Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 24 January 2024
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine
Crisis in Ireland's Inshore Fishing Industry: Discussion
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Good afternoon everyone. Please note that Deputy MacLochlainn is substituting for Deputy Kerrane. I remind members, staff and witnesses to turn off their mobile phones.
Before we begin, I draw attention to the fact that witnesses giving evidence within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. This means that they have a full defence in any defamation action in respect of anything they say at the meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed by the Chair to cease giving evidence on certain issues. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard and are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses who give evidence from locations outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts. They may consider it appropriate to take legal advice in this regard. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication by witnesses, outside of the proceedings held by the committee, of any matters arising from the proceedings.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to utterances of members participating online at a committee meeting when that participation is within the parliamentary precincts. Members may not participate online in a public meeting from outside the parliamentary precincts and any attempt to do so will result in said member having his or her online access removed.
The purpose of today's meeting is to examine the deepening crisis in the inshore fishing industry in Ireland. In its first session, the committee will hear from representatives National Inshore Fishermen's Association, NIFA, namely, Mr. Michael Desmond, Mr. John Menarry and Mr. Eamon Dixon, who are all very welcome to the meeting. The opening statement has been circulated to members. I invite the witnesses to make their opening statement now and then we will proceed with a question-and-answer session.
Mr. Michael Desmond:
Ireland's inshore sector accounts for approximately 95% of the Irish fishing fleet. All vessels in the sector are less than 18 m in overall length, with the vast majority of them being less than 12 m. The fishing boats in this sector almost all work within 12 nautical miles of the shore line, with some exceptions due to various factors. The sector currently provides in excess of 50% of employment in Ireland's seafood industry, with each job at sea accounting for seven onshore jobs, including those in processing factories, transportation, ship chandleries, gear manufacturers, marine engineering companies, electronics companies, as well as seafood chefs and waiters in restaurants.
The inshore sector is an integral part of the economy to coastal communities. A combination of unforeseen events within the last four years including the Covid pandemic, Brexit and the war in Ukraine, has brought unprecedented financial hardship to the doors of the families involved in inshore fishing the length and breadth of our coastline. The huge reliance on the shellfish fisheries proved catastrophic when the brown crab and shrimp markets collapsed for a second consecutive year towards the end of 2023. One fishery that could have alleviated some of the pain was the sustainable pollack fishery but to add further misery this became a by-catch-only species after the EU Council meeting in December. The reason for our over-reliance on an income from shellfish stocks is because of previous Government decisions to prevent us from fishing species such as salmon, trout, bass, eel, etc. These fisheries were once the bedrock of rural coastal communities but because of lobbying from angler representative groups and the tourism sector, with no coherent organisation representing inshore fishermen, these vital revenue streams were taken from us, giving us little choice but to rely too heavily on lobster, crabs, shrimp, whelks, etc.
The end of February 2019 brought renewed hope to the inshore fishermen all around Ireland when the then Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Michael Creed, launched the strategy for the Irish inshore fishery sector, which was to run from 2019 to 2023. This strategy set out a vision for the future of the inshore sector to provide a prosperous and sustainable future. It revolved around four main themes: the organisation and profile of the sector; infrastructure and the resources available; the management of inshore resources; and the profitability of the sector. Among the many issues to be addressed through the strategy were the sustainable management of key fish stocks as well as attracting and retaining talent with a view to maximising the potential of the sector to provide support to Ireland's coastal communities. A number of inshore fishermen dedicated a lot of time and effort to this strategy as it was also to include the targeting of financial supports available under the European Maritime and Fisheries Fund to programmes and initiatives where it could be used most effectively.
Bord Iascaigh Mhara, BIM, was tasked by the Department with implementing the inshore strategy, but we have heard nothing since. In last year’s distribution of the Brexit blue economy scheme funds, there was up to €200,000 in individual grant aid from the Brexit blue adjustment reserve fund administered by BIM for camping and glamping and grants for those who wanted to put new engines into a whale watching or eco-tourism boats but not fishing boats. Millions of euro have been spent on various tourism projects in Ireland's coastal communities. While the inshore sector may have benefited to a small extent from the fund, we feel that the sector was left behind to the benefit of other sectors.
Everyone is aware of the unfair and disproportionate division of pelagic fishing quotas at EU level. What is even more difficult to comprehend is the manner in which these quotas are divided amongst the Irish fishing sectors. Mackerel, the most financially lucrative species to the economy, varies in quota allocation between 50,000 and 70,000 tonnes, of which 400 tonnes goes to the entire inshore sector for a hook-and-line fishery, the most sustainable method of fishing on the planet. This equates to less than 1% of the national quota for approximately 95% of the fleet. The herring allocation is not much better resulting in 5% for inshore boats. With the dynamics of the fleet changing, should the quota not also change? The current situation favours a tiny minority, while the majority finds itself continuously discriminated against.
The European coastal states Common Fisheries Policy, CFP, is used as a stick to beat the industry with, yet the one good thing in it for the inshore sector, Article 17, is not implemented by our Government. Article 17 requires member states to allocate fishing opportunities using transparent and objective criteria focusing on social, environmental and economic criteria, including, for example, the use of fishing gear with low environmental impact and reduced energy consumption - in short, the exact opposite to what is currently the case in Ireland. This might have something to do with the fact that NIFA is the only dedicated producer organisation, PO, for the inshore fisheries sector. The Irish Islands Marine Resource Organisation, IIMRO, represents the islands and four separate POs represent the remaining 4% of the fishing industry. Through an inadvertent coalition, a minority of the fleet has become the representative voice of the industry.
When NIFA was formed, nobody could have imagined that a large portion of our time and energy would be spent dealing with the fallout from offshore renewable energy. Our offshore fishing grounds were sacrificed when we joined the EU and our inshore grounds are now being auctioned off to multinational developers. The Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications has stated that Ireland has seven times more sea area then landmass. This must be utilised for the offshore renewable energy industry, yet, so far, the only areas of the sea we have seen designated for wind farms are those closest to the shore that are used by the smallest fishing vessels.
On top of the offshore renewable energy, ORE, fiasco, we are now told that 30% of our sea area is to become marine protected areas, MPAs, with certain marine NGOs calling for a ban on fishing in its entirety within some of these MPAs. Shortly, inshore fishermen will need an MPA of their own within which to work. NIFA fought alongside some environmental NGOs and the majority of the public that partook in the required public consultation necessary for a six-mile limit around these shores a number of years ago. Boats over 18 m in length would work outside of this area and this in turn would lead to increased opportunities for inshore boats. Because of court challenges and legal issues, this has not progressed. It has been almost 12 months since the High Court ruled against it on a technicality and the renewed legislation process on it needs to speed up considerably.
Bluefin tuna are swimming up and down our coast every year with no Irish fisherman able to benefit due to the lack of quota. We urge the Minister to fight for an Irish quota for this species. Because of its high value, it has the potential to alleviate the problems faced by inshore to some extent. Currently, fishing vessels from the far southern hemisphere are travelling to our waters to fish these stocks.
Future threats to our industry include a ludicrous looming bottom trawling ban and the decarbonisation of the fishing fleet. There is an urgent need for financial subsidies to be made available to the inshore sector immediately so that our members among others can play their part, stay afloat and weather the storm. Otherwise hundreds of primary food producers will be unable to continue in this industry. NIFA thanks An Cathaoirleach and committee members for allowing us the opportunity to explain our current dilemma.
Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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This is Mr. Desmond's first time appearing before the committee. He gave a very comprehensive outline of his organisation's issues.
Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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It is great to have representatives of the inshore fishing sector appear before the committee. I welcome Mr. Dixon, Mr. Desmond and Mr. Menarry. It is a rarity. This is a hugely important sector that has put bread and butter on the tables of many people throughout the country, particularly in our coastal communities. The sector has been under pressure. I grew up in west Cork. Many of my friends are inshore fishermen. They tell me about the difficulties they are experiencing. Mr. Desmond might be able to answer a few questions in order we can see if we can help his sector and put our shoulder more strongly to the wheel than we might have done.
Many families across the expansive region of west Cork, for example, in areas like Schull, Union Hall, Glandore, Castletownbere, all the way to Bantry and Glengarriff and down to Kinsale along with other coastal communities rely on inshore fishing as a primary means of income. Could Mr. Desmond provide a comprehensive analysis of the impact of the shrimp crisis on these fishermen and their families over the past two years?
Mr. Michael Desmond:
Yes. As the Deputy is aware, shrimp fishing is vitally important to west Cork, particularly as we probably have the highest number of inshore fishermen along the Irish coastline compared with other coastal counties. However, it is the same all around the coast from Donegal to other areas. West Cork has more shrimp fishermen than any other area. Traditionally, the season has opened on 1 August and closed in the middle of March. Last year and the year before, it opened to the processors in September and closed at the end of November. Some buyers opened again at the beginning of September and closed again at Christmas. Those of us who rely on that source of income do not have an income. Regarding the corporate processors that were open in August, the prices were about one third of what they were in 2021. If you take into consideration the fact that our costs for things like fuel and pots have spiralled out of control - they have doubled - and our income has come down by that much, it leaves the families depending on it in a very vulnerable situation.
Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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The industry has been grappling with the issue of low prices of brown crab. Could Mr. Desmond explain how this has influenced the overall dynamics of the industry? What are the financial implications for fishermen and how has this trickled down to affect families?
Mr. Michael Desmond:
In west Cork, many processors have continued to buy it but the price has been reduced four times from May to November. Traditionally, the price of brown crab and shrimp should reach its height at Christmas. This year, however, they were not buying them at all at Christmas, so when we would expect to get the highest price at Christmas, we were unable to sell them. Mr. Menarry is a brown crab fisherman. He might have something to add in respect of the situation relating to fishing brown crab.
Mr. John Menarry:
To add to what Mr. Desmond said, the processors I supply usually open in early May. They did not open until July last year. That meant we lost the first two months of our season. They were no longer open. We got the call to say they had closed at the start of November. As Mr. Desmond said, the most lucrative and best time for crab is in the lead-up to Christmas. That is when we expect to make the bulk of our money to tide us over for the winter. Suddenly, processors closed with very little warning and we were left with nothing else to fish because of the lack of other opportunities in the inshore sector.
Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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The industry has been witnessing spiralling costs and an income impasse as a result of a wide range of factors, from equipment to regulatory compliance. Will our guests shed light on how these escalating costs have added to the challenges faced by the fishermen? How has the financial burden impacted on their families, their quality of life and their future prospects?
Mr. John Menarry:
The price of everything is dictated by the price of fuel, whether product is being delivered or taken away. Between the increases in the cost of fuel for vessels, of storing and freezing bait and of transport to market, all our costs have increased. As primary producers, we are unable to pass on those increased costs. We are supplying suppliers whose costs, in turn, are increasing. They are able to cut the price they pay to us to slightly soften their cost increases. We have to absorb our own increase in costs and are getting a cut on the product we supply because other others' increasing costs. We are getting squeezed from both sides, which cuts our viability and means we cannot invest in our businesses. It is, in fact, a struggle to maintain the business we have, which puts pressure on the people involved and their families. It puts an awful strain not only financially but also mentally on people who are trying to survive with no supports.
Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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Mr. Menarry referred to shrimp and brown cab and the fact the season has squeezed, with a month or two coming off both the end and the start. Are buyers sourcing those products sourced elsewhere?
Mr. John Menarry:
What we have been told by our crab buyers is that because of the cost of storing the product, they are not willing to buy it to store on the chance of selling it. They are only buying for markets that are guaranteed. They are not willing to take risks at the moment because of the cost of storage, transport and everything else. They are not going to take the risk of storing product that they may or may not sell later. The longer they keep it, the most costs go up for them. Their margin is not there either.
Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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What measures could potentially address these challenges and ensure the sustainability and viability of the industry for the future?
Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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Earlier, Mr. Desmond stated:
The end of February 2019 brought renewed hope to the inshore fishermen all around Ireland when the then Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Michael Creed, launched the strategy for the Irish inshore fishery sector, which was to run from 2019 to 2023. This strategy set out a vision for the future of the inshore sector to provide a prosperous and sustainable future.
The strategy revolved around four main topics. Considering the inshore strategy was launched but not implemented by the current Government or the previous Government, could our guests explain the rationale behind the inaction, particularly given that such inaction in the private sector would likely have significant consequences?
Mr. Michael Desmond:
We believe that had that strategy been implemented, we would not be in front of the committee today. It is as simple as that. I have with me the strategy for the inshore fisheries sector, which is a comprehensive document that covers all aspects of the industry. It would have involved us meeting constantly with BIM, the Department and the processors in order that if the processors were being overstocked with a particular product, they could tell us and we would ease off on that product and supply something else. We were supposed to be able to target subsidies through the European Maritime and Fisheries Fund. An awful lot of time and effort went into designing the strategy and the lack of its implementation has left the inshore sector in the state it is in.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I thank our guests for their presentation. Those of us who come from coastal communities know the vital importance of the inshore fisheries sector. It is important to hear the presentation from our guests and to get guidance on what needs to be done. Reference has been made to the decision to close off pollock fishery, which was open to gillnet or hook-and-line fishing. My understanding is that the science behind that is questionable, in that it was based on landings rather than surveys. Do our guests have any understanding as to why it was closed?
Mr. John Menarry:
From my understanding, some of it is based on landings and some of it is based on bottom trawl surveys. We know that one of the major issues with the inshore sector is that it is data poor. There are processes in place to record the data but, for whatever reason, they are not working. There is a lack of data from the inshore sector. The sector would be reliant on pollock and the surveys that are used and feed into advice. From my understanding, a lot of the analysis was based on beam trawl surveys, which is a method of fishing that would not primarily catch pollock. If we are relying on data from a method that does not catch the fish, we are not going to see the fish. If we do not have the data from inshore fishing, the data will not be there. The EU, in hindsight, took the view that if it is not seeing it, it must not be there. It decided something had to be done and the fishery was closed to us.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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We in the coastal communities know, as our guests have pointed out, that there is an enormous overreliance on shellfish. Mr. Desmond pointed to the previous Government's decisions around salmon, trout, bass and eel. That leads me to the issue of mackerel and herring. Our guests have dealt with the issue in their presentation but perhaps they would indicate what change needs to happen to have a fair allocation of mackerel and herring for the inshore fishermen. From the perspective of NIFA, what needs to happen? What is a fair point to arrive at?
Mr. John Menarry:
We have a situation where the Minister is advocating at European level for us to have fair and equal access to a common resource. Herring and mackerel quotas are a national asset that do not belong to anybody in this country. We have an underlying issue. I do not know if everyone can see the graph I am holding but the blue section shows the size of the inshore fleet and also indicated is the allocation of fish that is available to the inshore fleet. Where I am now indicating illustrates the amount of fish to which larger vessels have access. You do not need to be a rocket scientist to understand there is an imbalance there. We are not asking for an enormous shift. At the moment, 12% of the mackerel quota is available to the polyvalent sector but due to ministerial policy, 97.5% of that 12% goes to 27 vessels. It used to be available to all polyvalent vessels. The term "polyvalent" means using many different forms. We could hook fish with hooks or nets or trawl for that allocation when it was available to us but due to ministerial policy, that has been removed from us. All we are looking for is to get access again to what we originally had access to.
We have heard numerous times on social media that the inshore sector is trying to take fish from here or there and that the sector is taking fish from somebody else. That is trying to muddy the waters, so to speak. All we are asking for is fair and equal access to what we previously had access to. Track record is a tool used to discriminate against inshore fishers. We are told we do not have a track record of fishing particular fish. We have historical records of fishing this species. Inshore fishing was there long before anything else but that seems to have been forgotten. This is something that could be changed quite simply by an adjustment of ministerial policy. Nothing is required at an EU level or anywhere else. It is not about taking fish from anybody. It is about having fair and equal access to a national resource.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Desmond said Ireland is in contravention of Article 17 of the Common Fisheries Policy.
Mr. John Menarry:
It is not just in contravention of Article 17, but it is also in contravention of the Government's own policy on how quotas should be distributed. It is in the Government's own quota management policy that it does not want to do anything to privatise or have quotas in such a way that they could be gathered together by larger companies, but basing quotas on track record and attaching them to vessels. Those with the money can buy tonnage with the track record attached. If they keep buying, they are amassing that.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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My next question is the big one. We have seen the shrimp and crab sectors in crisis. Obviously, the European market to a lesser extent and the Chinese market have been impacted. It strikes me that this will be ongoing. Following up on what Deputy Collins said, I think the inshore strategy was an excellent piece of work. It has much less jargon than is normal for these reports. It was very action orientated. It was a good read. However, as the witnesses have said, the problem is it just has not been implemented. Has Bord Iascaigh Mhara agreed to work with the National Inshore Fishermen's Association to do that? Regarding financial supports, it is clear that the inshore sector would like to have as much fish as possible. That is not happening and we will continue to work for that. What level of financial subsidy would be required in the inshore sector to make it viable and sustainable?
Mr. Michael Desmond:
Basically, we are delegating our survival to the hands of this committee. We do not have an income. I am a shrimp fisherman. The people who traditionally bought my shrimps are not buying them. The people who traditionally bought Mr. Menarry's and Mr. Dixon's crabs are not buying them. Some people do not have an income. We cannot get social welfare. Social welfare for certain fishermen does not exist. However, we are actually running businesses. There are crewmen depending on us. Forget about paying the mortgage; we cannot pay the average household bill if we do not have an income.
Farmers deserve the subsidies they get. They have the single farm payment and their world revolves around forecasts just as ours does. They have the new ACRES payment that came out, the sustainability payment and suckler payments. We have nothing; it is a case of tough luck lads when our income disappears from us. Unless something is done on subsidies, this whole section of the rural community will just disappear in the morning. We have come up with an inshore continuity grant for the last three or four years. Many inshore fishermen now work part time through no fault of their own. To distinguish between those, we said that they would get 25% of the income derived from fishing annually. Therefore, the part-time fishers would just be getting 25% of what they got from the fishing industry.
All coastal TDs in the Opposition agreed with it and they all wrote back to us. Coastal TDs in Government parties stood up in the Dáil and everyone was nodding in agreement, but nothing happened. It is just words and every six months someone will stand up and say "Yes, give it to them; they deserve it." However, all we hear are words without any action taken. That is why we are here today. The Department of the marine will say that it cannot help us because of budgetary restrictions and it just does not have the money at the moment. However, considering that we are providing seven onshore jobs for every sea job, could this committee not talk to the Department of rural development and the Department of enterprise to come up with an immediate fix for us and then afterwards get some sort of annual subsidy in place for us? We have 7:1. In Cornwall it is 15:1 because of a well-managed, sustainable hook-and-line fishery. We should be aspiring to that and not halving the jobs.
Much of the funding that has come from the macro-financial assistance, MFA, and Brexit adjustment reserve, BAR, funds is going towards tourism. People will always say that tourism is very important for jobs. That is true for six weeks of the year if we get fine weather. It is all very well that Günther and Helga enjoy themselves here for a couple of weeks, but they will be gone to Spain next week. Paddy and Mary will be in Australia. There were 24 people from Baltimore and Skibbereen spending Christmas in Sydney this year. They have all left within the past 12 months. By helping us the Government will be helping small coastal communities.
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the delegation. They would not be here if there were not a need for them to be here. They want to be at home fishing and not here making the case. If the strategy that Deputy Creed introduced had been carried out, would that have resolved some of the problems that the fishermen had?
Mr. Eamon Dixon:
It definitely would have done. The strategy was launched in 2019 and Covid came in 2020. Obviously, we had Brexit and stuff. Things happened that interfered in ways that were hard to predict over those two years, for sure. Had it been rolled out the way it was meant to have been, it would have made an enormous difference. Mr. Desmond has a copy of it and I am sure all members will be able to access it. The important thing is that the inshore sector is starting on another strategy which will run until 2027. It is very important that we get the issues that are so important to us addressed. Many of them were in that strategy. There are a few new ones but the majority were covered in that. We need to get those addressed in the very near future. That would help.
As Mr. Desmond just said, subsidies or some financial support is required. If what is in the strategy can be worked on and some of that can start to be rolled out to us, it would be of great help. Those from my region, the north west, certainly feel we need a dedicated person in BIM or some other State agency to co-ordinate it. If some of the proposals we have put forward are not rolled out and brought over the line, we need to be able to go back to somebody. There needs to be a co-ordinator. It is hard to do much nowadays in anything like that without having a dedicated co-ordinator. If I can pick up the phone and tell that co-ordinator that a key point in our strategy is not happening and we cannot survive without it, the person getting paid to do that job can go back to the powers that be and say the inshore sector needs this rolled out now. It would be a huge asset for us in the future if that could be done.
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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When the officials appear before the committee today, we need to ask them where that strategy is and what they are going to do about it. Who made the decision not to roll that strategy out? If a strategy was announced by a Minister in good faith with the fishing organisations, that strategy should be continued. The purpose of strategies is to plan for the future and to support the industry. To be fair to the industry, it is a very difficult industry and not one that people are queuing up to get into. Regarding the people working in it, it is hard to keep them in it. If what we are seeing continues-----
Mr. Eamon Dixon:
Regarding people queuing to get into it, they are actually queuing up to get out of it. I know that many of the TDs here represent rural communities. Fishing is like farming. Mr. Desmond touched on farming earlier. Fishing is vital to the rural communities in which it is based. It goes all over Ireland - Donegal, Sligo, Mayo, Limerick, Clare, Cork, Waterford, Wexford and right along the east coast. It is really important to all those counties. There are small fishing communities in every village there.
Their kids go to the schools. They spend money in every single one of those towns. They buy their food and most of their stuff in them. They are not going elsewhere to spend their money. If that is lost in the next couple of years, it will leave a huge hole in rural Ireland.
I know an election will be coming up in the next 18 months or so. I have listened many times to Members of this House say how important rural Ireland is to them. If it is, it is time they recognised the issues we have as fishermen in rural Ireland. You cannot say, on the one hand, that you love rural Ireland and then forget about it on the other. If you do, you will lose that. If you forget about something, that will get lost. All political parties, and everybody else, have the best intentions to look after these people but we really need Members help to ensure that is done in the future.
Issues such as better access to quotas, including for mackerel and herring, are vital. We need diversification. As Mr. Menarry said, some of that was quota share that we had, which was taken from us by ministerial decision in the past. That could be reversed in the morning. Members sit around every day making these decisions and they know this can be done. The inshore sector needs a little more of a quota. Some of the members will have seen the presentation we put to the Department for hook-and-line mackerel. It includes the figure that over 95% of the Irish fishing fleet is made up of inshore vessels. That is clear in BIM figures, not ours. That leaves only 5% on the other side, yet we have less than 1% of the mackerel quota. In herring, as Mr. Menarry said, we have in or around 5%. That is not viable. If our families are to survive in the communities we live in, fishing has to be viable.
Members would not give anyone they knew less than 1% of quota. If we were a minority group getting a quota of 1%, the committee would say something. We are the majority, however, accounting for over 90%, and we are still getting 1% of quota. People would find that very hard to live with in any country in the world.
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Can the Minister intervene on mackerel and other stocks that are there? Does it have to go to Europe?
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Can he make a decision or does he have to go to the European Council?
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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He can make a decision.
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is time we started putting pressure on. The other problem coming down the line is with the shellfish market. The fishermen represented here are the producers who sell the fish on but then it has to be exported. With the new Brexit laws coming in, and we will hear more about those in the next couple of weeks and months, it will be more difficult for the fishing industry. Other sectors are telling me that if something is not done about the rules and regulations arising from Brexit, they will be out of business. The fishers will be producing but no one will be able to bring the fish to Europe where the sales are-----
Mr. Eamon Dixon:
I hear the Deputy's point that it will get worse. It cannot get much worse, to be honest. I am over 40 years fishing and for the first time ever, in November last year, we were told by the processor we sell to that it could not take crab any longer. Most boats sell to dedicated processors in the different regions where we fish, the north west and south west. We cannot just jump across and ask another fellow to take my fish. Many will have the same boats selling to them all the time. There was nowhere to go. We were actually tied up last November because we could no longer sell the product. The live shellfish market was very poor at the time. There was a little increase for lobster at Christmas but that only lasted a week or two, as the buyers will confirm, and then it was gone again straight away. Our hands are tied.
Another important point is that we do not want to give this up. It is our way of life. We have been at it since we were kids and we want to stay at. We want to keep our families in those areas, it is critically important to us, but we need a chance to be able to do that. We need help and we have to get it. Unless we can get backing from across the political divide, the inshore fishing industry will crumble. It will be a sad day when that industry is gone from this country. That is a guarantee.
Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I have listened and there are two big issues. First, there has to be some kind of a subsidy in the short term and, second, the inshore fishers have to be allowed into existing stock. That has to be done immediately as otherwise these fishermen will not be in the industry. We should put pressure on the Department in that regard when its officials appear later.
Mr. John Menarry:
The Deputy touched on Brexit and said it will cause more issues for the inshore sector. There were 16 support schemes for the seafood sector from the BAR funding, totalling more than €420 million. Of that €420 million, the inshore sector got zero, nothing. We are being affected by it but we did not get support. There was almost €1 billion of funding for supports for the inshore sector, the largest sector in the fishing industry, and we got zero supports from the BAR funding.
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the three men from the National Inshore Fishermen's Association. Something has to be acknowledged first. In my experience of fishing, the inshore, smaller guys were totally disunited historically. It is great to see them coming forward as a national organisation. I wish the organisation well and every success.
When I was a young fellow growing up, I would hear it said that the small boats must stay near the shore and the bigger vessels can venture our further. That is the difficulty the fishermen here have. If they go out more than five or six miles from the shore, and I say this in a positive way, they are out of their depth. I was listening attentively. Most of these issues could be resolved by the Government and the Department. We cannot blame the EU here. It is a bit of small tweaking of the pelagic quota that the inshore men are looking for, going from 1%, say, to 5%. What difference would that make to the inshore lads? We may not be able to resolve issues with the market. I have been around politics for nearly 40 years. I would put my hands up and say the political system has failed the fishermen.
Mr. Eamon Dixon:
It is a good question. If the Government were to look at this, it would make a colossal difference to us. It would keep the people in our communities. It would keep a GAA team in a town. If we keep losing the young people, how will we replace them? It is like anything, including politics, you have to have young people coming through. We have families in rural Ireland but the problem is we are losing them because the opportunities are not there.
To take my own boat, for instance, I have two young lads. One is in college and the other is not. It is very difficult for me to say to him to come fishing with me and if he holds on, he will be able to make a living out of it in the future. As it stands, he would not be able to do that. The opportunity is there, if we were given access to the quota, but at the moment we do not have it.
Senator O'Donovan made a serious and important point. If we were to get a little more and we could get back some pelagic quotas that we had before, particularly for mackerel and herring, it would give us the opportunity to do that and we would be able to hand our boats on to others knowing they would be able to make a living out of them. That is all you can ask for in any way of life. To be able to make a living in the community that you live in is so important to everybody.
Mr. John Menarry:
We have spoken a good bit about mackerel and herring and the crab issue. Not all fishermen around the coast will go and fish herring or mackerel if we got those opportunities. However, taking a chunk of vessels out of crab or shrimp would take pressure off the shellfish stocks for the fisher who says herring and mackerel are no good to him and a waste of time. That would increase market demand and help him.
It is very important for people to remember, including those watching today, that directing some of the fleet in another direction takes pressure off those who are left behind.
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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I also suggest and ask that if there were a little imagination, innovation and thinking outside the box, or some tweaking of the existing set-up by either BIM or the Department to give fishermen a little break or leeway, it would go a long way to resolving the issues they have. It will not resolve everything but it seems the tide is against them. A bit of innovation or imagination from the Department is needed to say, "Lads, there is an issue here. Can we help you in any way?". In that regard, do the witnesses feel isolated from the body politic, the Department and BIM?
Mr. Eamon Dixon:
I will come in on that. When we talk to the Department, we are being told at every turn that these quotas are a national asset and every member of the State has a right to them. It is the case that all these quotas, whatever they are for, should be shared out in a fair and viable manner. As inshore fishermen, when it comes to any quota, not just the ones we have discussed, we are always at the bottom of the pile. Regulations are forcing us in such a way as to make it almost impossible for us to continue. That is the way we feel as inshore fishermen. Even if there is a quota by times, there are regulations around it that make it so difficult to try to make it viable to land it.
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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There are two Senators here. There is a vote on and we are being told, a bit like the witnesses, that the Whip is on us. I am not sure whether we have to go.
I will come back to an issue that should be emphasised more. It is very interesting to hear that for the one man who is out fishing, and people should understand we are talking about a boat of approximately 6 m or 7 m, up to maximum of 15 m or 17 m, he is creating seven jobs on shore. I have nothing against the bigger boats but in the area where I live, whether it is in Castletownbere or Union Hall, the vast majority of the crews on those boats are not even Irish. They probably cannot even get local fellas. You will not get a young fella from Schull, Belmullet or Donegal to go out for a seven-day trip. It is not conducive to them. There is a reality to what is being achieved as regards the seven jobs on shore. If fishing is taken out of the Mizen Peninsula where I live, similar to Belmullet or west Kerry, that area would be very depleted. You would not see too many in the local shop.
I would like the witnesses to clarify, when they are not fishing and are tied up for whatever reason, whether it is weather, markets collapsing or a lack of quotas, what do they get? Is there any funding for when they are tied up for two months whereby they are allowed access to some social welfare contribution? Maybe one or other of the representatives could explain that to the committee. Sometimes, we are ignorant of these situations. We think we know everything but they are the people on the ground.
Mr. John Menarry:
Even in asking that question, the Senator is viewing us as individuals. Every vessel is a business. Even if it is only one man in the boat, it is a business. We have talked to the Department previously about social welfare and other opportunities, but we have a business to sustain. If you are talking about giving a man what he would get on the dole, it will not sustain his business or overheads. It is the view people have of fishermen as individual people but we are businesses. As the Senator said, we support seven jobs ashore. Even when we are ashore, we are spending money, buying and maintaining gear and maintaining the vessels. When we are ashore, that is when we spend the most money. When we are fishing, we do not have time to spend the money. A fisherman ashore with nothing to do is a dangerous thing. At the minute, however, we do not have the money to spend and our businesses are suffering. If our businesses are suffering, other people you do not see are suffering further down the line.
To go back to the Senator's point about the crewing on larger vessels, inshore was the breeding ground for those people in those larger vessels. Every one of those guys will tell you that he started off inshore and progressed, but there is not the competition in the inshore sector. Guys are not fighting to get into it and some of them are being pushed onto those larger boats. A weak inshore sector is affecting those larger vessels. It is very important that those vessel owners see that their problem with crew is because they are not being developed and nurtured in the inshore sector.
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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The clock is running down. One other point of interest is that we always hear of an issue with the six nautical mile exclusion zone. I find that hard to comprehend. I grew up on the shores of Bantry Bay. In the days of the old British Empire strength, before the State was ever formed, there were rules and regulations governing the big trawlers, which were not half the size they are now. They were timber trawlers. One rule was that there was no trawling between sunset and sunrise. The notion at the time was they would come in and encroach on the lives of the smaller fellas onshore. I was looking out over Schull Harbour a week before Christmas. There were two vessels, which in my view were a lot bigger than 18 m, and they were pair-trawling in the harbour for pilchards or whatever. I could not believe it was going on because the money made on that is small, whatever use is made of pilchards. Yet, they are encroaching on and damaging the pots, lines and gear, which the fishermen, including the likes of the witnesses, have to put up with. Will any of them tell me, if they were to start off in the morning and put out a couple of lines of 300 pots, which is not a lot, with the cost of rope and gear or whatever, what would it cost them?
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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That is approximately €30,000 to start off, if my sums are correct.
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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What is the situation with the six-mile limit? Are we wasting our time on it?
Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fail)
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Common sense should prevail. Fishermen cannot go out 50 miles and encroach on other territory.
Mr. Michael Desmond:
There were legal issues over it. We are now waiting for the Minister to restart public consultation on it again. We are just waiting to see what will happen. There is a lot of misinformation with regard to the six miles, including that we wanted pair-trawling banned. We never asked for any method of fishing to be banned ever. We have members who take part in dredging, hook and line, netting, bottom trawling and everything. It was not fishermen who came up with this. It was the Department of the marine that asked inshore fishermen whether they would back a six-mile limit where boats over 18 m would stay outside it and be restricted from fishing inside it. Of course, they said yes because it would increase opportunities but now we are being told, and there are a lot of NGOs-----
Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I thank our guests. I listened attentively to what they had to say. As Mr. Menarry said, these fishermen are businessmen. Very often, many of them take out a second mortgage on their house to buy their boats, which is very serious. We understand they have family commitments there as well.
On the six-mile limit, it was said there is a technicality on the Department side. Where is that at present? How can we progress it? According to the witnesses' report, BIM is not exactly a shining light, to be honest. It does not seem to be co-operating with them at all. I propose that the committee write to BIM to find out its position on the strategy and why it has not co-operated with inshore fishermen. I also propose that we invite the Minister before the committee to address the problems these people have. They have made three or four very straightforward points.
They have just told us that it needs just a change in policy, which can be done by the Minister. That is one thing they are saying. They also say there is 12% available to the sector, as regards the quota. Is that correct?
Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Menarry said another direction is needed for people to shift in different ways in different fishing industries. Let us take bluefin tuna as an example. We know that that is a very lucrative fish. We also know that the Chinese are coming in and sweeping them up. It is one of the most expensive-----
Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. I understand that.
Mr. Eamon Dixon:
Ten or 15 years ago, there was no issue with bluefin tuna. There was probably the odd one around, but they have accumulated now. From talking to lads on the south coast, I understand there were very many of them this year, and even on the west to north-west coast, in Donegal Bay. They were there in abundance. You would be looking not to catch them now if you did not want them.
Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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It is the same off the coast of Wexford.
Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Definitely, because, as I said, just-----
Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I have been conversing with lads in Kilmore and they tell me they look over the border and see all these fish go by and they cannot catch them. They watch the Chinese 100 m away from them, who are cleaning up on them.
Mr. John Menarry:
On the point about bluefin tuna, there is an EU quota there that the Minister can ask to get. Whether he gets it or not we do not know, but he can ask for it. When the UK left the European Union last year, it had a quota of 65 tonnes, which would be of massive benefit to the inshore sector - even just a small quota like that. That 65 tonnes was 0.25% of the EU allocation, so we are not talking about hundreds of tonnes or massive amounts of quota.
The Deputy asked a question about the six-mile limit as well.
Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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About the legislation. Where is it at the moment? Can it be progressed, or can we help in any way?
Mr. John Menarry:
From what we have been told, they are looking into it again. They have to assess the data again because it has been such a long time since it was introduced. We feel there is a fear now, because of the increased activity from when the ban was introduced, that they could turn around now and say, "There is much more activity there; we cannot implement it." You could have another case where, because of the failed implementation of the policy, the inshore sector suffers even more because of the increased activity because of that failed policy.
On the point about the public consultation on that, I think it received the largest response in the history of the State. There were over 900 responses, which was the most ever. If the Minister can ignore such a public response, not even from a fishing point of view, it shines a poor light on the Department.
Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Just off my coast, the Wexford coast, as regards the marine protection areas, many of the inshore fishermen are very worried about the future. What will it take? Do the witnesses envisage a ban on fishing in those areas or what is the position on that?
Mr. Michael Desmond:
We hope not but we know that certain marine NGOs are looking for that. Marine protected areas, MPAs, are coming whether we like it or not - we are aware of that fact - but they cannot be just brought in with no fishing area for the sake of it. You hear certain NGOs state that there should be no fishing in 10% of the waters. Where? In the inshore grounds? In the offshore grounds? They say, "It does not matter - just somewhere." Their 10% could be my 100%. If outside Belmullet the bay is closed, or Inver in Donegal is closed, or Roaringwater Bay is closed, if that is part of the 10%, that is our 100%.
Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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It is envisaged that there will be 30% within 2030, which is six years away. It is 30% of the fishing area.
Mr. Michael Desmond:
Yes, but it needs to be done based on sound scientific and environmental facts. The closure of a particular area has to be based on certain environmental and scientific facts that will improve it. So far I have seen various NGOs state that about 90% of surveys of MPAs state that they will be successful because of this, but then, when you look into it, 85% of those surveys are theory surveys. Everyone knows that theory is a word to describe something that does not happen in reality. I know a bay that has in it an SAC where we are not allowed to fish for scallop, so, in theory, the scallop in that bay should have improved. They have not. They have to talk to stakeholders before they go closing anything.
Mr. Eamon Dixon:
I will give a very good example of that that is very important for all the members to hear. They may hear that in the past, inshore fishermen were a broken group and argued more often with themselves than with the powers against which they should have been arguing. However, something that has really strengthened how the inshore sector has improved over recent years is what is now happening with offshore renewables and the committee that was set up by Robert McCabe. I think it actually had a meeting today. Inshore has integrated into that brilliantly. The work being done by all the people who sit on that committee, not just the inshore people, shows that if inshore representatives are given a chance to work with people, they are well capable of doing so and we can find successful solutions to most the problems. The same will go for the MPAs and so on. If the powers that be sit down with the inshore representatives, ways can be found. Fishing should not be banned in any area. There can be ways of mitigating the effort being made there in order to be able to continue some of it.
Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Chairman, maybe I could have a seconder for the two proposals I made.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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It is open to the floor, Deputy. Both the proposals are seconded by Deputy Collins.
Deputy Fitzmaurice, do you want to contribute?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I was listening to the witnesses' submissions. A couple of things spring to mind. I noted that they stated that 30% of the fishing area will be under pressure with new regulation or designation. Are they talking about the nature restoration law, NRL?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Where do the witnesses fit in with the nature restoration law?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Can the witnesses explain the 30%? If they have 30% and the nature restoration law, they will hardly put a boat out anywhere they are.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Is Mr. Menarry talking about SACs, SDAs-----
Mr. John Menarry:
No, marine protected areas, MPAs. The socioeconomic part of it was mentioned. I said to Mr. Noonan, half-joking, and you get more worried as the time goes along, that inshore fishermen will need an MPA to operate in because we are getting squeezed so much between SACs, Natura 2000 and offshore renewables. I asked where we would operate and said we might need an area protected for ourselves.
On the point about MPAs, we do not have a problem with MPAs in theory, but you have to identify what needs protecting first. You cannot just say, "We will protect this area." What will it be protected for? What needs protecting? Once you know what needs protecting, what does it need protecting from? We encounter whales, dolphins and all sorts of wildlife every day we are at sea. We pose no issue or threat to them. If they need protecting in the area, it is not from fishermen they need protecting. It is very important that there is proper engagement and that fishermen are listened to when these MPAs are being brought in.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I will advise the witnesses to do one thing. I am no expert on fishing so I will not claim to be something I am not, but I followed the nature restoration law. At the end of next month, it will be voted on in Brussels. I know that the proposal on marine areas has been watered down a bit, but if what they are proposing on land is anything to go by, even watered down, it would be detrimental if the likes of the fishermen were to suffer the same consequences. I therefore advise them to be fairly watchful of that. We are even getting parts of it now when we get legal advice.
Any MEP who votes for it next week will be a traitor to this country, in my opinion. There are even parts of it now that will show that on designated areas, farmers will be forced to rewet. It can be seen if one goes through all the different parts of it. Everybody was talking about Article 9 for fishing, marine and for land, but Articles 41 and 42 and part of Article 56 are going to catch everything. That is on legal advice we have got. I would advise the witnesses to watch out for that.
On the other thing, the witnesses talked about bluefin, is it?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Did I pick up correctly that the witnesses are saying that boats can come in from other countries and park off Donegal or down south or wherever?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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And they can-----
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Can Irish fishermen do so?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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What will it take to help fishermen in this situation?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Okay.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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It is basically down to a Minister fighting for that?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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There is an awful lot more of them in the area than they used to be, is that correct?
Mr. John Menarry:
It is laughable that we have such a small share of herring quota in Donegal. Of the fish we catch, some of it is being block frozen and shipped to the Mediterranean to fatten bluefin tuna that have swum in our waters. They are caught in the Mediterranean, put into cages and fattened. Not only are the bluefin tuna here feeding on our stocks, the wee bits that we do catch are being shipped off to follow them to the Mediterranean to feed them up even further.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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That is all I have to ask. I thank the Chair.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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We will try to move forward quickly if we can, as we are already over time. We will go seven minutes each for non-members and I will contribute myself before the end
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I really appreciate that Chair because I am not a member of this committee, as he knows. I welcome the witnesses here today, particularly Eamon from Belmullet.
I will ask a couple of quick questions together. We have been fighting for a long time for the fair distribution of quotas. What rationale has the Minister given for not addressing the fact that 95% of the fishing fleet is getting less than 1% of the mackerel quota and only 5% of the herring quota?
The other question is, why do the inshore fishermen get none of the €420 million when they provide 53% of the jobs?
In terms of the redistribution of the quota and the lack of data that was there previously, so to speak, is it the situation that fishermen on the 1,600 inshore boats are being forced to conceal the full catch because they do not have the quota?
In terms of the single payment, is there another country where there is a subsidy like that? There is the single farm payment; is there a single boat payment anywhere else? Has any costing been done on doing such a payment here? It could take into account the actual monetary layout, the jobs it would save and the contribution to the community it would make. Any of the witnesses can address these questions.
Mr. Michael Desmond:
I can take the money side of it if Mr. Dixon wants to do the quota question afterwards. The funding was from the Brexit adjustment reserve fund, BAR . Everyone knows the effect Brexit had on the fishing industry in Ireland. We were not allowed on the task force because we were not a producer organisation at the time, so we had to feed into it and give our opinion. Of the fleet, 95% got no financial aid whatsoever from however many hundreds of millions of euro it was. They said it was because we could not prove that we were negatively affected by the quota being decreased. The biggest decrease in quota was in mackerel, which was 25%, but we were denied access to the mackerel quota by our own Government. The reason we lost 25% of the mackerel quota was because Michel Barnier's negotiators saw which quota was affecting the smallest number of people. When they saw that the mackerel quota was only affecting 40-something boats, they gave away 25% of it. It was ironic, but we lost out both ways. We gave many reasons we were affected by Brexit but we could not use them because they were not specific to the fishing industry. We were told by both the Department and BIM officials at the time that we could not say that, because sheep or chicken farmers might say the same thing. Because we might have opened the door to somebody else from outside the fishing industry being able to claim the money, we were not allowed to use those reasons. Therefore, 95% of the Irish fishing fleet got no direct financial aid from a BAR scheme that was supposed to be for the Irish fishing industry. There was €48 million in a tie-up scheme for the larger white fish trawlers - which they deserved - no one is saying they did not. I do not know how much the decommissioning scheme came to, but it was probably something similar. There was €26 million for the pelagic fishing boats but for 95% of the fleet it was just, "sorry lads".
Mr. John Menarry:
On that, we are the primary producer in our supply chain. Everybody above us got supports and funding. We were all told we were all links in a chain. As primary producers, we are the anchor at the end of the chain and if the anchor is lost, the entire chain is lost. Despite this, we did not get any funding or support. We were told we were not directly impacted, but everybody we supply was. This is hard to understand, from our point of view.
Mr. Eamon Dixon:
We also need to take into consideration that the licences we have are all the same. They are all polyvalent fishing licences at the end of the day, apart from some very specific ones. Even the small 1% share of mackerel that we have was called an allocation, so therefore it gave us no entitlement. Pollock, which a lot of the inshore vessels were catching, was not considered for it. We were given no entitlement for it. It was almost as if the actual species that could get support were hand-picked and the ones that the inshore fishermen were fishing were left out. That is almost what it boiled down to at the end of the day, which was crazy really.
Mr. Michael Desmond:
On the question the Deputy asked about whether other EU countries are able to avail of subsidies for their inshore fisheries, the answer is "Yes". In Spain, the inshore fishermen are able to get fuel subsidies and direct subsidies from the European Maritime Fisheries and Aquaculture Fund, EMFAF. Even though we had the double whammy of Covid and everything else, within that, the European Commissioner for fisheries, Mr. Sinkeviius, brought in Article 26.2. This states that, because of the war in Ukraine, each coastal state can use as it sees fit, money to target the fishing sectors that were affected by the disruption in the market. On 13 December 2022, it was read out for the Minister and then it was not applied for. In 2023, it was not applied for. We told the Department it was there. They told us it was not and now we have had confirmation in January of this year that yes, in fact, it was there, but we are too late.
That is why we are here. The committee will be told by the Department that there is no money available because there really is not this year. Could the committee, possibly from somewhere else within the other rural developments or enterprise give something to the fishermen? It would not amount to 1% of the farmers in Ireland
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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That was negligence on the part of the Minister in not making the fund available.
Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I thank the Chairman. I know he is under pressure so I will try to be brief and to the point. I thank the witnesses for being here this evening because it is very important and very timely. Over the past number of years, I have been putting down parliamentary questions and raising issues on the plight of inshore fishing families.
The one thing that never ceases to amaze me, as explained perfectly by Mr. Desmond a moment ago, is not a whammy but a double whammy of knock-on effects, including "why you cannot" or "why we cannot" or "why we are not able to". It is like every door you go to the door is closed firmly in your face. I am, however, looking at other sectors and we see that there is assistance. There are bailouts, there is help, there is assistance, there are tax concessions and every type of support - and rightly so but the one group of people continuously left behind is those who get a full-time or, more predominantly now, a part-time income from inshore fishing. In the county I represent, while it is not big numbers, I have a lot of these people and, my goodness, they are as entitled to be taken care of as anybody else, no matter what sector they are in. I am aware that the witnesses' groups do this in an excellent way. They are also entitled to have their politicians standing up talking for them and fighting and advocating on their behalf.
I am coming to the nub of my question. What can be done even now to try and save these families and the people who are involved in trying to make a modest or part-time living? What can we do? This is why it is so timely that the witnesses are here today and so important that they are here. Whether we are in opposition or whether it is Government-supporting representatives, this is a cross-party issue and every one of us should be singing off the same hymn sheet. This sector is in dire trouble. Do we want to lose it or save it? I believe we are actually at that type of crossroads. We have lost so much of what I would call our core important things, for instance in different types of farming. Small farming has gone out the window. It is getting more and more difficult. We have lost Bord na Móna and we have lost a lot of great things we had in the past. One thing that I certainly do not want to see us losing is the whole validity and viability of a person being able to be involved in fishing in a small way. It might be a part-time or full-time living for that person and their family. It is very important. I ask the representatives to work with us in trying to help us to help them and the people they represent. I thank with witnesses for representing the people in a good strong way. It is fine that the lobby groups are pulling their weight, but as I have said, every door they go to is being closed in their face.
Mr. John Menarry:
The Deputy has spoken about doors being closed in our faces. We had a meeting just before Christmas and we sat for maybe 30 or 40 minutes listening to departmental officials telling us what they could not do for us. I attended the meeting online and commented that I did not care what they could not do for us, no more than this committee, from which we are looking for help. What the Department or the committee cannot do for us is irrelevant and we do not need to hear about it. We need to hear what can be done.
A question was asked about the quota and the rationale for how it is distributed. We have been told on numerous occasions that for us to get more others would have to take less but there was never a mention of this when we had to take less so others could benefit. It is a null point for us. Those who have the quota at the minute have been very well rewarded, and rightly so, due to the losses of Brexit so I do not see why a small amount of that could not be given back to sector that lost in the first place.
Mr. Eamon Dixon:
We just need a viable share. As Deputy Healy-Rae said, and as we said earlier, it is another link in the chain. It takes a lot of things to make up inshore fishing and everybody knows that. It is no one thing. Most inshore boats will do four or five things, if they have to, to diversify between them but we need it to be viable. The share we have is not viable. All the members have to do is look at that presentation we sent to them today from the executive to see the shares that are there. As we said earlier to the chairman, a national school child in second class could look at those diagrams and ask, "What is going on here?" This is not acceptable and it would not be acceptable to them.
I am aware the committee supports us here but it is about where we live and the communities we represent and the members represent, and very proudly as well. However, we do it in a different way as we are fishers in those communities and we want to keep our families in them. As with Deputy Healy-Rae's comment, it is all links in the chain. We hear every day about small farmers, pubs and shops closing in villages. This is all because different links are being lost out of the chain all the time. If we can try to keep those links together that is what keeps those communities going. Inshore fishing is one of the most important links in that chain throughout the country and we just need to make sure it survives.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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I wish to ask about the industry. Will Mr. Desmond give us a brief outline of where the industry is since last November having effectively been tied up since last November. When does he expect to be actually back on water and making a living? How did fishers survive in the past 12 weeks? Was it fishing assist and that kind of help? As Mr. Menarry mentioned, fishers are small businesses and not just individuals. Can the witnesses give us an indication of how the communities are surviving in particular in the past two months?
Mr. Michael Desmond:
Borrowing and stealing I suppose. We cannot get money by going into a bank or a credit union or any other financial institution and asking them for money. They would ask, "Why do you need it?", and our reply is "Because the market collapsed". They might ask when it would reopen again but I do not know the answer to that. Is the bank going to give that money? It has just been impossible for us. Members have no idea what it has been like for us. I do not know how many times we have asked and this is not the first time, although it is the first time we have been here. For years other coastal Deputies have stood up in the Dáil asking for something, and all the Members agree but nothing gets done. Looking at where we have been it has gotten 100 times worse since last November. Is there a sign of it getting better? No, not without the political will.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Where is the brown crab market at the moment? Where is that market going forward?
Mr. Eamon Dixon:
Iit is still very fragmented. There are issues in it. We are being told that some of the poor economy relates back to the Ukraine war. There is poor economy in Europe. There was what looked like something that was going to help us there. Reference was made here to farming access to the Chinese market. We were supposed to be getting back to regain a little bit more access to that market but when the war happened the Russians started sending crab into the Chinese market really cheaply, perhaps not directly but maybe through another country. That basically took the Irish crab out of that market again as the Chinese did not want to pay for it. If they are getting cheaper product obviously they are going to take it. There are issues around it. From what we are being told by the people we sell to, they do not know how next year will be. Certainly they are saying not to be expecting anything big. We can take it that prices will be low again and it will be very hard to make it viable again.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Will the witnesses explain the lack of data in their industry at the moment. For example, a boat only needs a log book if it is under a certain level. Going forward what changes need to happen at Department level? Number one, we need to collect data so we understand what is happening on the ground. Number two, if there are issues, because that data is collected we can prove there is a significant drop in production. The fishers could then fight their case for compensation.
Mr. John Menarry:
On the data side of things, there are processes. There are sales notes. When I sell my product to a buyer, within 48 hours of that sale taking place the buyer is supposed to submit the weight and species that was logged, and what was bought and what was paid for it. That is supposed to be submitted to SFPA within 48 hours of that sale. There seems to be an issue with those sales notes being submitted, be it at the buyer level or at SFPA level, but the data just seems to disappear. There were issues with that and when guys inquired about their sales notes, whether they came from buyers or whether they were stuck in the system, they seemed to come in dribs and drabs and lumps. We asked about this at a previous meeting with the SFPA office because this is supposed to be the regulation and the law.
A sales note is supposed to be in within 48 hours. We asked if a sales note then appears weeks or months later, and is submitted, then surely somebody has broken the law or the regulation or whatever. We asked if there are repercussions. We did not get an answer from the SFPA. There are processes there but they are not working.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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With regard to the huge issue of the breakdown in the shellfish market in particular, can fishers diversify into other markets? Traditionally, there was access to mackerel previously. If there was more access to mackerel would the boats have the opportunity to fill a potential quota there, like in 2021 or 2022 when there was significant access and boats made a significant volume of landings? Will the witnesses explain to us what happened then and what were the volumes of landings?
Mr. Eamon Dixon:
Yes. We have been lobbying for an increase in the hook and line quota for quite a while. We have been doing this through the National Inshore Fisheries Forum, NIFF, and through smaller organisations throughout the country. In that year we were given a significant chance to land to prove we could actually land quota, and we did do that. We were stopped, I believe, in the middle of June that year.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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From January to June the boats managed to land-----
Mr. Eamon Dixon:
Maybe it was not January to June. It probably started around the middle of April or May, depending on when the fish came into the inshore waters where we are allowed to catch them. From whenever we started - it could have been the beginning of May - and up to when we were stopped, I believe it was 9 June or 10 June.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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It is a significant issue that fishers could fill their income with that kind of landing. This is kind of what the witnesses have talked about here. It would give them the income to survive because they could diversify, as on that occasion.
Mr. Eamon Dixon:
Yes, I suppose when the fish are there, we need to be able to take them. Again, we are sometimes restricted by the quota management and the people who manage the quotas and make the regulations. We were adamantly against some of the ones they made that restricted us in. If a boat is restricted to only landing six tonnes for the month, once that boat has the six tonnes landed, whether it takes the fishers three days or ten days to land it, they are then basically tied up because they are not allowed to go out again. Let us consider us relative to the bigger boats. One of those larger vessels that is going out to Scotland to catch its quota would not be restricted. They are not restricted to six tonnes. They would not go if they were restricted to six tonnes.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Are all the fishers' landings made in Ireland?
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Do the fishers have any issues with the actual regulation regarding landing?
Mr. Eamon Dixon:
No we do not. The other aspect is - as every fisher will tell you - if we have something that is fair, everybody will work around it. Nobody minds playing by the rules once they have a fair share of what they are at. A fair share can be quantified once it is a viable share. It has to be viable and worthwhile to do. The committee members would not be here, and nobody would do a job, unless it is viable and a living could be made out of it. That is a given for every citizen in this country.
Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses. They have clarified many issues. On behalf of the committee I thank them for their contributions.