Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 13 December 2023
Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport And Media
Football Association of Ireland's Facility Investment Vision and Strategy, and Governance Issues: Discussion
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Ladies and gentlemen, you are all welcome to today's discussion and deliberations. The committee is meeting today with Department officials, representatives from Sport Ireland and current and former representatives of the FAI to discuss the FAI's facility investment vision and strategy. We also recently reported some governance issues. That is all open for discussion today.
I warmly welcome the witnesses. We have so many guests with us today that we had to move to a bigger committee room to make space for everybody. It is great to be able to fit everybody in. I see we have Mr. Packie Bonner joining us via Teams. You are very welcome, Mr. Bonner. From the sports division of the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht Sport and Media, I welcome Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin, assistant secretary, and Mr. Micheál Ó Conaire, principal officer. They are no strangers to these committee rooms. From Sport Ireland, I welcome Dr. Úna May, CEO, Mr. Colm McGinty, director of governance, and Mr. Jason McLoughlin, director of finance. From the FAI, I welcome Mr. Jonathan Hill, chief executive officer, and Mr. Paul Cooke, president, board member and member of the audit, risk, compliance and finance committee. Mr. Cooke, congratulations on your new role as president. I wish you the very best of luck into the future. On behalf of the committee, I also welcome, as I said, Mr. Packie Bonner, who is one of the board members and joins us remotely via Microsoft Teams. We also have Ms Liz Joyce, board member and chair of the executive performance and remuneration committee. We welcome Ms Catherine Guy, board member and member of the executive performance and remuneration committee, and Ms Niamh O'Mahony, board member and member of the executive performance and remuneration committee. We have had Mr. David Courell, chief operating officer, in before. Mr. Courell, you are very welcome. We are also joined by Mr. Ger McDermott, grassroots director. You are all very welcome. I am also very grateful to have the attendance of Gerry McAnaney, former but not that former president of the FAI, and Mr. Roy Barrett, former independent chairperson. You are very welcome, Mr. Barrett.
As I said, I have a wee bit of housekeeping to go through, so please bear with me. The format of today's meeting is such that I will invite our witnesses to deliver opening statements, which are limited to five minutes each.
I ask them to adhere to that to leave enough time for my colleagues to ask their questions. The statements will be followed by questions from members of the committee. As the witnesses are probably aware, the committee may publish the opening statements and briefing documentation on its website. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Before we proceed to the opening statements, I will explain some limitations on parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to the committee. However, witnesses who give evidence from outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness who gives evidence from within the parliamentary precincts and may consider it appropriate to take advice on the matter. Persons giving evidence from any other jurisdiction should also be mindful of domestic law and how it may apply to the evidence given by them. I do not think we have that scenario today.
Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to any identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative they comply with such direction.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also remind colleagues of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House to participate in public meetings.
With that said, I propose we proceed to the opening statements and I invite Mr. Jonathan Hill to give the first opening statement on behalf of the FAI. The floor is his. He has five minutes.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Good.
Mr. Jonathan Hill:
-----so I will stay within the five-minute deadline.
On behalf of the FAI I thank the Cathaoirleach, Deputies and Senators for the invitation to address the committee today. We were originally due to address this committee on the FAI’s facility investment vision and strategy, the primary purpose of which is to ensure every part of Irish football has access to the best possible facilities and that every girl and boy throughout Ireland will have access to basic facilities such as toilets, changing rooms, equipment and playing pitches. We look forward to discussing this with the committee in greater detail today.
We also welcome the opportunity to provide clarification on recent governance-related matters regarding adherence to MOU condition 35, one of 163 recommendations set out in Memorandum of Understanding, MOU, which is our agreement with the Government in respect of restoration of funding and the provision of additional funding support to the FAI for the period 2020 to 2023. First, for the record, I once again apologise unreservedly for what has transpired in recent weeks. While we have made strong progress on governance reform, we recognise these events have placed the spotlight on Irish football for all the wrong reasons and evoked memories of the recent past which we know Irish football needs to move on from. I also regret that these events take the focus away from the phenomenal work being done across all levels of Irish football, from grassroots to the League of Ireland through to our international teams. I also apologise for the difficulty it has caused for our outstanding and hard-working staff, as well as for Sport Ireland and the Department. It has been an unnecessary and unhelpful distraction at a time when much good work is being done across Irish football and across Irish sport in general.
I will address the specific issue at hand. Agreed in January 2020, the MOU between the FAI and the Government was put in place for the period 2020 to 2023. MOU condition 35 covered the CEO’s remuneration and required it to be in line with Government pay guidelines for a Secretary General. To ensure the recommendations contained within the MOU were being adopted by the FAI, regular audits have been carried out by KOSI Corporation Limited on behalf of Sport Ireland. The outcome of the audit in respect of MOU condition 35, which the FAI supported in full with our counterparts at KOSI and Sport Ireland, concluded the FAI had not embedded MOU condition 35 in 2022 and that, in short, the CEO's total remuneration in 2022 exceeded that of a Secretary General.
Following receipt of the report and the KOSI recommendations in it, the FAI took immediate corrective action and I returned the moneys in question in full. The Department and Sport Ireland are now fully satisfied that MOU condition 35 is embedded and we welcome the decision of the Department and Sport Ireland to resume funding the association. While we sincerely believed we were acting in accordance with the MOU at all times, and while it was unintentional, we acknowledge we did not comply fully with MOU condition 35 in 2022. This cannot happen again and a process of identifying and implementing lessons learned has already commenced.
We are now looking forward to 2024 and continuing to build on the progress made in reforming the organisation over the past three years. We are trying to do the right things for Irish football and to set it up for success for current and future generations. While recent events may result in people questioning whether the FAI has reformed itself, the reality and truth of the matter is that we have. The organisation has reformed significantly over the past three years. Evidence of this is seen in the considerable progress made in governance reforms through the implementation of recommendations set out in the MOU, of which 98% are expected to be complete by the end of 2023. We welcome recent comments made by Sport Ireland and the Minister of State, Deputy Thomas Byrne, acknowledging the significant progress made by the FAI on its governance reform agenda.
However, governance reform of the FAI does not end once we have fully implemented all recommendations of the MOU. It is and will continue to be a core part of the association moving forward. We always want our organisation to be fully transparent and have a trusting relationship with the Government, Sport Ireland and all stakeholders. The road to recovery was never going to be easy. We accept the level of scrutiny around the FAI and know that, given previous challenges, we will be held to the highest standards and will face more scrutiny than others, which is understandable. I assure the committee, everyone involved in football and the wider public that the modern FAI is a different organisation. It is filled with honest, hardworking, talented, and highly capable people, some of whom are alongside me here today. Collectively, we are working extremely hard to improve the reputation of Irish football and we are united behind a simple vision: using football to inspire a nation and connect communities.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Hill will have to draw to a close, if he does not mind. We have just run out of time.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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It is just to keep things moving. We have all read his opening statement and that will be recorded in the minutes of the meeting.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I call Dr. Una May on behalf of Sport Ireland. The floor is hers and she has five minutes.
Dr. Una May:
I thank the Chairperson and committee members for the invitation to attend this session to discuss our role in the monitoring of the Memorandum of Understanding, MOU, in place between the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media and the Football Association of Ireland. I am joined today by Mr. Colm McGinty, director of strategy and governance and Mr. Jason McLoughlin, director of finance in Sport Ireland.
Sport Ireland is the statutory authority tasked with the development of sport in Ireland. Our main functions are to increase participation in sport, support Ireland’s high-performance athletes, operate Ireland’s anti-doping programme, deliver coaching training, and develop the Sport Ireland Campus in Blanchardstown. In January 2020, Sport Ireland was tasked with an oversight and monitoring role on an MOU agreed between the Government and the FAI in respect of restoration of funding and the provision of additional funding support to the FAI for the period 2020 to 2023. Sport Ireland is not a signatory to the MOU. The MOU sets out the terms upon which funding support is provided to the FAI and encompasses requirements for the FAI to meet and implement in respect of more than 160 recommendations.
A governance oversight group was established in May 2020 to oversee FAI progress on implementation of governance reforms over the lifetime of the MOU. Since the MOU was agreed, the FAI has made good progress on implementing the various governance reforms and more than €60 million has been issued in public funding to the FAI by Sport Ireland. MOU condition 35 requires the remuneration of the FAI CEO to be in line with Government pay guidelines for the grade of Secretary General. In early 2022, Sport Ireland raised queries with the FAI on aspects of the CEO's remuneration. An MOU compliance audit carried out later in 2022 in respect of the 2021 financial year concluded that condition 35 was not embedded in the FAI. In its response to the audit finding for 2021, the FAI highlighted that there were unique and mitigating circumstances in 2021 surrounding the Covid-19 pandemic. In May 2023, Sport Ireland commissioned a follow-up audit by independent auditors, KOSI, to assess whether the FAI had implemented this condition in the 2022 financial year. The audit found that the FAI had not adhered to MOU condition 35 in 2022. Sport Ireland is disappointed at the findings of the audit and the payments made to the FAI CEO that were in breach of this condition. This issue has cast a shadow on the good work done over recent years.
Since the audit, Sport Ireland has engaged with the FAI on the corrective actions taken by the organisation in response to the audit findings. This entire process gave rise to a delay in the release of funding to the FAI in 2023.
However, funding to the FAI was resumed on 1 December 2023 following agreement from the Minister and the Minister of State to do so, on the basis that the corrective actions have been satisfactorily addressed by the FAI. Sport Ireland notes and welcomes the recent statement from the FAI board expressing its regret at what happened.
Another of the MOU conditions, No. 14, required the FAI to commit to the target of 40% female membership of the FAI board. We welcome the result of the EGM last Saturday at which the FAI’s general assembly voted for a proposed constitutional change to allow two additional female candidates to join the FAI board, thus allowing for the FAI to meet the gender balance requirements. Work continues on monitoring the FAI’s adherence to the conditions of the MOU. Sport Ireland has been asked to prepare a report for the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media and the Minister of State with responsibility for sport and physical education by year-end on the overall implementation of actions set out under the three-year MOU.
For the benefit of football in Ireland, everyone can agree that it is important for the FAI to implement and sustain best governance practices which enable it to lead and support vital grassroots work and the development of the game at all levels. Sport Ireland looks forward to working with the FAI’s new chairperson, Tony Keohane, the new president, Paul Cooke, and the renewed FAI board, in the continuation of the journey of reform of the FAI.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I call Mr. Cian Ó Lionáin to make the opening statement on behalf of the Department.
Mr. Cian ? Lion?in:
Go raibh maith agat a Chathaoirligh, agus míle buíochas as ucht an gcuireadh agus fáiltím an deis aghaidh a thabhairt faoin ábhar tábhachtach seo. I assure the committee that the Department and our Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, and Minister of State, Deputy Thomas Byrne, recognise the importance of investment in football as one of the key participation sports in Ireland.
Regarding the FAI’s facility investment vision and strategy, while the level of capital funding sought from the Exchequer is very ambitious in the context of current funding levels, the Department is strongly committed to sustained investment in the necessary facilities for all sports. Indeed, we look forward to engaging with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform in the coming period in the context of a review of the national development plan regarding the longer term capital funding needs of the wider sports ecosystem. The FAI’s strategy is certainly a useful input to that wider consideration.
The strategy outlines a proposed total investment of €863 million, of which €517 million will come from central government, with €173 million proposed to come from local government, educational bodies and local health authorities. Over the 15 years of the strategy, this works out at €46 million in total government support each year. It should be noted that the central government ask alone, of just over €34 million, equates almost exactly to the entirety of the annual sports capital and equipment programme, SCEP, budget, which is currently €34.535 million.
The sports capital and equipment programme is the primary vehicle for Government support for the development of sports and recreation facilities and the purchase of non-personal sports equipment throughout the country. The final allocations under the 2020 round were announced last year and the total allocation of €166.6 million represented the highest level of allocations ever made under the programme.
It is heartening to note strong engagement by the FAI in encouraging its clubs to apply for SCEP funding. Soccer projects alone received over €20 million under the 2020 round, compared with €6.6 million under the previous 2017 round. In terms of the amount allocated versus the amount applied for, that percentage grew from 28% in 2017 to 81% in 2020. The latest round of the SCEP - the 2023 round - closed for applications on Friday, 8 September. A preliminary examination of the submitted applications shows that the programme has again generated a large number of applications and that the total number will exceed the previous record of 3,106 applications submitted. We are now working on finalising the scoring system and assessment manual and it is hoped we will be able to announce the equipment-only grants in early 2024. Work will then commence on announcing the capital applications later in 2024.
Based on a preliminary comparison of applications submitted in 2023 and 2020, it is clear that soccer applications for SCEP are continuing to trend upwards across several areas, as we note an 11% increase in the number of applications from soccer clubs and a 116% increase in the overall amount sought. Soccer now accounts for nearly one fifth of the total amount sought across all applications.
The Department also administers the large-scale sport infrastructure fund, LSSIF, which aims to support larger sports facilities where the Exchequer investment sought is greater than the maximum amount available under the SCEP. The first allocations under the LSSIF were announced in January 2020. The Minister and Minister of State were able to announce additional allocations only last week. Under the first round of funding, soccer facilities that have benefited include the Dalymount Park redevelopment, the Finn Harps–Donegal Community Stadium and the Munster Centre of Excellence. In the additional allocations announced recently, the FAI received an additional allocation of nearly €700,000 for the Finn Harps project, giving a total grant of €4,684,559 for the project. Regarding a possible new round of the LSSIF, the Minister and Minister of State have announced that a new round will open for applications in the first half of 2024.
Turning briefly to MOU No. 35 and the CEO's salary, the MOU between the Government and the FAI stipulates, inter alia, that the remuneration of the CEO will be in line with Government pay guidelines, that is, no greater than the remuneration of officers in the grade of Secretary General. KOSI’s audit report, commissioned by Sport Ireland, was received in the Department on 5 October 2023 and was subsequently reviewed and considered. Following detailed consideration, the Department replied to Sport Ireland, noting its agreement with the findings of the audit and outlining our expectation that the FAI would fully implement the audit findings. On foot of a briefing to him by Sport Ireland, the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, asked Sport Ireland to seek additional information from the FAI to have full assurance in this regard. This was received in the Department on 20 November. As outlined, on that basis, the Department informed Sport Ireland on 30 November that it could release the 2022 and 2023 funding to the FAI.
In relation to other commitments under the MOU, the Department again echoes what Sport Ireland has said about the positive progress the FAI made on reaching the 40% gender target at its recent AGM. The Minister and the Minister of State have asked Sport Ireland to prepare a full report on the FAI's compliance for the period for publication in the coming period.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Ó Lionáin very much. I am sure there will be lots of questions on the comprehensive statements all the organisations have made. I thank them for this. It is a good start to our meeting. My colleagues have been circulated with a speaking rota, so they know where their slot is. They all have ten minutes. I call Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach and all the witnesses for attending. I am going to waste the first minute of my ten minutes by being a fan. I have to acknowledge the presence of Packie Bonner, a living legend. I was only eight years old when Packie provided me with what is still my greatest sporting memory as a fan during the penalty shoot-out against Romania in the 1990 World Cup. I think it is a sad reflection that this is still my greatest memory as a fan, but it is a fact. It is an honour to have him here today. Those were amazing times.
We will crack on with the questions. There are some incredibly important issues to discuss, including the issue of gender balance and the gender make-up of boards. It is important that this is resolved and I understand steps have been taken to do this. That is greatly important.
I will focus on the governance issues within the FAI. I appreciate that in his opening statement Mr. Hill acknowledged that what happened in terms of the holiday payment in lieu was wrong. He has apologised and I understand he has returned that payment. That is laudable.
Having read the opening statements and assessed the situation that has transpired, I have many doubts about whether Mr. Hill was aware, during the time he was receiving these holiday payments, that they were being paid and also that it was wrong. That is something we have to establish. When did Mr. Hill became aware of these payments in lieu of holidays?
Mr. Jonathan Hill:
The payments were made in March, so that is when I would have been aware that they were going to be paid by the association. The conversation in relation to the payments started at the back end of the year before when we were talking in relation to a colleague and requests made concerning that person in terms of pay in lieu of holidays not taken because of exceptional circumstances in relation to her.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Hill was aware of these payments going into his account as early as March.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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At that time, Mr. Hill had read the staff handbook.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Hill at that point was aware that it had almost never happened that payments would be made in lieu to the staff of the FAI, and that the practice was that those days would be carried over.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Another staff member.
Mr. Jonathan Hill:
----another staff member, for whom pay in lieu of holidays was made because of extraordinary circumstances. As part of that, a conversation then ensued between the finance director, the director of people and culture and the then chairman, Roy Barrett, regarding the possibility of the same being granted to me on the basis that I had 12 days' holiday to take.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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In which area was this staff member who was previously paid for holidays in lieu?
In which office was he or she based?
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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I am not trying to identify the person.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Was the person working in Mr. Hill's office or Mr. Barrett's office? In which area was he or she working?
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. When Mr. Hill became aware of these payments in lieu, did he say to himself, "If this staff member is getting it, I would like a piece of that", even though it was not common practice and did not happen and the usual procedure was to carry forward the days in lieu?
Mr. Jonathan Hill:
No, that was not the conversation. The then finance director, the other executives to whom I referred and the chair, Mr. Barrett, had the conversation regarding my situation and the fact I had days outstanding. I never contemplated the possibility of asking for cash in respect of holiday payments but it came up as part of that conversation regarding the other employee involved. The conversation ensued between the three of them. I did not push it and I was not asking for it.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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It is astonishing. Mr. Hill has been aware of this since March. That is several months ago. He must have been aware it was not in compliance with the staff handbook, with which I assume he is familiar. He must have been aware it raises issues. This harks back to a previous session the committee had regarding payments that should not have been made to certain personnel. Mr. Hill was aware of memorandum of understanding No. 35, which states he cannot be paid at a level above that of a Secretary General. Did he see this as a way of getting past that?
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Hill knew this payment in lieu would take him over that level, however.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Hill knew how much he was getting paid and that the payment in lieu would have brought him approximately €20,000 over what he should have received in terms of the remuneration for a Secretary General.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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When did KOSI come in?
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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What was Mr. Hill's understanding of why KOSI was there?
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Hill knew KOSI was in.
Mr. Jonathan Hill:
KOSI looked at approximately 60 recommendations that, as it described it, were not embedded in the context of the 163 recommendations. It was normal for KOSI to come in and look at the various recommendations. I was aware a conversation was happening in respect of MOU 35 but I was not aware of the detail of the conversation. As I stated, I was not part of that process. It was three other executives, the chair and the chair of the executive performance and remuneration committee, EPRCO.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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As I am running out of time, I will move on. It is astonishing that Mr. Hill has been aware of this payment in lieu since March but did not think to consult the handbook, despite the fact it had only been done for one staff member previously, that this was appropriate-----
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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I am running out of time. The fact that KOSI was in, but Mr. Hill, as CEO of the FAI, was not sure why it was in is astonishing.
I will briefly move to Ms Joyce. When was the idea of this holiday pay in lieu first brought to her attention?
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Who made that inquiry?
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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What was Ms Joyce's opinion on the matter? What was her reaction to the inquiry?
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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When did she become aware the practice was happening?
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Did it come as a surprise to Ms Joyce that the payment had been made, given that it had been brought to her attention in December?
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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When it was first brought to her attention, why did she not bring it to the remuneration committee?
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Ms Joyce did not believe it was appropriate to tell the remuneration committee this idea had been brought to her attention and ask its opinion on it.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Does Ms Joyce think she ought to have done so?
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. I will move to Mr. Barrett. He is clearly a key figure in all this, as outlined by Ms Joyce. He was the first person to bring it to Ms Joyce's attention. Considering that this had not been done before, other than possibly for one other staff member, and it did not comply with the staff handbook, why did he come up with this idea? Was it a discussion between him and Mr. Hill to try to milk a bit more out of it and try to get it over the amount allowed under memorandum of understanding No. 35?
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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There was no discussion between Mr. Barrett and Mr. Hill regarding this arrangement.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Barrett had a light-bulb moment and decided to do this.
Mr. Roy Barrett:
That is not the case. The relevant executive came to me with a proposal outlining there were exceptional circumstances in this situation relating to Mr. Hill. There were truly exceptional circumstances in terms of his inability to take holidays during 2022. That is the first point. Second-----
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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This had never arisen before.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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How many staff are within the FAI?
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Only one other of those 240-odd staff had ever looked for holiday pay in lieu.
Mr. Roy Barrett:
To my knowledge, yes, or had been granted it. When it came to me at the end of February, given all the circumstances, I thought there were exceptional circumstances and I accepted the recommendation. In terms of accepting the recommendation, the board and I have been very aware of all the requirements under the MOU, all 163 of them. As regards MOU 35, my view was that it states the remuneration for the CEO needs to be equivalent-----
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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I am out of time. I appreciate that Mr. Barrett wishes to expand on his answer. I am sure very few observers looking on will believe there was a lack of knowledge from Mr. Hill in respect of this arrangement. Very few of them will believe there was not some effort to increase pay. It harks back to the old days. Mr. Hill said it himself in his statement. It harks back to the old days that we tried to get away from. Mr. Barrett was brought in as an independent chair. The whole idea is that we would move away from these types of payments and sweet deals. Unfortunately, it is another hammer blow to the FAI. The answers that have been given today are not adequate.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy. We need to move on. I call Deputy Dillon.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I welcome our guests.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I ask the witnesses to be brief. I know there is explaining to do but I ask them to be brief in their answers in order to allow members enough time to ask their questions.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach. Members would far prefer to be discussing the continued growth and development of the grass roots and the needs that exist in the context of FAI funding. I recall the excitement in Mayo at the launch of Mayo FC and its entry into the League of Ireland academy, with men's under-14 and under-15 and women's under-17 league teams. There is a need for such organisations to be supported but the committee would be accused of failing in its duties if we did not ask questions in respect of the substantive issues that have come to pass in the context of poor governance. In that light, I ask Mr. Hill to outline the exact salary for his position in 2020, 2021, 2022 and 2023.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Will Mr. Hill provide a breakdown of the overpayments for each case in terms of the annual salary? We are aware that the 2022 overpayment was in the region €20,000. Were there any other years where overpayments were discovered?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In no other year, other than in 2022, where payments were made in lieu of annual leave not taken or backdated pay increases. Is that correct?
Mr. Jonathan Hill:
In the interaction with KOSI the two parties worked out where there had been a mismatch in terms of when the Secretary General salary had changed and that had not followed in relation to my salary. So there had been, as part of the wider conversation, regarding 2022, a reset in relation to back pay in the sense of pay that had been owed to me. That was part of the wider discussion in relation to getting to a point whereby, across both 2022 and 2023, collectively, my salary would be less than that of a Secretary General.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Why did the FAI not comply with condition No. 35 of the memorandum of understanding in 2021 and 2022?
Mr. Jonathan Hill:
I think this was at the heart of the conversation in relation to KOSI. First, there was a discussion between the two parties on what the calculation for BIK and travel and accommodation should be in 2022 but that, plus the payment that had been made for holiday in lieu, took my salary over that of a Secretary General.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Was Mr. Hill concerned about that?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I mean Mr. Hill's salary was now in breach of-----
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Hill has been a relatively short period in the FAI and is at the centre of this controversy now. Does he think it is credible for him to continue to defend the organisation's performance in the area of governance?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I did not ask Mr. Hill about that.
Mr. Jonathan Hill:
In terms of the part that I have played, in the creation of a very clear strategic plan, in the delivery of that strategic plan and in the creation of a new senior leadership team that would help me in the delivery of that strategic plan, against the 163 recommendations and those objectives within the strategy, I genuinely believe we have made good progress. I am pleased with the progress we have made. I am committed to the process of continuing that progress moving forward because I think we have a real opportunity to progress in 2024 and beyond.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Was Mr. Hill selective about the recommendations that he would implement first? I ask because condition No. 35, under the MoU, was not properly implemented. Was that a delay tactic on his part?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I mean subsequently. Condition No. 35 is related to Mr. Hill's pay.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Hill, the finance director and Mr. Roy Barrett had a conversation, as Mr. Hill said earlier to Deputy O'Sullivan. Was it a very casual or formal conversation? Was the conversation minuted?
Mr. Jonathan Hill:
No, it was an email interchange. There was also the director of people and culture, so previously the HR director, who was involved in the conversation and the discussion about the other employee. That is where the issue of exceptional circumstances regarding my 12 days and not taking a holiday in 2022 ensued.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is this how the FAI operates? In terms of breaching its handbook, would the FAI have a conversation and look at an opportunity for Mr. Hill to get paid additional money through exceptional circumstances?
Mr. Jonathan Hill:
As I think I said earlier, it was related to exceptional circumstances and clearly very much aware of the handbook. On the way in which we operate, there is a huge amount happening in terms of the day-to-day operation of a football association. It is not just the 163 recommendations but our day-to-day business across our core areas. I would like to think we operate the business in a modern and professional style.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Did Mr. Hill request that this payment would be met?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Was it Mr. Hill who went to Mr. Roy Barrett in terms of the other employee who actually was offered this?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Ms Joyce has responsibility, as chair of the remuneration committee and was aware of this matter in December 2022. Did Ms Joyce feel that it was appropriate for an organisation like the FAI to engage in such an activity?
Ms Liz Joyce:
The inquiry was raised with me. I responded to say that I did not think it was good practice or recommend it. I assumed that was the end of the matter because I heard nothing further about it. Obviously, in general terms, HR may be approached from time to time within the organisation for exceptional circumstances. I recognise this happens from time to time. In relation to this particular issue, I gave an opinion and assumed the matter was closed at that point in time.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Did Ms Joyce pass on this information to the HR director?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What happened subsequently to that?
Ms Liz Joyce:
I do not know in the sense that I had no further communication in relation to the matter. I assumed the matter was closed until I became aware of the outcome of the KOSI report.
The breaches that took place were unintentional. I would like to reassure the committee that at all times the salary that was paid to the CEO was in line with that of a Secretary General. This issue obviously was an issue that created one of the unintentional breaches. As soon as the committee and the board were informed about it, and the solutions that were required to fix the problem, it was immediately addressed.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is Mr. Barrett a member of the remuneration committee?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Who is? Is Mr. Hill a member of the remuneration committee?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I have a question about the description that Mr. Hill was gifted this money. Does Ms Joyce think that he was gifted this money?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The board agreed to convert relocation expenses for travel and accommodation. Can Mr. Barrett tell me whether that was approved by Sport Ireland?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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On the board's agreement to convert Mr. Hill's relocation expenses, was that agreed prior with Sport Ireland in relation to Mr. Hill's travel and accommodation?
Ms Liz Joyce:
I did not have conversations with Sport Ireland. What I am aware of is that a proposal was made to the EPRCO. At the time there was a set of mitigating circumstances in 2021.
As members will all recall, Covid was rife at that point. There was an issue whereby the CEO, could not, as intended, move over. There were travel expenses that arose during that time. Towards the end of the year, we became aware that they were eligible for BIK. On recommendation, we then took a decision to use the budget that was allocated for relocation expenses to cover that, on the strict understanding that any future expenses that were covered by the organisation that were personal would be subject to BIK by the individual involved - in this case, the CEO.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is Mr Hill's place of work officially his London residence or Abbotstown?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Could Ms Joyce just explain the reference to HM Revenue and Customs in the cost report and what was involved in this?
Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the various witnesses for their presentations. It is important not to forget that many good people work in the FAI and that a lot of good work is being done. As a League of Ireland fan, I know that the league has really prospered in recent years. It has been really positive. The development of women's football has been very strong. That is down to the work of the FAI.
The FAI's Facility Investment Vision and Strategy for Irish Football is a very strong and positive document. It highlights the chronic underspending in Irish football that has gone on for decades. I am a strong believer in multisport facilities. Such facilities have been shown to be very cost-effective. In the context of the strategy, what contacts has the FAI had with other sporting NGBs to explore co-operation on multisport facilities and shared facilities, or is it that the FAI is just going to just keep these facilities solely for football? I imagine that if the facilities are shared, it would reduce the cost of the strategy. Has the FAI examined that?
Collective bargaining has a very good track record of ensuring fair negotiation. In the context of negotiated contracts involving between employers and staff, the public sector has benefited from collective negotiation. Mr. Hill's salary is based on public sector guidelines, so in effect he and the public sector have benefited from the work of trade unions. Is it not fair and just to engage in collective bargaining with SIPTU? Why is Mr. Hill refusing to engage in collective bargaining with SIPTU? It would be great if he could just answer those two questions first.
Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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Has the FAI engaged with other NGBs?
Mr. Jonathan Hill:
We have engaged with other NGBs, for example, basketball, to talk about ways in which we can create community-led facilities for the grassroots in particular whereby other sports can be integrated into the planning for the building of those facilities. That is a really sensible way to do it. We are very happy also to work with the other two major sports. It is slightly more difficult in the context of rugby and the GAA due to the size of the facilities, pitches, etc., but for younger kids and how they play, if more 4G pitches, both indoor and outdoor, were provided, they could be used by all sports.
Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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Has that changed the strategy in any way?
Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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It does not seem to be covered very much in the strategy.
Mr. Jonathan Hill:
The strategy is a multisport and community-led model. It was stated earlier that we would like to bring health facilities into community-led municipal facilities and to interact with education and try to bring in education facilities. It is not just other sports; it is other sectors as well, which is absolutely the way forward, particularly in the grassroots space.
Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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On the issue of collective bargaining and the refusal to engage with SIPTU, some staff feel that they should, like Mr. Hill, be linked to grades within the public sector.
Mr. Jonathan Hill:
As Mr. Barrett mentioned earlier, we have 240 staff within the FAI. We have an open-door policy with all of them. We have worked really hard on establishing a staff culture working group. In a general sense, we think we have a very good relationship with the staff. Even though there is no official collective bargaining agreement in place between the FAI and those SIPTU members that we know are within the FAI, they have made themselves known to us and we do have a good working relationship with them. We had four meetings across 2022 and three in 2023. I have met with the representatives of SIPTU three times across that period, and that was-----
Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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What is the block to collective bargaining?
Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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Surely they would not be looking for collective bargaining if that relationship was good. It is clear that members of staff feel they need to be represented by a union. It is unfair to block somebody from having collective bargaining and SIPTU recognition.
Mr. Jonathan Hill:
I point to the benchmarking process on which we spent a huge amount of time in the early part of my tenure as CEO. We spoke to all of the different cohorts within the staff. At the end of that process, the average increase in pay for all of the staff was 12%. That was managed that across all 240 of the staff, not just a small cohort. We continue to talk to representatives of SIPTU. On the back of the current situation we understand that they are keen to meet with us. Our director of people and culture, Aoife Rafferty, is already looking to plan that meeting.
Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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I just think it is very unreasonable for many of the staff to be linked with a public sector pay grade and yet some are refused that.
Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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It is shameful of the board to have that view.
I will move on to Mr. Barrett. He signed the MOU in 2020, so he is obviously very familiar with it. He was aware of the details in terms of payments and guidelines in the FAI handbook. I presume that is pretty much the case.
Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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Ms Joyce has stated that it was not good practice, yet Mr. Barrett felt it was. I find it really concerning that he cannot see what he did was wrong, after the KOSI audit and the review found that was the case. It breached guidelines and it was wrong. I saw him say on Saturday that he believed it was the right thing to do. I find it hard to understand that Mr. Barrett could still believe that it was the right thing to do. He still holds that view despite all the evidence and the outrage of ordinary football fans. If he does not mind me saying so, it is like a throwback to the John Delaney era.
I would point to the arrogance, the assumption that Mr. Barrett knows better than everyone else and his making of executive decisions. He was advised that it was not good practice, yet he has continued with it to this day. It is worrying that the FAI would have that culture at the top level.
Mr. Roy Barrett:
What I said on Saturday was that I took full responsibility for the decision I made and that I was accountable for it. Good governance is all about accountability and responsibility. If people believe I made the wrong decision, that is fine, but I made it in good faith for the right reasons.
Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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Would Mr. Barrett make the same decision again? Even the fact that he is hesitating now is worrying.
Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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After it became known that there had been a breach of the memorandum-----
Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Barrett says he was not trying to hide anything, yet he did not engage with any of the board members on the matter. Or did he?
Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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That does not look like someone who was trying to be open and transparent.
Mr. Roy Barrett:
Sorry, I was not trying not to be open and transparent. A recommendation came to me, which I believed I had the authority to make the decision on in the context of other people having been engaged in that conversation. If someone is telling me that I was trying to conceal something from the board or anyone else, that is just factually incorrect. I would not do that.
Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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It appears like that.
Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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Why did Mr. Barrett not consult the board? At the weekend, I saw reports that he believed there would be leaks to the media and that that was why he had not engaged with other members of the board.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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We have to conclude there, Deputy Andrews.
Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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Very finally-----
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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In three seconds.
Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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I honestly believe that, in light of everything that has happened and the way Mr. Barrett behaved on the board, Sport Ireland or the Minister needs to intervene and bring about a review of all the decisions he has made over the past three years.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I welcome all of our witnesses and thank them for being with us.
My first question is for Mr. Barrett. Over the past three years, how often has the audit and compliance committee met?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Are there minutes from all of those meetings that could be provided to the committee?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Could they be provided to the committee? Would that be fair?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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At any of those meetings, did any of these anomalies arise prior to the KOSI audit? Was anything ever picked up internally?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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None of the 2021 anomalies was ever picked up.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Was a decision made on whether to escalate them at that stage?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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The FAI might confirm that to us in writing, if that is okay with the Chair.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Does the audit and risk committee examine even a sample of district league finances and accounts?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Does any branch of the organisation examine in any way what is happening at grassroots level and the governance of the individual district leagues?
Mr. Ger McDermott:
I will try to be brief. We are a company limited by guarantee, but we are also a members organisation. We are made up of 37 different members, which are effectively affiliates in terms of the organised game. Outside of the school system, the five key bodies affiliated to us are the four provincial associations looking after the youth and adult amateur game and the Schoolboys/girls Football Association of Ireland, which looks after football up to under-16s. They have their own governance frameworks and statuses to which they work. The leagues affiliate into one of those bodies, depending on who they are providing football for. Under our current constitution and governance structures, we have a role in mediating and facilitating discussion where we can, but they have their own frameworks and a level of autonomy within those.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I was around in 2019 and 2020 when much of this stuff was trying to be straightened out. It was a stressful time. One of the things that the people of the country, including those participating in the sport, were told at the time was that there would be reform from the top right down to grassroots level. This committee asked for the details of what reforms had taken place. I do not believe we have received those details in respect of, for example, the district league level. Is there a reason we have not received them?
Mr. Ger McDermott:
I will make a couple of points on that. The reform journey that we are on started internally with our own governance structures, processes, the implementation of various committees and their work. Since 2018 into 2019, we have taken a bottom-up approach in implementing our club mark programme, which is the accreditation for governance and administration of clubs.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry to cut across Mr. McDermott, but time is limited. Would it have been too much for the FAI to provide us with a detailed breakdown of the district leagues and the changes in personnel or otherwise that had taken place since 2020? I do not believe that was too great of a request from the committee.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Some of the concerns being expressed to me by people participating in the game and supporters relate to how they have not seen the reform at grassroots level. There has been a large change in personnel higher up the ladder, but not at grassroots level. This is of significant concern to many. However, that is anecdotal and I would like to have the facts on paper. It is not too much for this committee to ask to get that information.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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We asked for this information previously. That request stands and we will come looking for it again. It is important that we get it when we ask. We do not ask lightly; we ask for a reason.
We made another request but did not receive the relevant details. I thank Mr. Ó Lionáin for providing an overview from the Department’s point of view. The FAI has outlined a considerable capital request for the future, but we were looking for details on what efforts had been made to avail of the current round of the sports capital and equipment programme. Historically, FAI-affiliated clubs have been poor at applying, which is reflected in their outcomes versus those of other organisations. One cannot grant what is not applied for. We asked for those details prior to this meeting but did not receive them. Is there a reason for that? Can anyone tell me why we did not receive them? Perhaps the CEO will be able to explain.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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The most recent round. The one that just closed in September.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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With those figures, we have to take into account that only 75% of valid clubs were granted funding last time compared with 100% more recently. There was also a Covid budget that did not exist in 2019, so we are not comparing like with like.
In terms of the capital ask for the future, is it not at the heart of the matter that the FAI does not know precisely who is asking for what? The FAI seeks special treatment in the form of special capital funding but it is not on top of the established avenues. In terms of the Oireachtas and Departments taking the FAI seriously when it comes looking for a huge capital ask, if it is not availing of current avenues then it does not strike me that the FAI is taking things that seriously if it is not on top of exactly who applies for what in each league. Is that not part of the problem?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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The FAI is unable to provide the details to me here.
Mr. David Courell:
I can assure the Deputy that we do not have the details. The way the system works, the applications are made directly to the Department. They consolidate those applications. We have played our role in galvanising the volunteers on the ground to bring as many applications forward and that has been demonstrated by the growth of 281% between the 2018 award and the 2020 award and, as Mr. Ó Lionáin alluded to earlier, it has kicked on from there. We are confident that our activities to educate and assist our clubs in bringing those applications forward have borne and will bear fruit. We simply just do not have the visibility of the roll-up.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Is there no mechanism in place for the FAI to receive confirmation from clubs when they have applied and for what they have applied?
Mr. David Courell:
The phrase the Deputy used was that we are not on top of it. We have invested a huge amount of energy in 2022 and 2023 trying to establish the actual need. That is what the entirety of this document is based on. We carried out an extensive consultation and survey with our grassroot clubs. We had a 91% response rate, which is a staggering response rate by all accounts. That shows the scale of engagement that we have been able to achieve. Therefore, we have a grasp on the actual ask and need.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Courell.
Can Mr. Barrett tell me why he resigned when he did?
Mr. Roy Barrett:
I gave my intention to resign in January of this year, for a number of reasons. First, I wanted to ensure that the gender balance was achieved and my stepping aside enabled somebody to step into those shoes. I have my own personal reasons. I also believe that in any organisation, there needs to be a refreshment of the board, and new people with new voices and new ideas should come forward. I had given three to four years to the role and I felt that change is good in any organisation.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Was the decision for Mr. Barrett, as chair, to step aside based on facilitating a target ?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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What were the other reasons in terms of the day-to-day running of the organisation?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Was there any particular problem that Mr. Barrett felt was the ultimate catalyst for him to resign?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Was it related to this issue?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Was it related to the payments issue?
Mr. Roy Barrett:
No, sorry. It had nothing to do with this issue because I made a decision in January of this year, which is nearly 12 months ago. My decision was solely to do with the fact that I fundamentally believe that in any organisation there should be change. I believe in the case of the FAI, since we have been involved in it, there has been massive change, massive improvement, that it is going in the right direction and that now, different people with different voices and thoughts can bring it forward. It is as simple as that.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Barrett accept that public confidence in the FAI has been further eroded as a result of the things that have transpired, his role in that and in terms of the future asks of Government for funding? Has confidence in the FAI been rocked?
Mr. Roy Barrett:
I do not know if confidence has been rocked but it certainly may be dented. However, whatever about this issue, and we have apologised for it and I will apologise for my role in it, but the facts remain that over the last four years, and since we signed the MOU, there has been substantial improvement in every aspect of the organisation. The organisation is in a much better place from a management perspective, staffing perspective and a culture perspective. I believe that the progress that has been made, in a large part, is down to what I perceive to be the excellent efforts of the management and staff. That is what I feel.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Can I ask members of the remuneration committee how many times did it meet per annum from 2020 to 2023?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I ask Dr. May how many national governing bodies are in Sport Ireland?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Dr. May has a busy role and I presume that the FAI has taken up a lot of her time of late, which is not good for other sports. It must be acknowledged that all of this has a displacement effect all along the line.
From the point of view of Sport Ireland, what is the plan for future audits? Is there any particular area of concern that needs to be examined further within the FAI?
Dr. Una May:
I will take the opportunity to reiterate what has been said before. There has been phenomenal progress made by the FAI. We have monitored this very closely and to an extreme level of detail. There has been very vigorous monitoring and oversight. There are a number of outstanding items from the MOU and 163 recommendations are a lot to achieve in the space of three years. We do anticipate - the Minister has already mooted the possibility - that he might consider a future MOU. We will work very closely with the Department and the Ministers in identifying what areas need to be continued. We have seen the progress and we would like to continue to support the FAI to continue on in its journey of growth, development and the improvements it has made in its governance. We want to support them in that so we do see a role for a future monitoring of this.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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On the re-opening of the large-scale sporting infrastructure fund for new applications in 2024, what work has the FAI done to date on deciding its priorities for the fund?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Has the FAI identified its priorities already? As there are not that many large-scale projects, the number will be relatively small.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Would Mr. Hill say that the FAI's preparation is advanced at this stage in terms of making valid applications in 2024?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Have the FAI finalised a priority list at this stage?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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We must move on and I can assure the Deputy that there will be a second round. I call Deputy Munster.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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First, it is extremely disappointing to hear of the latest fiasco around the CEO's pay given all that we had all gone through with governance in the FAI. The grassroots have been badly let down and I am disappointed to see more of the same attitude today.
Mr. Barrett was appointed the independent chairperson and the thinking behind his appointment was to have a white knight. Given all that we had seen in respect of governance issues in the FAI, the view was that it was better to appoint a person who was not involved, had no skin in the game, was going to be here and the person would be tasked with oversight, management and ensuring adherence to good governance. Is it not ironic that Mr. Barrett did not see, until the issue came into the public domain, what he was doing regarding payments in lieu of holiday pay? One might say it was exceptional circumstances because there was one case of it before but it was Mr. Barrett who actually saw that through and allowed it to happen. Also, as the independent chair tasked with ensuring good governance, Mr. Barrett did not see fit to tell the board members.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Hold on. Mr. Barrett has said that several times and I am starting to choke on it each time he says it. He talks about good governance. He knew this payment was not the norm.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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He knew it would have exceeded condition No. 35.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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He knew that, as a result, it could well exceed condition No. 35 on the pay.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. We will take that as Mr. Barrett said it. Mr. Barrett knew that what he was doing was not the norm and he made a deliberate decision not to inform the board.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Why did he not inform the board? Why did he ask the question of his colleague in the December before that and never revert to her to say “Actually, we are going through this process.” Why would he not do that?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Did Mr. Barrett think it was not in the interest of the board to know?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Communicated by whom if not by Mr. Barrett himself, as the independent chair? Who would have communicated? What would be the procedure? Mr. Barrett decided to make a decision citing exceptional circumstances to make this payment and he took that decision himself. Following that, he then took a decision not to inform members of the board.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Barrett did not inform members of the board. Am I correct in saying that? He did not inform them?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Why did Mr. Barrett not do so? Apart from the fact that he thought this was grand and there was no need to worry, why would he not relay that information to his colleagues? Why would he not say “Listen, in this case, there are exceptional circumstances. That is why I am doing this. That is why, in lieu of holidays, I am going to pay, so, as members of the board, to offer you respect in relation to your positions, I am informing you that this is what I am going to do”? Why did he decide not to do that?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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By whom?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Did you ever hear such rubbish as “By the executives involved to the relevant committee”? Mr. Barrett is the independent chair. Why did he not do that? He made the decision.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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He did not tell anybody, nonetheless.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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When Mr. Barrett said “the executives”, was he saying that it was the finance officer or finance director at the time who first broached this matter with him?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Who was that? Was it somebody on the board?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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On the board.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Were they separate from the board altogether? They held no position.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Barrett thought someone with no position on the board would go and tell the board, and that this exempted him, as independent chair, from telling the board.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I have a question for Ms Joyce. Was it Mr. Barrett who came to her first with the inquiry in December?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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So Mr. Barrett went to Ms Joyce with the initial query but he did not see fit, as a member of the remuneration committee, to go back and tell her that he was actually going along those lines, and that that is exactly what he was going to do. He went to her for the information first and she said it was not good practice and was bad practice. Is that why Mr. Barrett did not go back and tell her then – because she felt it was not good practice?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Why would Mr. Barrett go to her for the information and then not have the courtesy to go back to her and say “Actually, I am going to go ahead with that, whether you think it is good practice or not”?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Was Mr. Barrett keeping it hidden?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Why would Mr. Barrett not tell her then?
Mr. Roy Barrett:
When it came to me a month or so later, independently, part of it was advice and, in fairness to Ms Joyce, it was not necessarily best practice. However, to the extent that the executive could make a case to me for my approval, then that is what it should do. Six, seven or eight weeks later, it came back to me and asked my view. We discussed that view and I gave my approval. I should either have proactively spoken to Ms Joyce or just assumed that the necessary executive would go back to Ms Joyce and say that this is what the outcome of that discussion is.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I have a question for Ms Joyce. Would it be the normal practice that an executive would go back and give Ms Joyce that sort of exceptional circumstances information, or would she have expected it to come from the chair of the board?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The independent chair did not follow procedures.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Ms Joyce just said that. We want clarity and transparency if the FAI is going to claw back and regain the trust of people.
Ms Liz Joyce:
I think it is very clear that when decisions like these are made, they should come through the EPRC, where there is an opportunity for constructive challenge and to understand the consequences of any decision. In general, that is what has happened. In this particular instance, it did not happen, for a variety of reasons.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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For obvious reasons.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I would have said it did not come back for obvious reasons.
Sport Ireland previously mentioned that 10% of the MoU recommendations are outstanding. We had it the last time with the FAI, John Delaney and all of that fiasco. I am looking for the opinion of Sport Ireland. I am not overly confident, however, having listened to what has been said today and the type of flippant responses from several people since the start of the meeting. Of those ten recommendations that have not been implemented, and this one, condition No. 35, was way down the list of recommendations to be implemented, we would imagine they would have been getting their t's crossed and i’s dotted after the financial saga the last time, but this was put on the long finger. How concerned is Sport Ireland at this stage? I know it said the FAI has put a lot of things into practice. I just do not get the vibe that many lessons have been learned. I hate to use that phrase but I do not think many lessons have been learned in regard to transparency and openness. Of the remaining ten, are there any that Sport Ireland would have serious concerns about? Does it have concerns about what it witnessed today, given the reluctance to give information, the hedging and dodging and the “I did not know” answers?
Dr. Una May:
I will keep it brief in regard to the 163 recommendations. We believe that 97% are now complete so we reiterate that there has been ongoing progress, even since the original 10% that the Deputy refers to. While I am not sure what date that was, this has been ongoing and we will continue to monitor it. The organisation has come from a very low base to what we believe to be quite a solid base. We have ongoing questions that we will need to continue to monitor, and we intend to do so.
We will report to the Minister with a full overview on the MOU. In that, we will give a very clear indication of all the steps and recommendations within the MOU. These have involved everything from the starting point of appointing a company secretary and constitutional reforms to risk management, independent directors and the establishment of an audit and risk committee.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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How can Sport Ireland be 100% sure that what we have seen will not happen again? What are the rigid mechanisms in place to ensure that a chairperson will not take upon himself what Mr. Barrett took upon himself and inform nobody?
Dr. Una May:
From our point of view, it is critical that the appropriate procedures and processes be in place. That is what we have been monitoring. We are monitoring very closely. I might ask my colleague to refer to this, although I know we are tight on time. We could give an indication and flavour of the amount of scrutiny we have done in this case. We identified that there were some questions to be answered and we followed through with an audit. Therefore, we have demonstrated a very clear commitment to monitoring these situations as they emerge, and we will continue to monitor and support the FAI in that process.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I thank all the witnesses for their input and work generally. I do not doubt that the governance issues we are discussing are serious and need to be resolved, but they need to be borne in mind in the context that the title of today’s discussion concerns the FAI’s Facility Investment Vision and Strategy for Irish Football. I do not want an important discussion on some of the governance decisions to be lost. That is critical.
I will question Dr. May and Mr. Ó Lionáin before the FAI representatives. Are Sport Ireland and the Department satisfied with the progress being made by the FAI? Do they have any serious concerns?
Dr. Una May:
From our perspective, we believe the progress made has been really transformational. The organisation has become a very secure and solid one. There have been some missteps in recent months and we were all disappointed to see that. However, we have been following very closely the progress of the governance reforms and believe they have been transformational.
Mr. Cian ? Lion?in:
I echo what Dr. May said. The view of the Department is that the FAI has broadly made good progress in governance and financial reforms, but it is really important to maintain the momentum built.
On the specific issue that has been the subject of discussion here, a clear mistake was made. Critically, it was identified because of good oversight. It was then recognised within the organisation and addressed. I acknowledge the considerable effort put in by Sport Ireland and, indeed, the team in the Department on this issue.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. Ó Lionáin happy the oversight measures caught the problem? This committee had to deal with another organisation for a large part of this year and there were questions about how things were caught. There is the history of the FAI, which we will not go into, but is Mr. Ó Lionáin happy the appropriate structures are now in place to catch any of these issues?
Mr. Cian ? Lion?in:
I would answer that by referring in the first instance to the independence and autonomy of NGBs. The very fact that there is an MOU between the FAI and the Government is born of extraordinary circumstances, but it has delivered extraordinary levels of oversight. I am happy that the process has worked and has got us to a stable place now.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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My next question is for Dr. May. The requirement is that the chief executive not be paid any more than the Secretary General of a Department. I assume it is a standard Secretary General of a Department, not one who may sit on the board of the FAI.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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My next question is based on the fact that Mr. Bonner is on the screen. He is probably the veteran. I say that respectfully. Having seen the FAI go through various guises over time, could he give his perspective on the governance issues and what we are due to talk about today, which concerns facilities investment and vision?
Mr. Packie Bonner:
I was in the association from 2003 until 2010, when I left, and I have been back in recent years. I can only talk about those two periods. I can talk about the middle one from a distance. Early on, of course, we went through a period of huge growth. Within our technical department, when I was technical director, many things were developed. We had a serious plan. Even our grassroots programmes led the way within UEFA. I work with UEFA at the moment. The programmes instigated a lot of the UEFA thinking and helped other federations. Of course, during the next period, the other bodies probably caught up on us a little. They are doing a lot of things we did then.
On governance, I can talk only about my time on the board. A lot of work had started and a great deal had to be done. Members will know there were over 160 recommendations that the board and executive had to follow up on. I am delighted to say that almost 97% of these have been implemented.
From my perspective, what we have been discussing today has been disappointing, but Sport Ireland and the Department have given their opinion on what has been achieved. Much has been achieved in the area of governance. I will leave it at that.
From a football perspective, I believe we are going in the right direction. I am delighted to say the putting in place of the facilities plan, the strategic plan, is a genuine positive. The audit carried out was a real help from that perspective. When I started, in 2002, the capital grants programme had been in place for probably three or four years and we had not really progressed as a football organisation to avail of it. However, we got capital grants amounting to nearly €52 million in 2002. That was the start. I saw so many projects established and progressed around the country in that period, but, of course, the game has changed dramatically. Participation in the women’s game has gone through the roof. Many clubs who were developing their clubs and facilities at the time in question are probably up to maximum and need help again from that perspective.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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If there are one or two recommendations in the report, but also generally, on which Mr. Bonner would have an ask of the Government regarding investment in grassroots soccer, what are they?
Mr. Packie Bonner:
That is a good question. I have travelled a lot throughout Europe and have seen many municipal multisport projects that have helped different sports. From that perspective, I would love to see more conversations in the Department of sport and maybe the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, and maybe even with the local authorities, on mandating the provision of these facilities – for all sports, not just our own.
From our own perspective, we have to prioritise what the investment plan and facility should be. We have to consider the grassroots but also our national league. There has been a paradigm shift in football in Ireland. With Brexit, most of our young players are now confined to Ireland. That was not the case when I was technical director. Mr. Brian Kerr and I made the point many times that if conditions were to change, we might be in trouble. That has happened but it also creates a genuine opportunity for us. There are three essentials when we talk about the development of sport, particularly football: having the right programmes in place; having the right people and expertise; and, fundamentally, having the right facilities in place to help, underpinned by funding and good communication.
That means synergies between grassroots, our national league and our football association. All of that has to come together for the future. It is about cohesion, synergies, working together and from that perspective, we need help from everybody and all the stakeholders concerned.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I might ask Mr. Hill or some of the FAI team to elaborate on that, on the basis of the submission here. If one was to look at trying to influence Government policy, what are the two or three areas where we could deliver in the short term? I am particularly thinking about grassroots but I get Mr. Bonner's point in that there has to be a synergy at all levels.
Mr. Jonathan Hill:
I thank the Senator, and if he has read our document and our vision, the largest amount of money that we have allocated is to go into grassroots. We are looking at around €425 million across a 15-year period. We know that is hard, and we absolutely accept that we have had a lot of help from Government already with grassroots facilities but we need so much more. There tend to be better facilities in clubs that have a bigger community against those that have a smaller community. As we have outlined, we have a really well thought through, data-driven, evidence-based approach to what we are looking for. It is across 128 new grass pitches, along with more artificial pitches because obviously, they get more use. It is about floodlights for those artificial pitches, and we have talked specifically about clubhouses and changing rooms within clubhouses. One of the things our audit told us was that in our existing facilities, such as we have, there is a real dearth of facilities for women and girls. One thing we would ask, and I this has been taken up by the Minister anyway, is that any new builds from now on will have to integrate facilities for women and girls. That would be a big policy shift to a degree.
The ask is reasonably simple. It is more help and more support. On Deputy Griffin's earlier point, we need to make sure that we are supporting our grassroots in particular to maximise the access to things like the SCP. We would like to the SCP happen more often, in all honesty. We also would like the criteria for clubs to be able to access SCP to be reduced to a degree with regard to those smaller clubs that may, for example, not own their ground or only have a very small or short lease on the facility. That would be something we would ask the Government to look closely at, making it easier for our grassroots clubs to be able to avail of the existing grant funds that we have. We will help them do that and it would be great if Government would help us do that too.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I want to ask about the issue Mr. Bonner raised, the issue around multi-use sporting facilities - which is a challenge for the community - and the co-operation between the FAI at grassroots level and other sporting codes.
Mr. Jonathan Hill:
We have referred to 32 community club hubs within our eight existing regions. There are four in each of them, on balance. We would imagine that all of those would be available for multisport use, which we think is the sensible way forward for everybody, and for communities to have access to, as the Senator put it, a municipal facility where the ability to access, and the cost of accessing, the facilities within it are not prohibitive for those local communities.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I want to conclude-----
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Senator Byrne has seconds.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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-----by commending the FAI on its work on the women's game, not just with the national team, although their success has brought great joy to all of this summer. I can see the activity at grassroots level so I welcome the comments, and the fact that it is very much built into the strategy here today.
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome all the witnesses. I am going to start with Mr. Bonner, who has been waiting patiently. He is an independent member of the board, is that correct?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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What is Mr. Bonner's opinion on the withholding of the information by the former chair, Mr. Roy Barrett, to the full board of the FAI in respect of the Sport Ireland investigation and suspension of funding?
Mr. Packie Bonner:
First and foremost, any board needs full information - that is for sure - to make good, rational decisions, have decent debate, and scrutinise anything that is going on. From that perspective, I would have preferred to have all of the information in a timely manner so we could debate the issue.
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Bonner think it was wrong?
Mr. Packie Bonner:
I would rather have had it as a member, to be perfectly honest. I was not aware of the issue until after the board meeting on 1 November, and that was probably disappointing for me. I was part of the board meeting up until a certain point on that date because I was abroad. I was not aware of the issue until some of the other board members sent a couple of emails around, and that triggered-----
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Okay. I want to touch on that board meeting. In the summary of the KOSI report that has been supplied to the committee members here, it also touched on the fact that the audit followed on from a previous audit conducted for Sport Ireland in respect of the financial year 2021. It concluded that in the financial year, the condition was not embedded within the FAI. When was Mr. Bonner aware of that incident, and the other one as well?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Of this year?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Okay, so just to recap: Mr. Bonner, as a board member, was not told about the failure to comply with the MOU in 2021 until two years later on 1 November 2023, by which time he was also made aware of a second breach in a row, which resulted in a suspension of funding of €6.8 million?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Okay. Ms Joyce stated an hour ago here that the breaches were unintentional. They cannot have been unintentional. There was a request, and there was a payment. It breached the MOU, and critically, Ms Joyce's advice to the chair was that it was not good practice and she would not recommend it, and he was so advised. So it was not unintentional. The only reason it stopped is because an auditor saw that clearly on the books. There was a clear intention to make a payment, and the onus was to check the consequences. People either did not check or did not care but it was not unintentional.
Mr. Hill is welcome. Other committee members and I met Mr. Hill and his leadership team at Abbotstown on 23 May of this year to discuss the future of Irish football. One thing that struck me on that day is the fact that Mr. Hill was at pains to stress that this was a new regime, different from the last. In fact, he would not even say the name of John Delaney, simply referring to his "predecessor". It was akin to Lord Voldemort from the Harry Potter movies, "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named". I do not have the Hogwarts guide to magic with me today but I do have the FAI employee handbook. Mr. Hill has read this?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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That is good. He has signed it on page 3 but the man who signed the Government MOU said here at 2.30 p.m. that he did not read it.
I want to bring Mr. Hill back to last November when staff received an email from one of his colleagues in the HR department reminding them that all holidays had to be taken by the end of December, and that only five days could be carried into 2023. Did Mr. Hill receive that email?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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So do I but I am just asking if Mr. Hill got that email.
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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He does not recollect getting that email advising the staff? If another member of staff told Mr. Hill - as his or her boss - that he or she did not recall getting that email from him, would that be acceptable?
Let us presume he did get the email. He said that he read the handbook concerning the rules on holiday pay. Let us get to the heart of this because Mr. Hill said today that in respect of these payments to him in lieu of holidays, the conversations occurred through a series of emails. Is that correct?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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The then finance director was who?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Alex O'Connell. Okay. Mr. Hill said here earlier that the conversations happened through a series of emails. That is good. To whom was the very first email sent?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Okay. However, in respect of Mr. Hill, to whom was the very first email sent?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Obviously, Mr. Hill dealt with that matter. I do not want to get into that person's details. However, where or to whom was the first email sent in respect of Mr. Hill?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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The then finance director contacted the chair.
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Without any prompt from Mr. Hill.
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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I just want to get the answer. Did the finance director independently of Mr. Hill as CEO make a suggestion to Mr. Barrett? That is what I am trying to get to.
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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I know, but I am finding that hard to believe. That is giving me the impression that this is kind of like a WhatsApp chat going, "Jesus, Jonathan, you should get a bit as well". It did not work like that. Mr. Hill said it was an email. I am trying to find out to whom the first email was sent making a suggestion that Mr. Hill should be in receipt of a similar package to the person who had just been sanctioned?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Okay. I am just confused on the timelines because Mr. Hill is saying that it was December. Mr. Barrett told delegates on Saturday that his first approach on this was February. Where am I missing something?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Who contacted Mr. Barrett first in respect of this?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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It was the end of February. At the end point, who came to Mr. Barrett at the end of February with the recommendation?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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It was the HR director. Did Mr. Hill sign a letter warning the general assembly members that funding for this year would be suspended over the gender balance issue prior to those meetings taking place?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Okay, so Mr. Hill co-signed that letter. That would have been the start of November prior to that EGM taking place on the ninth?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Hill signed that letter warning delegates of the consequences of the non-compliance on gender but made no reference to the fact that Government funding had actually already been suspended.
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Now we are playing on words. Mr. Hill wrote a letter-----
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Hill wrote a letter to all of the FAI family warning them that funding for 2024 would be jeopardised if they did not comply with the gender balance quota, but did not tell them that, by the way, Government funding for this year has already been suspended because of actions by Mr. Hill. Was that right?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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This is a question of whether we are telling the truth or the whole truth.
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, but Mr. Hill had a bigger problem.
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Hill was worried about paying the bills next year but at the very time, he could not pay the bills this year because Government funding had been suspended and he did not feel it worth his while to tell the football family that this had happened.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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The Senator has a very final question.
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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I am just bang on the ten minutes, Chair. When was the payment made to the other employee who was the first recipient of the holiday payment?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Hill is not aware of when it was paid.
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. Barrett aware?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Is there anyone from finance here who could tell me when those payments were made?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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It was paid to her at the end of 2022. When was the payment to Mr. Hill made?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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It was in March. Why March if we had a scenario of the timelines here?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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There was not an attempt here to try to circumvent a MOU and the accounts and having that as a note on the account.
Mr. Roy Barrett:
Absolutely at no stage through this process was there any attempt to conceal anything or breach anything. In fact, in terms of the decision commuting a benefit to a different benefit, in my view and in the overall scheme of things, we would not be in breach of MOU condition 35. That was the-----
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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The messaging today has been that the FAI is not concealing but equally, it is very clear that it is not offering any information. That has been made clear. That is undeniable.
Mr. Roy Barrett:
I am sorry. If the Senator wants any information on anything, I will provide it to him if I can. Through this decision, it should not be lost that every attempt was made to be in conformity with MOU condition 35, as there has always been around every other one of the 163 recommendations. That has always been the intention.
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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I know, but in the opening statement, Mr. Hill said that he acknowledged that "we did not comply fully with MOU condition 35 in 2022." He went on to say that "This cannot happen again." The point was, though, that it happened in 2021 and 2022. Do we know of any breaches in 2023? The purpose of this meeting was to appear before the Oireachtas to seek the endorsement of the Oireachtas in funds of more than €500 million to help football. There has to be a level of trust, therefore, between the Oireachtas and the body that is coming in here seeking more than €500 million.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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We will have to conclude on that. I thank Senator Cassells very much. I call Senator Warfield. The floor is his and he has ten minutes.
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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I will ask the Department why soccer has been allowed to fall so far behind in terms of capital funding and investment in infrastructure in Ireland.
Mr. Cian ? Lion?in:
I thank the Senator. I am not sure I would necessarily take that interpretation, but the way the sports capital system works is that there is an open call for proposals. The programme has been running for a number of decades now. Individual clubs will apply for equipment or a capital grant or a combination of both. Criteria are very clearly laid out every year. Successive Ministers might tweak criteria and bring in new factors. Then, fundamentally, it is a factor for each national governing body, NGB, of sport to get the message out to its clubs to avail of this funding.
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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Surely, Mr. Ó Lionáin can see a pattern over 20 years where the GAA is in receipt of €431 million and football or soccer is in receipt of €188 million. Surely, he cannot just put it down to the NGB. It is public money going out.
Mr. Cian ? Lion?in:
Historically, the Senator is correct. Soccer clubs did not apply at the same level as other of the major field sports. That does seem to have changed in recent years. As I said in my opening statement, there has been a significant uptick in both the volume of applications and quantum of money sought under the 2023 round. Hopefully, that will be reflected in the allocations. That does seem to be reflective of a specific engagement by the FAI with its affiliates and member clubs to get greater engagement with the programme. Hopefully, that is a development we will see continue into the future.
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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Why is it a rule that a lease of 15 years or more is needed to access certain Government funding? Soccer clubs, essentially, are excluded as 27% of soccer clubs have leases of less than one year.
Mr. Cian ? Lion?in:
The requirement to have either ownership or a long lease on the property is a long-established rule of the sports capital programme going back more than 20 years.
It is about making sure there is a stability of recipient to receive taxpayers' money. Those who do not comply with that rule are eligible to apply for lesser grants and-or equipment grants. It does not have to be about ownership; it can be long lease as well. Again, I understand the FAI is trying to work with clubs on getting into those longer term leases. This is something a range of sports have had to grapple with. It is long-established practice to make sure that taxpayers' money goes into a secure, long-term space.
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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I just want to ensure that taxpayers' money is shared in a more equal way across the sports, particularly a popular sport such as soccer. What is the concern? Surely, a football pitch would have to be rezoned in order to be sold off. Is the officials' fear that the asset would be sold or whatever?
Mr. Cian ? Lion?in:
No, I am not necessarily suggesting that. I am saying that established practice shows that for clubs which have either ownership or long-term lease there is, by definition, a longer term strategy and plan for the club. It generally ensures a higher level of comfort that taxpayers' money is being well invested. This and other issues are considered in the periodic reviews of the sports capital programme. The review of the 2020 programme is on the Department's website. It runs to 50 or 60 pages and there is material there. This is something that is periodically looked at. Again, there will be a review of the 2023 programme post allocations next year. We do not take a passive approach. We consider all the factors that are out there. We will do that again in 2024.
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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It strikes me that the rules do not suit the situation for soccer clubs where half of clubs do not own their facilities and rent, but certainly do not rent on leases for 15 years.
Who is responsible for legacy funding? I see a figure of €6.2 million in legacy funding for the cohosting of Euro 2028, which obviously has great potential for football in Ireland. A lot of people in grassroots soccer are eager to hear what the community gain will be or whether there will a League of Ireland gain as well. The figure of €6.2 million in legacy funding is being suggested. What will that go towards? Who is responsible for that money?
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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I do not know who is responsible for the €6.2 million.
Mr. Cian ? Lion?in:
We are a few years away from the championships, which will be a collaborative process. I suspect the Football Association of Ireland might be better placed to go into the details of that. There is an allocation for it but definitive decisions have not yet been taken, as I understand it.
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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How much is it suggested the tournament might cost to stage? Is it €300 million? In that context, €6 million seems very small for legacy funding.
Mr. David Courell:
I am happy to address the Senator's question on legacy moneys. That is a pot that was agreed collectively across the five associations and five governments involved in the joint bid. The apportionment for the Republic of Ireland, as the Senator said, is circa €6.5 million. Throughout the bid process, we had a legacy working group across all partners that identified a framework of different initiatives we could invest this money into. That could range from women's and girls' football to the Respect Our Game initiative, or it might be facilities, which is obviously what we are here to talk about. There is a broad spectrum across the partnership of where each respective country, and the association in collaboration with its government, could decide where the moneys should be invested. For us in the association, given our primary focus is on facilities and, as the Senator alluded to, there is a dire need for investment, it would certainly be our preference to put the lion's share of it towards that.
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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I have attended League of Ireland games all my life. I have stood on woody terraces in stands that have no seats in them anymore. They are not even terraces. They are just concrete former stands with corrugated iron roofs. The infrastructure in the league is an absolute disgrace. Soccer fans have put up with it and it has gone without investment for so long. We now have a situation, post Covid, where people want something authentic and the facilities are just creaking. One club that has had the support of the Government and South Dublin County Council is top of the league.
Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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Good players.
Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin Bay North, Labour)
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I object to that.
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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We put you up in Inchicore for long enough. We have a situation where the infrastructure has been neglected by everybody. The fans of the league do not have confidence in the FAI and never have. That is why I am not shocked we are here again on a governance issue, which I have not got into because it has been covered at length, but which I am outraged by. We only have ten teams in the league. This is not difficult. We do not need to overcomplicate this situation. We need to invest in the infrastructure in order for us to move the league on and for teams to compete. If everybody had a Tallaght Stadium and everyone could compete at that level, we would be in a much different place. It would be transformative for Irish soccer. I would love to know whether the FAI representatives attend league games. I am afraid to ask.
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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We need private investment, and investment from the Government and local authorities. I hope the issues around governance and ethics the FAI faces do not affect private investment and the investment the league so desperately needs because it has been neglected for so long. Sin é. I am out of time.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Did Ms O'Mahony want to come in on something?
Ms Niamh O'Mahony:
I will mention that I am elected to the FAI board as the only female director. Unfortunately, I am a Cork City fan, for my sins, and we have not had such a great year. I was nominated by the supporters side of the house. I will put on record that I am the first person elected by a national supporters body out of the 55 nations in UEFA. When the Senator talked about facilities in the League of Ireland, it resonated. Since 2019, the relationship between supporters and the association has dramatically improved.
On the national league side of it, I also sit on the national leagues committee, or used to at least. The relationship and looking forward to next season are all about the supporters and league office working together to identify problematic areas and what can be done in the short term. That is very much a focus for my side of the house and also the League of Ireland office in general.
Mr. Jonathan Hill:
I thank the Senator for his comments. We share his desire to have League of Ireland facilities that match those in other similar-sized European markets. We recognise there has been 20 years of underinvestment. No one entity is to blame for that. All of us need to come together, including the clubs, which, as I said, have plans for their own stadia, training facilities and academies. We are looking to support them in that.
On the IIP programme, we are awaiting good news on a significant boost to that strategy.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Senator Warfield for those questions. Senator Carrigy has ten minutes.
Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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I welcome all our guests. Core to why we are here is about trying to rebuild, for a second or third time, the trust between the Oireachtas, the Government and the FAI. The organisation has been before the committee on a number of occasions. Even through the Covid pandemic, employees at a leadership level in the organisation were being paid significant amounts, hundreds of thousands of euro, without actually being asked to do a job, which was disgraceful, to be honest.
It was stated that 97% of the Sport Ireland recommendations have been implemented. This question goes to the Department, as it is ultimately part of government. Do the officials have faith in the current board following what they heard over the past hour and a half and what has happened in previous months? Do they have complete faith in the people who are here to deliver the infrastructure that is needed for soccer in the country going forward?
Dr. Una May:
I reiterate that we are comfortable that the FAI has made very significant progress and has transformed the organisation from a low point. However, this situation has given us pause for thought and we are disappointed that it arose. As a result of this, it is something that we will continue to monitor even more closely, probably than we already have. We have monitored the situation very closely and we have ensured that at no point did we take our eye off the ball. That is something we will continue to do because, from our point of view, it is important that we have a strong national governing body. Our relationship and our funding relationship is with the national governing body. Across all sports, we want to ensure that we have strong and effective governing bodies that can deliver for sport for the entire population.
Mr. Cian ? Lion?in:
I would add that good governance requires constant vigilance and effort and that is something that the FAI, as the NGB for football in Ireland, really needs to embrace. I believe that it has but constant vigilance is required by itself.
Looking ahead to the future, the Minister of State has said he is open to a conversation about an extended or second MOU that would have good governance and good financial management at its core. That will require time investment by both the Department and Sport Ireland, but having put the effort over the past few years into helping the FAI to get back into a better position, the Minister and the Minister of State would be open to putting in that additional period to make sure that the time and financial investment will be rewarded in the future.
Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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That they are ultimately uncomfortable and open to a conversation does not instill confidence in me as a member here representing the taxpayer, to be quite honest. The reality is we have had poor leadership in the FAI over a long number of years. We questioned the lack of soccer infrastructure in the country. The reality is the leadership has not been there at the top to drive that infrastructure. We have seen it in other national organisations, be it the GAA or rugby. They have improved their infrastructure throughout the country. They have maximised the grants that have been available, be it the large-scale infrastructure fund or the sports capital. That comes from the top. That is the reality. In my view, we continue to have poor leadership. What Dr. May and Mr. Ó Lionáin have said is that they are uncomfortable and are open to a conversation. That does not instill confidence in me, as a member here, that they would have in the people who are here at the top level within the FAI. We seriously need to look at it.
I will reference back to 12 or 18 months ago, when I and Senator Malcolm Byrne were probably the two main people pushing the issue in respect of the IABA. There was confidence expressed by both Sport Ireland and the Department in that organisation and it took the resignation of its CEO and chairperson to rebuild that organisation representing boxing in the country. Something of a similar nature may need to happen here to rebuild the confidence of the people of Ireland in the governance of soccer in the country.
I will highlight something contained in a briefing note. There are 75 grassroot leagues that have their own governance structure independent of the FAI. That is not fit for purpose. In any organisation, where one has independent structures within a larger structure all with their own variance of governance, that is not good governance. Dr. May might give me an opinion on that, from Sport Ireland's point of view.
Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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Ultimately, Sport Ireland is the main providing body. What is Sport Ireland's view? Should the FAI restructure the organisation to bring it all under the one governance structure?
Dr. Una May:
We would not take a position on that. We have our relationship with the national governing body. Our relationship is to ensure that, at the national level, the structure is in place. We see that the FAI is on a journey of reform and we are comfortable that that journey of reform has to continue. We will continue to monitor and support them in that journey.
Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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Mr. Hill, from the FAI point of view, might respond.
Mr. Jonathan Hill:
We mentioned earlier the eight regions that we have created in terms of overseeing grassroots football in particular. We are looking to beef up that regional approach to make sure that we can work with those local leagues and also our local affiliates within those regions. It is something that we need to look at. We want to cascade consistent governance throughout all of those leagues but we will also look at structures, and maybe, at some point, a consolidation of those structures is something that we will look at. Things like having a common rule book for all of the leagues to work against, as well as proposing a sound constitution, for example, for all of the leagues to work against, but a consistent one, would be something that we are looking at from 2024 onwards. I thank the Senator for his comments.
Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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The facility investment strategy is a €800 million-plus proposal throughout the country. The reality is that there is significant investment needed, as Mr. Hill said, throughout the regions.
There has been good practice. I come from Longford. A significant investment was put in by Longford Town as a small rural club. It is a 5,000 all-seater stadium. I do not see why some of the other, bigger clubs in bigger population areas could not have driven on themselves to develop such facilities. There is investment needed to get more young people involved and playing sport.
They mentioned in the strategy that 60% of that funding will come from Government. Has any commitment been given by the Department to match-fund that? The Department mentioned in its introductory piece that such a commitment over a ten-year period basically equates to the full sports capital programme. What commitment is there from the Department to match-fund this proposal or is it a pie-in-the-sky proposal?
Mr. Cian ? Lion?in:
At this juncture, the FAI's strategy is definitely a very useful contribution to the overall discussion about what is the right-sized level for long-term capital investment in sport in Ireland. One of the key priorities for the Department and the Minister and the Minister of State in the coming period will be discussions on the size and the shape of a future national development plan. We will certainly be arguing strongly for a significant increase in funding to sport, more generally, for sports capital, large-scale infrastructure and, indeed, other needs that are out there. Our focus is on growing the sports capital pie and that is where the focus will be in the next couple of months.
In terms of the strategy, as I said, it is a useful contribution but there are other sports out there as well that have their own investment plans. What we want is, I suppose, a conversation with the Department of public expenditure and reform in the coming months on the future NDP and that is the priority for us.
Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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Has the FAI had any engagement with the local authorities? It mentions discussions with local authorities in respect of funding as well. Have discussions taken place with the local authorities?
Mr. Ger McDermott:
We are conscious that the local authorities have been funding, to the tune of close to €1.3 million, the work that we do within grassroots and much of the community work that our development officers do. With the regional managers that Mr. Hill mentioned within each of the eight regions, we are now able to facilitate those conversations directly about facilities, infrastructure and what core programmes need.
Longford is a good example. The Senator referenced where 13 of the 15 clubs are renting facilities. Not only can they not access some of the funding that is available, they are paying €20,000 or €30,000 a year just to train before they even play matches. Those are the type of conversations that we are now having locally with the local authorities.
Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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We purchased a site within Longford Town and the aim would be that it would be a home for at least two of the schoolboy soccer clubs within the town. The local authority and the members are being progressive about doing that. I agree with Mr. McDermott that it is unacceptable that people have had to fundraise to rent grounds for training.
In regard to large-scale infrastructure-----
Mr. Gerry McAnaney:
The Senator is so right. Ballyboro FC, as the Senator will be well aware, is a perfect example in Longford of the community and local school getting together to share facilities. As has been mentioned by many people here today, that is what we are on about - municipal sharing of facilities. That is a perfect example in the Senator's own area.
Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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As regards the large-scale infrastructure funding, only three projects that were put forward within that are currently funded.
It looks like that will be opened up next year. Where will the FAI prioritise what projects go into that next round of funding? Where is the FAI prioritising those to be located because the reality is that all the applications will not be taken at the one time?
Mr. Jonathan Hill:
We do have to prioritise with regard to our own available resource to support this. We have helped. I mentioned Finn Harps earlier as regards its interaction with the LSSIF. We helped Sligo Rovers. Although it is not connected to the fund itself, we supported them. The board will look at individual cases. Most of our clubs have some form of plan with regard to either stadium development - be it just one stand - or potential training or academy facilities so we will look at all of them in the round. The most important thing is to help and support those individual clubs in their own applications for the fund.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for being with us. It has been most helpful and insightful. I will start by concurring with what the departmental officials said. My view on the ground locally is that the FAI has done a really good job at encouraging the local clubs this time to participate more in the sports capital funding avenues. I agree with lots of my colleagues that with regard to their venues right across the country, even in places such as Cavan-Monaghan, some are very good but some are very poor. In terms of encouraging female participation that is really not helpful. As Mr. Bonner alluded to there has been an explosion in women's football and that is in no small part down to the fabulous women that represent us as a country on the Irish team.
Mr. Ó Lionáin stated there has been a marked difference in the number of soccer sports clubs coming forward for the sports capital funding and it is incredibly important that we see that trend continue to increase. More work needs to be done to give the support that is needed to volunteers on the ground to be in a position to apply for funds. I really understand Senator Warfield's point as to why it is important clubs have long-term leases or own their own grounds. If significant amounts of taxpayers' money is being spent on those grounds we need to know they will be there for the players, volunteers and supporters into the future. That is a good thing.
I want to go back to Mr. Ó Lionáin's opening statement and the paragraph where he gave the analogy about the strategy proposed by the FAI with regard to what that will cost the Government and, ultimately, the taxpayer. We are talking about €46 million per annum of Government support for this 15-year strategy. That is what is in the opening statement and it should be noted that the central Government ask alone is €34 million per year which equates to almost the full amount of the sports capital expenditure. I hope Mr. Ó Lionáin will not tell me that will wipe out our sports capital fund because that is critically important to sports right across the board. Will Mr. Ó Lionáin extrapolate on the point he is trying to make?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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If we have a sports capital fund that is not even that amount and has to be shared across sports fields right throughout the country how realistic is it?
Mr. Cian ? Lion?in:
What I referred to earlier is the conversation that will happen across the Government and the review of the NDP will be critical. I understand that conversation will start soon. It will set financial parameters for the next phase of the national development plan and as a Department - supported by some of the asks that are emerging from sports such as football in Ireland and other sports - we will make a very strong case for increased funding. We recognise there is a limit to taxpayer funding but we will certainly make as strong a case as possible. The Department will then be in a better position to answer the Chair's question more accurately when we know the quantum of funding that is available there.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Can Mr. Ó Lionáin assure me that it will not in any way negatively impact on the sports capital funding that is there at the moment?
Mr. Cian ? Lion?in:
The sports capital and equipment programme has been a tremendous success over 20 to 30 years and we certainly would not want to do anything to undermine that. It works well and delivers to local clubs in every parish in the country. It has a very engaged and responsive team who work with the clubs that apply so we certainly would have no interest in undermining that as a concept. As a sports ecosystem we would argue for additionality to meet the additional needs there for football and a range of other sports in Ireland. That is probably a wider national conversation as well.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister effectively will look to double the budget to be able to deliver this 15-year plan to keep going and increase sports capital funding.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I will go back to Mr. Hill or perhaps Mr. McDermott, they can decide between them who wants to comment. The Department's briefing paper refers to the education bodies and local authorities. I know Mr. McDermott touched on it a little but I want to make the point that if €46 million is the total ask and €34 million is to come from central Government that means that leaves €12 million to be made up by local government, health authorities and education bodies. Who can tell me what kind of conversations or engagements the FAI has had or where that will come from? To my mind the local authorities have fairly limited funding as well. It comes from the sports partnerships. There are maybe other organisations I am not aware of. Will they be a bit more specific about where that €12 million will come from on the ground?
Mr. Ger McDermott:
There are a few issues. On the local authority piece we have a number of clubs that would go directly to local authorities for more localised funding. To give an example, Howth Celtic has been turned down recently on the planning application side and it had invested a significant sum of money - I think €20,000 initially and it may cost them another €30,000.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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That would be once-off rather than annual.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Is a model being used by the GAA or any other sports entity that we can point to that will suggest that is a realistic ambition to say we will be able to achieve €12 million per annum for local authorities, health authorities and educational bodies?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry, what funding streams is Mr. McDermott talking about exactly?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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What about the local authorities?
Mr. Ger McDermott:
The local authorities still have a role to play, particularly in the case of a football club where it does not have a long-term lease they have identified land and need to get access to the land. Howth Celtic is a good example again and it is within Fingal County Council. It is very difficult for a club that does not have enough land to acquire that land and that is where the local authority would have a key role to play from-----
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, okay. I am just trying to tease it out a little bit. Is that not more of a once-off than continual annual-----
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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That is depending on €12 million per annum from the local authorities and education bodies. When Mr. McDermott refers to education bodies who is he thinking of or what models does he point to as examples?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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The Department of Education is not funding PE halls at the moment. It is dependent on sports capital funds and projects like that so where will the funding come from?
Mr. Ger McDermott:
That is where we are trying to open a conversation with those Departments. Multi-sport has been mentioned a few times and in the case of the education sector it is the FAI having a clear strategy not just to weave football into the education sector, because it is very powerful. It is a very accessible game and we see how the country is changing in terms of population make-up.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I will take it on another bit. The health authorities were mentioned, what is the model we can look to as examples for something like that happening with another sport entity?
Mr. Ger McDermott:
I would point to European examples for the model there where our counterparts in football have made the case for sport as a healthy option for society. From a health perspective I do not think we view sport and football as a prevention and it is. Things like the social return on investment, SROI, model which we have spoken about a few times will point to the fact that if we invest in facilities - whether it is multi-sport or football alone - the population will be healthier.
It requires long-term thinking. That is why we have set it out over 15 years. From a healthcare perspective, however, there is serious money to be saved at Government and Exchequer level if we invest.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I accept that. I am just struggling to see where. I do not want to rain on the witnesses' parade. I appreciate ambition. This is an ambitious plan, but it is €12 million from local authorities, educational authorities and health authorities. Can Mr. McDermott give me an example of where that has already happened with another sport in this country?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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The FAI is trying to create a new model that has not existed up to this point.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Is that realistic?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I will come back to the Department on that question. Can Mr. Ó Lionáin give me any examples of where partnerships like this exist in any other sport? Can we be confident that it is a workable formula for delivering something like this with the local authorities. I am conscious that a lot of schools are struggling to get PE halls.
Mr. Cian ? Lion?in:
The area we are most familiar with is where we have partnerships within the sports capital structure. Under the current round, as the Deputy will be aware, we are trying to encourage more co-operation between all types of sports and schools. With respect to the Cathaoirleach's direct question about an immediate parallel, none comes immediately to mind.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I will move on. We have a guest who is not a member of this committee but who has joined us today. Deputy Ó Ríordáin has five minutes. Before he begins, I inform colleagues that we will have a second round of five minutes if the witnesses have the patience to stay another while.
Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin Bay North, Labour)
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I have five minutes of injury time. I will do my best with it.
Football is probably one of the most powerful games we have. It is the most effective anti-racism, anti-addiction and anti-poverty tool we have. Traditionally, it has been unloved by the political system. Notwithstanding the importance of the governance issues that have been raised, I am taken by the comments by Sport Ireland and the Department that what has happened at the FAI in the past few years has been transformational.
Two weeks ago the Oireachtas waved through €95 million to the horse and greyhound fund. We do so annually without much discussion. With that in mind, I have three questions. Will Mr. Barrett expand on previous comments he made about the horse and greyhound fund's potential and about the levy on betting to be increased from 2% to 3%, which would be an effective funding stream for the type of ambition the FAI has shown?
I will ask Mr. Ó Lionáin about the sports capital grant from the Department's point of view. It is not fit for purpose. I agree with what Senator Warfield said. It disproportionately benefits clubs and associations that have middle-class members with a middle-class education. A game that is traditionally working class, such as soccer, will not get the same amount of funding. The Department asks the clubs to submit applications rather than asking the local authorities to do an audit of what is needed. It is hard for football clubs, given the areas they come from and the type of children and disadvantaged areas they are dealing with, to compete on the same level. Let us be frank, they often do not have the same level of education or professional backgrounds on their committees as other clubs or codes may have.
On the player pathway, much has been said about Brexit. I was taken with some of the women who flew the Irish flag in the summer and gave us great joy. Many of them played in the league here until recently. Twelve years ago, 70% of the Irish women's national team were based at domestic clubs. Now, two of the players who were involved in the domestic league are no longer playing here. One has retired and the other moved to Glasgow City. Do we not have the potential for some kind of centralised contract scenario where the State, in partnership with the FAI, could produce a number of contracts, as has been done in other codes, to provide a platform for young women in particular to stay here, to grow the game here and be icons in their communities, rather than them having to fulfil their footballing ambitions for pretty meagre money on one-year rolling contracts in the UK?
Those are my three questions. One is on the horse and greyhound fund-----
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should leave a few minutes to answer. He has used quite a bit of his time speaking.
Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin Bay North, Labour)
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Yes, I thank the Chair.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Two minutes.
Mr. Roy Barrett:
I will take the betting issue first. Our report identifies that there is chronic underinvestment in football and that the sport needs to look at all funding streams. The current betting tax rate is 2%. It is split 80-20 between horse racing and greyhound racing, effectively €80 million and €20 million per annum goes to those two sports, although close to 40% of all bets placed are on football. Our simple argument is not that funding should be taken away from other sports, but that the betting levy could be increased from 2% to 3%. The additional 1% could be made available to be used by all sports, such as for multisport facilities or whatever. That would represent a permanent funding stream for our sport and for other sports, which could be put to good use in the context of our overall infrastructure plan. Mr. McDermott alluded quite reasonably to all the benefits that accrue to society from people playing sport. Our sport happens to be the largest.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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In 30 seconds, Mr. Hill.
Mr. Jonathan Hill:
There was a second question about the SCEP, but I will respond on the player pathways. The Deputy and I have spoken about this before. It is something we want to do to support the women's game, especially in the League of Ireland. There is a cost element to it. We have moved towards professional contracts for women players in the League of Ireland, which is a good step forward for those who want to address them. We are not against our players going to the UK or anywhere in Europe if it is the right thing for them, but this is part of a broader conversation about making the women's League of Ireland as fit for purpose as it can be for us to continue to develop players for the national team.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Who was the final question for? Mr. Ó Lionáin.
Mr. Cian ? Lion?in:
On the question about the SCEP, I emphasise it is an adaptive programme. There is a continual series of reviews, so the programme has evolved a lot in the past couple of decades. On the Deputy's specific points, if he looks at the Minister's announcements on this and previous rounds, he will see there is a strong focus on disadvantage and enhanced scoring for DEIS areas. One of the new areas we are focusing the current round of the programmes on is enhanced scoring for applications that provide for equal access for females and males. One other thing I will point to is that going forward, Sport Ireland has developed a facilities database. It was launched only a month or two ago and it has been continually added to. That will give us yet another tool to identify areas of greatest infrastructural deficit in the country. It gives exciting possibilities for future rounds of both capital programmes, the SCEP and the LSSIF.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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For the second round with committee members, we will begin with Deputy Dillon. We will then go to Deputy Andrews, Deputy Griffin and so on. We will get through everyone. Deputy Dillon has five minutes.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There seems to be a serious lack of credibility in Mr. Hill's explanation of how he received the top-up payments in lieu of holidays. Does he accept that there are missing pieces in the information presented to the committee today?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In preparation for the Committee of Public Accounts meeting that will take place early in the new year, we will need to see the emails that were sent in order to see who initiated the conversation. It is important that we establish the facts. What is evident today is that these payments were made in secret and were part of a cosy arrangement between Mr. Hill, the former finance director, the HR director and the FAI chairman, who Mr. Hill says initiated this.
What is evident today is that these payments were made in secret and were part of a cosy arrangement between Mr. Hill, the former finance director, the HR director and the chairman, whom Mr. Hill says initiated this. What has been presented today is a cock-and-bull story about how this came about. We know that the remuneration committee was not in favour of it - that committee is the first port of call in any of these types of conversation – and the board had to be informed of any decision relating to the CEO’s pay. Does Mr. Hill believe these are the leadership qualities of a chief executive who puts transparency and good governance at the heart of his role?
Mr. Jonathan Hill:
I will refer to my answer about the journey we have been on over the past three years and the relationship I hope I have, not just with the staff but with all of our stakeholders, which is an honest and transparent one. We sat with the staff and talked them through recent events, and we have spoken openly and have worked collaboratively with Sport Ireland in respect of the KOSI audit. We are always open to the audit process. We have a similar and, I hope, positive relationship with the Department and the Government. I can only say again that I am committed to the task at hand.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Hill has received three salary increases since taking up the position of CEO. His salary has increased by 22%, or €47,000. Is the salary cap the target or the limit in terms of the linkage with Secretaries General?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Who initiates the request for pay increases?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is it discussed at a board level and a remuneration committee level?
Ms Liz Joyce:
Perhaps I can lend assistance. The salary increases that are applied in line with the Secretary General benchmark salary, as agreed with the Department, are applied following recommendations from the EPRCO to the board and are approved by the board. Every other element of the remuneration is also approved by the board. Clearly, unintentional breaches of the MOU took place in this case. As soon as we were aware of the situation, we attempted to address it as speedily as possible. The committee needs to be aware of that.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Joyce. Ms Guy sits on the audit, risk and compliance committee.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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On which committee does Ms Guy sit?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Was the governance committee aware of the concerns around the internal audit’s findings and the recommendations that were proposed but not implemented?
Ms Catherine Guy:
The governance committee is aware of, and has discussed, the most recent findings of the KOSI report, specifically on MOU 35. In the way we are set up, ARC also has a role in the review of KOSI audits. As mentioned, those are quite frequent. Actually, they are not frequent, but they are regular because they are part of the framework for the overall compliance, so they have been reviewed previously.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Why was no action taken?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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On the findings within the reports prior to the most recent KOSI report. I am referring to the audit in June 2022.
Ms Catherine Guy:
That was reviewed. Among other conditions, MOU 35 specifically was noted as not having been embedded. I also attend the governance oversight group, which is our joint working group with Sport Ireland and part of the framework for reviewing and assessing compliance with the recommendations. If I might paraphrase, there is effectively a two-step approach, with phase 1 setting things up and phase 2 embedding. Governance or, rather, new procedures and processes do not happen overnight. MOU 35 was identified as one of, I believe, 20-plus conditions that had not been embedded at that time. This matter was considered at the ARCFC. It would also have been something the board was aware of in terms of the consideration of the financial statements. It was not embedded of itself but would not have given rise to a red flag, per se, because it is an iterative process in terms of setting something up and embedding it. I hope I have answered the question.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does Ms Guy not believe that, after May 2023 when funding was suspended, matters moved more quickly with a reaction by embedding condition 35 of the MOU?
Ms Catherine Guy:
The funding being delayed was a decision that probably came a little later. A considerable amount of engagement work was done between May and September. I would not call it relatively routine, but in KOSI’s assessments, there are always questions and answers and back and forth. That process happened over a period of months. I would say that matters moved quite speedily and in accordance with the process in place, that being, the back and forth.
Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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I wish to ask Mr. Ó Lionáin about the sports capital grant. It has had a very positive impact on clubs throughout the country and has been important for them, but an element of the grant that has been raised with me is how clubs, particularly in working-class communities, struggle to raise funds. If a club applies for a €50,000 grant for lights or something, it already needs money to be able to draw down the grant to pay for the project. Most of the clubs in inner-city communities I represent do not have that funding, though, and are therefore excluded from applying for sports capital grants. In leafier suburbs, rugby clubs and so on have professional members and can ask them to chip in €1,000 each, and they will get the funding rapidly, but this requirement is a significant disincentive for small amateur clubs in inner-city communities. Will the Department seek to address this matter? Why has it not done so? It seems a glaring issue to me from the feedback I have received from local clubs.
Mr. Cian ? Lion?in:
It is something that has been raised over the years. As a result, the sports capital team in the Department takes a flexible approach to the allocation of grants that have been awarded. Let us say a €50,000 grant has been awarded for a range of projects. The team will work with the club for that to be drawn down in five or even ten instalments when the club can afford to do the work. It is not the case that the club needs to go and fundraise the entirety of the amount to draw down the entirety of the grant. We will work flexibly with the clubs so that they can draw down grants as they can afford to.
Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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Realistically, it is a significant barrier to clubs, especially when there is a new chair two years later. Clubs do not stay the same. This requirement needs to be changed to facilitate less well-off clubs in the inner city. It is a major disadvantage to them and I would urge that it be reviewed and changed. This is not to diminish the good work the sports capital grant does, and the Department has also made many positive changes around multi-use facilities, but this would be an important step that would facilitate football, boxing and other sports clubs in inner-city communities. I would appreciate it.
Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. O Lionáin. I wish to ask Mr. Hill about the investment strategy. Since its publication, what discussions has the FAI had and what progress has there been? I am conscious of the time.
Mr. Jonathan Hill:
We have engaged in particular with a wide range of TDs, Senators, the Department and senior Ministers on the genesis of the overall investment case. We will drive forward in 2024. We have just appointed the head of our Irish investment facility fund. That individual has actually started.
In 2024, his focus will be to set up the fund and begin those conversations with a range of people, both within the Government and within football. We have not mentioned our interaction with UEFA and FIFA yet in terms of their support for us, but it is also in some of the other areas Mr. McDermott has spoken to in terms of health and education.
Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Hill mentioned the IIP programme. What clubs will work with that programme? What progress has there been in that regard?
Mr. Jonathan Hill:
It is fair to say progress is slow. We have got about ten clubs that are part of the applications that were put in place before the fund was, in effect, closed down. We are awaiting a response. We are asking for a significant amount of money, or rather our clubs are asking for in excess of €90 million on their own behalf. We must wait and see whether we or they will get all of that.
Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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But Mr. Hill is positive. Are all ten clubs still interested?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Time is running out.
Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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The FAI recently turned down investment when it was approached by US investors who wanted to develop a premier league of Ireland. I do not know all the details other than what I read in the newspapers. My understanding and what I have heard from clubs and board members is that it has not been discussed at board level. The clubs feel a bit unhappy that there has been no engagement on the offer. If we want to ensure transparency and engagement with clubs, it is not a great start for them to just be told we are not interested, without engagement with the clubs or the board members.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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There are 30 seconds remaining.
Mr. Jonathan Hill:
It is difficult to respond in 30 seconds, but I will try to do it very quickly. First of all, the newspaper report was not wholly correct. The proposal that was made was in relation to an all-Ireland league and not to a revamped League of Ireland. It also did not address anything in relation to women's football or infrastructure at all.
Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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I accept all of that, but surely the clubs and the board should have been consulted on it.
Mr. Jonathan Hill:
We signed a mutual NDA in relation to it, so in theory no one was meant to be talking to anyone. What we are aware of is that the individuals involved went to speak to six of the clubs directly, we think in contravention of the NDA. All of that was explained to the board. The clubs are aware of the proposal. In short, the proposal is based on some very aggressive media projections. While we are pleased there is interest in the League of Ireland from external investors and we would welcome it moving forward, on this particular occasion we did not think it would work, primarily because we needed two parties to talk to an all-island league and the other party involved also did not want to move forward. On that occasion, we felt we should not do it. I am reasonably comfortable most of the clubs were aware of the broad proposal being made.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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What level of expertise exists on the remuneration committee and on the audit and risk committee?
Ms Liz Joyce:
I can speak to the remuneration committee. There are three board members and there is an external member who has a background in HR and remuneration. We get information presented to us, which we can then evaluate. The other members are here with me today. Niamh O'Mahony can speak for herself, but she has a strong background as a chief operations officer and she has a long experience in the supporters area. She can elaborate on that if needed. Catherine Guy is a lawyer by profession, but she also brings broad business experience to the committee. My own background is predominantly in HR, and I have worked in a variety of businesses, both private and public, over the course of many years.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Who is on the audit and risk committee?
Mr. Paul Cooke:
I am a member of it. A man known to this committee is the chair, Robert Watt. We have his extensive experience. We are the two board members and we have four external members. One is an accountant. I am an accountant as well. We have a senior internal auditor from a plc. We also have a systems specialist and we have another person from a public body.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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They speak the language of auditors so. That is what I wanted to know. That is fine.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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One of the concerns with sports capital funding is that we would be putting public money into a facility, premises or property that would end up in private hands. It has happened previously. What would Mr. Hill envisage would be the minimum limits in terms of an application qualifying for the maximum amounts available?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Hill appreciate the concern?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Something I flagged 12 or 13 years ago was the consideration of a purchasing grant. Does Mr. Hill think that is something that should be reconsidered and that clubs could get a contribution under the sports capital grant towards the purchase of premises? One of the concerns at the time within the Department is that it could lead to inflation, price gouging and people taking advantage of it. Does Mr. Hill think it is something he would consider in his discussions with the Department?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Given that the upfront capital investment to acquire land seems to be one of the big challenges I think it is something that should be revisited. What was the financial cost of the men's senior team not qualifying for Euro 2024?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Yes. I imagine there would have been a cost to not qualifying. That is the figure I am looking for.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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About €10 million. That would have been handy money.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Yes. Another outstanding matter relating to the senior team is a main sponsor. There is obviously a cost to that as long as it goes on. What is the up-to-date position in regard to that?
Mr. Jonathan Hill:
I addressed this at the AGM on Saturday and I have spoken to the media about this on a number of occasions. Obviously, it will help if we have a winning side and if the economic situation is such that brands and businesses want to invest in sport as a marketing tool, but it is a big decision for brands to take. We have a couple of ongoing conversations we hope would mean that, in 2024, we would take our sponsorship revenues, which I think were €4.8 million in 2022, to €8 million in 2023 but in excess of €10 million in 2024. I think that is good progress.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Is there no reward scheme, as such, in terms of Mr. Hill's position and salary? I refer to results, sponsorship and qualification.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Next year, 2024, Mr. Hill's salary will increase in line with the increases to Secretaries General, despite there not being a main sponsor in place or losing out on the €10 million.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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What I am saying is there is no connection to performance. There is also the reputational risk and damage to the organisation arising from this debacle. What we are being told is that none of that impacts on the salary, which will still increase in line with the rate for Secretaries General.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I acknowledge the words of the CEO at the start of the meeting. I wish to afford Mr. Barrett an opportunity to contribute. Does he feel his actions and how he performed on this entire issue warrant an apology to the wider football community, the Oireachtas and his colleagues in the FAI?
Mr. Roy Barrett:
I am very disappointed that this issue arose and, equally, I can see the damage it has caused against a background of such progress in the organisation over the period. I am deeply disappointed about it all. I can apologise but in the context that I was trying to make what I believed was a good-faith decision. People have different views on that. It is important for me, as I leave this role, that the future of the organisation is bright. The management team, board and staff have made huge progress over the past few years. I hope that over the next few years this matter can be put behind it. In any organisation, when there is such massive change, there will be plenty of hiccups, bumps in the road or mistakes. It is the same in any organisation. I firmly believe it is in a very good place now. I hope it can realise its potential.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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We are all disappointed but that sounds like a qualified apology. Is it that hard? The CEO apologised earlier. Many football supporters looking in feel very aggrieved and that an apology is warranted.
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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There was a brief discussion on the betting tax. I support that concept and the distribution of additional income among all sports, which I have said bluntly in the Seanad. I hope the Minister for Finance looks at that. He alluded to having a tax fund for sport in his budget speech. The gambling industry has destroyed people's lives, in particular the lives of players and supporters. It should pay a damn sight more back to this country.
Deputy Griffin mentioned the issue of the shirt sponsor. I asked Mr. Hill this question when we met in Abbotstown in May. The commercial team was also there. We were aware of challenges regarding big-name companies and sponsorship. At that time, I mentioned that Dublin GAA would be searching for a sponsor. It has since secured one in Staycity apartments. That deal is worth circa €1.1 million per year. A sponsorship deal with the FAI would be in excess of that. Regarding the commodity of the Irish team and selling it, Mr. Hill alluded to the performance of the senior team and the issues in the last few months. At what level is the FAI commercial team prepared to enter into an agreement, given the short supply of major sponsors?
Mr. Jonathan Hill:
On the level we would negotiate, I will not say the number as a few conversations are ongoing. My view remains the same on the national team - it is representative of a new and diverse Ireland. Knowing the players in the squad, I remain hopeful we will find a sponsor who buys into what they represent. There will be a new head coach in 2024 and 22,500 season tickets have already been sold for 2024. We have worked to make the experience at the Aviva Stadium as good as it was in the games against France, Portugal and Holland. That was the best experience anyone could have had in the Aviva Stadium this year. It is a positive story with which to go into 2024.
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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The row enveloping the development of Casement Park is a positive story that has the potential to be negative. I have raised this several times in the Seanad and at this committee. If diggers are not on site in Mach 2024, it is game over. What is Mr. Hill's position as CEO of the FAI? I praise the CEO of the IFA for his language in this respect. It is to be admired. Is Mr. Hill worried that we will not have the all-island deal? How worried is he about the current situation?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. Hill worried it will not happen?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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It is but we want an all-island deal. We do not want just the Republic-----
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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I congratulate Mr. Cooke on his election as uachtarán. He got a great vote on Saturday and is obviously very well liked. It is a great endorsement. He has sat here for three hours and is kicking off his tenure. I wish to ask him about his style and the situation that prevailed of not informing board members and the consequences. How much authority will he be able to wield to make sure that changes?
Mr. Paul Cooke:
I thank the Senator for his good wishes. As Mr. Bonner alluded to, board members should, ideally, have all the facts, which we did not. I said afterwards that I was disappointed I did not have them but that ship has sailed. All we can do is change what we do going forward. After the AGM, Tony Keohane, the new chairperson, said that it would not happen under his style. My fellow board members know me. I do not exactly hide my views. Going forward, I will ensure openness and transparency. We have moved a long way, for example, from the 2009 AGM, when I was handed the accounts of the FAI on my way into the meeting. Even at Saturday's AGM, there was questioning and we had a row but that was good. If we can continue that, it would be very good.
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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On the issue of facilities, Mr. Hill said one entity is not responsible and there have been 20 years of underinvestment. I sat in many press boxes across the League of Ireland with John Fallon from the Irish Examinerwhen he was involved with sport in Fingal and I was beside him covering that team. In fairness, we always got good wine and cheese when we went to Ferrycarrig and a fellow with blonde hair used to look after us. On the issue of facilities, Mr. Ó Lionáin said in the Department's statement that Bohemian FC was not entitled to this round of funding as it is still awaiting planning. He made a point of pointing that out. On Finn Harps FC, where is the process at and what is holding it up?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Is there something on the Department's side holding it up?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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There is €4.6 million available and waiting to be drawn down. Why has it not been drawn down?
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Does the effective sponsor mean the guarantor?
Is that what is being said in respect of the costs?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I ask Senator Cassells to conclude. Our time is up.
Shane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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How far away are we from arriving at that situation?
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank our witnesses very much. I will give the last word to the former president of the FAI, Mr. McAnaney, who had indicated he would like to say a few words.
Mr. Gerry McAnaney:
It would be remiss of me if I did not record my personal thanks to everyone at Sport Ireland for their advice, guidance and support. I also thank everyone in the Department, from now, Deputy Griffin. Way back when we won 6-3, we did not think we would end up at 97%, albeit a couple of years later. I thank the Ministers of State, Deputies Thomas Byrne and Jack Chambers, Cian Ó Lionáin and the staff, and John Kelly before. I also thank all the Deputies and Senators who support our game, especially Deputies Aodhán Ó Ríordáin and Chris Andrews, who we see around the place. I wish Paul Cooke, the rest of the board and Tony Keohane, as the incoming chair, a fair wind and the very best of luck. Go raibh míle maith agaibh.
Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. McAnaney. I also thank the members of the media for staying with us today. It is not often we get a full Gallery. It is always nice to see them. They are very welcome and I thank them for being with us today. That concludes our business. I thank our witnesses for being with us. I also thank the officials from the Department and Sport Ireland. We are always glad to be able to have these conversations and, hopefully, clear the air.