Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I remind members who are participating remotely that they need to do so from within the Leinster House complex only. Apologies have been received from Senator Paul Gavan and Deputy Louise O'Reilly.

Today we will look at the challenges facing businesses in relation to sustainability and corporate social responsibility. Corporate social responsibility is where companies integrate social and environmental concerns into their business operations and their interactions with their stakeholders. Key corporate social responsibility issues companies face include: environmental management, eco-efficiency, responsible sourcing, stakeholder engagement, labour standards and working conditions, employee and community relations, social equity, gender balance and human rights, good governance and anti-corruption measures.

I am pleased we have the opportunity to consider these matters further with the following representatives: from the Business in the Community Ireland, Ms June Tinsley, head of communications, and Ms Bernadette Phelan, head of advisory services; from Social Entrepreneurs Ireland, Mr. Tim Griffiths, chief executive officer, and Mr. Darren McMahon, partnership and grants managers; and from the Open Doors Initiative, Ms Jeanne McDonagh, chief executive office, and Ms Claire Hayes, head of research, policy and governance.

Before we begin, as I always do, I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practices of the Houses as regards references that may be made to another person in evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by me to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

The opening statements have been circulated to members. To commence our consideration of this matter, I invite Ms Tinsley to make her opening remarks on behalf of Business in the Community Ireland.

Ms June Tinsley:

I thank the Cathaoirleach for the opportunity to present to the committee today. We represent Business in the Community Ireland. Our purpose is to inspire and enable businesses to bring about a sustainable, low-carbon economy and an inclusive society where everyone thrives. Our team of expert advisers partner with our 120 member companies to design and deliver across the economic, environment, social and governance, EESG, dimensions of sustainability. We advise and support companies and engage in collective action to drive change.

Sustainability is now firmly at the top of the business agenda. There is far greater awareness of the role business has to play in tackling the climate and nature crisis and eliminating social inequality. Many stakeholders, public and private, acknowledge that embracing sustainability practices will support long-term economic competitiveness and social stability.

However, action is still slow. Within our network, there are still some common challenges facing businesses. These include: the nature and climate twin crises. The Irish Wildlife Trust stated that "the link between biodiversity loss and climate change is such they can be seen as one issue: one driving the other, both rooted in our patterns of consumption. But each supporting the other in recovery".

As our low-carbon pledge signatories, which is about 70 companies, can attest, businesses are aware of the need to decarbonise their operations with some making significant strides in this area, setting science-based targets, reassessing their supply chain, etc. This pledge is also referenced in the Government’s Climate Action Plan but less focus has been on the impact of business on nature.

The recently published national biodiversity action plan is welcomed but greater awareness of this plan is required beyond those actively involved in the nature positive space. This will help lead to greater public engagement and the required behaviour change.

The biggest challenge for businesses is to upskill themselves on the impact their own operations have on nature so they can take targeted action to remedy and improve their activities. This also includes having a full understanding of their supply chain and their impact on nature and being able to take decisive action that will not compromise their economic viability.

Our recommendation is for the Government to provide financial support and training resources to ensure businesses, including SMEs, can proactively play a part in achieving a net zero and nature positive economy.

The second challenge is in relation to the social impact. Achieving social inclusion and social cohesion is a core element of sustainability. Against a backdrop of housing shortages, a cost-of-living crisis, anti-immigration sentiment, etc., the expectation of what role businesses should play is advancing. At Business in the Community we consider that employment offers the single biggest opportunity for vulnerable individuals to escape the cycle of poverty and become active participants. Our Elevate Inclusive Workplace Pledge signatories, which is over 65 companies with a collective workforce of over 150,000, are proactively making strides to build more inclusive workforces which boosts productivity, attracts diverse talent and in turn builds strong and resilient communities.

Our successful education and employment programmes are designed to support businesses to be involved in tackling educational disadvantage, improving employment opportunities for vulnerable job seekers and developing stronger links with local communities. Our recommendations in this area is for the Government to provide multi-annual funding to ensure continuity of some of our successful employment programmes, such as Women@Work, the Traveller employment programme and EPIC, which supports refugees and asylum seekers, and to address the barriers to employment by fully implementing all aspects of the comprehensive employment strategy, national action plan against racism and the social inclusion strategy.

We also know issues of human rights and modern slavery across the supply chain are something more businesses are more concerned about now but they need further training on it. We recommend developing a roadmap to reduce and mitigate modern slavery in Ireland.

The last challenge we want to highlight is the area of enhanced regulation and skills gaps. Business is increasingly required by Government, investors, employees and customers to demonstrate transparency. This drives trust within business and supports genuine ambition and tracking of progress.

The impending compliance with the Corporate Sustainability Reporting Directive, CSRD, and other regulatory non-financial reporting structures is posing a real challenge. While not all businesses are in scope for such regulation, the supply chains will be influenced. The regulation drives a need for data on carbon emissions and social metrics related to human rights by all businesses up and down the value chains. This is highly significant for our SMEs if they want to ensure they maintain being suppliers of choice for large in scope businesses.

Through our work we know there is a skills gap within business to address the multiple demands of reporting regulation, addressing social inequality and the increased technical complexities of supply chain issues like scope 3 carbon measurement. We respond through our one-to-one advisory service, peer-to-peer sharing sessions and collective action campaigns to build a business' understanding and internal capacity so that it can take action and demonstrate leadership.

Our Business Working Responsibly Mark is Ireland's EESG standard and already over 40 companies are certified. It builds capacity of companies to address and manage the reporting asks coming down the line and the mark supports companies to put in place robust internal management systems to mature their sustainability activities. Businesses must develop skills in sustainability to manage the risks, realise the opportunities and make informed investment decisions.

In terms of recommendations we ask the Government to raise greater awareness of the CSRD and other regulatory requirements. We suggest greater support for and upskilling of IDA and Enterprise Ireland staff so that they in tun can educate and train their clients and lastly to improve resourcing and budget to the Department's own responsible business forum, so it has the capacity to actively engage with more businesses. My colleague, Ms Phelan, is on that forum. Those are our three challenges and recommendations around them. I am happy to take members' questions.

Mr. Tim Griffiths:

I would like to thank the committee for its invitation to this meeting. I am the chief executive of Social Entrepreneurs Ireland and prior to this role I had 25 years experience in the communications industry, the majority of which in senior leadership positions. I also sit on the board of directors of Social Enterprise Republic of Ireland.

Social Entrepreneurs Ireland is a not-for-profit organisation that is committed to accelerated social change through the power of people. Since our foundation in 2004, Social Entrepreneurs Ireland has identified and supported more than 600 entrepreneurs across the island of Ireland who are championing and driving solutions in areas such as mental health, homelessness, the environment, education and unemployment. Our vision has accelerated social change through the power of people.

What does this mean? Quite simply, it means we deliver this in two ways. We seek out people with unique insight and scalable ideas to social problems and then we offer them a deeper level of support to grow their impact through our vibrant community of change-makers. This support contributes to solving, or alleviating, social problems in Ireland. The support that we offer social entrepreneurs is made up of a balance of direct funding, coaching, expertise and mentorship. Social Entrepreneurs Ireland is funded through a combination of sources from corporations, foundations and individual philanthropy.

The committee seeks views on the challenges which businesses face around sustainability and corporate social responsibility. As part of our work, we provide, in a practical and direct way, a pathway for our innovate social entrepreneurs to achieve social change by connecting with businesses. This in turn provides a conduit for business to make a constructive and impactful response to their CSR obligations and to meet those challenges. Much of the support we give is delivered in conjunction with many of the corporates that support us. We are fortunate to have great corporate supporters, many over a long period of time, which include well-established Irish organisations, such as Keelings and DCC plc, as well as global organisations, like Bank of America.

To illustrate the impact of this support, I propose to outline some examples of some of the social entrepreneurs that we supported over the past 20 years. Mamobo Ogoro is the founder of GORM, which is a social enterprise on a mission to unify across social and cultural differences and advance belonging for marginalised communities. GORM helps bridge connections and conversations across communities through a unique blend of expertise in social psychology and creative media. It focuses on creating innovative digital media, intercultural education and events. GORM has successfully piloted an initial project, This is Them, which highlights the voices of people in different and diverse backgrounds. It has run events on the topic of diversity in the media. GORM piloted its diverse screen programme in late 2021, in which professionals give interactional talks on entering the media industry to new entrants. Mamobo Ogoro is developing a research and feasibility study on cultural diversity in Irish media to inform a media-specific diversity training programme for media professionals. One of its recent programmes, The Wideshot, was launched to support young people from ethnically diverse backgrounds to take the first step in their media careers through a series of workshops, education, training and events on digital storytelling, creative and multimedia. The programme aims to connect young people and recent graduates who are interested in creative media with established film and television practitioners and creative media professionals in Ireland by way of interactive workshops throughout the year.

James Leonard and Timmy Long are the founders and presenters of The Two Norries Podcast, which is a platform dedicated to addressing the issue of addiction through open and honest conversations. It is available to the public on-demand and it provides regular episodes that feature personal stories centered around addition and recovery with the aim of breaking down the stigma and misconceptions surrounding these topics. They also provide educational talks to companies and they have worked with the Irish Prison Service carrying out workshops in prisons. The Two Norries Podcast had a significant impact through media appearances, including the "Tommy Tiernan Show" and "Nationwide" on RTÉ. James Leonard and Timmy Long were nominated for Cork person of the year in 2022. The podcast has been downloaded over 1 million times, with a number of listeners directly seeking support, accessing education or changing their attitudes towards people in addiction and in prison because of the podcast's content.

Catherine Cleary and Ashe Conrad-Jones are the founders of Pocket Forests. Pocket Forests has crafted a transformative model that empowers communities to create and cherish natural spaces in their neighbourhoods, schools, and workplaces. Its approach involves retrofitting urban environments, influencing public discourse, and rekindling community bonds with nature. It achieves this by offering engaging soil health workshops and planting biodiverse, native forests in the heart of neighbourhoods, within schools, and amidst the hustle and bustle of workplaces. It has created 75 tiny forests and planted more than 2,500 trees and shrubs. It established a small tree nursery in the digital hub in Dublin and on the grounds of Shelton Abbey open prison in collaboration with the Irish Prison Service. Pocket Forests received two years of funding from the Department of agriculture's woodland support fund to work with 40 communities around Ireland in schools, GAA grounds, hospices and Tidy Towns' spaces.

I hope these examples provide a tangible illustration of what we do, what motivates us to continue to do this, and the real impact which is being made by so many social entrepreneurs around the country. I wish to stress that we could have a much wider impact, if there was increased Government co-ordination. The recent public consultation document on the national social enterprise policy for Ireland 2024-2027 states that, "Under the new policy, supporting this renewed focus demands greater levels of coordination across Government Departments and agencies". In our submission, as part of the consultation process, we stated that social enterprise plays a greater role in supporting the delivery of Government strategies and objectives. We believe that there should be clearer and more established channels for social enterprise to engage with Government. These channels should factor in cross-government engagement as, in our experience, many social enterprises operate in areas that are under the remit of multiple Government Departments.

For example, a social enterprise may be supporting delivery of a strategy or strategic objectives through the work of the Departments of Education and the Environment, Climate and Communications. We believe that consideration should be given as to how social enterprises access Departments to raise awareness of their work, with key representatives establishing a relationship with Government officials to inform Departments of their work on the ground, as well as learning how best to access support through collaboration with the Government. We also believe there is a need for bespoke legal structure for social enterprises. There are related challenges as to how social enterprises are defined in the national social enterprise policy and the options currently available to social enterprises for legal structures. We believe that Government policy should investigate a new bespoke legal structure for social enterprise that can encompass both for-profit and not-for-profit social enterprises. The current definition as stated in the national social enterprise policy could be perceived as diminishing the importance of profit, which in certain cases is necessary to achieve the maximum potential of the social enterprise and the societal benefit it is aspiring to deliver. We believe the Government should look for international examples beyond looking to include social enterprises within the co-operative legal model, as is suggested in the policy.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Griffiths's time is up; he should conclude briefly.

Mr. Tim Griffiths:

The final area I wish to talk about is measurement. As a country we are very good at measuring financial measurements. Measuring well-being will make us all, across the Government as well as across the corporate sector, take wellness more seriously. As a final point, what we are seeing through the people applying for our programmes is the early warning system for a lot of social problems and people on the ground who are dealing with those issues.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Griffiths and invite Ms McDonagh to comment on behalf of the Open Doors Initiative.

Ms Jeanne McDonagh:

I want to talk about corporate justice. In Ireland, migration, housing, climate change, socioeconomic and political upheaval impact our consumers, employees, friends and family, as well as wider society. Business has a key role to play in how beneficial change comes about and it can improve how we all live now and into the future. Corporate social justice is not just about giving back to society or having a social licence to trade. It is about transforming society because the urgent pursuit of economic and social justice, be it the eradication of income inequality to mass migration issues to LGBTQ+ rights and other areas, is the responsibility of us all. This socially charged world is requiring companies to re-examine their CSR policy. Not only do consumers demand it but employees do too. For example, 74% of customers believe that ethical corporate practices and values are an important reason to choose a brand. Moreover, 65% believe organisations should be responsible for leaving their people net better off through work. It has evolved from corporate social responsibility to corporate social justice, which is a vital reframing which hones in on the lived experience of people who live on its margins. At the heart lies a profound commitment to understanding and responding to the lived experience of marginalised groups. It asks that businesses not only acknowledge their societal impact but actively strive to mitigate harm and promote equity.

By fostering an inclusive workplace culture, supporting marginalised communities and advocating for meaningful change, companies can become a catalyst for social progress. Companies are not islands with a silent existence but by dint of operating in a place, their actions cause ripples throughout their communities. It is not just about painting charities' walls or making donations or winning awards but is about a company-wide, leader-led holistic approach that is committed to positive change in their communities and society in general from the front door to the top floor. It goes beyond charity work and philanthropy to focus on the experience of groups disadvantaged by, or worse, harmed by society. It is a way of working with the goal of explicitly doing good by all.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Apologies for the interruption there.

Ms Jeanne McDonagh:

Not at all.

Conscious capitalism, benefit corporation, B Corp, and the corporate sustainability reporting directive all lead to purpose-led companies. The findings from the 2023 Edelman Trust Barometer Ireland reveal that CEOs are expected to act on major societal challenges, with a significant majority of Irish respondents calling on them to take a stand on climate change, the wealth gap, immigration, discrimination and the treatment of employees. Business has the capacity to drive diversity, equality and integration initiatives where society has lagged. We know that consumers pay close attention to a brand’s social justice efforts before purchasing a product. They want to know what the brands they support are actually doing to address social issues, and this is rising.

It is also beneficial for existing employees who thrive in a diverse work environment. Many people coming into the workplace expect their companies to mirror their values and they will be attracted to those who do this work for societal good. A company’s purpose and work in these areas needs to be measured and goals need to be set to produce clear outcomes that can be built on year on year. It needs to be CEO-led and encompass the whole of the business, not just the areas of diversity, equality and inclusion, DEI, marketing or HR.

What is the ask? We need to look at the legacy companies wish to leave. Employees, consumers, suppliers and the wider community will remember those who walked away from social issues and those who remained true. This requires long-term commitment, not just a trinket for awards to be put back on the shelf or, worse, cut for short-term budget reasons. It is a long-term approach. Companies with authentic values will intensify this work when it is most needed and embed it in their every fibre. It will guide all decision-making. It is about taking a stand on issues and putting everything behind it and being brave in every aspect of one's company, from marketing to recruitment to driving change which everyone will benefit from.

This also means getting informed on issues and understanding the underlying factors that have come forth, such as housing, our own migration history, racism and the rise of the far right. At the Open Doors Initiative, we want corporate social justice to be the benchmark for all companies we work with and their activities. We want political and business leadership in this area, both in Ireland and beyond.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms McDonagh. I invite members to discuss the issues with the representatives that are before the committee. There are members attending this meeting online and they can use the raise hand feature if they wish to speak. It is important that they cancel this feature when they are finished speaking. Deputy Stanton was the first member to indicate.

Ms Jeanne McDonagh:

Absolutely. It is a far more holistic move because it does not involve siloing the work of CSR as a sort of tick-box exercise. It involves encompassing it within the whole of a company and that thought is put into everything it does and every action it takes.

It involves taking a stance on issues that have social impact and putting the work into finding out why these issues exist, what the underlying factors are and what needs to be done to improve them for wider society. That sounds like a grandiose undertaking, but we are of the view that you start small and build with that model in mind and with the mindset that, as a company, it is incumbent upon you to do social good, whatever form that takes.

Pride is a good example. Everyone gets excited about Pride in June but over the rest of the year many issues impact on the LGBTQ community and it is about having an understanding of those issues and of issues relating to the trans community, a put-upon, small community that is not - I use the word "fashionable" lightly - but it is not all the fun of Pride. They need to be looked at and helped during the year to understand from their lived experience what needs to be done and how best to work with them. That applies to all social issues. Immigration is a big issue. There is much reaction to and a lack of knowledge about it, including in the context of our history of emigration. If people talked and knew more about that, it would make them more understanding of those who are coming here looking for help. That is important. I could talk about this until the cows come home but will hand back to the Deputy.

Mr. Tim Griffiths:

There are supports out there for social enterprises of various shapes and sizes, yet sometimes there are barriers for them on the basis of their corporate structures. In order to avail of some of these supports, you have to be, for example, a not-for-profit organisation. Even though somebody is doing a positive thing for our society, they are precluded from availing of these things because of their corporate structure. We believe there should be a specific legal structure for social enterprises that incorporates both not-for-profit and for-profit enterprises. We understand these supports were set up with good intentions but one of the unforeseen implications is there are barriers that were not meant to be there.

There are markets, the UK being one, which have a specific legal entity for social enterprise. This means organisations, whether for profit or not for profit, can avail of certain supports. It works both ways: there are some the for-profits cannot avail of and others that some of the not-for-profits cannot avail of. We engage people from the business community to help and support social entrepreneurs. Many barriers at the early and developing stages are around legal structures. We introduce them to leading legal companies who will support and advise them on that but there are challenges. They have three or four different options, and there is no one size that works for everybody. That is why we believe there is a gap that needs to be addressed.

Mr. Tim Griffiths:

Sure.

Ms June Tinsley:

I will hand over to my colleague, Ms Phelan, in a moment. It is to put on the radar of companies their supply chains and the engagement they have with their workers and the conditions of their workers, whether those workers are based in Ireland or abroad. It is an issue that has cropped up frequently among our membership. Ms Phelan can allude to it a little bit more.

Regarding the B Corp conversation, we can also elaborate on our Business Working Responsibly mark.

Ms Bernadette Phelan:

Regarding modern slavery, human rights and the role of business within human rights is becoming hugely elevated. One can see it within the legislation. In terms of what businesses want to stand for – the consumer piece – they need to know what is happening across their supply chain. Therefore, we have been actively working with our members to understand the complexity of their supply chains to see what is happening in an Irish context as well as globally. We have had webinars where we have had An Garda Síochána talk about what is happening in an Irish context. With some of these issues, it is important to understand that if you say “human rights” and “modern slavery”, people think of it as a global issue and something that is happening “out there”, whereas we know there are infringements happening within an Irish context that are covered in the media. Some sectors are more vulnerable to it than others. For examples, there are instances in the hospitality sector and agrifood. Some of our members are actively engaging in it. We also sit with the Department of Foreign Affairs on its business human rights action plan, which is in its second iteration. It is important that we understand what “good” looks like and that we share practice. Companies want to de-risk as well as do the right thing around engaging with workers.

Building on what was said on how we are working with our members, companies want to be fit for purpose for the future. Therefore, is not shareholder framing rather it is a stakeholder framing, which is about their communities, employees, investors and consumers. All those rights and responsibilities have to be balanced.

Ms Bernadette Phelan:

The Business Working Responsibly mark is modelled on the ISO. It is a "plan, do, check" act. It is a management structure around corporate responsibility. We designed the mark with our members and it is about ten years in operation. It is a robust framework to develop a strategic, holistic view of sustainability.

Not having corporate social responsibility as a stand-alone part of the business means that it can be, dare I say, chopped off in difficult times. It should be integrated into business decision-making. It is a framework we use with our companies to help them understand how decision-making can be influenced by sustainability parameters and really get it into the DNA of companies. A large part of the focus of it is around the governance structure and the responsibility of the board and senior team. It looks at governance, environmental practice and social practice.

Mr. Tim Griffiths:

We would not be as close to it as that. What we are doing is supporting other organisations that are going into the Government Departments. We are hearing that there is a difficulty for organisations getting access and having meaningful conversations within the Government Departments. I am sure there are examples where it is working well but the general sense of what we are getting back is that it is not.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you, Deputy Stanton. We will take note of what you have said.

Róisín Garvey (Green Party)
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I thank the witnesses for coming here today. I apologise for my tardiness. I had other things happening but I am here now. It is great to have the witnesses here today. This is one of the things I am very passionate about. I am the Green Party spokesperson for enterprise, trade and employment and for rural development. I have worked with many small companies and social entrepreneurs over the years. I come from a family of social entrepreneurs and I have lots of friends around me who are doing great things.

I have a couple of questions. I do not know who will answer them but I will throw them out there anyway. Scope 3 has really brought it into light for bigger companies. I am becoming less cynical about many big companies in Ireland. I think they are doing some really good work in leading the way on solutions to reduce their carbon emissions. Smaller businesses struggle to get the information they need under scope 3. I do not believe we are doing enough to support small businesses with this challenge and to be able to supply the larger companies. I see that most of these companies are very busy, so they do not have a lot of time. There is a green for micro scheme through the local enterprise offices but the figures for it are appalling. There is very little uptake or push on it despite lots of good funding to support it, so there is something missing in that.

Many small companies often want to do the right thing but they have to bear all the packaging and other costs because they cannot do bulk buying because of storage issues and so on. I was thinking that it would be great if there was some way where organisations supported them to do a bulk purchase between them so they could get the cost benefits big companies can. This is something that is missing at present.

I would like to know the figures on the B Corp standard. It is the only one I feel is really safe and that I can really trust. I have seen many different standards, labels, awards, green awards and so on. When I looked into B Corp, it was by far the standard that gave me real faith. How is that going? Is it spreading figures-wise? Are we getting there? I do not know if many companies know about it. There are many different labels and awards available these days but we want to bring to the surface the ones that are true green awards and recognise them.

I see a lot of great social entrepreneurs doing lots of good things but also focusing on single issues such as trees, climate or biodiversity. What I see missing is the holistic piece. I attended a tree planting event where some 40 people had driven from all over the country to the event. The lovely, amazing NGO was getting funding from philanthropists and Government. As a social entrepreneur, it was ticking all the boxes. There are lots of clever ways of getting funding from every angle, which is brilliant and a good thing. However, it was doing nothing on transport, for example.

We have to reduce our transport by 50%. It had not even occurred to the organisation to tell those attending about the bus that comes eight times a day to that town, for example. Do we need some kind of toolkit to ensure, if organisations are getting funding for doing something green, they are trying to cover all the different things? It is not big work.

I did a thing with the Burren Ecotourism Network. That is an amazing example of what can be done. There are more than 60 businesses there. I developed the sustainable transport module they signed up for. It is simple things like having the bus timetable on the website, whether there is bike hire or having a car-pooling app so if eight people are coming from Dublin, they come in two cars instead of seven. It is to get people thinking like that again. There are simple things we can do. We cannot all cycle and walk everywhere but we all did car-sharing. We piled into cars and it is a good social connection as well. We are missing a piece by going down a tunnel on one specific thing and being busy on that. Maybe Social Entrepreneurs Ireland could look at something to support businesses and communities better. The Burren Ecotourism Network, again, is a good example. It tries to cover every aspect. Any business that signs up has to come up with how it is dealing with every aspect of being more climate- and biodiversity-aware. That would be a good model to look at because it seems to be working and thriving in Clare. I am completely biased but it is one of the best.

It is interesting to look at how far we have come. Things are vastly improving. There will probably be war over this latte levy when it comes in. I do not think people realise how bad we are in Ireland and the amount of rubbish and waste we produce. People were giving out about the deposit return scheme but three million extra bottles were recycled in the first week. People do not want inconvenience but it could save them money and be good for the planet. Most people know and are concerned about climate but we need to bring home how it affects them locally. Flooding affects us locally, as does the cost of petrol or diesel. How do we bring it back to the local? Nobody cares about the Maldives anymore. They want to know how it affects them. That is a missing piece when we talk about climate and biodiversity. Giving global information is not where most people are at in their daily lives.

Mr. Tim Griffiths:

I will start on the point around collaboration. There are definitely opportunities to do that. We are in existence for 20 years and more than 600 social entrepreneurs have gone through our doors. We run various programmes throughout the course of the year and the people involved work in different areas. We might be supporting in one programme somebody addressing mental health, somebody else doing diversity and inclusion and somebody else doing the environment. We find they have shared challenges, even though they operate in different areas, whether around governance, HR matters, marketing or whatever support it is they need. In the working groups of the programmes and in our broader community, there is a shared mentality. There is a lot that happens there but there is space for a lot more. There is a difference between the strategic things and the micro things that happen day to day.

Róisín Garvey (Green Party)
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The micro things build up, when you think 70% of all the companies in Ireland are SMEs and 2.3 million people are employed in them.

Mr. Tim Griffiths:

I agree. There are something like 4,300 enterprises that identify as social enterprises in Ireland today. It is a huge number.

The Senator made a point on how far we have come. I totally agree. Twenty years ago when Social Entrepreneurs Ireland was founded, I do not think anyone had heard of the expression "social entrepreneur". If they had, they certainly did not know what it meant. We have great examples of people we have worked with over the years, people like FoodCloud, GIY and AsIAm.

Róisín Garvey (Green Party)
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I was a finalist on Social Entrepreneurs Ireland, I just remembered. That was a few years ago.

Mr. Tim Griffiths:

These are people who have made a huge difference at community and national level. There is a danger of pigeonholing these things as community-based projects, but many of these projects present a national opportunity and an opportunity to change things for all of us to live our best lives in many ways.

There has been much progress but, as somebody mentioned, there are a lot of social issues and many of them are new. The war in Ukraine has created, with all the Ukrainians living in Ireland today, a certain set of issues.

There are new solutions we need to come up with. We are working with social entrepreneurs who are working in that space but they need greater support to bring things to the fore.

Ms Bernadette Phelan:

To come back to the Senator's opening comment on scope 3, that has been a major focus of work for us. I share her sentiment that real progress is happening through the low-carbon pledge we referenced. Some 70 companies are trying to understand what is happening. What we are trying to do next, which I see as a very significant evolution that will be announced soon, is to get three of our corporate members to come together to collaborate on how we can engage SMEs and their supply chain. An important framing of what is happening through the responsible business forum is how big business in Ireland can support SMEs. There is a huge willingness to do it.

Róisín Garvey (Green Party)
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I know they want to.

Ms Bernadette Phelan:

It is the ultimate in enlightened self-interest. We want to get this new pilot project, and we will share details with the committee, which is about working with SMEs around carbon literacy. I go back to the Senator's closing point about the progress that is happening. The education and learning curve we have to go through is phenomenal. This is why businesses, be they large or small, need to support each other around what solutions are working and what is effective. The Government should try to amplify those case studies and good messages. We need to counter the story that this cannot be done because no one acts from a fear-based narrative. We need to identify that there are business and social opportunities here and get people in a mindset that this can be done as opposed to it cannot be done. A lot of leadership is coming from business in wanting to support the SME sector, in particular. That is a very important initiative.

The history of B Corp is that it was a US movement. It has global reach and speaks to the global supply chain piece. The SME sector in particular has an important role in that regard. B Corp resonates with a consumer base; it is seen on beauty and food products. Business and the Community is very much focused on ISO management system standards to prevent any of the greenwashing narrative, to make it robust, and to ensure how businesses are acting now and the investment they are making now will serve a purpose in two or three years' time. Businesses need to upskill their staff on these issues. They want something that will stand the test of time because every business and SME in a rural area wants to be around in 20 or 30 years.

On that learning piece and skills gap, a lot of it is we know where we need to get to. We know we want social stability and that we need to get carbon out of the economy. We have a "how" problem. It is about sharing the good examples, the learning, and building up capacity within businesses. That is where we see it at. It is solving the "how".

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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The Senator's time is up. Deputy Bruton has seven minutes.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I thank our guests for the very interesting presentation. I have a few questions. Representatives from every enterprise agency which has appeared before the committee said that sustainability is the key to long-term competitiveness. However, it is simply not scaling. That is the reality. Small businesses are not taking up the offer. Even larger businesses are not taking up the EI and IDA schemes. If our model is not getting the level of engagement, what should we change within it? It seems the Business in the Community pledges get us so far. There are plastic and carbon pledges but they do not transfer to the vast majority of businesses. Maybe I have a bee in my bonnet, but I think sectoral is the way to go. We should take the food and construction sectors and make a concerted effort to establish circular principles in those sectors. That would pull in people, who currently spend a lot of their time bitching about someone else, or regulation or something or other, so they would all at least be sharing the problem to an extent. I am interested to hear the representatives' take on that.

The second issue relates to social enterprise. I am doing a bit of work on positive ageing through the Fine Gael policy lab.

It seems that the 25 years that most people can look forward to after they retire is simply not being tapped as an asset. There is massive wasted value and massive unmet needs, and a huge scope for pairing off some of that spare time, energy, commitment and interest to some of the unmet needs. However, we do not seem to have models to deliver it at scale. It was said we need a new legal framework for social enterprise, which was interesting. I would like to hear what that might be, particularly around the capacity to scale. There are some very good individual initiatives that just do not grow to any scale to match the vast challenge that positive ageing represents.

We have small business saying this reporting requirement is a heap of burden and it is beyond them. I can understand that but, on the other hand, without having some reporting requirement of this sort, how do we drive the purpose on? Do the witnesses have tips they would suggest as to how we might bridge this transition? One group says it is an unsupportable burden and another rightly says these are the purposes we have to square up to. Is it too inflexible? Is the ask from Europe too inflexible at this point or is it a good model? If it is a reasonable model, how do we kick life into it?

Ms Jeanne McDonagh:

On the Deputy’s first point on sectoral, I think that is the way to go. We need ambassadors from business. We need to talk to business directly and see how its needs are best met and the ways in which we can tailor, for example, the burden of reporting. How do we tailor it in the best way for businesses to encourage them to get involved?

There also needs to be shared learning and visibility of any sort of Government mechanism that is meant to help business. The way in which information comes in needs to be looked at. We need to play to businesses’ interests, strengths and collaboration. That is important. The Open Doors Initiative is a collaboration of more than 130 organisations, and it works. It means we are sharing learning, experience and best practice. There is also peer pressure, for want of a better description. When you see your competitor doing well because they got involved with an EI or IDA scheme, a reporting mechanism or whatever it may be, you will want to do that as well. There must be a way of sharing the best practice. That is important and key between companies, and they need to advocate for it internally.

Ms Bernadette Phelan:

On how we get engagement, for sustainability, it is all shoulders to the wheel. A top-down response is needed in terms of political leadership, business leadership and very visible leadership. It is also that grassroots piece. We need all actors on the stage, like any change management process, with a common vision and a common hymn sheet. We have said for many years that it has to be an emergency-type response over the next ten or 15 years because that is the window we have. The leadership piece is important, as well as grassroots and bringing people with us. The consumer has a role, the employee has a role and the SME has a role, so that is important.

Regarding the sectoral approach, absolutely sectors matter. Nine of our members are involved in setting up a sustainable supply chain school for the construction sector. Again, it is that model of the larger construction businesses engaging with their subcontractors essentially to try to upskill them. Important initiatives are happening. It is about looking at whether we can take a model of engagement and collaboration from one sector and apply it to another.

While sectors need to come together, sustainability is a systemic issue and everyone sits in each other's supply chain. To get systemic change, you need to move sectors in unison and they need to talk to each other. That is why, for us in Business in the Community, having that multisectoral view is important. We work with retailers, agriculture and the companies which build the units for the retailers. That cross-sectoral work is important.

Regulation is absolutely a burden. We are dealing with overwhelmed sustainability professionals at the moment. It is a tough lift. Their training needs, upskilling and support are important. The likes of the chartered accountants are doing huge work to upskill their profession. They have a huge role to play. I hope for a longer view gain. We look at where our environmental, health and safety practice was 30 years ago. It is to be hoped we will look back and say it was a tough lift at the time but the benefits have outlived the costs. Much of what we are dealing with is the cost of inaction. In terms of what we lose in our competitive advantage, the cost is too high. There will be a burden over the next three or four years, but if we push through using collaboration and upskilling, it is to be hoped the benefits will outweigh that and we get a fair and just transition.

Mr. Tim Griffiths:

On retired people in our communities, there is huge opportunity and great social entrepreneurs have come up with great ideas. There was a lady - not supported by us but in the same space - called Mary Nally, who had an organisation called Fáilte Isteach. It came about when a retired member of the community was in the local supermarket and saw a woman taking a can of beans off the top shelf and giving it to her child. The mother could not speak English. The child was going to school and was translating what the product was and putting it or not putting it in the basket. Mary's idea was to get the older people in the community with time on their hands to teach English to the non-nationals who had come into the community. It made for a more integrated community.

There are plenty of examples I could give around multiculturalism. The challenge is scalability. I could put three or four strong ideas to the committee but these people are hampered by lack of money in setting these up. Some of that comes back to the legal structure because they are eligible for some grants and not others. There is also co-ordinating and getting people together.

I agree with the Deputy's point on taking a sector-based approach to this. I think one in five of us was not born in Ireland. How do we integrate these people? I could put five or six organisations in front of the committee that are doing great work but it needs a co-ordinated approach and investment.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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Have the witnesses any ideas on scaling up and mainstreaming good ideas like Fáilte Isteach? Presumably there are hundreds of similar communities in which that could have worked, but Mary runs out of road, so to speak, or whatever. Is there any network in any other country that integrates or mainstreams-----

Mr. Tim Griffiths:

There is a very good Irish-founded organisation called ChangeX which has starter packs for social entrepreneurs. You can see how an idea like that is working in another community and then you are given the opportunity to replicate it in your community. It started in Ireland and now has a significant footprint in the United States and the Nordic countries. There are successful examples. That is fine because it provides the tools but sometimes it comes down to putting in money and needing investment to do it.

Mr. Darren McMahon:

The Deputy mentioned the EI and IDA programmes that are currently running. They require the entrepreneur to make a choice on legal structure. Depending on the scale of their growth and the area of development they are in, that might require walking away from an individual donor or corporate partner or making a choice as to what that means for their funding opportunities going forward.

For a founder, that is a very difficult decision to make. There are not many organisations similar to ours and businesses in the community giving advice to entrepreneurs on how to go through that area of development.

Ms June Tinsley:

I wish to pick up on the point on reporting requirements and the burden they pose. It is a matter of shifting the dial to ensure it is not just about a reporting requirement and that it leads to continuous improvement, with this being the benchmark it keeps building upon. That is a core element of our Business Working Responsibly mark. It nearly goes beyond compliance and the CSRD. The feedback we have got from certified companies is that they do not necessarily enjoy all the reporting elements but are heartened by the fact that every time they are recertified, they can build on the progress they have achieved. Therefore, it is not just a continuous tick-box exercise.

Ms Jeanne McDonagh:

I wish to pick up on Ms Tinsley and Mr. Griffiths's point on integration. Much of it is just about lateral thinking. Chambers Ireland produced a document over the weekend on intensive English courses. The English language is the first barrier that people who come here face, and it is one of the hardest for them to overcome. With regard to the national training fund, there is about €1 billion. The payback from investing some of that in intensive English language classes across the country is manifold. From the figures in the document, we can see it pays back so quickly and sees people integrated and working. This takes them off social welfare and has them paying tax. It is a very simple solution to a very complex area. More lateral and creative thinking and ways in which we can develop and work together are so important. It needs to be cohesive because there are too many people in spaces all around who are not working together. They see each other as a challenge or do not see the possibilities of integrating, even within the workspace. I am referring to the various communities, social entrepreneurs and NGOs. Much more collaboration has to take place.

Mr. Tim Griffiths:

There are studies but I do not have them to hand.

Ms Jeanne McDonagh:

I can list them. There is a Deloitte study. An Accenture study, Shaping the Sustainable Organization – How Responsible Leaders Create Lasting Value and Equitable Impact for all Stakeholders, was produced in 2021 in collaboration with the World Economic Forum. The Harvard Business Review has written about the matter. Corporate social justice, as a concept, has come from the United States. It is not fully developed. It is very new here and we started talking about it only this year at our leaders' summit, but there is work on it and there are examples. We will certainly send them on to the committee afterwards.

Ms Bernadette Phelan:

For us, the history and origin story of business in the community is very much around addressing that need. In a very practical way, if a person is running a pharmaceutical site with an employee base of 1,000 people, there are GAA coaches and people involved in their own charity work, so it is a living community. We work with our businesses to profile the interests of their employees as one piece. We look at the needs within the geographic area in which it is based, say, in Little Island in Cork. We go through a process of having structured workshops with the business to look at where meaningful impact can be made on the key needs of employees and the hinterland and how the business can support this. While still very much needed, the traditional model is the financial and fundraising aspect of that. We are seeing a big shift towards creating impacts. Members of companies are volunteering their skills. For example, a marketing professional might work with a small local development agency and give it that skill. They work with the agency to support its longer-term development. Many of the multinationals are from the US but they operate in an Irish culture and context. Being a good and reliable neighbour is in the ethos of many of these businesses.

Ms Jeanne McDonagh:

There is no need to overthink this. I will give two examples - one very old and one very recent. Diageo, formerly Guinness, has been doing this for 250 years. Guinness has built social housing and employee housing. It built civic spaces like St. Stephen's Green, which is just down the road from here. The family has contributed to civic work as lord mayors and as political figures. In recent years, the company has built the Guinness Enterprise Centre, which runs a hospitality training scheme called Learning for Life. This works with all manner of marginalised people to get them into employment. The company is living its values and always has.

A more recent example is Mr. Price, which is one of our members. We are big fans of the company. Its employee resource groups go out to get information about people from different backgrounds with different abilities. The groups work to bring these people into the company. They do so in a way that is knowledge based. They have put structures in place to help them. They do the work in a very open and welcoming way. This is a good example of a company using its workers, abilities and ideas to be a more open workplace.

Ms Bernadette Phelan:

In terms of the next phase of our low-carbon pledge, we want to start talking about transition plans. It is about transition planning in a company context.

I also think that this is where we have to go with the local authorities from a local development perspective because, again, we are unfortunately in a situation where we are going to have to manage risks that cannot now be changed.

There are some good examples out there but we need to build up a lot of expertise. It is back to sectors sharing experiences and learning, even between public and private actors, on what is working and what is not. That is what is needed. We are at the starting slopes of moving to that.

Róisín Garvey (Green Party)
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I wish to raise a couple of points. I spent 12 years working full time on behavioural change in regard to climate and human rights issues in the school and college environment. What I discovered is that it was the lecturers, parents and teachers who needed the education piece far more than the children themselves. In some ways, it might be the same in Ireland when it comes to the IDA, Enterprise Ireland, ISME and the LEOs. B Corps, Open Doors and other such organisations are the ones that should probably be offering the training to people who are good at using the words "sustainable", "climate", "human rights" and all of that. Talk is cheap, but if one does not have a deep understanding of how it affects people or how one can effect change in one's business or daily life then one does not care. Through my work in behavioural change through education I have seen how it completely changes people and their attitude. It empowers them and makes them feel part of the solution instead of pretending they know what they are talking about. They continue to hire people who also pretend they know what they are talking about. There is too much of that going on.

We do not always get it right, even with significant increases in Government funding for initiatives relating to human rights and climate. The money does not always go to the people who deeply understand the issues. I do not know what the witnesses would like to say about that but it is definitely a concern of mine. I do not consider that all the money is going to the right people in the right places. I see people getting jobs who do not have any background in human rights or climate understanding whatsoever but they are in the right place at the right time, they have the right BA or letters after their name, or they know the boss. Something is going wrong there. It is not just a funding issue. That is a hugely important thing.

I would also like to know if the witnesses have any ideas about clear labelling. People are very cynical now and they find it very hard to trust anybody about anything. Branding is a huge thing. I trust B Corp for instance but I would not trust Guaranteed Irish. I do not know if I even trust GIY as I do not think it uses native Irish seeds. There is a lot of cynicism out there, even among people like me who try to do their best to get it right every day. As we also know, it is challenging to be an ethical shopper, an ethical dresser and everything else. We are going to have to simplify systems in some way. I would love to see groups like the ones before us coming together with simple ways of labelling, marketing and advertising the great work they are doing. Open Doors is very impressive. Social Enterprise Ireland is also very good. Business in the Community is brilliant. Most laypeople have no idea. People are too busy. Shopping is complicated and they do not have time. Unless we simplify systems we are just wasting time.

As Deputy Bruton said, we have had loads of different groups and enterprise groups in about climate and sustainability. I would love to see them all in the one room on the same day and to really thrash out the issue. I would also love to see them in the room with the IDA and Enterprise Ireland to see where we are going, because we all seem to be working in silos despite throwing loads of money at it. I would love to have the opinions of the witnesses on that. I will stop now as I have three and a half minutes remaining, which works out at approximately a minute for each group.

Ms Jeanne McDonagh:

We are working with Enterprise Ireland and the IDA for the last year or so.

Róisín Garvey (Green Party)
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Is Open Doors educating the staff?

Ms Jeanne McDonagh:

Yes. That process has started. We do a lot of work and then we do placements with them. We are bringing employees to them from very diverse backgrounds so that is going to change the way thinking happens. That is very important because especially as they progress it will make a real difference to those organisations. To be fair, they are very open to change and to new ideas. That is very important to say. We are going to see a real impact from the work we have started doing with them. They are really good to work with and very open-minded, which is key. They are also very open to collaboration, which is also key. I have great hopes for the future.

Róisín Garvey (Green Party)
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Open Doors is doing great work.

Mr. Tim Griffiths:

I would like to add to what has been said.

I agree with the point that in many cases it is the children who know what is going on. It is the older people who necessarily do not. To effect real change within the corporate environment, you have to attack the CEOs. I apologise, you have to approach the CEOs.

Róisín Garvey (Green Party)
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Remove the title CEO for a start.

Mr. Tim Griffiths:

There is a wonderful organisation led by Caroline Casey called The Valuable 500, which is all about working to get people with disabilities an equal opportunity within the workforce. The 500 stands for her recruiting 500 global CEOs to bring this as a policy within their organisations, and integrate it into the DNA of their organisations. I think that is true of most, if not every social issue. One needs to attack it on that sector level and have it as part of the DNA. From a communication point of view, the Senator is right. I spent most of my career in the corporate sector and I know people did not know what organisations like mine were when I talked to them. The challenge we have is that any funding given to the communication of social enterprises is very much bottom up. You might get what feels like quite a big budget on a macro level. It gets split between a lot of organisations to do small things. Communication requires proper expertise to do it properly, and second, it requires investment to do it properly. I think we have approached it the wrong way as a country by trying to do it bottom up. I would be doing it more top down and showing the benefit of the sector we work in and how we all collaborate together. If we all do that we can get to a better place. It is showing the big benefit from on top rather than the macro thing from down below.

Ms Bernadette Phelan:

I have two comments in terms of Enterprise Ireland the IDA. We are having talks about how we can co-ordinate better. Again, any support around encouraging that would be welcome from our side.

Róisín Garvey (Green Party)
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Do the witnesses work with the LEOs? They are embedded into local authorities.

Ms Jeanne McDonagh:

We have just started.

Ms Bernadette Phelan:

In terms of the Senator's opening point, I think this agenda is personal. It is about the house you live in. It is how you travel. It is the food you eat. How we approach it is very much about hearts and minds. I have had the honour of people seeing senior leaders having their "A-ha" moment, and the realisation that how they have worked to date is not how they want to carry on in the future. We do things like the business working responsibly mark, which is the analytical head part of it. Our education and employment programmes for the past 20 years have been showing those change and impact stories and giving people the stories that show how lives can be changed through working together and different collaborations. Within sustainability I go back to that comment about communications around sustainability. Even the word is complex and we have not done ourselves any favours. That is an open piece. We need to change how we communicate and engage, and recognise that this is a behavioural and personal issue that people need to get involved in.

Róisín Garvey (Green Party)
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What advice would they give Government about getting this right?

Ms Bernadette Phelan:

The demonstration effect is what really matters. If you are talking about public procurement and walking the walk that really matters.

Ms June Tinsley:

I go back to Deputy Stanton's comment about demonstrating positive stories. As we know, time is running out on these issues, but fearmongering is not going to help. Greenwashing is not going to help. However, everybody needs to realise it is doable. We need to work together to do it and share positive stories of how you can affect environmental change, and social inequality is crucial to it.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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That concludes our consideration of this matter. I thank all of the witnesses for assisting the committee in its consideration of this important matter.