Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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The purpose of the meeting is to discuss the UNCRPD at local level. Today's discussion is on transport. On behalf of the committee I welcome representatives of the National Transport Authority: Ms Anne Graham, chief executive officer; Mr. Jeremy Ryan, director of public transport services; and Ms Wendy Thompson, director of transport regulation. From Iarnród Éireann, I welcome Mr. Barry Kenny, head of corporate communications, Mr. Billy Gilpin, director of railway undertakings, and Mr. Ronan Murphy, head of customer experience.

Before we begin, witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to identifying a person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against persons outside of the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members contributing to the meeting remotely must be within the confines of Leinster House.

Without further ado, I invite Ms Graham to make her opening remarks.

Ms Anne Graham:

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for the invitation to attend. I understand that the committee wishes to discuss the UNCRPD at a local level in terms of transport. I am joined by Ms Wendy Thompson, director of transport regulation, and Mr. Jeremy Ryan, director of public transport services with the authority.

The importance of public transport for people with disabilities is fully acknowledged by the authority. As such, we are committed to ensuring that the public transport services we contract directly and regulate on behalf of the Government are fully accessible. Those public transport services are supported by sustainable transport infrastructure and public transport fleet which are designed and constructed to be fully accessible. However, because parts of our public transport infrastructure date back many decades, we also have to address legacy elements of the existing system that were not designed with accessibility in mind. However, we believe that significant progress has been made in a number of areas.

All of our town and city bus services are served by low-floor accessible fleet with ramps to the kerb for boarding at stops. Other regional bus services are operated under public service obligation contracts with Bus Éireann, Go-Ahead Ireland and other operators. New low-floor coach vehicles have been introduced on many of these routes to allow wheelchair access via door ramps, replacing high-floor coaches which required a wheelchair lift arrangement and the prior removal of up to four passenger seats. In conjunction with the low-floor access double-deck coaches with a permanent wheelchair space which we have purchased for Bus Éireann and Go-Ahead Ireland, the authority can now identify a significant proportion of services throughout the country as low-floor wheelchair-accessible. This will increase as more fleet is purchased.

The public bus passenger services provided by the commercial sector without a subsidy are licensed by the NTA. The Public Transport Regulation Act 2009, which governs this sector, allows the authority to place conditions on the licences related to minimum accessibility standards. This sector in the main operates long-distance intercity services, airport services, tour services and services to and from events. These services are generally served by high-floor coaches with luggage capacity below floor level. Low-floor front-entry coaches are not readily available in the market and the wheelchair accessibility requirements are being met in the main by high-floor coaches with external wheelchair lifts. The NTA carried out a detailed exercise in 2019, including a public consultation on proposals to place conditions on those licences for the provision of the accessible services. These proposals were completed in early 2020 just as the Covid-19 pandemic hit the country. The implementation of the proposals was paused due to the crisis. The crisis heavily impacted the commercial bus sector such that grants were provided to the industry by the Government in 2020 and 2021 to protect as many services as possible through to recovery. The authority is now re-examining the proposals to ensure they fit the current environment and will carry out a further public consultation in quarter 2 of this year with a view to setting minimum accessibility standards for such services in late 2024.

TFI Local Link, the rural transport programme managed by the authority through 15 Local Link offices throughout the country, provides approximately 95% of its regular rural bus services using wheelchair-accessible vehicles. TFI Local Link also operates door-to-door bus services and the level of wheelchair accessibility is at 90%. In particular, the door-to-door services are suitable for those who have a disability or are elderly. On some services passenger assistance is provided. In some locations across the country, no operator came forward through tenders to offer an accessible service.

Work continues on finding solutions to ensure the remaining Local Link services are fully accessible. Evening services have been developed by all of the 15 local units, which have been successful in facilitating access to local services, district towns and social events.

The Leitrim integrated transport three-year pilot project was launched with the HSE in June 2021. The objective of this project is to support the use of public transport for people attending medical appointments. Feedback from stakeholders and passengers has been very positive, with passenger numbers increasing significantly.

Connecting Ireland is the authority's public transport plan, designed to increase travel connectivity across rural Ireland. It aims to provide better connections between villages and towns by linking these with an enhanced public transport network, which also connects to cities and regional centres nationwide. It will be particularly beneficial to the mobility-impaired and elderly, offering them linkages to locations, people and services that are not available to them at present. Since the launch in 2022, more than 120 new and enhanced services have been delivered across rural Ireland with phenomenal response from the public in the form of passenger growth. New and enhanced town services have been delivered in Navan, Drogheda, Kilkenny, Sligo and Carlow, with more planned this year and in future years, again with great response from the public.

On taxi regulation, since 2010, all new taxi and hackney licences are granted only for wheelchair-accessible vehicles. To support the industry in the delivery of a higher proportion of wheelchair-accessible vehicles, the authority introduced the wheelchair accessible vehicle, WAV, grant scheme in 2014, supported by Government funding. This has resulted in the number of WAVs in the small public service vehicle, SPSV, fleet increasing from 850 in June 2014 to 3,818 WAVs at the end of last week, 12 April, which represents 19% of the total SPSV fleet and over 21% of the taxi fleet.

A list of the wheelchair accessible vehicle service providers and their contact details, per county, is on the TFI website, to facilitate easier booking. There is also a link on that register to the authority's complaints page for ease of access in case anyone is unhappy with the service provided by those WAV licenceholders. It is the authority’s aim to continue to increase the percentage of wheelchair-accessible vehicles in the SPSV fleet. All successful WAV grant scheme applicants or their drivers, where relevant, must complete disability awareness training with the Irish Wheelchair Association, including a lived experience section and a practical training section.

That concludes my introductory statement. I trust that I can answer any queries that may arise.

Mr. Barry Kenny:

I thank the committee for the invitation. Iarnród Éireann’s vision for rail is to be the backbone of an integrated, sustainable, and accessible public transport network for Ireland. We are committed to continuous improvements in accessibility, with the overall, ultimate objective of universal access for our customers. In that context, we are committed to achieving the goals of the UNCRPD. Dr. Meredith Raley from the Disability Federation of Ireland has briefed senior members of the Iarnród Eireann team on the UNCRPD, including the reporting process, the consultation on the state report and the Disability Participation and Consultation Network.

We have a dedicated accessibility officer and we engage regularly with disabled persons' organisations and service providers through our disability user group and direct one-to-one meetings with each organisation. Our disability user group is independently chaired by Tony Ward, a disability rights activist who is visually impaired. The mission of the group is to be a key contributor to the transformation of all Iarnród Éireann services to be universally accessible to and inclusive of everybody. The focus of our work is to maximise the quality of service with the infrastructure and facilities we have now and to ensure that as our investment programme, funded by the National Transport Authority, is delivered, we are continuously delivering tangible improvements to improve accessibility.

We have a customer experience team which assists customers with disabilities on their journeys on all routes throughout Ireland. Our customer experience teams assist 45,000 customers with a disability every year, and we work to continue to enhance that assistance. Current initiatives to progress that include the development of an accessibility assistance app, a just a minute, JAM, card for those with hidden disabilities, which is done working with the NTA, the Irish dementia working group workshops to enhance service provision for customers with dementia, a sensory room for Heuston Station, and training for customer service officers in Irish Sign Language, with our first group completing this training shortly.

A major area of focus for our capital investment programme has been to improve existing lifts and to put in new lifts and footbridges at stations where previously there have been inaccessible platforms. On renewals, this programme, funded by the NTA, has seen more than 50 lifts benefit from upgrades since 2020, ranging from complete replacement to control panel and other system renewals. Additionally, most of our stations with lifts have the customer lift call system in operation. This system provides monitored access to lifts to prevent anti-social behaviour, which was a significant factor in the past in lift availability issues. To access the lift, the customer presses a help point located at each landing of the lift shaft. Our monitored centre, operational at all times when trains are running, immediately sees CCTV and can ensure access for anti-social behaviour is prevented. The results of lift investment and lift call installation continue to be positive, with a significant reduction in the lifts being out of service. We already have a direct report form for customers to provide feedback on lifts and escalators via the portal to contact us on our website. Following consultation with Voice of Vision Impaired and Vision Ireland, new signage is being rolled out to all lift call locations.

The new lift programme is a continuing programme which prioritises those stations where one platform may currently be inaccessible or where the means of access is significantly short of modern person with reduced mobility, PRM, standards. The latest NTA funding was approved at the start of 2024 for this programme. Recently completed investments now have new lifts open and operational at Dalkey, Gormanston and, just last month, Little Island. I provided the committee with a list of further stations that are in project. I will not read it out. We have a further 15 stations, though I will not go through them all, where preliminary design works are under way.

One of the most significant improvements under way is the new DART+ fleet. A total of 185 carriages are on order from Alstom Transport, one of the leading fleet manufacturers. Construction is under way at its plant in Katowice in Poland, with delivery beginning later this year, and the new trains entering service from late 2025. Ultimately, up to 750 carriages will be ordered over a ten-year period for the expanded DART+ network and beyond. It will be the largest, most sustainable, and most accessible fleet to date in the public transport network.

The disability user group was part of the design phase process to gather feedback for the interior and exterior designs, attending workshops hosted by Behaviour and Attitudes to gather feedback as well as two visits to view mock-ups of the new fleet in Inchicore. Accessibility is a key deliverable of this fleet and an objective of Iarnród Éireann and the NTA for the ongoing expansion of the railway as a major public transport provider. The key accessibility issue from a train interface perspective is the platform gap and platform height. Great effort went into the specification of the new DART+ trains to ensure accessibility is transformed on the DART system. The vehicle tenderers were incentivised to focus on the carriage floor height above platform, with proposals to address the platform gap as well as accessibility and features for mobility impaired customers.

Our disability user group, DUG, was involved in design phase of the station wayfinding project, with several consultation sessions at Killester station which was used as the pilot station due to its proximity to the Central Remedial Clinic and Irish Wheelchair Association. The programme of replacement of this signage has been completed at 114 stations, with a further 22 to be completed this year.

The DUG was involved in consultation on the quieter coach, which was launched on the Dublin to Cork route in 2022 with positive feedback, especially from those with a disability. We are in discussions with Translink about expanding this to the Dublin to Belfast route on the existing Enterprise fleet. We have also rolled out sensory packs for customers with additional sensory challenges. The disability user group advised on contents. I detailed those in the written statement. The packs are free to customers who look for them and have proven popular.

All customer-facing staff of the company are provided with accessibility training. A current procurement process is under way to provide training to all our 1,500 customer-facing front-line staff. Our vision is to offer best in class accessibility training to all those staff who interact daily with customers with a disability. UNCRPD briefing will be included in training specification.

Changing places facilities are designed to enhance the health, safety, comfort and dignity of people who may need extra support and additional equipment during personal care tasks, above and beyond the standard accessible toilets, with additional features and equipment that enhance accessibility. The Connolly changing places facility opened in May 2021, which is the first in the Dublin 1 north inner-city area, while Heuston changing places opened to the public in September 2022. The facility in Colbert Station in Limerick is opening imminently. Further installation is planned in Sligo and Athlone next year. As detailed, we are committed to continuous improvement in all aspects of what we do and we would be happy to take questions the committee may have.

Ms Anne Graham:

I will begin by speaking about buses and wheelchair spaces. It is not that we have a second wheelchair space on buses but a buggy space. There are two spaces on 70% of our Dublin fleet and we will be rolling this out as the fleet is replaced. We will continue to have these two spaces available. It is about trying to find spaces for buggies for parents with young children as well as providing for wheelchair users.

We expect drivers to try to manage this as best they can and not necessarily to get out of their cabs. At least when a wheelchair user is approaching and people are standing in the wheelchair space, the driver should ask them to move. If there is a buggy in the space the driver should ask the person to move the buggy to the buggy space and try to manage it this way. There is no doubt that sometimes this can cause conflict.

Ms Anne Graham:

In particular it is difficult when the bus services are busy. Our role is to ensure the fleet has as much space as possible available on the lower deck. We facilitate with ramp access at the front of the bus. Our newer fleet has a ramp at the dismounting area also as a backup in case the ramp at the front is not operating. We are building in as many different accessibility features into the fleet as we can and as we learn more from users and develop better services. It is about managing access. We are providing the space and ensuring there are enough spaces available for people who might be mobility impaired and cannot use the stairs but who are not in a wheelchair. We still need seating.

Ms Anne Graham:

We do not provide anything specifically. It is something we could include in the notices to customers through the messages that are on a loop to try to ensure we keep the wheelchair space available. It is available for standing. It is for both standing and wheelchair users. Usually there is a very audible alarm when the ramp is being deployed at the front. People get a warning that the ramp is being deployed. Most people familiar with the bus know this means that somebody will need the space, whether a wheelchair user or somebody with a buggy.

We have undertaken customer information campaigns about not having buggies in the wheelchair space so that people, especially those using buggies, do not use the space, and, if they are, to encourage them to try to move to facilitate a wheelchair user who has no other means of getting around. At least a buggy user could fold down the buggy, even though this would cause some delay in services. The idea is to ensure the wheelchair space is made available and its primary use is for wheelchair users. My colleague Ms Thompson might speak on taxis carrying guide dogs and the impact of the fine.

Ms Wendy Thompson:

As Deputy Ellis said, last year we increased the fine for refusing passengers who are using wheelchairs or assistance dogs. We raised it to €250, which is the maximum we can levy under the legislation. We are also looking at the equality legislation, under which we also have a remit, and using one of our own regulations. There has been a marked difference since the fine was increased. Deputy Ellis mentioned dogs. In 2023, we had 19 complaints about refusals to take a dog. In 14 of these cases the driver received a €250 fine. Most of these have been paid. Where they are not paid, they automatically go to a prosecution. When they go to prosecution in the District Court, we rely on what the judge feels about it but we have moved it forward quite substantially.

As Deputy Ellis rightly said, service is the issue now. It is a much more significant issue than penetration. We have a higher number of wheelchair accessible vehicles then most similar jurisdictions. Only Scotland has more than us and this is because of its size and the number of cities. It is at 22%.

Covert and overt compliance activity on wheelchair accessible vehicles has been completed by our own trained personnel. We have repeat complainants. We have developed very good rapport with people who want to use taxis, whether with assistance dogs, in wheelchairs or with other sensory or intellectual problems they wish to work through. The rapport gained with our compliance team is very good. We now have a specialised team that does this work.

In our newsletters to drivers and in all our publicity, they are reminded again and again of their legislative requirements in this regard. This is quite apart from their social duties. Primary legislation makes a priority the carriage of a person with a physical or sensory disability. Drivers must give reasonable assistance to persons entering and alighting. We have followed this up with giving priority to persons who wish to travel in their wheelchairs or who have any other disabilities. These changes have really strengthened our position in the courts.

Disability awareness training by the Irish Wheelchair Association for each driver who gets a grant involves a lived experience. This is very important as some drivers responded in our surveys that they were not quite sure what they should or should not do, the appropriate language to use and what is the appropriate behaviour. This training was introduced as well as practical training. Since January, drivers applying for an SPSV licence must do online training on safeguarding and disability awareness across the board, including those areas on which drivers had come back to us as being reasons they were nervous of picking up people.

Naturally we are getting a lot of our information from despatch operators, from the largest to the smallest, about complaints that are going to them as well. It certainly has assisted people but it is not just the stick; we are very keen that the carrot is there as well. The grants are there so we can get the penetration up to increase the service.

Mr. Billy Gilpin:

I will comment on the new cross-Border fleet and the new Alstom fleet. The cross-Border Enterprise is a jointly operated service between Translink and Iarnród Éireann. It consists of three common trains. The service presented to the user is exactly the same. We do want to move to an Irish service. Shared island funding is being made available towards the end of this year. This means that to deliver an Irish service we will have to utilise some of our current intercity rail car fleet, which is accessible. Northern Ireland Railways will have to deploy its car fleet, which are modern trains.

The committee members may have seen last week there was funding announced from the Special European Union Programmes Body, SEUPB, to fund a new Enterprise fleet. We are currently going to market and part of the specification for that fleet is a fully accessible fleet across the entire length of the train. God willing these trains will enter service in 2028 and 2029.

On our new Alstom fleet, the trains all consist of five carriages and there are four designated wheelchair spaces. These trains would normally be coupled as ten cars, which means there would be eight wheelchair spaces. They are high-capacity vehicles so there is more room for wheelchair users to access the trains and to travel than just the bespoke wheelchair places. I will now ask Mr. Murphy to comment on the platform issue.

Mr. Ronan Murphy:

With regard to the raised platform, we were looking at Killester Station again because of its proximity to the Central Remedial Clinic and the Irish Wheelchair Association but following a couple of surveys at Killester Station we found it was not suitable and this has now been moved to Park West. We are just finalising the actual location on the platform. It will involve a closure of the railway so we are looking at the end of June for that. The trial period will probably be a three to six month period. We will keep the committee updated on progress.

Mr. Ronan Murphy:

Irish Rail has a clear policy that if it is a lap dog or an assistance dog-----

Ms Anne Graham:

With the wider services such as bus services generally it would be assistance dogs or carried-----

Ms Anne Graham:

While some people do bring small dogs on that will not cause any disruption to passengers it is very hard to distinguish between what would be considered a small lap dog or not. In preference, and given that many of our services are very busy services, we are currently restricted to assistance dogs and guide dogs. We are open to consider that in the future but for the moment, given our services are extremely busy and that we are trying to ensure that all customers feel comfortable on our services, we want to make sure-----

Ms Anne Graham:

Yes. My colleague Mr. Ryan can speak on Dublin Bus.

Mr. Jeremy Ryan:

The driver has discretion in the case of Dublin Bus to allow any pet on board.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I now invite Deputy Murnane O'Connor, in substitution for Senator Fiona O'Loughlin.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for all the information. I will start with the National Transport Authority, NTA. I welcome the two buses we have in Carlow. The service has been an absolute and total success, a game changer. The disability access is absolutely excellent. We could do with more of them. I believe a review will be held shortly. We need these buses. We do not have one at our railway station, believe it or not, and we do not have one at the Graiguecullen swimming pool, which is a community pool. There are maybe five or six areas where the review needs to happen given the number of people using them, for example for college - we are now a university town - and considering the number of people queuing for these buses. I was coming up the other day and at one bus stop I met about 20 people queuing to get on the bus. I thought that was just lovely. The buses are nearly free there is such a small amount of payment. I am blown away by it. I must say "Well done" but we need to have a review of other areas that need to be looked at. The railway station is a huge issue for us. Overall, however, the buses are great.

I was at the Irish Wheelchair Association meeting a few weeks ago and a young lady came into me. She was going away for a week on holidays and she was trying to get the airport bus from Carlow to Dublin. They told her that they did not have any wheelchair accessibility on it. She had used the service previously but they told her that they had stopped it. Naturally enough she was very upset and then she had to get the train to Dublin to try to get another taxi or some transport out to the airport. It actually took her a day. She said that if she could get the airport bus from Carlow she would be at the airport in three hours as it is right to the door and accessible. I did try to help her. I put in a complaint because she was upset over it. Will the NTA tell me what its complaints process is? The person I was dealing with there was very nice but I feel the process needs to be looked at. The bus service is really good but then a young girl like that, who is a wheelchair user, is affected. It was really upsetting to me to see how upset she was because she felt that we are meant to have these services. Could the NTA witnesses look at that for me? A complaint has gone in. Has the NTA had any other complaints about a situation like that? Given the policies and awareness how does the NTA deal with something like this? How can we get it sorted so that no one else is in that position again? These are my questions to the NTA.

Now I will talk about the trains. I spoke to the witnesses previously on this. I can see all the work that is going on, and that we have all the extra carriages in Carlow, but Carlow has gotten really busy and there are two issues. It is great that we are promoting that travel and telling people to get the train, and that we must do what we can around climate issues and the environment but now people cannot get a parking space at Carlow station and many people walk from Carlow station to my office saying they could not get parking. Many are people going to hospitals and people who do not want to drive to Dublin so they are delighted to have the option of the train. The trains are excellent by the way. I have been on a few recently. The standard of the trains and the service is excellent. With Carlow railway station, however, there is not half enough parking spaces. I am aware that Carlow County Council was working on a plan to try to operate a lot of extra spaces. I am sure they have been in contact with Iarnród Éireann as well on this. We could do with a lot more spaces. I want to know about funding. Does Iarnród Éireann set aside funding for car parking spaces? People do not mind paying. It is only an issue when people are losing their hospital appointments and losing out on going to different things, which they are really upset over.

I have a bugbear that I really do not know how Iarnród Éireann could sort for me. The witnesses may be aware that in Bagenalstown - and in other smaller rural areas - Iarnród Éireann has no one there minding the station. That is my nightmare. In Bagenalstown there are two particular wheelchair users. They use the train from Bagenalstown to Carlow when they travel in to the Irish Wheelchair Association centre in Carlow - they come Carlow for their services on a scheme. The issue is the station. One must pre-pay but there are no toilet facilities. They have to go to the pub down the road to use the toilet. The whole place is locked up. They have to go online to get a ticket which does not really suit them. The man who was there manning the station was an absolute gentleman and was there for years but he was taken out of the station.

We now have a station that is not manned and has no toilets. The wheelchair users are so disheartened by this. I met with different groups and brought down the groups but it has not changed. It is not just Bagenalstown. I believe there are others as well. I was reading about all the good work that is happening in the stations. We see all the new lifts and footbridges and they are welcome. Then I read that there is going to be significant investment in the DART fleet - one of the biggest investments ever - but we are forgetting rural Ireland. Rural Ireland is there. I know people who cannot use the station because it has no toilet facilities and nobody minding it. We have to be very careful when investing money that we keep what we have. There is definitely a station in County Kilkenny that was closed down as well and I am sure there are more stations around the country that have been closed down so I am asking the witnesses today on behalf of wheelchair users, people with disabilities and people who are visually impaired and cannot go online and book a ticket to open stations to allow people to get to the station, get a ticket and have somebody there to help them on to the train. It is a significant disadvantage for people with disabilities. While I welcome the good things like our new town bus link, which is excellent and should be everywhere, I see other areas where we are falling down. Can Bagenalstown and other rural areas be looked at? This is about people with disabilities and older people who are unable to use it. It has been closed for a while. A lovely man came down and met me at Bagenalstown station about six months ago. He said: "Deputy, we've invested a lot of money in shrubs and plants and we're donating a lot of money now to make this look nice." While I welcome that, I said to him: "You're not solving my situation here." He was very nice. I told him that I welcome the funding being put into the railway station but that we need to get it opened.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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We have had a tour of Carlow.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry if I went on a bit about that.

Ms Anne Graham:

I thank the Deputy for her comments on the Carlow service. We are delighted with the response of the customers to the Carlow service. It does get good access. We always review service after a number of months to see how it is operating and whether we are in a position to put in any additional services. There is a problem getting buses in and out of the railway station and finding a suitable and safe location for a bus. At all stages, we try to interchange with the railway station. It is very important for the town service. I do not think it was physically possible but we always continue our conversations with Iarnód Éireann to see how we can solve that problem and we will try to get to having much better interchange at the railway station. We will look at other locations but when you are doing that and putting in additional stops or lengthening a service, you have to make sure it does not undermine the benefits everybody gets. It is a great start for Carlow.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is great.

Ms Anne Graham:

When people use a service like that, it puts us under pressure to do more and that is where we want to be but we are reliant on getting increased funding to be able to deliver on behalf of the people of Carlow.

Regarding the bus service from Dublin to Carlow, which would have served Dublin Airport, as I said in my opening statement, we know there are no conditions in place on licensed services that they must provide a wheelchair-accessible service. We did a lot of work on that in the lead up to 2019 and consulted with operators as well as with the public and we put a scheme in place but, unfortunately, Covid hit so we were not able to impose something that was going to put a financial burden on the operators at that stage. They were already facing significant challenges because of the loss of passenger services and they needed financial support during Covid to ensure we still had some services left post Covid. We are doing that exercise again and we are seeing whether anything else can be added, including emission standards, which are very important. That work will go out for public consultation this quarter and we hope to complete that work at the end of the year so we can start imposing those kind of standards on our commercial services - commercial services that do not receive a subsidy. There is the potential for a solution in that case.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is good to know.

Ms Anne Graham:

In terms of a complaint, that would be the response to the complaint but we will certainly give that to the Deputy in writing if needs be.

Mr. Billy Gilpin:

Regarding Carlow and the way we have reshaped our customer experience offer, previously we had nobody or very few travelling on the trains and we had station staff. The reality is that our customers spend the majority of their time interacting with Irish Rail on the train so we consciously decided to employ a complement of staff with the right skill set to act as customer service officers on our Intercity services. That has been a significant success for us and that means that people have a customer experience involving having an Iarnród Éireann employee with them the entire journey and not just for the couple of minutes when they get off or on the train. That worked for us. That customer service officer can assist any passenger with needs on the train on the train, off the train and during the journey. Regarding the Waterford line, we continue to look at service options and where we can improve and increase, that will happen in support and with the co-operation of the NTA as funding becomes available or where we believe there is a demand.

Regarding assisting with ticketing and booking offices, the overwhelming majority of our customers of all types do not go near a booking office. The percentage of those who do is in single digits. We have drastically reduced the number of booking offices over the years because people generally do it online or through ticket vending machines. We also have the customer service centre. Mr. Murphy might elaborate on how we can support people on their journey through it.

Mr. Ronan Murphy:

We have a designated customer contact centre so people can phone in. As Mr. Gilpin mentioned at the start, we have an assistance scheme for customers with disabilities and we operate as a hub station so even though Bagenalstown would be unmanned, we would have a hub station serving Bagenalstown. There would be about 17 assists per period within that station so we are monitoring the low incident figures coming through. There is a procedure in place to handle unstaffed stations so that customers with a disability can travel.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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If they want to use a toilet, there is nobody to let them in. It is all locked up. Everywhere is locked up. Could Iarnród Éireann look at that?

Mr. Barry Kenny:

We are progressing preliminary design on expansion works at Carlow this year. Most of the land is under our ownership or we liaise with the NTA and Carlow County Council. There is potential scope for trebling spaces there subject to planning and funding but we are progressing that design this year.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Will Mr. Kenny email me about it?

Mr. Barry Kenny:

I will of course.

Frank Feighan (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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I am an optimist. It is always good to see some good news here and I thank the witnesses for the great work they are doing. The TFI LocalLink has changed the way we do our business. I never thought that was possible but it is certainly being rolled out. A total of 90% of the regular rural bus service has a level of wheelchair accessibility. We need to do more but it is very high. It is great to see.

Like a few speakers, I will be parochial. It is nice to see that the programme has prioritised stations where one platform was not accessible. I see that planning has been approved for my local station in Boyle. I welcome developments at all stations but it is good to see them at Boyle. Regarding changing places facilities, Iarnród Éireann has done good work in Heuston Station and Limerick and it is good to see that it has plans for further installations in Sligo and Athlone. We need more of that.

How does the NTA hear from people with disabilities who are using its services on the ground? Is the NTA using the feedback to improve the services? I like the way Mr. Gilpin has trained people on the trains such that they are effectively service providers. It is good to see that logic comes in to an area. It is great to see Irish Rail is able to resolve those issues. Sometimes it is not just about somebody behind the phone or a desk; it is about their being on the train. That is very good. How far is Ireland away from a fully accessible public transport system? Can these figures be collated and reported on annually?

It was raised on social media that there were taxis at the airport which refused to take wheelchairs. Taxi owners may access a grant to convert their vehicles, but may then refuse to pick up people with disabilities because of the extra work and time involved. Has the NTA received complaints in this regard? How is it supporting taxi drivers who have converted their vehicles to pick up people with disabilities? How is it dealing with people who have not? Is there appropriate monitoring in place in this regard?

Sometimes, people with disabilities get on a train and the information about their needing a ramp, for example, has not been received. How can this be improved? Sometimes, I hear a complaint to the effect that, for example, a ramp may not have been available. Has that been dealt with?

Again, I thank everyone for the great work they are doing. In this committee we work together to try to highlight any issues or problems but sometimes it is nice to give someone an old pat on the back as well.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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We will start with Iarnród Éireann and then go to the NTA.

Mr. Ronan Murphy:

On ramps and whether assistance is required or where it happens, currently we have a manual system in operation. In the context of the 45,000 assists we do annually, it is quite manual. We are looking at an accessibility customer solution that will be an application to improve the whole experience. From the feedback we have got from customers with a disability, it is to give the reassurance that there will be somebody there. If someone rings up to book assistance there will be confirmation for the staff member. They will receive notification that the customer is booking in advance and there is somebody there to assist. That whole process will be really improved within the next six to nine months.

Mr. Billy Gilpin:

The figure of 45,000 is probably understated in relation to the assists that happened. That figure is for the ones that go through the formal system. Quite a few people just turn up and are successfully able to travel. The risk is if they present for an intercity train which has only one wheelchair space and that has already been taken then that person is not able to travel and then there might be an hour until the next train. It is less of an issue on the commuter or DART network where the frequency of trains means that people generally can travel when they want. However, with the manual system, the staff are very engaged. We will move towards the app. We want to get a system that has been trialled and tested elsewhere in Europe. We believe there are market providers out there that can do that so it would be fairly seamless implementation.

Ms Anne Graham:

We hear from people on the ground in multiple ways. We have our own transport users advisory group which is made up of customers across all the modes but also customers with a disability or representing groups who are aware of what customers’ difficulties are with using public transport. The Irish Wheelchair Association is represented on that. We also engage with our public transport operators. We have a staff member dedicated to gathering together all the issues arising across our public transport service. Our accessibility manager liaises with the public transport operators who are hearing complaints or issues through their user groups. That is one way in which we hear from people on the ground.

We also carry out mystery shopper surveys of operators in which we use people with disabilities in order to see it from their point of view. They assess our services and see the issues that are arising from their perspective as customers. We have many different ways of gathering the data. It all feeds into how we can improve and how we can get to fully accessible service. It is very hard to put a percentage on that and how far away we are because some areas are more progressed than others. However, using the principles of universal design, you have to consider the transport from door to door, so that is all aspects of the journey: is it accessible across the footpath to a bus stop onto a bus; off the bus and then to the particular destination? Can the person see and hear where the next bus stop is in order that they can avail of the service and alight at the appropriate place? There are many aspects of the service that need to be improved. One area, particularly outside Dublin, which we think needs to be improved is ensuring that bus stops are wheelchair accessible. That is an area where we need to continue to invest in providing the space whether it is for a wheelchair lift or a low-floor bus. It is even just having hard standing at some of our bus stops to ensure that people can avail of those services. We regularly monitor and report on the level of accessibility across different aspects of our service and we are happy to provide that to the committee. We gave a detailed briefing note in September. We are happy to update that across the different aspects of the services.

I might ask my colleague to talk on the taxis.

Ms Wendy Thompson:

On the taxis at the airport, we work very closely with the airport police and have given the airport police officers training in this. Apart from anything, it is a private area and we do not have the same rights as the NTA compliance teams to do exactly what we want. One thing we can do is issue the fixed penalty notices for this, but there are many other aspects. Strict refusals are one thing - I know that is what the Deputy is talking about here – but for many other complaints we do not so we work very closely with them.

On support for disabled passengers, that is where we would have our own compliance officers physically at the airport for all incoming early flights and other peak times during the day so that we can see what is going on, if that is happening. There are also all the different ways by which someone can make a complaint. That can be done through the roof sign number or the registration number. Someone can use the Driver Check app in order to find out the full details of the individual and work out how to complain. That is as well as ourselves and as well as the airport police.

We do monitor it. Where we find that someone has, for instance, we gave 36 fixed penalty notices last year for refusals. We had a difficulty last year because some refusals were not for wheelchair accessible and some were. We worked with that but it has been ironed out now. We sometimes find that a driver is a repeat offender, has not understood what we have said to him and might be paying the fine and going about his business. This was before we increased the fine to €250 and brought all the prosecutions. In that case we get the Garda Commissioner, who is the suitability assessment person, to delegate one of his superintendents to interview the individual, quite apart from ourselves doing it, to assess their suitability to hold their licence at all, given their legal and social duties.

The Deputy mentioned grants. There is a three-year service period for each of those grants and monthly journey forms have to be submitted to ourselves. We use mystery shopping and so on as well as the journey forms. We do claw back the grant. We have people in debt collection specifically to claw back the grant where that service is not being provided, where we have complaints.

In order to get a grant in the first place, you cannot have had a fine or a successful prosecution, whether that involved a conviction, a fine, paying money to the Little Dinners or whatever. They cannot get a grant at all. That is something we will look at.

As well as having our complaint form on the wheelchair accessible vehicle register, to which wheelchair accessible groups, including the Irish Wheelchair Association, send all of their members and which is consistently publicised, we also have a different web form. It can be done by phone, letter or to the compliance people, anonymously or with a name. When it is done anonymously, there is very little we can do other than investigate if more has happened or if there is any previous. We find our passengers with disabilities are very good at giving their name and helping and assisting us, and the dispatch operators the same.

We have both overt and covert presence at the airport. Sometimes people who have disabilities send a friend out first to book the taxi and say their friend is coming, and then the friend comes in their wheelchair. That is totally unacceptable. That is one thing we use to check on night runs and so on. We put ourselves, to the best of our limited ability, in the wheelchair user's shoes when trying to get a taxi. We are our own mystery shoppers. We have spoken with the Irish Wheelchair Association to get a scheme running with wheelchair users doing that for us when they need to go somewhere and then tell us much more about it. That is our monitoring.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in. I want to begin by clarifying. Did Ms Graham say she cannot compel bus companies to provide wheelchair accessible spaces?

Ms Anne Graham:

On the commercial services. Within our legislation, we can put a licence condition with a particular accessibility standard. That is the way we can put the licence condition on.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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If I recall correctly, my colleague said a 28-year-old woman was told there was no wheelchair accessible space on a bus going to the airport.

Ms Anne Graham:

Yes, because it had not been conditioned in the licence to provide that.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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Will Ms Graham give me a list of all commercial operators who do not provide these services? They need to be named and shamed. That is completely and utterly unacceptable and absolutely beyond the pale. Imagine if a bus company said, "Thanks for the licence. By the way, we don't take people from the LGBTQI community. We don't take Muslims. We don't take black people. Have a nice day." Would we accept that?

Ms Anne Graham:

I am not saying we accept it.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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Can you send me a list of the operators who refuse to do this?

Ms Anne Graham:

I do not have them because we do not keep a register of the bus companies and their level of accessibility-----

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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So the National Transport Authority does not know which of the companies they give licences to are wheelchair accessible and which are not?

Ms Anne Graham:

We have a register and we do a survey each year and ask them their level of wheelchair accessibility. We updated that information for the work we are doing in terms of going out for public-----

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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Can you communicate that information to me?

Ms Anne Graham:

We can give you the percentage that has been-----

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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No, can you give me the names of the operators who refuse to provide wheelchair access?

Ms Anne Graham:

I do not know who is refusing because-----

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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You said you conduct a survey and ask their level of accessibility.

Ms Anne Graham:

No, I ask the level of accessibility of their fleet. That is not necessarily related to the service. Their fleet could be accessible and they have a wheelchair lift but it could be then down to service provision on the fleet.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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That is the first takeaway for me. There is a level of acceptance-----

Ms Anne Graham:

There is no acceptance on this side about that. I have indicated that before Covid we went through a process-----

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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In your survey, will you ask them to indicate whether or not, in this 28-year-old woman's case, they would take her to the airport or not? It is completely unacceptable.

On another small matter, I tried to search the list of wheelchair accessible taxis on the Transport for Ireland website. There is some problem whereby you cannot get into it. It keeps verifying whether or not you are a robot. That is also inaccessible. You cannot access the search. That could be something temporary but I say it so the witnesses know.

I understand our infrastructure is old but last week I was in Vienna. The network of urban rail and trains was built on the Austro-Hungarian emperor's orders, I think about 200 years ago, and they are all fully accessible. Engineering should be able to resolve this. The witnesses have said they are working on this. This is nothing personal to Mr. Kenny. He and I go back a very long way, but the DART and Iarnród Éireann are inaccessible to somebody like my son. We do not use them and cannot use them because of the lifts and the requirement to inform the service 24 hours in advance of what time and station we will travel and return at.

As for the app Iarnród Éireann is designing, I have been getting texts and emails about that app for five or six years. How long has it been in development?

Mr. Ronan Murphy:

The Senator is right. I have been involved with it for the last five years. When we started it, it was groundbreaking and had not been done anywhere. There is one in operation in the UK and one in Belgium.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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Why is it taking five or six years?

Mr. Ronan Murphy:

Because this had not been done anywhere in the world before, so we are looking at-----

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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You would get a first-year student who would do that for you in 24 hours.

Mr. Ronan Murphy:

We did a live pilot on the DART last year. To bring it to the next level we need----

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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This is not personal to any of the witnesses because, excuse the pun, with transport, we are all on a journey. However, there is a level of tolerance for ableism in Ireland that is shocking. I do not accept the phrases "We'll try", "We'll endeavour" or "We're on the way". You will do it. The new Taoiseach has said we will sign all the optional protocols to the UN convention and that the relevant organisations must comply with them. Commercial transport operators are being given licences and, as my colleague pointed out, young women are told they cannot travel. That puts the young woman to whom I referred at risk. It is not good enough.

I know the NTA has got a volume of correspondence on the new BusConnects bus stop designs. We have been using the public transport system for 20 years. I have a son who is a wheelchair user. He is partially sighted. The nearest bus stop to us, on the Rock Road junction with Trimleston Avenue, is unusable. The NTA has been written to about that. It is suicidal. The way it is laid out you cannot see the road from the bus shelter. You have to cross two bicycle lanes and stand on a narrow concrete strip on the edge of the Rock Road, which is like something out of "Mad Max". It is an extremely dangerous situation. The design is not for purpose. My son is 22 and will not use that bus stop. He has to go down the other side of the Rock Road to the punchbowl cross at the pedestrian lights and use a different bus shelter.

I know the NTA ticks all sorts of boxes by having disability advisory groups and feedback but, de facto, the train and DART system is inaccessible and dangerous. My son cannot use it. Either the lift is broken or there is nobody in the station. Then there is this business of ringing Connolly. I rang Pearse before I came in here. My experience is you have to ring Pearse to arrange to have somebody physically there at the station with a ramp. It is unacceptable we have to ring 24 hours in advance. That means my son cannot have an impulse. He cannot decide, "Oh, it's sunny. I think I'll go to Howth." Can witnesses imagine if we told members of the LGBTQI who wanted to go to Electric Picnic that, because they are members of that community, they had to ring 24 hours in advance and tell us their travel plans, or if we said that to Muslims or black people? It is completely unacceptable.

I will give Mr. Kenny a chance at the end.

He made the comment that sometimes disabled people just turn up looking for a train or bus. That is what all of us do. We just turn up. That is the nature of public transport. Again, it is about a mindset. The gap is not on the platform. The gap is not between the ramp and the door. The gap is in understanding that the right of disabled people to access public transport is a fundamental human right. It is about freedom of movement and people should not be restricted in that way.

With regard to the lifts, I recently went to Germany to do a piece for The Irish Timeson Berchtesgaden, Hitler's Eagle's Nest retreat. The lift for that works. It was built in 1942 or something. I do not understand why the lifts in Booterstown or Clontarf do not. Mr. Bernard Mulvany runs the social media site where every day he lists the stations that are out of order, which are not necessarily displayed correctly in real time on the platforms so people do not know. I cannot say that to my 22-year-old son. On the few occasions he has used the DART to go to Clontarf to the Central Remedial Clinic, CRC, he has often come back to find that the lift is broken in Booterstown DART station and then he has to go to Blackrock to wait for the next DART. People have to ask the person who is there with the ramp to wait for the next DART. I would say without exception that all of Mr. Kenny's staff are lovely.

In terms of qualitative research, participant observation is recognised internationally as a valid mode of collecting data. My son is forced to use the bus network mostly. We discuss all the negative experiences he has in depth in our house because each one of them is a risk incident. For what it is worth, the unpleasant experiences he has are never from female drivers. I ask him who said X, Y or Z to him. It is wonderful because his personal assistant is from central Europe and she is a woman, and he has a dog. It is almost like a social experiment because you get a combination of sexism, misogyny, racism and all those ingredients mixed up in the negative responses. I ask what the driver looked like or where he was from. It seems to be an almost exclusively male phenomenon. I am from Finglas. My son said to me, "They sounded like you, Dad". Therefore, if Irish Rail wants to focus on a cohort of people who need extra training, I might suggest that might hint at who the primary cause of these negative offences is.

I am delighted to hear that Irish Rail is getting this new fleet of train carriages. Is each one of those wheelchair accessible? Do they have those ramps that come out?

Mr. Barry Kenny:

It is a ramp that slides out to the platform edge.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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Yes, those are the ones I saw.

Mr. Barry Kenny:

As Mr. Murphy was saying-----

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I will finish on a positive note. I want to thank Irish Rail for that because that will go a huge way towards making it accessible. Mr. Gilpin also said that by 2028, the heavier-----

Mr. Billy Gilpin:

The Enterprise fleet.

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I am delighted to hear that. I know that his hands are tied because Irish Rail is depending on funding from other agencies and so on. I will finish now, Chair. I am sorry for going on for so long. One of the things we lack here is ambition. I do not know what it is about Ireland. Whether it is a post-Catholic phenomenon or a post-colonial thing, there is this idea that if a person is disabled, he or she is going to have a crap experience. People say we will endeavour and try this and do that. This is the last frontier of equality. Irish people are very good on equality. However, we cannot do to disabled people what we would not do to any other protected category of citizen whether that be because of ethnicity, religious formation, sexual orientation, gender identity or whatever. We just have to stop. We cannot treat people like that. That as to be reflected in the language we use and the assumptions we make. I am glad that I came here this evening because I am now aware. I am going to find out what companies do not do this and I will name and shame them.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Senator Clonan very much. We will start with Iarnród Éireann and then go to the National Transport Authority.

Mr. Ronan Murphy:

On the piece on the 24 hours, we actually reduced it in 2018. When we met with representatives from the Irish Wheelchair Association, they said that if it is a sunny day, people should not be stopped from going out. Therefore, we reduced it to four hours. We accept that it is not acceptable and we are trying to work on that. With the accessibility app, we could get that down further. At our intercity stations where, as Mr. Gilpin said, there are behaviours that people are turning up and going, we have 80% of our intercity customers booking in advance in general. It would be the norm across Europe that 80% to 90% would book in advance. Therefore, we are looking at our major stations to reduce the period of time from the current 24 hours advertised to one- to two-hour periods in advance, which, on an intercity basis, would be-----

Tom Clonan (Independent)
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Iarnród Éireann is providing a public service. The reason we need these apps is because the stations are unmanned. That is something for which a more radical approach could perhaps be taken. I cannot leave without saying this. When I mentioned the negative experiences my son and his carer have had, I forgot to say that even though there is a certain cohort of people who seem to be a centre of gravity there, I have to say, they are very much the exception. All of the staff, whether it is taxi drivers, bus drivers or people on the rail network, are extremely friendly. I just want to make sure I emphasise that. However, there is a minority of people who are absolutely appalling.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Senator Clonan might let Mr. Murphy answer because we are running over time.

Mr. Ronan Murphy:

The Senator spoke about ticking a box. I am passionate about it. I am not ticking any boxes for the company. We have started a number of initiatives on accessibility between the Irish dementia working group, the work we are doing with the sensory room and sensory packs and the quieter coaches. A huge amount of work is going into it and there is no way we are ticking boxes. It is just to get that across.

Mr. Billy Gilpin:

The Senator said earlier that we are on a journey and he is entirely correct. The end of that journey is to have a fully accessible network. As we all know, however, there are stages to get there. The interventions Mr. Kenny pointed out in his opening address and hopefully some of the ones we have explained show our commitment, along with the support and help of the National Transport Authority, to do that. We are not perfect. We do not always get it right and we have things to learn. As Mr. Murphy said, however, our passion is to present a fully accessible network.

Mr. Barry Kenny:

In terms of lifts, much work has been done. It is one of the most significant exposures and the examples the Senator gave for his son are absolutely illustrative of that. There were two thirds fewer lift faults in 2023 versus 2019. By the end of this year, with the NTA-funded programme, there will not be a lift on the network that is older than five years old. We had legacy lifts that simply were not fit for purpose and that suffered from repeated vandalism. That is something we are overcoming. Obviously, there is the new station design as well as that. As I said, we want to get it to zero, but there really has been quite a significant improvement there and we will continue to work on that.

Ms Anne Graham:

We do not accept the level of service that we are offering to all our users. We know there are many improvements that still need to be made and we are ambitious to make those changes as well, particularly on the services that we directly contract. We did not accept that a wheelchair lift was the appropriate access onto a bus for a wheelchair user. It is demeaning and it is not an appropriate service. However, that is the fleet that has been manufactured in the UK and that has been brought into service. It is the standard in the UK. That is considered an accessible service. We did not consider that accessible. We especially commissioned a coach fleet for our regional services that had low floors, ramp access at the front that still allowed for a step later and could carry luggage. We felt that was not an appropriate service to be offering, particularly where the State is funding those services. That is the level of service we have an ambition to deliver on our contracted service. It does not need to be booked. People turn up and go and wheelchair space is available following a ramp both on our single-deck bus and also our double-deck coach.

As we roll out that fleet, we will get to a stage where the services we offer directly are 100% wheelchair accessible.

Mr. Jeremy Ryan:

If I may add to that, all our new tendered contracts require low-floor bus fleet. At the moment, 82% of Bus Éireann's fleet nationwide is low-floor. We are making progress. We are not there yet but we are pretty close to having a 100% accessible bus fleet.

Ms Anne Graham:

We recognise that is not the level of service on the commercial services. A good proportion of our services are operated without a subsidy and we need to bring the standard on those services up and put in place conditions requiring them to provide an accessible service. However, it will generally be low-floor on commercial services in urban areas. It may have to be high-floor coaches for a period until there is fleet available on the market suitable for long-distance services that can take luggage as well as a wheelchair user. It is about balancing that but such fleet is not really available on the market. It is certainly our ambition that are own services will be offered on a fully low-floor fleet so that people can just turn up and go.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I have been listening intently. There are lots of good things happening. A bus link has started in Tuam. The service goes to Headford and up into Galway on a brand-new fully accessible electric bus. It is operated by a private operator. It cost him a lot of money. I have been on the bus and have seen it operating. It is probably where we need to get to.

I am not going back over old ground that has been discussed so eloquently by the Senator and others but there are a number of issues to mention. It is about joined-up thinking. The IWA action group in Tuam sought to talk to Bus Éireann about its bus fleet and was told the buses were accessible. However, if Bus Éireann hires in contractors, the buses are not accessible. That should be a condition when hiring buses in. Second, the bus stop on Vicar Street in Tuam is not accessible. Those in the group cannot use the bus because the bus stop is not accessible. How can that problem be solved?

One of the issues that has become caught up in all of this is that bus shelters and so on are now tied into active travel funding. That can be checked out but it is what I am being told. Effectively, funding for bus shelters comes from the active travel fund. Does active travel include accessible travel? Bus stops are as important as the bus. If you do not have the two together, you will not get where you need to go. The simple fact is that this is the only way people who want to go from Tuam to Galway for an appointment can do so. That is the case until Mr. Kenny and the gang put in the western rail corridor. Then we will get them to Eyre Square fairly fast. It must be ensured that all of those carriages are accessible to the disabled. This is an issue of joined-up thinking. When putting in infrastructure like a new bus service, we must ensure that all the pieces are together to make sure that it can actually work. On the bus link I have mentioned, there are no bus stops. It stops at a GAA pitch where there is plenty of room to pull in. We do not have to reinvent any wheels or create lots of paperwork as to what we need to do. In many cases, we do not need planning permission but to use our heads so that we can have something that is accessible for all.

We had a debate about disability services in the Dáil this morning. One issue that came out of it was the rights of people with disabilities. That is why we are here. It is not so much about talking about rights but making it so that we do not have to talk about those rights because they are being implemented. That is our goal. With public transport, there are a lot of things that are moving. We are all on the journey. However, where new works are being done or new projects are being put in place, they should be designed to the standard we need. It was interesting to hear that the buses used in the UK are not acceptable to the NTA. It is commendable that the NTA is not going to take what somebody else has but will instead go for best practice. However, when issuing licences, accessibility does not form part of the conditions in some cases. All those licences need to be reviewed and, where any are being renewed, the service should have to be at a level that protects rights. It is a simple thing not to use contracts that do not include such a condition any more. We should not have different conditions for different operators. Every public bus should be accessible to everybody who needs it.

One of Irish Rail's biggest problem is that its fleet needs to be upgraded. It is working on that. It needs more carriages on the likes of the Galway to Limerick line. Apart from passengers having to stand up, people with wheelchairs cannot be properly accommodated. We talk a lot about public transport being the cure for a lot of our carbon emissions and transport emissions. We need to make sure that the experience for everybody, no matter who, is good so that they will continue to use public transport. That is why the rights of all need to be accommodated within everybody's regimes.

The witnesses said that they have been developing an app for four or five years. Perhaps somebody somewhere is doing something similar that we could pick up and use. It might be possible to do that in six months rather than spending four years, which is a lot of time, at it, causing a lot of frustration.

I do not necessarily need any replies but, from listening to the witnesses, I know they are doing what they can. However, we may need to be doing more. It needs to become more normal. It should not be a case of putting in a clause here and there relating to disabilities. Such conditions should be in every contract and design specification for a bus or bus shelter. It should not be something we have to check. I could mention lots of things that are wrong with regard to accessibility and so on but I believe the witnesses already know what is wrong. It is just a case of the committee encouraging them to make sure that things are put right in the future and that gaps are not left.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome everyone and thank them for their opening statements. Like everyone else, I welcome the positive work they have outlined that their organisations are undertaking. I will also refer to the Disability Act. Section 26 provides that public bodies are required to ensure their services are accessible to people with disabilities by providing integrated access to mainstream services. That is already 20 years old. The Act was enacted in 2005 and it is still not the case that all public transport buses and trains are accessible. It is very slow. I welcome the work that is being done but there is no excuse for this.

Mr. Kenny referenced universal access for all customers. That is what we should aim for. That is what we should have now. Disabled people going on a bus or a train should not require assistance. They should be able to access that route seamlessly. The lifts should be working, there should not be a gap between the train and the platform, the buses should have wheelchair spaces and so on.

I was talking to a young woman who is visually impaired earlier. I do not know if the witnesses are familiar with the IWA report, Getting Nowhere. If they are not, I suggest they become familiar with it. It is a very comprehensive report on accessible transport. The main bugbear was these floating bus stops. There is a very significant issue with these. There is the bus stop sitting there, then a cycle lane and then the road so people getting the bus have to cross the cycle lane. Who has right of way? This young woman is visually impaired. She gets on the bus and gets off at a bus stop like this. She said that one particular bus driver always endeavours to assist her but that she should not need to be assisted and that she should be independently able to get off her bus safely without fear of being mowed down by a cyclist going by because it is not clear who has right of way. I ask that no more of these bus stops be created and that the ones that are there be addressed because they are a danger for anybody with a visual impairment or mobility and for any other pedestrian. A child could run out in front of a cyclist to get on a bus. They are also a danger to cyclists because there could be a collision.

We want to see active travel, more people using public transport and more people cycling in a safe way, but that is not safe. It needs to be addressed. There was no proper consultation with DPOs around those bus stops.

Another issue raised with me was that bus stops used to be yellow in order that they could be easily seen. Suddenly, that has been changed for no reason, also without consultation. They are now grey with a small amount of yellow on them. That is not sufficient. People need to be able to see them.

I do not have many issues in respect of trains because, unfortunately, where I live, in Cavan, we do not have any trains. Nor do we have any trains in Monaghan, which is the other county I represent. If I need to get on a train, I have to go to Longford or up to Dunboyne. I have used the Dunboyne one to get into the city, to matches and such, and it is great. I would love to know if there are any plans to expand and bring a train service back into Cavan. There was a service there at one time but the then Government, with no foresight, decided to close it down and let people build over the tracks.

Many issues have been brought up. I welcome the progress that has been made but, as Senator Clonan pointed out, we are still leaving disabled people out. If two wheelchair users want to socialise together, they cannot travel together on a bus because it will not take two of them. There are still a lot of issues to address to make sure there is seamless universal access.

Ms Anne Graham:

There were many issues raised there. In terms of the so-called "island bus stops", we did a lot of consultation around these bus stops with all communities. We brought together cyclist representatives and users as well as representatives of different disability groups to try to work out the most appropriate way to ensure that there was safe cycling infrastructure, because currently cyclists are engaging with buses, either in a bus lane or on the road, or the cycling infrastructure is off-road and cyclists are engaging with pedestrians. We have looked at and engaged on our designs. We have put in place different things to slow down cyclists as they are approaching a bus stop. There is a facility that a signalised crossing can be put in place for pedestrians at certain locations if it is believed, from a safety point of view, that is required. We have adapted our design to ensure we have the most safe solution that works for all users - pedestrians, cyclists and public transport users - to try to reduce the conflict between all those different users of the road space.

The primary conflict currently is between the cyclist and the bus because they are currently using the road space. It is appropriate that we provide segregated cycling facilities. The bus needs to be adjacent to the footpath. It is about trying to balance all the users of the road space to provide the safest possible solution. This is the solution that we believe is the best for all users.

As I said, we consulted-----

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am sorry, but-----

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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I would like to come in on this point.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----we had a lot of disabled people in here last Monday week for a full day and that issue came up.

Ms Anne Graham:

I understand the concerns that have been raised.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Just one second, let the Deputy-----

Ms Anne Graham:

What I am saying is that we are trying to ensure the best solution. It is not the optimum solution but we have to balance the uses of the road space between pedestrians, cyclists and public transport users-----

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Everybody has a right to use the road space.

Ms Anne Graham:

-----and we have to look at the safety of all users.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Hold a second. The Vice Chairman wants to come in there.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I understand we need cycle lanes that are safe for cyclists and we need spaces for buses and other traffic, but we also need people to be able to get on and off buses safely. They cannot do so at present in many locations. I am not saying they are all bad but there are some locations that they feel are really dangerous. I referred to the person who told me about getting off a bus and the bus driver going over and above his duty to ensure she was safe. As she said, he should not have to do that. It is not that she is not appreciative, but she should be able to get on the bus by herself. People should be facilitated to be independent. I am sure the same situation arises in other countries where there are far more cyclists.

Ms Anne Graham:

A similar type of infrastructure is provided in those countries.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There must be stops or something. There has to be some sort of a safe way to cross.

Ms Anne Graham:

We have looked at this in great detail. We would not invest in the level of infrastructure or put something forward for planning unless we considered that this was the only solution available currently. If we place the cycle track up against where people live, one has a cycle track adjacent to where people might be accessing their drive or coming out in their car, and that is a safety risk. If it is on the outside - the furthest away from the road - then one has the space for the pedestrian adjacent to the bus stop. What we have done is put the pedestrian on the left-hand side, the cycle lane in between and then the bus stop. The bus stop has to be adjacent to the road for passengers to be able to board the bus. It is not easy to provide a solution when there are many different users at a particular location and we are trying to provide a safe solution for all of those users. As I said, we have adapted our design to ensure that the cyclist has to yield at those particular floating bus stops if there is somebody crossing to that space. We have put rumble strips in place. It will be ramped. There will be signals in place in some locations so that cyclists will have to yield and stop if somebody is crossing.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is "Yield" written on the cycle lane? How does a cyclist know he or she is supposed to yield?

Ms Anne Graham:

There is a light to stop them and there is a "Yield" sign-----

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I have noticed any lights at bus stops.

Ms Anne Graham:

These are the proposed improvements that we are putting in place as part of the design that are coming forward as part of BusConnects.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome that because we need something.

Ms Anne Graham:

It is a challenge to provide space when there are so many different users of the road space. We went through many different ways of trying to get the safest solution that we could come up with based on all the different users and this is the approach that is being taken. It is being taken on an international basis. The island bus stop is a feature to try to take the cyclist off-road because it is a dangerous position for cyclists to be in, engaging with not only bus traffic but also car traffic. It is trying to reduce the conflict as much as possible and provide safe systems of crossing where that conflict is an issue for those who may have a disability.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I do not accept that there was good and proper consultation done on this beforehand.

Ms Anne Graham:

There was a lot of consultation.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I was told about a meeting attended by representatives of cyclists and people with disabilities. When they could not agree, the NTA decided to do its own thing.

Ms Anne Graham:

We had to find a solution. We are in the position-----

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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One meeting is hardly consultation.

Ms Anne Graham:

There were no suggestions of what could be an alternative-----

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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It is not their responsibility to come up with solutions.

Ms Anne Graham:

-----and we had to come up with what we considered to be the best engineering solutions.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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For cyclists over the safety of other passengers.

Ms Anne Graham:

I do not accept that.

Deputy Tully also raised the colour of the bus stops. We engaged on that and we put up a yellow carousel. There is yellow around the head plate as well. There is a significant amount of yellow on the TFI bus stop. It is not a yellow pole but there is a means of identifying for those with a visual impairment that it is a bus stop. We engaged for a significant amount of time. We engaged regarding poles on the bus, yellow at the front of the bus and yellow around the door to identify where the location is. In many cases, we have adapted the colours on various aspects of our infrastructure to ensure that it is much more visible and there is better contrast for identifying the different infrastructure.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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People who have a visual impairment are telling me these things; it is not that I am making them up. Those people are not happy with the change.

Mr. Billy Gilpin:

I have a couple of brief comments in response to Deputy Canney. On the Deputy's comments around capacity and frequency out to the west of Ireland, we are in the process of placing into service 41 additional intercity carriages sponsored by the NTA. They will be deployed largely on intercity routes. We are also looking at service frequency. Hopefully, we will be able to alleviate some of the crowding problems which currently exist.

On the trains in Cavan, the all-Ireland rail review shows a proposal for a railway line running from Portadown via Cavan to Mullingar. The as, when and if are a long way down the tracks - excuse the pun - but that is one of the proposals.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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We heard it here first.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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It should also be noted that a lot of work is being done in Ceannt Station, which will also transform accessibility.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the witnesses. There is a great deal to say about inaccessible transport. We have to be really realistic here. Much of the time, public transport in Ireland is completely inaccessible and unwelcoming for many people. Best intentions and good work are all very positive and welcome but we have to be real. People with disabilities contact me because they feel unsafe and unwelcome on public transport.

For people who are visually impaired and waiting on a train platform, it is a problem when there are no announcements because they cannot see the board. There should be a way for them to identify what platform they are on. I know a lady who got on the wrong train because the platform was changed at the last minute and she ended up in Bray instead of travelling in the opposite direction. That may be a small matter but it is a huge safety issue for someone. The woman was sitting on a train when she heard the next stop was Tara Street, whereas she thought it would be Drogheda. We can imagine how lost she felt.

I very much welcome the changing places. We need more of them. It is strange that we are now celebrating allowing people to urinate with dignity. That is a sad statement. We should not have to celebrate getting changing places toilets. Will this basic facility be rolled out in every station? We should not be celebrating people being able to use toilets. How many toilets have been put in under the changing places initiative over the past number of years and how many are planned?

The NTA witnesses and I will disagree on many things. The NTA has to up its game on accessibility. It has to understand what accessibility is and accept it. Does it have a definition of accessibility? How does it rate accessibility?

On taxis, how many accessible taxi licences have been awarded in recent years? Have incentives been offered to increase the number of accessible taxis? Ms Graham mentioned that there a requirement could be made on one of these loops to have consideration for people and give way to people in wheelchairs or with disabilities. It could be done but will it be done? Will we get a commitment to do that this evening? Public transport services feature signs asking people to give way to people with disabilities and show consideration for other people’s accessibility issues.

As regards the scheme for a private accessible fleet, Ms Graham stated there was a consultation in 2019 and that the NTA has includes such considerations in licence agreements. Does the NTA have timelines as to when that will be done? Ms Graham said work was done on this in 2019. Why does that work have to be redone? What is wrong with the work that was done in 2019?

On the consultation the NTA is undertaking in the second quarter of 2024, what are the framework and terms of reference for the consultation? Is the NTA consulting people with disabilities? Does consulting mean getting people in a room and if they cannot agree, the NTA will move on and do what it sees fit?

We know from parliamentary questions submitted in the past couple of years that the NTA does not set out regulations or mandatory accessibility requirements for designers. It uses guidance documents instead. There is different guidance on accessibility. The NTA is responsible for public transport as far as it allows people with disabilities the freedom to live and to have the audacity to have a job and a social life. How is it working in relation to the contradictory accessibility guidelines that are out there?

With regard to the floating islands, it seems that no agreement was reached and priority was given to cyclists, with the safety of those with disabilities de-prioritised. Cyclists can get off a bike but a person who is visually impaired cannot see and a person in a wheelchair cannot get out of a wheelchair. How many bus islands will be installed in the next three to six months? Who will be liable for accidents on bus routes? Somebody will be seriously injured and I am not sure if Ms Graham is aware of the Irish Wheelchair Association’s Getting Nowhere publication. I suggest she read it and check on the IWA's website how much public transport infrastructure the NTA is responsible for. The NTA is taking a retrograde step and disincentivising people with disabilities from using public transport. We now have someone who has lived and worked in Dublin and travelled around the city for her entire life no longer using public transport because of the bus islands. She cannot see bus stops because the colour has changed from yellow to grey. Ms Graham said they are now yellow. She can see yellow but she is not visually impaired.

Ms Anne Graham:

I know.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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She has glasses and her eyesight can be fixed. People cannot fix or rectify a visual impairment and they cannot see these signs. That is what we are hearing from people with visual impairments. This is hugely concerning.

Going back to the design guidance, there are contradictions between the national cycling manual and other guidance. Where is the NTA getting its guidance and what is its definition of accessibility? Public bodies have an obligation to ensure that services provided to the public are accessible. To be honest, the NTA is failing in its obligations under the UNCRPD and its public sector duty. It is not about equal access but about equity. The NTA needs to be its game massively.

Ms Anne Graham:

I am sorry the Senator feels that way about the work we are doing to try to make our services equal. She and I will not agree on the guidelines on the island bus stops.

I do not have the figures for how many are going to be installed but I can get them for the Senator.

We did engage on the cycle manual. I am not sure what the Senator means when she speaks of contradictory guidance. We produced the guidance in relation to active travel which looks at how to provide active travel alongside public transport services. It allows for floating islands but we are not saying that is an ideal solution. It is the best solution we could come up with in order to ensure safe cycling infrastructure and pedestrian access to bus stops for those who are using our public transport services. It was the best solution we could come up with at that time and is provided not just in Ireland but in other jurisdictions as well. We are not saying it is perfect but what we are saying is that we are trying to improve the accessibility of those services by ensuring that cyclists will be required to slow down and to stop and putting that in place. That is not available in other jurisdictions. That is something we have added to the design to ensure we can provide the safest infrastructure possible.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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When will they be added?

Ms Anne Graham:

They are being added at the moment. We have to ask the Department to amend the regulations to allow for a traffic light at those particular locations. The signs manual currently requires a high pole in four locations at a crossing and we are looking to reduce the pole for a pedestrian level crossing. That is not available in the signs manual but as soon as that is in place, we will be putting them on the street. We are trying to adapt to come up with the best solution for all users and are always open to any suggestions on how we can make things even safer.

We believe we have the best option in terms of providing information at bus stops and ensuring those bus stops can be seen. The head plate, which is where the information is, and the carousel are outlined in yellow. They stand out and are distinguishable from other infrastructure on the street. I accept that some people do not agree that they are as visually distinctive as the yellow poles would have been. The poles were the solution for Dublin but were not being provided outside of that county. A different colour was being used but we are trying to standardise the bus stops to ensure they are visible at a distance.

Mr. Billy Gilpin:

The Senator makes several points that are relevant to Iarnród Éireann, one of which is the importance of timely and accurate passenger information. Our current endeavours in this area are to improve the information systems on the trains. We have done DART+ and are doing our Cork fleet. The information displays in a number of our stations have been greatly improved but the technology that drives that still needs renewal and upgrading and we are working with our funders to get that done. I fully appreciate that there are issues. Our new way-finding information system, which I know will not support everybody, has been rolled out across the vast majority of our stations.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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That is very welcome.

Mr. Billy Gilpin:

We are improving that because it is absolutely critical. Regarding changing places, where there are opportunities because we are doing upgrades and there is funding available, and where it is technically feasible, we will put in accessible changing places. We hope to have at least one changing place location on every route as a starting point and then we will roll out more as and when it becomes feasible.

Ms Wendy Thompson:

The Senator asked how many wheelchair accessible vehicles had been brought in over the last couple of years. In 2023, there were only 469 WAVs introduced, which was very disappointing for us. That was because of global supply and parts issues and was completely outside of our control. Prior to that, obviously, we had Covid as well. If I may, I will bring the Senator back to 2019, which was our last proper year. A total of 972 WAVs came on stream that year, out of a total of 1,289 new licences. So far this year, as of last Friday, we had 204 new WAV licences enter the fleet, so it is looking really good for this year in terms of getting back to 2019 levels or thereabouts. Parts are still really difficult to come by but there is less of a problem with the vehicles themselves. The difficulties with vehicles are caused by a combination of various geopolitical issues and Covid but also Brexit, which many people forget. The latter gives rise to non-conformity certificates and so on and we are working really hard with our counterparts to address that.

Over 21% of taxis are wheelchair accessible at the moment. Under the sustainable mobility programme, we have a commitment to increase that figure by 25% by 2025. In total, our grants have brought in about 4,000 WAVs since they were introduced in 2014. In 2023, we increased the level of grants which were on a scale from €7,000 to €17,500. When the grant was introduced initially, it covered the difference in cost between the purchase of a saloon vehicle and a wheelchair accessible one but the costs have changed greatly since then. As we know, costs have changed dramatically everywhere but particularly in this field, so the grant is now up to €17,500 for a petrol or diesel vehicle and up to €42,500 for an electric WAV. That is one of the incentives.

Training is also a hugely important for taking away the fear that many drivers have in this area. We make training available, but not just for WAV drivers. Since 1 January, online disability awareness training has been available to drivers across the board. This training is for every new driver who comes into the fleet. In that training we make sure drivers know about compliance, fines and so on. The maximum permissible age for a wheelchair accessible vehicle is 15 years, whereas for saloon vehicles it is ten years. That acts as an extra incentive. We also have a prohibition on new licences for saloon vehicles in the taxi or hackney field, except for those very specific local-area hackneys to address rural isolation, of which there are 25 in Ireland. I hope that answers the Senator's questions.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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Could the NTA write to the committee on the timeline for private schemes and explain the issue with 2019?

Mr. Jeremy Ryan:

Just to answer the 2019 question, we needed to go out to the industry again to find out the current state of play with the accessible fleet. The 2019 data was out of date, which is why we had to do it again. On the issue of consultation, that will happen in quarter 2 and we will be consulting disability groups and disabled people.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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Could the NTA provide the committee with the terms of reference and information on the timelines? When can we expect to see accessibility become mandatory? The NTA has the power to insist and that is what we need. Carrots do not always work and accessibility needs a push.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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The voting block in the Dáil will be called in a minute. I thank all of our guests for coming in for this interesting discussion. It is very clear from members' contributions that there is an awful lot of work to be done in this area. I am somewhat concerned about whether the witnesses are fully aware of the UNCRPD and the importance of compliance with same. I accept that we are starting from a very low base and that there are significant challenges but we have to accept that what we have at the moment is not working. For a lot of people with disabilities, accessible transport is their main route out of isolation and into their communities. There are lots of transport issues, including the problematic attitudes of some individuals within existing services which need to be stamped out.

The concerns that members have raised about design are important but nobody has a complete understanding of universal design. We need to make sure that the disabled persons organisations, the self-advocates and individuals are listened to in regard to their challenges. There is an awful lot that needs to be done. We get a lot of complaints, not just about the services that are being provided but also about the way they are being provided. There is a lot of work to be done in that regard. Local Link, for example, is not accessible for people with disabilities. Some bus services are not wheelchair accessible but accessibility needs to be universal. I urge our guests to take on board what members have said, loudly and clearly, today. It was based on information we got from various witnesses who appeared before this committee. At our meeting of Monday, 8 April in particular, we heard a lot of concerns about transport. I am delighted to hear that the new train carriages will have wheelchair accessibility. Whenever I travel by train, I see - for want of a better word - the commotion involved in organising to get somebody in a wheelchair on and off the train. That is not dignified and it needs to be improved. We have a lot of work to do.

I thank our guests for their engagement this evening. We look forward to their continued co-operation and work with us. I thank members and the committee secretariat as well.