that they automatically bring additional resources to the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General?
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
It would not automatically bring additional resources. The secretary and director of audit of the office, who is the Accounting Officer, would have to make a proposal and the provision would have to be built into the Estimate for the office. It has to go through Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and the sectoral committee. Ultimately the Estimate has to be passed and an appropriation Act has to be passed. We have to assess what resources would be required and then make a proposal to Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Did this happen with Irish Water?
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
There was some additional resourcing but we look for an overall resourcing package. We move staff members around and build a team from existing resources with an expectation that our overall cadre would be built up and the overall employment control framework would allow for additional resourcing.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Given that it looks like there will be a new funding model, and the issue of public confidence and what has transpired in the past year, as the Comptroller and Auditor General said it is not for his office but for the Oireachtas to get the legislation through quickly to bring it under the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General to try to restore public confidence. It is not a can that should be kicked down the road too far. We will look for an update from RTÉ with regard to the implementation of the 21 recommendations of the Committee of Public Accounts. It is due to come before the committee in the month of June and we look forward to that.
No. R2576 is from Niall Cody, chairman of the Revenue Commissioners, dated 30 April 2024. It provides follow-up information requested by the committee at the meeting of 11 April 2024 regarding the number of rent tax credit claims in 2022 and 2023. The correspondence draws attention to a recently uncovered error in information provided to the committee in correspondence No. R2435, dated 28 February 2024. I will read the correction into the parliamentary record because the information we were given by mistake was incorrect.
I would like to draw the Committee's attention to a recently uncovered error in the total monetary value of rent tax credit claims for the year 2023, which was provided to the Committee in correspondence dated 28 February 2024. The revised Total Claim Amount figure for 2023, as of 28 of February 2024 should have read €119.9 million rather than €135.6 million. I wish to apologise for any inconvenience caused.
A lesser sum of €119 million was drawn down. It is proposed that we note and publish this item. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, and they probably will for a while but it is still €13 million behind 2022.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We will now move on to the work programme, which has been circulated. A draft work programme has been out for discussion and the document is displayed on screen now. Next week, 16 May 2024, we meet with the Department of Education in relation to Vote 26. The following areas of interest have been flagged: running costs and demand management for schools, school building programmes, school transport, the disposal of assets of religious orders, and Caranua.
On 23 May we engage with the Department of Defence in relation to Vote 35 – Army Pensions, Vote 36 – Defence, and Chapter 12 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's annual report in relation to stock management in the Defence Forces. The Army Reserve has also been flagged as an area of interest.
On 30 May we will meet with the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board in relation to the 2022 financial statements. This gives two weeks for it to reply to the letter we mentioned earlier that is seeking information.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is this likely to happen?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Representatives of the Department of Health have been invited to attend. I propose that we also invite representatives of the HSE to attend. Is that agreed? Agreed.
On 13 June we will engage with the Office of Public Works in relation to Vote 13 – Office of Public Works. The following areas of interest have been flagged: the proposed national children's science museum project, flood relief schemes, vacant properties in the OPW portfolio, modular housing for Ukrainian beneficiaries of temporary protection; and non-compliant procurement.
On 20 June 2024, we will engage with the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board in relation to the 2022 financial statements. Is it agreed to invite representatives of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine to this meeting? Agreed.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I would like to go back to the OPW. When the OPW comes before the committee to speak about modular homes will the Department of children also in? This is the Department that is responsible.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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My understanding is, and I am open to correction on this and perhaps the Comptroller and Auditor General will be able to assist us with it, that the budget for it goes through the OPW. I am not sure whether it goes through the Department. Perhaps it does. Perhaps the money goes through that channel. I am not sure.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am not sure about it.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes it is.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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On foot of-----
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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This is a temporary protection order and it is the Department of children that is dealing with this particular aspect of it. Many of us have been quite critical that there has been one Department with responsibility. We need to check this.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes we will clarify that and if it is the case the Department is responsible we will invite senior officials.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Members will be happy to hear the Road Safety Authority has confirmed it availability to attend a meeting on 27 June 2024 in relation to the 2022 financial statements. The committee has agreed to invite representatives of the Department of Transport to this meeting. The following areas of interest have been flagged: road safety statistics and performance metrics, and outcomes from expenditure in the accounts.
If there are other issues members wish to flag-----
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It has responsibility for other things like vehicle testing.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We need to include both of those.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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And issuing driving licences.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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If its remit purely related to road safety, that would be different. It is so we know what resources are being deployed. We will also have to say to it about the GDPR issues that arise in the context of providing accident information to local authorities.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We will meet Waterways Ireland on 4 July to discuss its 2022 financial statements. If there are specific issues, which there may be, members should please forward details of them to the secretariat. On 11 July, we will meet the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine to discuss Vote 30 - Agriculture, Food and the Marine and Chapter 10 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report on estate management in the Department of Agriculture.
Do members wish to comment or add anything else to the work programme? It should be borne in mind that we will have the Comptroller and Auditor General's reports in September.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That concludes our consideration of the work programme. The final item on the public agenda is any other business. If there is no other business, we will go into private session briefly before adjourning until 9.30 a.m. on 16 May, when we will engage with the Department of Education.