Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Apologies have been received from Deputies Brady, for whom Deputy Mairéad Farrell is substituting, and Sherlock. Everybody is welcome to the meeting. The committee will consider the Revised Estimates for Public Services for Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, and Vote 25 - the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, for 2024, as referred by the Dáil. We will consider these Estimates and report back to the Dáil. I remind members that only matters relevant to the Revised Estimates can be discussed.

On behalf of our committee, I welcome the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, and their officials and thank them for the briefing material that was provided. The material was circulated to all members in advance of the meeting. The Minister and the Minister of State are accompanied by the following officials: Mr. Dermot Ryan, assistant secretary, Ms Anne-Marie Brooks, assistant secretary, Mr. Colm Ó Conaill, assistant secretary, and Mr. David Delaney, assistant secretary.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place in which Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, the Leinster House complex, to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Any member who attempts to participate at the meeting from outside the precincts will be refused.

On parliamentary privilege, I remind the Minister and the Minister of State in advance of the delivery of their opening statements of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue the remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

I invite the Minister to deliver his opening statement.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I welcome the opportunity to discuss the Revised Estimates for my Department for 2024, including that of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, IHREC. As members will have seen in the briefing provided for them last week, my Department is projected to spend €7.293 billion in current expenditure and €135 million in capital expenditure during 2024. This represents an increase of €244 million, or 3%, on the Supplementary Estimate for 2023.

The 2024 allocation covers financial provisions for a range of key services in respect of children and young people such as Tusla, early learning and childcare and youth services. The allocation also covers funding for disability services in 2024, the responsibility for this budget area having transferred to my Department from the Department of Health in March 2023. There are also allocations in other key work streams, including the provision of accommodation for international protection seekers and refugee resettlement and services for Ukrainian beneficiaries of temporary protection, BOTPs, and international protection applicants, respectively. Legacy issues in regard to mother and baby institutions are also funded. In addition, there are allocations towards the areas of equality, integration and inclusion. This includes funding towards gender equality, human rights, LGBT+ issues, Traveller and Roma issues, migrant integration and disability policy.

To outline my Department’s Vote in more detail, I have provided the select committee with details of the funding allocations across the various programme areas and a summary by main subhead and programme area, including details of changes over the 2023 figures as allocated following the two Supplementary Estimates that my Department received last year. In the 2024 Vote allocation, more than 96% of the Department’s funding is concentrated in six areas, namely, specialist community-based disability services at 39%, Ukraine-related spending at 20%, early learning and childcare at 15%, the Child and Family Agency at 14%, the international protection accommodation service at 6%, and the response to mother and baby institutions at 3%. Youth affairs is the next largest area, representing just over 1% of the overall allocation, with the administration budget for the Vote also accounting for just under 1%. The balance of 2% is spread across the remaining programmes and subheads of the Vote. I will now briefly address these areas in turn.

I take this opportunity to reiterate how the transfer of disability services to the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth represents a unique opportunity not only for service improvement but also for better financial governance and oversight. I am committed to making the most of these opportunities. This year my Department has secured approximately €2.9 billion for disability services, including one-off funding for measures related to the legacy of the Covid response. This funding will allow us to support service providers to continue their crucial work in what is a challenging economic environment while also providing for service expansion to help support the progressive realisation of the aims of the Action Plan for Disability Services 2024-2026 and the Roadmap for Service Improvement 2023-2026 in children’s services. While there will undoubtedly be challenges in the year ahead, we have set out to be ambitious and make tangible changes for those who use community disability supports and their families. My colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, will speak in more detail about the disability budget and plan for the year ahead.

In early 2022, following the invasion of Ukraine by Russia, my Department was tasked by the Government with providing short-term accommodation and other supports for Ukrainians fleeing the conflict in receipt of temporary protection. An allocation of €1.49 billion, or 20% of the Vote, is being provided in 2024 to meet the costs associated with the provision of accommodation for beneficiaries of temporary protection arriving from Ukraine. The allocation represents a slight reduction of €30 million, or 2%, on the 2023 Supplementary Estimates allocation, with capital spending on the modular housing programme pilot reducing in 2024 as the original planned project is completed and changes to the rules for the newly arriving Ukrainians impacting on the budget in 2024. The largest cost element is accommodation, both through commercial sources and pledged accommodation. Funding has also been provided for the cost of modular housing as well as for expenditure on early learning and childcare, Tusla and youth support services.

At €1.109 billion, the early learning and childcare area accounts for 15% of the Vote’s allocation. This represents an increase of €104 million, or 10%, over the 2023 Supplementary Estimate allocation for subheads B3, B4 and B5. This 2024 allocation provides for the continuation of the ECCE programme, which will benefit more than 103,000 children this year. It provides for the continued delivery of AIM supports so that children with disabilities can access this programme. Crucially, it also provides for an extension of AIM supports beyond time spent in the ECCE programme - in term and out - delivering on one of my stated commitments for this year.

Another 2024 commitment was to reach the affordability target for parents that I set in 2022 to reduce out-of-pocket costs for families by 50%. Since January 2023, with the increase in the minimum NCS subsidy to €1.40 per hour, out-of-pocket costs for families have fallen by 25% on average. From this September, the minimum subsidy will again increase, this time to €2.14 per hour, and the affordability target that I set in 2022 will be met. Approximately 150,000 children are expected to benefit from this NCS measure this year. Among these beneficiaries will be an estimated 2,000 children in childminding settings, with the 2024 allocation providing for the initial cohort of childminders expected to come forward for registration this year. This was another commitment I made going into budget 2024.

In 2024, I will deliver on a number of other key commitments in the area of early years services. Specifically, I will commence the roll-out of the equal participation model, providing services with a proportionate mix of universal and targeted supports for children and families accessing their services who are experiencing disadvantage. I will increase the allocation of core funding in year 3 of the scheme by 15% to €331 million to support improved affordability and accessibility for families, improved pay and conditions for the workforce and improved sustainability for providers. I will award funding under the building blocks capacity grant, which will help to address undersupply in areas of proven need. The 2024 allocation under B3, B4 and B5 is a clear demonstration of the value the Government continues to place on early learning and childcare, given the benefits it confers to children, their families, society and the economy.

My Department’s Estimate contains provision of €1.011 billion for Tusla, which is broadly in line with the 2023 Supplementary allocation, which was significantly increased during 2023. This funding will allow Tusla to improve support for foster carers through an increase in the weekly foster care allowance rate for the first time since 2009. This year, the rate for under-12s will increase by €75 per week and the rate for over-12s will increase by €73 per week. These increases will be achieved over two phases. A €25 increase was implemented on 1 January and the remainder will be implemented on 1 November. These increases mean that foster carers will receive more than €1,700 in additional funding per child over the course of 2024 and, in 2025, each foster family will receive an additional €3,900 over the course of the year. I am dedicated to achieving the best outcomes for children in care, and the Department and I see foster care as the central plank of our response to children at risk.

The funding provided to Tusla will allow it to provide existing levels of care and support to children and families referred to it for help. At the same time, the funding will allow Tusla to begin addressing some of the increasing demand in areas of residential care through investing and increasing capacity in both State residential care provision in line with its residential care strategy and in Tusla’s residential care provided by private and NGO organisations. It will allow Tusla to support unaccompanied children arriving in Ireland who require care, housing and international protection. Additional funding for this is separately contained in subhead E4.

The allocation for costs associated with the provision of accommodation for international protection seekers is €409 million in 2024, representing a decrease over the 2023 Supplementary Estimate allocation. The allocation also includes funding directed towards the implementation of the recommendations of the White Paper on Ending Direct Provision and establishing a new international protection support service. International protection seekers’ accommodation is a demand-led service, with requirements for accommodation and services increasing as numbers of new international protection applicants increase. In recent times, there have been record increases in the number of new arrivals seeking international protection accommodation, with total numbers accommodated increasing from 7,244 in December 2021 to 18,534 in December 2022 and reaching 26,000 by the end of December 2023. The issue of immigration policy touches on more than my Department, with the allocation recognising the need for a whole-of-government approach to application processing, housing of international protection seekers while their applications are being progressed, and supporting those with status to move on from IPAS accommodation. This is important in the context of a potential further additional 12,000 to 15,000 individuals seeking international protection in 2024. A shared approach between the relevant Departments is required, as the Departments of Justice and Housing, Local Government and Heritage may be required to help address certain costs while maintaining the State’s legal obligations to IP applicants. However, if supply constraints within the residential property market hamper movement out of IP accommodation and if processing times and volumes in respect of finalisation of cases for international protection applicants do not keep pace with application numbers, the expenditure in 2024 could be significantly higher than allocated. I am continuing to progress the implementation of the White Paper through supporting the implementation of measures to address poverty among under-18s in international protection, continuing the roll-out of local authority integration teams across the country, rolling out the international protection integration fund for 2024, providing increased supports for NGOs focusing on supports for IP applicants, and providing accommodation for particularly vulnerable applicants.

In responding to the final report of the mother and baby homes commission of investigation, the Government has approved a suite of 22 specific measures. Action 20, the mother and baby institutions payment scheme, is a key element of the Government’s response to the findings of the commission. This is a demand-led statutory scheme that is anticipated to provide a financial payment to 34,000 survivors and former residents, of whom approximately 19,000 will also receive an enhanced medical card. Of the €800 million allocation agreed by the Government for the scheme, €225 million is being made available in 2024, representing an increase of €215 million on the original allocation provided in 2023.

This allocation has been provided to meet the initial costs of opening the scheme and commencement of financial payments under the scheme, along with providing medical cards for survivors and former residents during 2024.

As regards the rest of the Vote, there are, of course, other policy areas that will be progressed in 2024. The 2024 Estimate will allow me to continue to provide funding in the important areas of equality, disability, inclusion and integration. These are significant and challenging areas, and the Vote contains funding streams for areas such as the National Disability Authority, refugee and migrant integration, gender equality, LGBTI+, and Traveller and Roma initiatives. This funding will allow for a range of equality initiatives, including the finalisation of new strategies as regards Travellers and Roma, women and girls and LGBTI+ people. As I mentioned earlier, these areas are in receipt of additional funding in 2024 compared with the final 2023 allocation following the Supplementary Estimate.

The 2024 Estimate has seen an increase of €5 million on current expenditure for youth services to just under €78 million. This level of funding will support the delivery by the voluntary youth work sector of a range of youth work programmes and services for all young people, including those from disadvantaged communities. Of that funding, €1 million is allocated to the mainstreaming of the targeted youth employability scheme, which provides intensive supports to young people who are not in education, work or training to help them get into employment or education. In addition to this €78 million, a further €2 million is being allocated to youth services to support the integration of young Ukrainians in our local communities. Youth services are essential to the well-being of young people, providing spaces, supports and opportunities for young people of all backgrounds to develop their personal capacity and to connect with and positively shape their communities and wider society.

The significant increase in resources under my Department's Vote for 2024 allows for the continuation of vital services to some of our most disadvantaged communities, while providing for a number of important opportunities for a targeted development and improvement of services. Deputies can rest assured that I will continue to work closely with all sectors and stakeholders as we strive to maximise outcomes from the resources being considered today. I thank Members for their attention and look forward to addressing any questions they have.

Anne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the opportunity to speak to the committee about the budget for disability services in 2024 and the important work it is funding. The Government is committed to providing services and supports for people with disabilities that will allow them to live ordinary lives in ordinary places, in line with commitments under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. The priority for the Government for 2024 will be the enhancement of person-centred supports and services, supporting the progressive roll-out of the action plan for disability services and implementing the roadmap for children's disability services.

In recent years, significant resources have been invested in disability services. This is reflected in the budget for disabilities services, which has increased from €1.7 billion at the close of 2017 to €2.9 billion in 2024. The additional funding allocation of €272 million for 2024 demonstrates the Government's strong commitment to building capacity in this area. The allocation for 2024 includes €74 million for new developments, which will help to provide: 100 extra residential places for children and adults; 125 extra therapy assistant positions for CDNTs; 1,250 to 1,400 further day services places for next year's school leavers; an increase of 80,000 hours in the provision of personal assistance; development of further respite provision; and development of capacity for community neurorehabilitation teams.

Though the extra funding in budget 2024 is welcome, we know there is more to do, which is why we have developed a comprehensive action plan to help improve and expand services out to 2026. I was delighted to launch the plan along with the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, and the CEO of the HSE in December of last year. The action plan contains a range of actions designed to increase both service capacity and our forward-planning capability, but it will take time for the plan to come to fruition and give us comprehensive coverage in terms of meeting extant need. The action plan represents the first phase of work required in order to begin addressing the capacity deficits in the Disability Capacity Review to 2032. As such, it contains further enabling actions designed to begin the necessary groundwork which will help position us to make further capacity increases in 2025 and 2026, as well as in the successor plan which will follow in 2027.

Working in tandem with the action plan is a roadmap for service improvement in children's services. The roadmap contains a set of actions that, collectively, will enhance children's disability services in Ireland. They include significant measures to integrate and improve access to services, expand the workforce and advance better communication and engagement with families. This is a crucial area that will receive close attention this year and, as I have already mentioned, will be supported by extra funding to hire 125 extra therapy assistants in 2024.

As the committee will be aware, a number of budgetary pressures arose in this area in 2023 and they were addressed through a Supplementary Estimate. In response to this, a significant existing level of service, ELS, provision of €198 million was made in the disability budget for 2024. I am conscious, however, that some pressures will persist this year. In that context, part of our programme of improvement post transfer involves implementing better controls and oversight of spending to ensure we are providing the vital community services for people with disabilities while responsibly and effectively managing public moneys. This will be an important objective for me and the Department's officials for the year ahead.

This is a period of transition and transformation for community disability services, following the transfer of functions last March. I committed to seizing this opportunity in order that it makes a real, tangible difference in the lives of people with disabilities.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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I welcome the Minister and the Minister of State. I will pick up on a few things.

I appreciate that the issue of immigration is very difficult. It is also not entirely within the control of the Department. While I welcome the positive changes the Minister and the Minister of State talk about, it is important to highlight that a lot of issues in other Departments need to be addressed if we are to effectively support people coming here fleeing persecution and seeking safety, as is absolutely their right.

Given that I am supposed to stick to the Estimates, I will move on to talk about Tusla. The Minister mentioned the challenges around placements. Are there any cost controls in Tusla as regards private placements? The marginal cost of private placements, particularly, for example, private foster placements, is higher. There is often a greater impact on, say, the time social workers spend because they are often further away. While the Minister talks about increased State provision, which is welcome, I would differentiate between private and voluntary agencies because they are very different and provide very different services. We have to remember that the key priority of private services is their own profits. Private services cost more and are more focused on their own profits. Tusla has a problem trying to get placements, but there is also a problem with the acceleration of the use of private placements to fill that gap. It is costing money and leaving a situation where Tusla is less able to provide its own placements because of that.

Another thing I will ask about is youth affairs, youth work and the funding in that regard. This committee did an excellent report on that whole issue. I think anyone who is involved in that area would quickly speak about the need for increased funding. One of the challenges coming up, however, is that there will be demands for pay increases, particularly as the public sector pay agreement comes to fruition. When that happens, there will be more demands. In the past, many of these youth work organisations had to address pay restoration without necessarily their overall operating budget increasing to make up that extra pay-related cost. If we are seeing a public service pay deal coming down the line, will they be supported in those regards?

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Minister, do you want to start and then pass over to the Minister of State?

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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Thank you. As regards the use of private providers by Tusla, this happens in the context of foster care, residential care and special emergency arrangements.

The question was posed in terms of cost controls in the private sector. Our objective is to support the public element of provision, whether that is directly through Tusla's social workers, Tusla residential placements or the residential payments placements - those residential spaces run by voluntary organisations. Just before Christmas I met a representative group of about five of the voluntary organisations that provide residential care and we had a useful discussion. We generally say that foster care is best, and I think it is best, but they were articulating the argument that for some children, especially those who are aged 17 or 18, a residential placement can be as strong for them in terms of where they are in their lives and that this aspect is important. While we wish to strengthen the foster side of things, then, it is also important that we have a core of residential beds, be that under the auspices of Tusla or the voluntary sector. This is where our core needs to be. I think that was a very useful discussion.

We have been clear in this regard, certainly, in respect of having allocated a significant increase in investment into Tusla this year compared with 2023. We have also been very clear that looking at its residential capacity is an important part of this endeavour. As the committee will be aware, Tusla has a strategy for residential care. It is part of the three strategies in its alternative care approach. One of the things we have said to the organisation is that we recognise, when it comes to residential care, that a one-size-fits-all approach is not really working because there may be children and young people with significant needs who require additional support. We are very happy for Tusla to make calls if it needs to provide a greater level of support in some of its residential care placements.

Similarly with foster care, we will significantly increase the foster care allowance over the course of this year. As I said, it will grow by €75 and €73 per week for under-12s and over-12s, respectively, by the end of this year. This will make a meaningful difference in terms of supporting all foster carers, especially those who are directly fostering through Tusla. This change comes on top of other more practical supports we are looking at, particularly in terms of the provision of regional therapy groups that can be availed of by children in foster care. This will provide an additional tangible support to parents so that they are not automatically leaning on community disability network teams or primary healthcare teams.

We secured another significant increase of €5 million in the budget for youth services this year. Of the four budgets I have now overseen, this is the third one where we were able to get a €5 million increase. We are putting this into several areas. This year, we are focusing on universal services. In previous years, it has mainly been on the UBU aspect. We are also bringing in the new targeted youth employability scheme, which I think is very good. We know from pilots that this approach has worked well, so this is something we are moving from a pilot to a mainstream provision. This is important because we all recognise that too often we do a pilot and it is evaluated as having done fantastic work but is then never heard of again. We are, though, taking this initiative forward. I was talking to representatives of one of the organisations that had a pilot, which I think was in Cherry Orchard and might have been in the equine centre there, and they were telling me how important it was and how disappointed they were when the money ran out after the pilot programme. It is this sort of scheme we would hope to be able to mainstream going forward.

The point made about salaries is one I hear regularly when I am visiting youth services. There is an uplift in terms of the core funding for services provided for in that €5 million. I am told it is not enough and that those providers would like to see more. I absolutely understand that and that there are pressures there. Again, this sector, like some others, is not directly covered within the public sector pay agreement, unfortunately, but this is the nature of it. Obviously, as we know, as a Government we have been able to do certain bespoke things for groups like community workers and now, more recently, for workers in section 39 and section 56 organisations. This is welcome. I will certainly look to focus in this year and in coming years in terms of how we can raise the core investment in youth services as well, recognising that to do the extra work, we need to keep the fantastic staff we have in youth services.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Deputy Costello. I also have a few questions for the Minister, mainly to do with the early years sector. It is fine if the Minister wishes to provide the answers to some of these questions in writing afterwards. Briefly, before I get into those questions, is there any expected date for the redress scheme for survivors of mother and baby homes?

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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Yes. We expect it to be up and running by the end of quarter 1 of this year. I do not have a specific date but that gives us a clear idea. We have done a significant amount of work to put in place the major IT system that will be needed to deal with a scheme to which 34,000 people will apply. We have put in place staff to oversee it. We have also put in place the training, and we spoke previously about trauma-informed training and the like that will be necessary for running this scheme. We are working on the communications aspect too. There will be an online application process, but we will also create a fully paper-based application process. A major public information campaign will be run in Ireland and internationally too. We continue, therefore, to be on track for launching this before the end of quarter 1 of this year.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister. It was very interesting what the Minister mentioned about childminders. It is great to see 2,000 of them coming into the system. I assume they are all registered. Some work must have been ongoing to register that number of childminders.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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There will be 2,000 children who will use childminders, so there will be a smaller number of childminders.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I am sorry. It was the number of children. How did we got to that figure, from two to 2,000?

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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It will be a smaller proportion, but we will still be looking at a couple of hundred childminders. As the Cathaoirleach knows, we have the childminding action plan we have been working on. It has been published and we have been implementing it in recent years. A key element to getting these childminders registered is the element in the child care (amendment) Bill, on which the committee did pre-legislative scrutiny several months ago. We are working feverishly now to get drafting completed and get it into the Oireachtas rapidly. This is important in terms of setting up the regulatory framework for childminders. We need the legislative base in place. Just to let the Cathaoirleach know in advance, we will be launching the public consultation on the new childminding regulations on 8 February. These are the regulations that any childminder wishing to avail of the national childcare scheme, NCS, will have to sign up to. A great deal of work has been done on these regulations because we wish to make them distinct from those regulations that apply to centre-based childcare.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, because they are different.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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They are very different circumstances. There will, therefore, be a public consultation on these regulations. Those will be written in regulation-speak, but there will be a plain English version as well. We will be seeking submissions on the draft of the regulations. This is a consultation and we will listen. I imagine changes will take place as a result of that consultation, because I know there are childminders who are quite nervous about these changes. We are very clear that this is a consultation and this is not the final draft of the regulations. We do, though, have to put a draft out there to get engagement on. That launch will happen on 8 February. The work on the child care amendment Bill will provide the legal basis for that process. Assuming we get the regulations agreed and finalised and get the legislation passed, the registration process will begin over the summer for that first batch of childminders. The parents who use their services will be able to draw down from the NCS from September of this year.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I have a few other questions on the early years sector. Do we have any figures for the number of services that have closed? I refer to official figures. I know sometimes we hear various reports in this regard, but what are the official figures? I would also like to know how many services opened in 2023. How many such services closed and how many opened in 2023? It is fine, as I said, for the Minister to submit the answer to these questions in writing afterwards. I would not expect him to have the information here. I am asking these questions just to try to get some factual information on this sector.

The Crowe report undertaken in 2019 estimated that about 40% of income in the sector was coming from fees paid by parents. Is this still the case? What has been the impact of the 25% reduction? If people are going to see a 50% reduction, is there any more information or data we can get in this regard?

Is the number of services that have not signed up to core funding 238? Does the Minister have any further information about this aspect? I ask because what I stated might not be the correct information.

It is good to get actual and factual information. As I said, written format is perfect.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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In terms of closures, there were 115 early learning and childcare, ELC, closures in 2023 and then 52 stand-alone school-age childcare facilities in 2015. Therefore, the total number closures in 2023 was 167. That was the lowest number of closures in the previous five years. Importantly, however, between early learning and childcare and stand-alone school-age childcare, 296 services opened in that period, so there was a very significant net increase in the number of services in 2023. Looking back, it is one of the lowest numbers of closures per year and one of the highest number of new services per year in 2023.

On the point about Crowe report, I remember that was one of the first things I did when I was elected to the Oireachtas. When I started, that report was the big thing. We talked a lot about the financial returns, there was criticism of the level of detail required and we made significant changes. However, the core reason we are looking at those is to get better information about the degree to which services' income comes from parental fees versus the national childcare scheme, NCS, and the other funding streams. That is the best way because the Crowe report was, at the end of the day, an analysis of a sample - a large sample but, nevertheless, an analysis of a sample - whereas the returns are that literally everyone who uses core funding is telling us what proportion of their overall income is coming from parental fees. That is going to be hugely important when we get that information. That is why we are looking for that information. It is so that we can get a very detailed understanding of how different services get their income and how it is going to be different across an 11-child early childhood care and education, ECCE, service versus maybe a 50-child full day childcare service. That will allow us to target our core funding and extra investment in core funding in the years going forward.

We have 94% uptake on core funding at the moment. I think the Chair said it was around 265 services.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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The number I have is 238, but I accept that might not be correct.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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What we have is 265, so it is very similar. That is the 6%. A figure of 97% of all community services and 93% of private services have taken up core funding. In certain areas, we have 100% take-up. In County Kilkenny, for example, we have 100% take-up in core funding and we are at 98% in County Carlow. A number of other counties have very high take-up rates as well. The lowest we have is 88% take-up.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister very much. With regard to the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte's sector, I am sure she probably gets this more than any of us but some of the issues still seem to be the lack of staffing or trying to recruit and retain staff in the disability sector. Does the Minister of State want to talk about that? I know there have been increases and they are welcome, but how much is that impacting on the sector? Are there any new initiatives in that area?

Anne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chair for the opportunity. It is a very welcome time to bring her up to date on this issue. If I work backward, even from the Christmas period, the HSE ran a very active campaign, and when I say active, I mean that from the end of December to the middle of January it ran a very open campaign that was all about recruitment for disability services. A total of 425 open applications were made to it, 255 of which were completely outside of any section 38 or 39 organisations or the HSE and 146 of which were new people who were not from anything within health at this time. At the moment, the HSE is going through that and interviews will have started by the beginning of March. That is really welcome.

Working back again, while the embargo hit one side of the HSE, it did not hit our side. It was very much welcomed by the CEO of the HSE, Mr. Bernard Gloster, and that was working in consultation with the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, and Department officials to ensure disability could continue to recruit and that we could meet our base levels of proper clinical governance and cover. To be fair to the CEO and the board of the HSE, they have worked with us on that. Sometimes there is a bit of confusion on that and it is important to stay at it. It is all to do about primary number notifications. Back in 2016, when a reconfiguration was taking place, some of the staff might not have had a primary number and they are working through that. To be fair to Mr Bernard O'Regan, seemingly, he signed off on 130 of last Thursday's primary numbers so that they can continue to recruit. That is the only piece on it.

There is much work going on as well at a local level with bespoke arrangements in the likes of County Donegal. They ran another Home for Christmas campaign, but they are also running bursaries and they are working with Coventry University. We are also working on recruitment from abroad. There is, therefore, a lot going on within disability services to bring up the base level. Of the 800 posts that would have been funded since 2020, 359 have been filled, and it is hoped, from what has been established with the 425 applications, we will see more coming on board.

The last piece would be where the panel system would have proved problematic in that past. The Chair will have heard, as all of us have, about the panel. For counties Donegal, Galway and Waterford, to all intents and purposes, if a person is on the panel, regardless of whether he or she is No. 1 or 99, that person can apply and will have an opportunity for that interview. We will fill from the panel of anybody who wishes to go to those three locations. Between those two models I talked about, that is, the Home for Christmas campaign and the panel system, we are hoping to have a very big uplift in those three counties. At the same time, however, it is hoped Mr. Gloster, along with the Minister, me and Department officials, will have the staff census. There is an embargo there at the moment on getting data from the administration within the HSE, which is really stifling us getting right down into the nuts and bolts of it. There is a Fórsa work-to-rule action on providing data to the CEO of the HSE. If we had more current data, I could tell the Cathaoirleach the next county on which I need to go to work with the HSE and Minister. Overall, however, there have been positive changes in the past six months on recruitment in disability.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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That is good to hear. Sometimes, the difficulty with panels is that people feel they go on a panel and do not hear anything else. Obviously, there is such competition at the moment with the private sector. It might be able to give people a definite start date and, of course, particularly for younger people, that is what they want to know. People hear they are on a panel and wonder whether it is some sort of consolation plan or whether they will ever get the role. It is good, therefore, to hear that there is movement in that regard.

Unless either the Minister or Minister of State wish to make any concluding remarks, that completes the select committee's consideration of the Revised Estimates for 2024 in respect of Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, and Vote 25 - Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission. A message to this effect will now be sent to the Clerk of the Dáil in accordance with Standing Order 101. Is that agreed?

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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Agreed.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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It is also proposed to publish the opening statements to the Oireachtas website. Is that agreed? Agreed. I thank the Ministers and all the officials.