Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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We have apologies from Deputies Frankie Feighan and Senator Tom Clonan. The purpose of today's meeting is to discuss the UNCRPD at local level and community development. On behalf of the committee, I welcome representatives from Pobal: Anna Shakespeare, the chief executive; Paul Skinnader, the director of social inclusion and employment opportunities; and Delia Goodman, national manager of Better Start. We also have representatives from Enterprise Ireland: Donal Leahy, department manager for strategic policy, and Greg Swift, the head of enterprise at the Dublin city local enterprise office. They are very welcome to the committee.

Before we begin, witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on or make charges against a person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity and they are directed to discontinue their remarks, it is imperative that they comply with such direction. Members are reminded of that selfsame long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside of the Houses in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. To be fair to members, they have been in full compliance with that practice even though they may have been challenged in that regard from time to time. Despite this, they have kept to that practice. Members who are joining remotely have to be within the confines of Leinster House before they can speak.

I call on Ms Shakespeare to deliver her opening statement.

Ms Anna Shakespeare:

I thank the Cathaoirleach for the opportunity to present to the committee this evening I am the chief executive of Pobal and am joined by my colleagues, Delia Goodman, the national manager of Better Start, and Paul Skinnader, the director of social inclusion and employment operations.

As the committee will be aware, Pobal works on behalf of Government to support communities and local organisations towards achieving social inclusion and community development. We provide grant management and support services to 41 programmes in the areas of social inclusion and employment and early years and young people. We administer these programmes on behalf of seven Government Departments and a number of EU bodies.

As a company, our vision is to create an equal and inclusive society in partnership with Government and communities. As an agency working with disadvantaged communities nationwide, including individuals and families with a disability, we are really grateful for this opportunity to consider the role local structures can play in ensuring participation and inclusion of persons with disabilities. As time is limited, I will focus on a few key areas of opportunity grounded in our programmatic data.

Regarding Articles 24 and 7, which relate to education and children, Pobal recognises that ensuring full participation of people with disabilities in their communities necessitates person-centred and inclusive services from childhood onwards. The right to education is a prerequisite for the exercise of many other rights under the convention. Since its inception in 2016, the access and inclusion model, a policy initiative of the Department of children that is implemented by Pobal, has sought to provide an inclusive environment and ensure that all children with disabilities can benefit from high quality early learning and care in the community alongside their peers. One factor that has been critical to the success of AIM is that it takes a child-centred and needs-based approach and does not require a medical diagnosis. This has been really successful in supporting the inclusion and meaningful participation of children with disabilities in mainstream preschool, enabling timely targeted supports to be delivered to almost 30,000 young Irish children to date. An independent evaluation of this programme has demonstrated its effectiveness, notwithstanding its identification of areas for improvement, which is normal in any evaluation, and there are plans to extend the programme into full-day care in September 2024. My colleague, Ms Goodman, can tell the committee a little bit more about that.

Moving to Articles 19 and 30, which relate to independent living, community inclusion and participation in cultural life, community development work is vital in ensuring that our communities are liveable and accessible spaces for everyone, including men, women and children with disabilities. Programmes like the social inclusion and community activation programme, SICAP, with which many committee members will be familiar, and the community services programme are important levers for inclusion at a local level and can provide a solid foundation for more targeted work in a given locality or sector.

SICAP is designed to ensure partnership with local communities, relevant stakeholders and State agencies. Some 421 community groups supported by SICAP worked with people with disabilities in the programme period of 2018 to 2023. Alongside this, approximately 11,000 SICAP participants were individuals with disabilities. The supports provided are again needs-based and include practical supports like day-to-day money management skills training, creativity workshops and employment and training. For new communities, the new Irish, SICAP has also played an important signposting role as those families try to navigate local disability services.

Regarding Article 27, which relates to work and employment, as the committee will be more than aware, Ireland has one of the lowest rates of employment for people with disabilities in the EU and the EU’s largest disability employment gap.

Targeted employability support programmes, such as the ability programme and the forthcoming workability programme, are critical for creating opportunities for disabled people to progress into education and training while also enhancing communication skills and confidence. Crucially, they are also effective for enhancing employers' understanding of the benefits associated with equality, diversity and inclusion and the embedding of good practice.

In summary, there are specific approaches which can support the implementation of the UNCRPD at a local level. We know broader social inclusion programmes play a role in building capacity and inclusion at a local level. Alongside these, however, our learning is there is a need for targeted and tailored supports to enable people to be successful.

Partnership is central to developing community-based inclusion. The approaches outlined in the opening statement are underpinned by local collaboration between all stakeholders, community, voluntary and statutory, and with consultation and implementation with people with disabilities being key. This collaboration enables significant synergies between programmes at local level and can be an important lever for the convention and its successful implementation.

Finally, it is of critical importance for this committee to consider the disproportionate levels of disabilities across communities in Ireland, which is recent information from a Pobal perspective. Using the Pobal HP deprivation index and the Central Statistics Office data, we have examined disability rates nationwide and those living in very disadvantaged areas are twice as likely to have a disability as their peers in very affluent areas. That is a stark finding and while stark, it provides an opportunity for us to consider place-based targeted interventions and resources to be directed to where they will be most effective. Pobal is committed to working with the Government, State agencies and communities to ensure full equality and inclusion for people with disabilities. My colleagues and I are more than happy to assist the committee and take any questions that it might have on the information presented in the supporting documents.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Shakespeare. We will now hear from Mr. Leahy.

Mr. Donal Leahy:

I thank the Chair. I am a strategic policy manager with Enterprise Ireland and I am here with my colleague Mr. Greg Swift, who is with our sister organisation, namely, the local enterprise offices. We have prepared a joint opening statement to cover both organisations. I will provide an overview of Enterprise Ireland. Our purpose is to help Irish companies to start, grow, innovate and win export sales. We work with internationally-focused Irish enterprises across all sectors of the economy, predominantly with small and medium enterprises, supporting them to strengthen their competitiveness and productivity, increase innovation and realise their growth potential, contributing to employment and economic growth across all regions. We also work with a network of 31 local enterprise offices, LEOs, through our centre of excellence, to support the growth of microenterprises across the country.

I will now provide an overview of the local enterprise offices. They are the first-stop shop for businesses, providing a signposting service for supports available to SMEs, and providing high quality supports for business ideas. The mission of the LEOs is to promote entrepreneurship, foster business start-ups and support and develop micro and small businesses to drive job creation.

The LEOs, which have 31 dedicated teams across the local authority network in Ireland, offer a wide range of experience, skills and services. They have five core goals which are: to drive the development of local enterprise; to drive and support business start-ups and promote a can-do business culture; to increase the job potential of new and existing micro and small businesses; to increase the number of innovative businesses with potential to export; and to be proactive in response to the needs of clients. A key action of the local enterprise offices is the promotion of inclusion and accessibility in entrepreneurship, particularly among underrepresented groups.

The overall approach to employment and entrepreneurship for people with a disability between the agencies is that we are committed to equality, diversity and inclusion. Enterprise Ireland and the LEOs have a range of specific programmes and initiatives to increase labour market participation and entrepreneurship among people with a disability. Both organisations also have active programmes to ensure diversity and inclusion within their own organisations. Our work in this important field encompasses four main areas, drawing on Article 27 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, which focuses on work and employment. The four areas are: access, that is, ensuring that our programmes and supports are available for people with a disability; education, that is, working with partners to provide people with a disability the skills and confidence required to start an entrepreneurial journey; information, that is, promoting the benefits of inclusion and diversity in recruitment practices among the companies we support; and opportunity, that is, working to embed the principles of equality, diversity and inclusion and to provide employment and entrepreneurship opportunities to people from across society, including people with a disability.

I will now outline of a number of programmes and initiatives in which we currently are involved to achieve our goals in this area. First, the promotion of entrepreneurship for people with disabilities is a new LEO-supported initiative. The LEOs have partnered with Technological University Dublin to host and deliver a new online course on entrepreneurship for people with disabilities. The programme is open to anyone who self-identifies as having a disability and wishes to start his or her own business. The initiative was co-funded and is proudly supported by the Open Doors Initiative. The new course builds on the experience and outcome of a pilot programme delivered by TUD and supported by partners, including the LEOs, in 2021 and 2022. Twenty places are available on the programme, which consists of 12 two-hour lectures delivered online. Applications for the course will open on 1 June this year.

The experience gained through the pilot programme has been used to inform the new course offered by TUD. The programme is supported by AIB and there is no fee for participants. Other partners include the Disability Federation of Ireland, DoTheFinancials.com, Microfinance Ireland and SimVenture. In addition, TU Dublin is currently developing a set of online resources on entrepreneurship for persons with disabilities that will include an e-learning module. These resources will be shared across 31 LEO offices once they come to hand in early June.

LEOs have engaged with the Open Doors Initiative to provide disability awareness training for LEO staff beginning in April 2024. The objectives of this training include creating disability awareness within the LEOs, broadening LEO staff understanding of disability beyond visible disabilities, exploring the barriers faced by people with disabilities in a work context, providing guidance on supporting an employee or colleague with a disability and increasing the recruitment and retention of employees with disabilities. I believe there was a session this morning on these very topics.

LEO disability champions is another initiative. The LEOs are seeking nominations from across the LEO network for an executive to undertake the role of disability champion. This will ensure that the LEOs continue to develop initiatives, share knowledge and act as liaison with disability advocacy organisations.

Enterprise Ireland also has a partnership with the Open Doors Initiative. In 2022 we signed a partnership agreement with the initiative, which provides opportunities to some of the marginalised members of society. It creates pathways to work through training, education, employment and entrepreneurship. Enterprise Ireland has provided mentors for five Open Doors Initiative mentoring programmes since January 2023 and it has been a great success for both participants and mentors. We recently completed disability awareness training workshops with employers for change, which is a programme of the Open Doors Initiative. Alongside an existing programme, in the coming months we intend to use our partnership to progress the establishment of a work placement programme for persons from marginalised communities, including people with a disability. We have plans, working in partnership with the Open Doors Initiative, to develop awareness campaigns and programmes that will utilise success stories of self-employed and entrepreneur role models with a variety of disabilities.

At the Enterprise Ireland summit in April 2023 we were delighted that the Open Doors Initiative CEO, Jeanne McDonagh, chaired a panel featuring representatives from organisations such as AsIAm, Change is Possible, the Public Appointments Service and Inclusio, which focused on unlocking the benefits of equality, diversity and inclusion.

The Enterprise Ireland new frontiers programme is Ireland’s national entrepreneurial development programme delivered through the technological universities and institutes of technology across 18 locations. Enterprise Ireland continues to work with the new frontiers programme teams to make the programme more accessible to people with disabilities. Phase 1 of the programme is now delivered virtually, which is more accessible. Phase 2 requires participants to attend workshops within colleges, with each of the colleges having individual policies on disability.

I will now provide information on employment incentives and recruitment in Enterprise Ireland companies. Enterprise Ireland promotes the employment supports offered by the Department of Social Protection, including supports for hiring people with a disability, through its Intreo service. We have communicated directly with client companies highlighting the supports available and include up-to-date Intreo information on our website. We have also promoted these supports in our weekly client e-zine.

On supporting entrepreneurs with a disability and on products or services for people with a disability, both the LEOs and Enterprise Ireland work to ensure that their entrepreneurial, mentoring and capability supports are available to all emerging entrepreneurs, including people with a disability. We have backed entrepreneurs and companies led by people with a disability and companies and entrepreneurs that provide innovative solutions for people with a disability. Prominent examples include a Dublin-based software company with a mission to make buildings more accessible, a Dublin-based award-winning brand with global ambition and a product that transforms a medical device into a piece of fashion and self-expression, a company that has developed a revolutionary reading programme based on a globally-recognised method for children with dyslexia and a new Limerick-based company that aims to make access to hospitality and other venues easier for people with disabilities. The product offering of the business will be an easily-fitted kit for transforming regular bathrooms into disabled bathrooms temporarily in just a few minutes.

In conclusion, Enterprise Ireland and the LEOs are committed to enhancing employment and entrepreneurial opportunities for people with a disability. As public sector agencies, Enterprise Ireland and the LEOs are dedicated to upholding equality and human rights principles in their activities, interactions with stakeholders and provision of services in line with our public sector, equality and human rights duties. In the programmes we deliver, either individually or with partners, we endeavour to ensure that people of all abilities can access the range of supports we offer. I thank members for their attention and look forward to their questions.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Leahy. We will go without further ado to our Vice Chairperson, Deputy Tully.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their opening statements. To start with Pobal, I acknowledge the AIM programme. It does vital work and supports many young children with additional needs in preschool, playschool and before they go to school. It is a model that could be continued to primary and secondary level, instead of relying on a diagnosis for supports. That should be looked at.

How does Pobal consult with DPOs and disabled people on the programmes it delivers? It is important disabled people have an input from the start and that programmes are not designed to meet the needs we think they have, but that we talk to disabled people and recognise that, under the UNCRPD, they or their representative organisations have a right to be part of engagement and consultation from the start.

Ms Shakespeare referenced WorkAbility. Will she expand on that? It sounds like it will be very good.

Accessibility is important and often when we think of accessibility we think of the physical building but it is not always about that. It is also about online resources. Ms Shakespeare mentioned online courses that Pobal delivers. On the EU web accessibility directive, Pobal had an accessibility score of 17.33. How can it improve on that and ensure websites are accessible? Many people with a disability may rely on that. They may have an intellectual disability and need easy read. Visual impairments and other disabilities should all be accommodated.

How do Enterprise Ireland and the LEOs engage with DPOs in the programmes they deliver? I welcome that the LEOs are working to deliver a new online course in conjunction with TUD. That is important. The committee has heard from disabled people that there are many supports for employers to employ a disabled person but the same supports do not exist for disabled people to employ themselves. Their needs are often very different. They may be to do with chronic pain. They may be unable to work full days. They need tailored supports to ensure they can start their own business. That online course will be very good but what if it is oversubscribed? It is for 20 people. Do the witnesses envisage that is enough? It is maybe a recognition that to date the LEOs are not meeting the requirements of disabled people, so it is good to do that.

Ms Shakespeare mentioned the Pobal HP Deprivation Index and that people in disadvantaged areas are twice as likely to have a disability. If that is turned around, people with a disability are twice as likely to be poor. Employment rates for disabled people in this country are shocking, as Ms Shakespeare said, and we know that. We are the worst in Europe. There is a significant cost of disability so many disabled people are poor and struggling. Because of their disability and the lack of supports, they end up living in poverty. It is not that you are more likely because you are poor to have disability, it is the other way around.

Ms Anna Shakespeare:

I will start and hand over in due course to my colleagues who are subject-matter experts in some of the areas.

In terms of the consultation, we published a guide to inclusive community engagement in local planning and decision-making in 2022. It was launched by the Minister of State, Deputy Joe O'Brien, and developed in partnership with the Department of Rural and Community Development, local development companies, Pobal and stakeholders, that is, individuals with disabilities and individuals for marginalised communities. We use that as a guide and template in terms of how we consult with disability provider organisations or other marginalised groups for whom community development is an area of interest and with whom we work. Guide number one was published and updated on the basis of our experience of implementing it. Late last year, it was raised at the national civic forum by the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, as to the way communities should be consulted with. Mr. Skinnader might be in a position to give additional information.

We have done some pilot projects in it. We apply the principles of the consultation process as set out in the document. There is always learning in relation to that. It can be used to identify, for example, who should be involved in a community consultation and how you might go about supporting them, working with them and making sure they are meaningfully involved, meaningfully communicated with and meaningfully supported should they need that as part of the communication process. That is well-documented and set out in an accessible document with case studies and exemplars so that local community organisations, not just Pobal and other State agencies, can use it as a resource.

Mr. Paul Skinnader:

In the programmes we deliver and the application processes for the organisations we support, they have to engage with the people we are going to support. That is a requirement of the application process. It is part of the translation of policy into programme development that the application process to any of the programmes has to be based on the needs of those with a disability.

WorkAbility is an interesting programme that is a follow-on to the Ability programme. WorkAbility is co-financed by ESF and led by the Department of Social Protection. It has a budget of more than €30 million and opened in 2023 for applications. Projects that have applied will run from the beginning of this year to the end of 2028. Ability was a programme to support people with disabilities into employment and training. The evaluation of that programme identified that other things needed to be done for any follow-on programme. The aim of this particular programme is to ensure people with disabilities are fully supported to find and maintain employment and that the organisations who employ programme participants are supported to ensure their employment is successful.

More than 50 organisations applied and 50 organisations have been supported. That is a mix of local, regional and national projects that focus on bringing people with disabilities aged 16 years and older who are not work-ready or distant from the labour market closer to the labour market. It has really just begun as a programme. It has fairly clear objectives around improving the employability, increasing the employment rates, which we know are low, and facilitating the career progression of participants.

There is a real effort to engage more with employers in order to encourage and support them to develop more accessible and inclusive workplaces and also an effort to pilot new and innovative initiatives to support people with disabilities into employment. It has just begun as a five-year initiative. That is important, and was one of the lessons from the previous programme. People and organisations need time in order to be able to support those with a disability into employment. It has quite an ambitious target, with more than 13,000 participants in the programme. We recently had two events with the organisations, one in Limerick and one in Dublin. We received interesting feedback on what support they are seeking from us, what they are seeking to do among themselves to network and also the kinds of supports they will seek to provide to people with disabilities. We are at the start but it is a really interesting programme.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is that countrywide?

Mr. Paul Skinnader:

Yes. I can send the list of organisations that have been successful. There are national, local and regional organisations. It is a good mix.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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We would appreciate any information.

Mr. Paul Skinnader:

Yes, we will send that in.

Ms Anna Shakespeare:

We acknowledge the poor findings on the accessibility of our website. We have reprocured for a website redesign and that is about to go live. The issue was that we carried a lot of PDF documentation on the website, which is a challenge for individuals, particularly those with visual impairment. We are actively working on that in 2024 as a project to improve it. We fully accept the findings from the NDA and we are implementing the required areas for improvement.

As the Deputy expressed an interest in the AIM programme, I will ask my colleague, Ms Goodman, to let her know more about the plans for 2024 and 2025 for the further development of AIM.

Ms Delia Goodman:

I thank Deputy Tully for the acknowledgement of AIM. The programme has been successful. We have seen that from the three-year evaluation. The fact that it is a needs-led model as opposed to diagnosis-led has been really positive in terms of the inclusion of children, particularly children with disabilities, in the ECCE programme and into mainstream preschool, allowing them to be part of mainstream preschool.

Since the inception of the AIM programme in 2016, we have supported more than 30,000 children who have been in receipt of AIM support in more than 4,000 early learning and care settings. This year, we are supporting more than 8,000 children in more than 2,700 ECCE settings, which is really positive. We have a team of early years specialists working directly with the services to build the capacity of educators through a mentoring and coaching element and through educational advice and support in regard to how they can support a child's inclusion in and access to the preschool setting.

The model and the positive outcomes and findings of the evaluation identified the need for expansion of the programme. Expanding and upscaling AIM was also laid out in the First 5 whole-of-government strategy. That will happen in September 2024. The hours will increase into full-day care for those children who are in receipt of ECCE, both in term and out of term, allowing for more accessibility. That also gives families comfort as regards being able to engage in work. That will continue in terms of enabling children to access full-day care with the support of AIM. The evaluation also identified the respite and relief from stress that families get from that support.

I am happy to answer any further questions but that is a summary of what is happening. The evaluation also recognised, as regards the application process for AIM, that the second-year extension for those continuing means they have the comfort of support in the second year of ECCE without having to reapply. That process will change this year and will be simplified to enable providers to apply directly. Those children will be returning to ECCE and will require that support. We are, therefore, providing the comfort of having that support for the child in September.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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To follow on from Deputy Tully's question, has there been any discussion on the feasibility of extending the AIM programme to primary and post-primary school? Is there any engagement or discussion, in light of the simplicity of this approach and the complexity at the other side, on having it carried on?

Ms Delia Goodman:

I am not aware of any engagement on that but it is a model that could be transferred into preschool or primary school. I am not aware of any conversations in terms of the Department.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Early childhood educators are saying they do not even have an input into the child starting primary school. They have amassed so much information about a child, the supports that child needs and what works and does not work, yet there is no mechanism for transferring that information from the early childcare sector into primary school. The children's disability network teams, CDNTs, used to link primary school into post-primary school, which makes sense. There needs to be joined-up thinking between the different sectors and it is not happening.

Ms Delia Goodman:

A lot of work has been done on transitions from preschool to primary schools. We try to do much of that work and support educators in that. We have some documents such as My Inclusion Plan that can be shared with primary schools. There is also the National Council for Curriculum Development, NCCA, Mo Scéal. That can also support the transition. Let's Get Ready was developed during Covid-19 to support the transition from preschool to primary school. We know that more work needs to be done on it and that as been written into the draft autism strategy in terms of supports for early learning and care educators to support the transition of children into primary school and whether the primary school is open to accessibility information.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms Goodman.

Ms Anna Shakespeare:

The Deputy's final question related to the deprivation index. I would like to say it is as simple as that. The data is showing us that there is a really strong correlation, as shown in the briefing document. It is like a straight line graph. It shows that among individuals with a disability, 14% live in affluent areas and 30% live in a disadvantaged area. Do they live there because of their disability or is their disability a causal factor of their environment, the area where they are educated and the opportunities available? I believe the causal factors could be investigated further. There is certainly a strong correlation and it is very stark. As the Deputy said, is it because their lived reality is socioeconomic disadvantage, poverty and a poor living environment, which are all the factors that we collect within the deprivation index, or are there other factors in play?

Ms Delia Goodman:

Many tend to depend on social protection payments because they cannot work as there are not proper supports available to get them into work. It can be looked at both ways.

Ms Anna Shakespeare:

There is certainly a very strong correlation. I spoke to a colleague earlier today whose PhD topic is on the causal factors. Her research is interesting.

Mr. Donal Leahy:

I thank the Deputy for the question. I will address a couple of points. Luckily we revamped our website in the past year so it now meets the compatibility requirements.

Whether I would have had the same answer for the Deputy a year ago is another question, so the timing was good there.

Addressing the point about how we consult with disabled people and their representative organisations, there are several routes for that. As well as following the rules, our partnership with the Open Doors Initiative gives us a huge amount of information and advice and enables us to see what we do not see. That helps us enormously. An important part of that is the Employers for Change programme and the advice that gives us. Another aspect of it is the fact that we are gathering data using the organisation Inclusio. At the end of 2023, we carried out a very extensive equality, diversity and inclusion survey. At the moment, we are cleaning up the data gathered so a report has not yet been produced. While that exercise will not solve any problems, as such, it will give us a baseline indication of where we are at. We are going to use that data so that as well as the human side of things, we will have metrics to see how well we are doing or not doing. Another aspect of getting advice and being informed by the end users is Enterprise Ireland's membership of a new stakeholder and client working group that will develop an approach for reasonable accommodations. That initiative is being led by the Public Appointments Service and by being part of that process, Enterprise Ireland is being informed by people with disabilities. The intention of the project is to transform the approach to reasonable accommodations for candidates with disabilities. The plan is that there will be a pilot programme in 2024 arising from that working group. That is how we get advice from stakeholders.

In terms of supports for entrepreneurs, the UN convention only mentions entrepreneurs once or twice but they are mentioned. We are working on a campaign to enhance the visibility of entrepreneurs with disabilities. A number of prominent, successful entrepreneurs, who do not need much encouragement, are involved. Committee members will probably be aware of them. A number of them are clients of Enterprise Ireland and LEOs. We will conduct a campaign with them so that people will see it and know that they can be it, so to speak.

Mr. Greg Swift:

The entrepreneurship programme for persons with disabilities that was mentioned was developed by Professor Thomas Cooney from TUD in conjunction with several other organisations. I attended a number of workshops, involving various organisations, to develop that programme. The LEOs support that programme and are a partner on it. We supply mentors to the programme and also do some one-to-one activities with individuals on the programme. There is a "Dragon's Den"-type process at the end of the programme and one of our colleagues attends that, where there is presentation of LEO supports directly to the participants.

On the issue of access and Workability, the offices tend to take queries or applications from all sorts of participants. The number of people with a disability is recorded as being around 1 million, which is approximately one in five of the population. We are constantly getting people with disabilities applying to attend our courses, many of which are online these days. We regularly get people ringing our offices and if they make us aware that they have a disability, we will go about trying to provide whatever is required to enable their engagement with us. We have a panel of mentors in place and if it does not seem likely that people will be able attend one of the courses that we direct them to, we can assign a mentor to them and one-to-one activity can take place. Again, if there are special requirements, we can try to meet them.

Our website is being redesigned at the moment. We expect it to reflect best practice but it will be some time before that is in place. It is currently being redesigned and we hope to have it in place in the coming year or two. It will probably be two years before it is ready but we will be addressing some of the issues in the interim. An audit is being done on the current site and we will be trying to address issues that come up, but the site is not totally fixable.

On the course, while it does get oversubscribed, there is a screening process to determine who is best suited to attend. Again, there are those others engagements that LEOs throughout the country have to provide services.

Ms Anna Shakespeare:

I thank the Deputy for his questions. I will start with SICAP, which has two goals. It aims to support communities and target groups to engage with the relevant people who can identify and address some of their social exclusion and equality issues and to support disadvantaged individuals to improve the quality of their lives. It is underpinned by three horizontal principles: promoting an equality framework, applying a community development approach and developing collaborative approaches with stakeholders.

The SICAP programme applies a broader definition of disability than the Disability Act. It aims to target 13 different groups who are considered to be marginalised and who live in communities right across Ireland. Individuals with mental health difficulties were mentioned in particular. That is one of the target groups, and individuals with a disability. One of the really interesting things that has featured not as a mandatory component but as an elective component of the SICAP programme, and which has been implemented with great effect - I think it is being reviewed - is the My Journey tool. Where there is, for example, an individual that the Deputy mentioned, who has mental health difficulties and may be afraid to re-engage with society by virtue of their ill-health, who may be on a recovery journey and whose confidence is down on the floor, part of that journey is to document with them and support them towards a place where they even ready to consider re-engaging in the workplace.

Going back to the Deputy's point around the need for somebody to advocate for and work with them, the SICAP work is done very much on a one-to-one basis with the individual. As the Deputy knows, it is implemented really successfully by the local development companies in all areas of Ireland, and the success of the programme is certainly documented in the evaluations, the numbers that go through it, and some of the case studies that my colleague Paul might point us to, if that is helpful to the committee.

Mr. Paul Skinnader:

I can point to maybe three. One might deal with local community groups, another will deal with individuals and the other will deal with families. I will start, perhaps, with the Offaly Local Development Company. This was in 2023. It would have supported what is called the Offaly Disability Equality Network, ODEN. It has developed its capacity with the support of SICAP, with the facilitation of space to meet advocacy. Last year, it also developed its Accessible Offaly action plan. That was after many years of work to get to a place where it now has a plan to the end of 2025. That, it is understood, would be a real catalyst for change in the county. It is very much engaged in the PPN structure and the local and community development committee structure.

Second, there are lots of case studies that we could highlight across the country where, in the stats that Anna has given, there is a range of different types of supports. In the Northside Partnership, for example, 37 people participated in its Money Made Sense programme. It worked with the St. Michael's House Horizon project and Praxis Care to deliver particular financial capability training for people aged over 18 who have intellectual disabilities. It allowed them to build their day-to-day money management skills, handling cash, digital banking etc. That allowed that particular organisation, the Northside Partnership, to develop a handbook to support this work. Certainly, the overall aim of that handbook was to assist services, parents and carers to support individuals in developing the building blocks for financial independence.

The final one is from North East West Kerry Development, a local development company that supports parents of children suspected of having a learning difficulty such as ADHD, dyslexia or a learning disability. It identified a serious access issue for children and young people around many of these services. As members are aware, due to the increasing demand to fund individual educational psychological assessments from the schools in its area, a referral system was devised to ensure they are capturing individuals who are particularly disadvantaged. It sought to target people who were disadvantaged and who had a disability. Working in collaboration with the community home school liaison team, it has also ensured that the support is directed to those most at risk of slipping through the educationally disadvantaged net. The organisation went on then to further support and maximise the funding by contracting an experienced psychologist to carry out all of the assessments to ensure the service was streamlined and consistent, and to increase efficiency, cost savings and improved quality service.

These are just three examples. There is a range of case studies, which is interesting for this national programme, SICAP, where it identifies very particularly in that case study the supports that are very much targeted, and the examples - as they relate to this committee's interest this evening - around supporting those with a disability.

Ms Anna Shakespeare:

If I can be of assistance to the committee, I know Deputy Tully had an interest in the deprivation index but I think it is helpful for the committee to be aware that with regard to the SICAP allocation, there is a finite pot of money that the State has. The Department of Rural and Community Development asked us to use the deprivation index to identify the areas of Ireland that are most disadvantaged, and the relationship between disability and disadvantage we spoke of earlier, on the basis of the more disadvantaged you are, the higher the allocation will be. Then there is a targeting model that goes alongside it. With regard to the AIM programme and other programmes, there is that targeted approach, and the funding goes to the parts of Ireland where it is most needed and where there is most disadvantage. The supports, insofar as they possibly can be, are tailored to ensure the individual can be successful. They are some of the learnings from the SICAP programme to date and over the years that it has run.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Ellis. Does Mr. Leahy want to comment on Deputy Ellis's comments?

Mr. Donal Leahy:

I will indeed. I thank Deputy Ellis. I will address the point about employment and the targeted approach. There are two aspects to that. The first is employment within Enterprise Ireland. There are a couple of examples of the targeted approach we take. We have a long-running arrangement with St. Michael's House. It is a provider of services to people with intellectual disabilities. For a number of years, people in St. Michael's House have been employed by Enterprise Ireland on six-month paid work experience programmes, and I believe at least one of the people on that programme went on to become a full-time employee with Enterprise Ireland.

In addition to that, we are developing a new 12-week programme, which will be a work experience programme. The first participant for that shorter programme is expected to start in June 2024. Another example I will give is that at the moment, we are working with the Oireachtas Work Learning programme, and the idea there is to partner with it on its programme for hiring graduates of the programme. It is an applied learning development and socialisation programme for young adults with intellectual disability. That should have kicked off in 2023 but there were issues with Enterprise Ireland being able to draw from the Public Appointments Service panels. We are looking for a way around that glitch but that programme will kick off as soon as we can. These are examples of what we are doing within Enterprise Ireland for a targeted approach.

With regard to Enterprise Ireland's clients, it is a relatively easy sell in certain instances. Consistently, when we survey our clients or deal with them, the number one issue they have as a barrier to being more successful in business is hiring appropriate staff. One of the answers we have for that is that there is an untapped pool of employees. We are very prominent with our website, and we repeat the message in our communications or bulletins to client companies. Also, when the account managers in Enterprise Ireland are dealing with their clients, they say there is a problem in that they need to hire 40 or 50 staff and they cannot get them.

In combination with the very generous supports from the Department of Social Protection, through the Intreo offices, there is another solution for people to hire people with disabilities. In essence, the Intreo programme subsidises people with disabilities. Hard-nosed businesspeople who are looking for staff and just looking to make a profit are very quick to take that option up. To further their businesses, they are also, in conjunction with the Department of Social Protection supports, able to help both sides of the equation.

Mr. Donal Leahy:

No. Enterprise Ireland does not. We do have levers with employing companies. We would have agreements with them when we are providing funding and so on. We do not, though, provide targets for green credentials, disability or equality. We do not impose those types of measures. What we do is to ensure that entry to programmes for people with disabilities is on as level a playing field as possible. In our standard contract, Enterprise Ireland grant recipients are required to comply with relevant laws. If they are not meeting the minimum requirements, there is a mechanism in place to address such a situation. If the Workplace Relations Commission, or some other body, such as an independent tribunal, says those recipients are not meeting the rules, we have the ability to claw back or not provide grants. In newer instances in this regard, there are compatibility requirements for horizontal principles. I refer to ensuring these are complied with. When we are providing grants for certain schemes, the direction we are going in with them is that there is a specific requirement that EU requirements for equality and other provisions must be met. This is monitored, especially by the EU. This process may not be as direct as the Deputy would like it to be, but we do have certain provisions in place.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I call Senator McGreehan.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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It is important that we get people like the witnesses in front of the committee. I have a few general questions and then some specific ones. We will cut to the chase and get into the general questions. How many people or what percentage of people with disabilities are employed in each of the witnesses' organisations? Is this information known? Are there any specific targets for disability inclusion? I refer to programmes. What are the markers used to judge success in this regard? Have the witnesses and all their staff been provided with training in respect of equity and disability awareness?

Turning to Pobal, does the organisation have any programmes that encourage self-employment? I refer to work done to get people into self-employment. We are talking about getting people into employment. Has the organisation worked on providing training for people with disabilities to allow them to work in SICAP programmes, including delivering those programmes, in WorkAbility or, indeed, in childcare? Has training been provided to staff with disabilities to allow them to become staff members in their own right after such training?

Additionally, I note the minimum hours for the wage subsidy scheme have, thankfully, been reduced from 22 hours to 15 hours. How is this being seen as being in a positive light for people whom the witnesses' organisation has come across in its WorkAbility programmes? From listening to people, I found the 22-hour requirement was a barrier. The 15-hour stipulation now in place seems good to me, but how do the witnesses see this change based on their practical experience?

To turn back to Enterprise Ireland, how many people with disabilities have LEOs supported in the last year? This is important in terms of targets. If we do not have targets, then we are just putting out that we are supporting people without actually doing so. It was already mentioned that the LEO websites do not follow universal design and accessibility principles, so I am glad to hear this situation is being changed. TU Dublin was spoken about at length by many different organisations here. I think the TU Dublin programme used by many different organisations is something we should be supporting but it is one programme that takes on approximately 16 people annually. It is oversubscribed. There is a screening programme, but it is oversubscribed. Are there any other tailored initiatives that are delivering specifically for people with disabilities? I ask this because I note that many of the comments in the contributions included the words, "and people with disabilities". Of course, all the programmes are for everyone because it would be against the law not to be equal in this regard. Having specific, tailored programmes for people with disabilities, however, is different from just opening the door to everyone, because it is not as easy for everyone to get in the door.

There is never any representation of people with disabilities in the promotional work of the witnesses' organisation. I was glad to hear it mentioned that somebody was going to be a showcase for that context. This has, however, been going on for quite some time. We were here probably three years ago talking about the TU Dublin programme, entrepreneurship and self-employment but not a whole pile has been done in this time since we asked questions about LEOs before. Mr. Swift mentioned that if people with disabilities go into a LEO some special requirements would be delivered. What special requirements are delivered? What do these look like? Mr. Leahy mentioned some pilot programme starting in 2024. I am not sure if I missed the detail, but I ask him to elaborate on the programme.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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We will start with the witnesses from Enterprise Ireland and then come back to those from Pobal. I call Mr. Leahy.

Mr. Donal Leahy:

I thank Senator McGreehan for her questions. I will get through as many of the questions as I can. Some 4.7% of Enterprise Ireland employees self-declare as having disabilities. This is the number in this regard. Turning to the question of whether we have targets, I would not say that we do at the moment. What we are doing is the work I mentioned with Inclusio. At the end of 2023, we surveyed and we have a baseline. From that work, we are going to know where we are and we will be able to benchmark. Targets will certainly come out of this endeavour. We have the data and we use this to keep us going in respect of targets.

The Senator also asked about training for all staff. Yes, we do have that. All staff have got training. I have been on training myself. To refer back to some of the comments from Deputy Ellis in respect of why we are doing this and if staff have been trained before, the answer is that they have. Although there has always been training on diversity and equality in Enterprise Ireland, it is still necessary to do it. This is despite the fact that it has been the case for a number of years. Probably two things are driving this endeavour. One is that there are individuals in Enterprise Ireland who are passionate about disability as an issue and they realise there is a need for education in this regard from their colleagues and others. This is definitely driving this undertaking. The other thing driving it is that Enterprise Ireland is a very large organisation, with 800 or 900 people. In the context of an organisation of this size, as our HR department knows, it is important to do these things right. People, therefore, have a job to do in respect of providing this training and this is why we have brought in outside partners to provide the expertise we do not have, whether that is Inclusio or Open Doors. The upshot of why I say this was probably needed is that the culture has changed.

The penny dropped in Enterprise Ireland on the social model. It had not a number of years ago.

Moving on slightly, do we have specific programmes to deal with people with disabilities? The St. Michael's House programme we have had for a number of years is specific and targeted, so we do. In general terms, the approach Enterprise Ireland has taken has been of delivering inclusive services rather than the main thrust being the delivery of separate disability services. When we were thinking about that and whether it was the appropriate approach, we consulted the National Disability Authority which confirmed it was best practice and advised us to take that approach.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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The National Disability Authority told Enterprise Ireland that there was no need for specific positive discrimination towards people with disabilities to get them into self-employment.

Mr. Donal Leahy:

That is right. The National Disability Authority advised us that our approach is in line with best practice and that it was happy for us to take that approach.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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That is shocking to be honest.

Mr. Donal Leahy:

I hear the Senator.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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It is disappointing from the National Disability Authority.

Mr. Donal Leahy:

I do not really have a view on the wage subsidy scheme. We have not seen enough about it. The Senator asked me to comment on the pilot programme for 2024. There are a number of things happening, but the one that is most relevant is work we are doing on reasonable accommodation. We are part of a working group, which includes us and other stakeholders across the public service. We are happy that we are complying with the rules with respect to reasonable accommodation. We are not breaking the law, but the idea behind this pilot programme is to go beyond that and take an authentic approach and be a bit more proactive.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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Is that reasonable accommodation pilot scheme for Enterprise Ireland's internal staff?

Mr. Donal Leahy:

It is not really for staff. It is for organisations in the public service. It relates to ensuring our buildings and accommodation are right. Then it will filter through to facilities staff.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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To go on a tangent, as reasonable accommodation was mentioned, if someone comes to HR or a line manager, depending on how the organisation filters it up, looking for reasonable accommodation, whether that is assistive technology or something else, in some public organisations there has been a difficulty because it is part of the budget. Private organisations, as we all know, can apply to the Department of Social Protection and there are fantastic grants available. Thankfully, they are being reviewed at the moment. There are good undervalued grants available for a lot of people. From Enterprise Ireland's point of view, does it come out of the general budget? What is the process?

Mr. Donal Leahy:

There are two answers to that. In general terms there is no problem. Let us put it like that. People just go to the facilities department and there is no distinction as to whether someone needs something because of a disability or because someone needs an additional piece of IT equipment. The facilities department accommodates it quickly and it gets sorted. That is the easy version of the answer.

Being slightly sharper on ourselves, I will say that we are happy that we are compliant with reasonable accommodation requirements, but we do not have a transparent policy which is out there. If anyone questions our policy, we are happy we can defend it, but we are working on having a transparent policy at the moment, so that a policy will be out there in a proactive way in order that people do not necessarily have to ask. They will be able to point to the policy and know what they are entitled to. We are working on that at the moment.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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That reasonable accommodation is a pilot programme, so it is internal.

Mr. Donal Leahy:

No, it is an external piece of work we are doing with outside stakeholders.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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Okay. What is the aim of the pilot programme as regards supporting people with disabilities into employment?

Mr. Donal Leahy:

Its aim is to take a transformative and authentic approach in going beyond the minimum requirements for reasonable accommodation and taking a more transformative approach.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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Is that the only pilot programme that is taking place in 2024? When Mr. Leahy spoke to Deputy Ellis, I wrote down "pilot programme" when it was mentioned. I was not sure what it was. Reasonable accommodation is the only pilot programme.

Mr. Donal Leahy:

It is the only pilot programme-----.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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That is grand.

Mr. Donal Leahy:

-----for reasonable accommodation, but we are also doing other pilot programmes that relate to individuals with disabilities who will work on the Oireachtas work programme.

Ms Anna Shakespeare:

I will try to work through the Senator's questions. We did an equality, diversity and inclusion, EDI, survey last year as an organisation. Similar to Enterprise Ireland, we have between 700 and 800 staff. We had a 74% response rate, which was not bad. Of those who responded, 14% declared they had a disability. On the basis of that, our reasonable accommodations policy was launched and our access officer, who is a member of the HR department, was made known to everyone. People can apply to HR should they require reasonable accommodations that go above and beyond the normal ergonomic assessment we do in the workplace to ensure that workplaces, whether people are working remotely or in any of Pobal's offices, are accessible and safe.

On disability awareness, we have a partnership, like Enterprise Ireland, with the Open Doors Initiative. We have done work with Specialisterne and AsIAm on raising awareness. We also have some in-house experts on Ms Goodman's team. Some of the early years specialists are good at it. We have held a number of town hall meetings with staff. There has been a huge interest in, for example, when a child receives a diagnosis of a disability or a child is autistic, how parents can work with them. We support our staff in working with their children. Have we had a targeted disability awareness programme? No, we have not. It is in our plan as part of our EDI strategy. We would like to think we are alive to disadvantage and social inclusion, but that does not mean there is not room for lots of learning.

On the Senator's question about SICAP and the number of people-----

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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It was a general question. SICAP was mentioned.

Ms Anna Shakespeare:

It was about individuals with disabilities. The information we have on self-employment supports, and it is the most recent information up to 2023, is that 185 men and women availed of self-employment supports before they started up their businesses. That represents approximately 6% of the total number of people with disabilities who engaged with the SICAP. It is quite a low number. An even lower number, 22, required follow-up supports to trade as a company. Of the 185 who availed of supports, 22 continued to trade after they had set up their businesses as self-employed people, which is 1% so it is quite low.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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Out of curiosity, does Pobal have data on whether they went to a local enterprise office, LEO?

Ms Anna Shakespeare:

I do not know. That is the honest answer, but we can certainly check that.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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I am very curious. It would be great to know.

Ms Anna Shakespeare:

Maybe my colleagues would be more aware of the answer. I am certainly not.

On the Senator's questions about the wage subsidy scheme-----

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, in general.

Ms Anna Shakespeare:

Anything that acts as an incentive - this is an opinion - to enable, incentivise and support people with disabilities to remain engaged in the workforce and not find themselves at a further economic disadvantage, in the notorious welfare trap as it is called, is good. I am not aware of any state in Europe that has cracked this nut. It is about how to get the balance right to support people into real, inclusive employment where they have meaning and add value and it is certainly a challenge. We agree with it in principle but as our colleague, Mr. Leahy, said, it is very early to speak about uptake rates.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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I will go back to the LEO. Mr. Swift mentioned the special requirements, that people with disabilities come to the Enterprise Ireland offices and say they need additional help because of having a disability. What has been on offer as a special requirement for someone with a disability?

Mr. Greg Swift:

If someone comes to the office, the first thing regarding tailored initiatives is that we have that mentor panel in place.

This is where we activate most of the supports for someone with a disability. In terms of how we react to it, people self-declare if they have a disability. They then declare what that disability is. Sometimes we do not know how to react to a particular disability so we have to get advice on what we require. We contact an agency. The staff of the LEOs are from the local authority. They are local authority employees. We do have access to finding out about the needs through in-house mechanisms.

If a carer is involved, we make arrangements in order that the carer can come in. We check the timing of the visit if it is to the office. We also facilitate online meetings. If they can come into the office to a meeting room in-house another issue is what supports are needed. If someone is deaf, we arrange signing. We do this type of thing. If there are requirements, we pick them up. We depend on the applicants telling us what their needs are.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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Does Enterprise Ireland have a budget for these special requirements?

Mr. Greg Swift:

We do not have a budget for them. We tend to operate out of the general budget. We have a chance to request additional funds at certain times of the year. Senator McGreehan mentioned initiatives. For local enterprise week this year the Lord Mayor of Dublin introduced a campaign for Dublin to be a city of kindness. The Lord Mayor also ran the Empowering our Future event, in which we were involved. This covered self-employment and employment and a report is almost ready. It was in partnership with TU Dublin, the Office of the Lord Mayor and Dublin City Council. There are many recommendations in it. The report contains 27 actions and many of them are getting picked up in terms of training.

I will come back to the question asked by Deputy Ellis on awareness. There is no particular training for staff per se but because we are in local authorities we get a certain amount of training. Several years ago through Dublin City Council we were on a European programme on self-employment for people with disabilities. It was an international programme and we learned a lot through it. Individual LEOs interact with their local authorities in this regard. Open Doors training is available. It has started to happen. It is a good thing and it will help the staff in the LEOs to become much more appropriately aware of how to deal with certain situations.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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Was the number of people with disabilities who came through the LEOs over the past 12 months recorded? If we do not count them, they do not count and we cannot improve. Are these numbers available? Markers and data are very important. Mr. Leahy said Enterprise Ireland is beginning to create these markers and have a baseline.

Mr. Greg Swift:

It is self-declaration so we depend on applicants to declare. Many of them do not declare. One in five individuals have a disability and they may not declare it. We are dealing with them but we are not counting them.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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Is the number of people who self-declare counted?

Mr. Greg Swift:

To give an example, last year we assisted an individual who declared dyslexia with an application. Subsequently that person got a grant. This is an example of how it may be self-declared. The person told us they had a problem and we then went about assisting them to complete the form and go through the process of applying for the grant.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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I am very interested in this matter . It is extremely important. When will people with disabilities be represented in Enterprise Ireland promotional material and positive advertising of its services, so that people will feel a bit safer in self-identifying or more confident in identifying as having a disability when they go into LEOs to get the help Enterprise Ireland is willing to offer?

Mr. Greg Swift:

We have committed to this. It will happen but it will take a little time. We will do case studies and videos as we would with other entrepreneurs. It will be done at national level. This is happening.

Mr. Paul Skinnader:

I would like to answer another question that was asked. It comes back to the WorkAbility programme. It is only for people with disabilities. It is not a wider programme in which they are a percentage. It is solely for people with disabilities. There is a target of 13,000. I did say there was more than €30 million. The figure is actually €45 million. It is a large initiative. As was said earlier, it is a follow-on from a previous ability programme.

Deputy Ellis mentioned the Dormant Account Fund. It also takes into account some of the lessons from this programme. There is a five-year stretch in terms of looking at the implementation. It is specifically only for people with disabilities.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Does Pobal give funding to social farming?

Ms Anna Shakespeare:

We do not give the funding; it is the Department of Rural and Community Development.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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That Department gives the money but other moneys are given through the Department of agriculture. It is not administered through Pobal but through the Department of agriculture.

Ms Anna Shakespeare:

We do not administer any SICAP funding. Our role is technical in terms of identifying the lots and using the deprivation index to calculate who gets what on the basis of the disadvantage. We also collect the very important data and statistics and manage the IRIS database. We do evaluation reports on what is working and what is not and what the information tells us. This is very much our role. It is more a technical role for the Department. We do not have an administration role in the funding for the Department of agriculture or the Department of Rural and Community Development.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank all of the witnesses for their evidence. The committee has had a long week and the members have put in an awful lot of work, for which I am deeply grateful. I am honoured to chair the group because it is very dedicated. The State ratified the UNCRPD six years ago in 2018. Not all units of the State have grasped what this means and this is clearly evident. It is evident again today. We ratified the convention and we speak about ratifying the optional protocol. The State and State funding and institutions have a long way to go. If we are going to be fully inclusive, each arm of the State must be involved.

Enterprise Ireland is very successful in terms of how it promotes work. We need to be able to ensure there is a cohort of people that can get employment through its funding. It needs to be extremely well thought out as to how we will travel this road to make sure funding goes through. Some of our members constantly speak about joined-up thinking and it is not there. Earlier in the meeting we identified how successful AIM is.

Parents or people have also appeared here to tell us how difficult it is at primary and post-primary level so we should look at what is successful and roll that out.

Is it possible for our guests to share the data on how successful AIM has been with the Department of Education and show that there is a template?

Enterprise Ireland has worked with the Oireachtas work learn, OWL, programme. Enterprise Ireland does not work with any of the section 39 organisations. Can Enterprise Ireland provide funding for employment opportunities or provide extra employment to people with a disability who can work?

Those are my two questions but I could keep the witnesses here for an hour discussing a myriad of issues that I have written on a note. We would love to see the success of the AIM programme being shared with other Departments to ensure that model is carried on. Members of the committee attended the graduation ceremony for the OWL programme last year. Has anything been done to ensure opportunities for people with disabilities are funded within sections 38 and 39 organisations that are service providers?

Ms Delia Goodman:

On the AIM programme and the sharing of data, the evaluation is public for years 1 and 3. It is also a cross-government programme. Representatives of the Department of Education are members of groups and been involved in the delivery of the AIM programme. The data exists and is very much public. It is for the Department of children to share the data with the Department of Education. We present a lot on the programme and we present with our colleagues in the Department. The programme is available.

In terms of promoting the positive aspects of the model, it is such a positive model that produces positive outcomes in respect of the inclusion of children. I wish to also highlight the nursing support element of the programme. Some children have been able to access mainstream preschool through nursing support and a pilot programme is taking place. It is positive that children can attend with medical support and the support of an additional educator within the room.

Mr. Donal Leahy:

I thank the Chair for his comments. His suggestion that Enterprise Ireland needs to give some thought to delivering the programme. I will make sure that the entire senior leadership team within Enterprise Ireland takes his comments on board.

In respect of section 38 organisations, there are two routes that are best for moving the initiative forward. The senior leadership team will communicate that to them so they know. On top of that, we are approaching the end of our strategy period so colleagues are looking at the strategy from 2025 on and I will encourage them to make that. Diversity and equality are part of our existing strategy but we must make sure that, in addition to having those aspirations in the new strategy, it has some specific deliverables.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Can Mr. Leahy ensure that happens?

Mr. Donal Leahy:

If I could I would but I will do my best.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank everyone for their co-operation. We really appreciate it. I thank members for their dedication to the job and I thank the team here who keeps us all going.