Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Members and witnesses are requested to ensure that their mobile phones are off for the duration of the meeting. Before we begin, I want to bring to witnesses' attention that witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. This means that witnesses have a full defence in any defamation action relating to anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse that privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's direction. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard. They are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that, insofar as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses giving evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts. They may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to publication by witnesses outside the proceedings held by the committee of any matters arising from those proceedings.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to utterances of members participating online in the committee meeting when their participation is from within the parliamentary precincts. Members may not participate online in a public meeting from outside the parliamentary precincts and any attempt to do so will result in the member having his or her online access removed.

The purpose of the first session today is examination of education and upskilling in the agricultural sector. In the first session, the committee will hear from representatives from Teagasc and UCD. Professor O'Mara, I am told, is stuck in traffic, which is a usual occurrence at evening time in Dublin. I welcome Dr. Anne-Marie Butler, head of education in Teagasc, and Dr. Stan Lalor, director of knowledge transfer and national adviser. From UCD, the witnesses are: Professor Frank Monahan, who is joining us virtually, who is dean of agriculture and head of UCD agriculture and food science; Dr. Sharleen O'Reilly, associate dean of teaching and learning, the school of agriculture and food science, and associate professor in nutrient and food science, joining us virtually; Professor Tommy Boland, associate dean for research, innovation and impact, school of agriculture and food science, and professor of ruminant nutrition; and Professor Karina Pierce, professor of dairy production. They are all very welcome to today's meeting.

Their opening statement has been circulated to members. I will now allow them five minutes to read their opening statement and then we will proceed to the question-and-answer sessions.

I was going to allow Teagasc to go first; however, since Professor O'Mara was delayed, we will go with UCD first. I invite Professor Boland to make his opening statement.

Professor Tommy Boland:

We welcome the opportunity to speak to the committee this evening on the role of UCD in education and upskilling in the agriculture sector.

UCD is the only Irish university to offer undergraduate degree programs spanning the entire food supply chain from farm to fork. UCD is ranked 79th globally in the QS World University Rankings for agriculture and forestry.

Within UCD, the school forms part of the college of health and agricultural sciences, together with the schools of veterinary medicine; medicine; public health; physiotherapy and sports science; and nursing and midwifery. Education for the agriculture sector is an important part of UCD's educational programmes – 7.2% of all UCD-registered undergraduates were in agriculture in 2022 – and UCD's aim is to continue to be recognised for its development of leaders to serve the agriculture and food sectors. The school has 84 academic staff and 2,600 students. There are 1992 undergraduate students, 649 of these being in China, and 388 taught Master's students, 154 PhD students and 66 certificate, diploma and occasional students.

UCD's programmes span the food chain from farm to fork, with degree specialisations in animal and crop production, animal science, crop science, agri-environmental sciences, horticulture, forestry, food and agribusiness management, dairy business, food science and human nutrition. A full list is available in table 1 of our written submission. There is an annual intake of approximately 370 students per year, mainly through the Central Applications Office. From September 2024, the school will offer a new undergraduate programme in sustainable food systems. While this degree will give graduates a specific qualification in sustainability, sustainable practices are integrated throughout our degree programmes. Similar to our undergraduate programmes, taught postgraduate programmes, including Master's, diploma and certificate programmes, and PhD programmes span the complete food chain, with programmes in environmental resource management; conservation; animal science; food, nutrition and health; food business strategy; and agricultural extension and innovation, among others.

Several areas distinguish our programmes from other offerings in this area. All undergraduate students undertake an industry-based placement in their third year, and approximately 35% of students undertake their work placement overseas. In their third year, undergraduate students have an opportunity to take a semester of study at a university overseas, including the USA, Australia, New Zealand, and Europe. Approximately 30% of students avail of this opportunity. We also welcome international students to UCD as part of this exchange programme.

Integration into the wider agrifood sector is critical to the success of our education and upskilling for that sector. Academics within the school are active in policy development and engaged in the wider sector, holding key roles in organisations such as the Agricultural Science Association, Irish Grassland Association, Nuffield Ireland and Agri Aware.

The school has recently constituted an external advisory board, chaired by Professor Nigel Scollan, to engage more directly with the sector regarding current and future challenges and the development of our offering to meet these challenges.

Practical laboratory work, fieldwork training and project work form mandatory parts of our programmes. While the main school teaching and laboratory research facilities are located on the UCD Belfield campus, the school, together with the UCD school of veterinary medicine, is also the primary user of UCD Lyons Farm, a 250-hectare farm located outside Newcastle, County Dublin. The farm supports the teaching needs of the students undertaking our BAgrSc programmes and is also the site for much of the school's research activities. The school, together with the school of biology and environmental sciences, is also the primary user of Rosemount Environmental Research Station on the Belfield campus.

Programmes offered have evolved to meet the upskilling needs of the sector and the demand for more flexible ways of learning. For example, in collaboration with Teagasc and Macra na Feirme, Skillnet MSc programmes in agricultural extension and innovation have been developed. Full-time, part-time and distance learning options are offered to students.

As part of the school's executive education offerings, stand-alone modules known as micro-credentials, aimed at employees with continuous professional development needs, are now offered in areas such as communication and agri-innovation; sustainable livestock systems; nutrition and healthy eating; and greencare.

We collaborate closely with Teagasc on some of our programmes. The BAgrSc programme in dairy business commenced in 2007. Students spend a semester of their programme at Teagasc's Moorepark facility and many students travel to New Zealand to complete this component of their degree programme.

The school of agriculture and food science plays a key role in the development and training of scientists through its research Master's and PhD student cohorts.

On future challenges, the school of agriculture and food science in UCD is unique in the demographic make-up of our student community as a higher percentage of our students originate from outside Dublin by comparison with the main UCD student cohort. The shortage of affordable student housing is a particular challenge for our student cohort, with many students commuting long distances to attend lectures.

UCD is the only university on the island with its own teaching and research farm. It provides a unique educational offering to our students and supports many of the research staff within the school. We want to maintain and grow the practical aspects of our educational programmes, to which UCD Lyons Farm is key. Unfortunately, the facilities at UCD Lyons farm have become dated in some instances and are no longer fit for purpose. A detailed plan for upgrading and replacing the teaching and laboratory spaces, animal housing and research facilities has been developed. UCD has committed significant funds for this development but it remains underfunded. UCD Lyons Farm is a key national asset in the education and upskilling of future leaders in the agrifood sector, and delivering the development plan is a priority for the school.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Is Professor O'Mara okay to rock and roll?

Professor Frank O'Mara:

Absolutely. I thank the Cathaoirleach for bearing with me. I apologise for being late. I was at an event down in Cork today and it took a little longer to get here than I thought.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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That can happen in Dublin traffic. That is no problem.

Professor Frank O'Mara:

I am thankful for the invitation to speak to this committee on Teagasc's role in education and upskilling in the agriculture sector. I will begin with an overview.

The 1998 Act establishing Teagasc provides a statutory mandate for Teagasc to provide or procure the provision of agricultural education and training. Teagasc is the primary provider of accredited further or vocational education and training for the agricultural sector. It also has a substantial role in supporting undergraduate higher education delivery for the land sector. Total annual participation levels for Teagasc further education and Teagasc-linked higher education programmes have ranged from 5,000 to 6,000 in recent years.

Teagasc also offers Quality and Qualifications Ireland-accredited and non-accredited short-duration courses on specific topics subject to demand. The Teagasc ConnectEd platform provides short-duration training opportunities for rural professionals and the wider agrifood sector.

Teagasc assigns a significant amount of resources to the education programme. Approximately 169 staff are assigned to it, and the budget cost for 2023 is €18 million. Regarding the staff cohort, Teagasc is dependent on the ability to recruit temporary contract staff to deal with the fluctuations that can arise in the demand for course enrolment places, particularly in part-time and distance education delivery.

Teagasc has a long-established education forum that acts as a consultative body for its education stakeholders. Farm organisations, such as, Macra na Feirme, the Irish Farmers' Association, the Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers Association, the Irish Countrywomen's Association, and learners, student placement hosts, universities, technological universities, private agricultural colleges, the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and Quality and Qualifications Ireland are all represented on the forum. It provides feedback and guidance to Teagasc concerning the education and training needs of future land sector entrants, the development and enhancement of Teagasc education programmes and the overall effectiveness of Teagasc education delivery.

The report Teagasc Education Vision was published in 2018 following a major consultation exercise with stakeholders. The vision underpins the Teagasc statement of strategy in regard to the organisation's education goals. The vision report underscored, in particular, the need for young trained farmer education qualifications to reflect future capability needs of the farming sector, the development of alternative pathways, such as land apprenticeships, the provision of coherent lifelong learning and professional development opportunities for farmers and the need for innovative approaches to delivery and learner engagement.

Let me address key roles in Teagasc's education and training. Our role in education and training can be classified into six areas. I will not list them but refer to them as I come to them.

The first is further education delivery. Teagasc provides further education programmes at levels 5 and 6 of the National Framework of Qualifications. Quality and Qualifications Ireland is the awarding body for these programmes. Graduates of Teagasc level 6 advanced certificate programmes and the level 6 specific purpose certificate in farming programme meet the "young trained farmer" educational requirement, often known as the green cert requirement, for schemes and measures directed at young farmers. Apart from offering agriculture programmes, Teagasc offers horticulture programmes at levels 5 and 6 in the College of Amenity Horticulture, National Botanic Gardens, and Kildalton College. There are equine programmes at Kildalton and Gurteen colleges and a forestry programme at Ballyhaise College. However, in excess of 90% of further education delivery is directed towards agriculture programmes at levels 5 and 6.

The level 5 and 6 agricultural programmes are delivered through the following options: full-time delivered via seven colleges, including three private colleges; part-time, which are delivered by colleges and across our 12 advisory regions, that is, our advisory offices, and distance, which is delivered by colleges and across our 12 advisory regions. Our full-time level 5 and level 6 courses are, in the main, directed at school leavers. In recent years, annual enrolments have been stable in the region of 1,000, which has matched the demand arising. Part-time and distance education green cert programmes cater for those who did not pursue full-time agricultural education routes on leaving school but who subsequently wish to attain a green cert education. Courses are delivered on a national basis at up to 30 locations subject to demand. In the years prior to 2014, overall annual enrolments for these programmes were typically around 400 to 500. Demand rapidly increased from 2014 onwards with exceptional enrolment spikes occurring in the period 2015 to 2017. Annual enrolments continue to be very robust for part-time and distance green cert courses and have been in the range of between 1,100 and 1,300 over recent years. Since that spike in 2014, the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine has sanctioned Teagasc recruitment of temporary contract education posts of two years, which has been important to facilitate the levels of enrolments I have indicated.

Teagasc’s second main route of delivery is through its links to higher education. Teagasc has a long-standing involvement with higher education institutions, HEIs, with the first linkage arising over 40 years ago with what is now South East Technological University, SETU. We have collaborative arrangements primarily with Munster Technological University; South East Technological University; Dundalk Institute of Technology; Atlantic Technological University; and Technological University of the Shannon. Students enrolled in undergraduate land-sector programmes of the above HEIs attend a partner Teagasc college for delivery of the farm management, farm husbandry and sustainable farming aspects of their programmes. Annual enrolments to Teagasc-linked higher education programmes stood at around 300 in 2010 but have typically exceeded 500 over recent years. Graduates of these Teagasc-linked education programmes are deemed to meet the educational qualifications pertaining to schemes and measures for young farmers.

The third route is collaboration with the universities on undergraduate degree programmes. Teagasc also has collaborative delivery arrangements on two level 8 degree programmes with University College Dublin, to which our colleagues have referred already, and with University College Cork. A significant portion of both programmes is delivered by Teagasc at Moorepark, Kildalton and Clonakilty.

The fourth route is apprenticeships. National education policy advocates the expansion of apprenticeship enrolments and creation of new apprenticeship pathways. The Teagasc education vision recommended the development of land sector apprenticeship pathways. Teagasc, on behalf of the land sector, proposed five apprenticeships: two in horticulture at level 6; two in farming with one at level 6 and one at level 7, and one in equine at level 7. The level 6 horticulture apprenticeship welcomed ten new apprentices last month while the level 6 and level 7 agriculture will welcome their first apprentices over the coming weeks.

The fifth channel is the Teagasc Walsh scholarship programme. This is Teagasc's postgraduate development programme. It primarily includes students pursuing research PhD programmes and includes a cohort of students pursuing both research and taught programmes for masters degrees. The numbers of enrolled students has been between 250 and 300 in recent years. In recent years, Teagasc has linked with Irish Aid and the Department of Foreign Affairs to provide a number of scholarships for students in developing countries. The objective of the Walsh scholarship programme is to support the training and professional development of scholars in association with Irish and international universities. UCD is the university with which we have the highest number of scholars. Walsh scholars undertaking research PhDs or masters are mainly located at the Teagasc research centres, or advisory offices in the case of specific masters programmes related to agricultural extension and innovation. The graduates of these programmes go on to find employment in a wide variety of organisations in both the public and private sectors that are connected to Ireland’s agriculture and food industry.

The last channel is education for rural professionals, which we deliver through ConnectEd. Professionals working within the agrifood sector have a significant role to play in influencing and supporting best practice at farm and food business level. In recognition of this, in 2015 Teagasc established the ConnectEd programme, which is designed to provide training, knowledge supports and networking opportunities to professionals working with farmers and food producers. To date, the programme has delivered over 6,500 training places to professionals working across the agrifood sector in Ireland including the financial services sector, input suppliers, agricultural consultants, agricultural contractors, food industry and other State agencies.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Professor O'Mara is well over time. I think he has given a very good outline. We will open up to questions from members and our guests can further elaborate on the upskilling that is going on.

Professor Tommy Boland:

I will take the questions piece by piece and I will defer to some of my colleagues on some of the questions.

On agricultural education to the wider community and those from a non-farming background, we engage with Agri Aware as part of its farm open days and farm walks and talks. We are located close to Dublin on our research farm so we bring in 600 to 700 secondary school students from schools that might not have access to farms otherwise. In some cases there would be country schools as well. It is a bit like the Senator's story of his cousins from Birmingham; there is amazement on the faces of students when they come in and see cows being milked, for example. We organise it that on the week of lambing I bring the students into the lambing shed. If a ewe is giving birth at the time I will ask the students to assist, which is met with great merriment and disgust by some of the students because they might not have any concept of the reproductive process. There is a limit in our reach as we can only take in 600 or 700 students. Teagasc would be involved in similar days with its farms.

We also work with transition year students through open weeks in the university. We bring them in to see some of the work that goes on in agricultural research and education. As generations get more removed from farming, there is a need for the sector as a whole to educate consumers. It is not a role that can fall to just Teagasc or UCD. There is a sector-wide requirement to link people back with where their food comes from, understand how food is produced and understand that the entire cost of food production is not just what the price appears as on the shelf in the supermarket. That does not represent all of the costs associated with that system.

That links in with the Senator's question on food waste. There are a number of programmes under way in the university. I am thinking in particular of the BiOrbic Bioeconomy Research Centre and part of the focus there is looking at the valorisation of food waste. There is a component around reducing food waste and then there is an effort to valorise those waste streams that are generated in food production, to use them for producing quality materials under the context of the circular economy so that there is no waste arising from the food system. I will pass over to my colleague, Professor Pierce, to address the Senator's question on the external advisory board.

Professor Karina Pierce:

With my other half I am the director of external relations in the UCD School of Agriculture and Food Science. Professor Monahan is my head of school and he tasked me with the establishment of an external advisory board and Dr. Lalor sits on that board. In the university some of us are out and about quite a bit but you can exist in a bubble so the external advisory board seeks to ensure we are well linked in with industry. There are 12 members on the board. It was only established last year and we meet a couple of times a year. We met in the university last year and we brought the group to UCD Lyons Farm. There would be representatives from the meat and dairy sectors; Teagasc; the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine; and other areas on the board. It seeks to look at areas such as graduate attributes, the employability of our graduates and what skills they need to have. We seek to ensure that from an educational perspective, and from the perspective of all the translational skills we talk about in terms of an ability to negotiate, present and represent, our graduates are the best they can be. Industry is keen to tell us about that so that has been useful for us and then we have to try to bring that back in. It is also about research, what research we are conducting, where industry sees gaps and how we can maybe address those. We have only had a couple of meetings but they have been useful and we have another meeting due before the end of the year. The Senator mentioned investment in UCD Lyons Farm, and I might pass that to Professor Monahan.

Professor Frank Monahan:

There is a plan to develop UCD Lyons Farm. The Senator visited and he can see that many of the facilities date back to the 1960s so there is a real requirement to upgrade. What we are doing at the moment is we have secured some funding from UCD to come in behind the development of the farm and we are seeking funding externally as well. We are working with the UCD Foundation to try to secure some external funding to support the project. A number of parts of the development of UCD Lyons Farm have been occurring in a piecemeal fashion. Two weeks ago we opened a new innovation hub on the farm, which is fantastic and which will enable industry and entrepreneurs to make use of the farm facilities in developing new and innovative products. The next phase of it is to extend that to a knowledge centre. We reckon the cost of that to be about €12 million. UCD is committing some of that and we are seeking the balance of it. Any support we can get for that at a Government level would be appreciated. I would be happy to answer more on that if anybody has any questions.

I will come back to the Senator's question on the need for flexible, short and small courses for farmers and others interested in upskilling. That is something we are conscious of. Many farmers will not be able to commit to doing a certificate, diploma or masters and that is one of the reasons we launched what we are calling micro credentials. They are small, bite-sized courses and our hope is that people who want to obtain continuous professional development or get upskilled in some area will enrol in these courses and get a qualification. That could subsequently build up to something bigger but that is something we are working on. We have launched about 13 of those just this year. We have also launched a number of online programmes, including an online masters in animal science. It is a certificate through to diploma to masters. We are seeing that many of our former graduates are coming back to upskill and get the most recent knowledge. I will leave it there but I am happy to answer more questions.

Professor Frank O'Mara:

I will let Dr. Lalor come in on the short courses for farmers and I will let Dr. Butler come in on the people aged under 23. I will deal with the general public and educating or raising awareness among them, which is a big challenge for us because the general public are becoming further removed from agriculture. We recognise this as something we have a role to play in. We partner with Agri Aware in its student open days and every year we are involved in Science Week. All of our centres and lots of other parts of the organisation would hold events during Science Week for their local communities. We are involved in the BT Young Scientist & Technology Exhibition and there is huge interest in students submitting agricultural projects to same. We are involved in that and we support a lot of those young scientists with their projects. We work with the Irish Agricultural Science Teachers Association as well because it touches a lot of students. Many schools teach agricultural science as a subject and we try to support the agricultural science teachers in any way we can.

On broader dissemination, we always put out a number of pieces into the "10 Things to Know About..." programme. That is a programme that RTÉ commissions and there are generally six programmes every year on any aspect of science. We would have two or three slots that cover aspects of farming and food production. That gets wide dissemination. Another similar initiative we try to leverage is the RTÉ Brainstorm series where any scientist can write an article, in layman's language, on a particular topic. RTÉ may or may not take the article but if it is a good article it will go up on its news page.

We probably submit eight or ten articles a year and some of them get very good traction. We are involved in all of those things but there is only so much we can do.

Another plank of our strategy is we try to provide information for others that might amplify it, such as the media. We have various publications. Our TResearchmagazine comes out four times a year with bite-size news articles and we sometimes get traction with those with some of the media. Likewise, we always try to get media to amplify the messages of our events, such as our open days, so that it carries out to a wider audience. It is not just the agri-media but also the general media. Communication is an area one cannot do enough in, to be honest, and it is challenging. So much communication is going out to people about various things and it is hard to get meaningful space in that mix. However, we recognise it is important for us to be involved in it.

Does Dr. Lalor wish to deal with the short courses?

Dr. Stan Lalor:

I thank Senator Daly for the question. Coming at it from the perspective of being in the farmer’s shoes, I will deal with this with my area of responsibility overlapping both education and the advisory programme in Teagasc. There are two parts to that. As the opening statement outlines, we are very involved in the education of farmers in the early stages of their farming career, but the ongoing support of farmers through the advisory service is key to that as well. One of the big areas in that is how we reach as many farmers as possible. We have between 40,000 and 45,000 farmer clients who are contracted and avail of contractual services from Teagasc, but we also have a public good remit to reach all farmers. How we do that is very important. The Senator mentioned things such as online developments in the past number of years. We are constantly focusing on things such as digital communications, use of webinars and so on. Not only farmers but the general public are facilitated by Covid in terms of accelerating the adoption of some of those and the openness to some of those technologies, and that is highly used.

The other area that is important as well is within continuing professional development, CPD, there are things one can do in terms of accredited activities. Those are good but they are high-level engagement from a farmer point of view. We are also constantly looking at the way we can reach farmers and deliver information to them, and the use of short training courses, particularly workshops. We are utilising workshops more and more. I will give two examples of that. We have a comprehensive signpost advisory programme now in operation in Teagasc that launched just under a year ago. Delivery of information to farmers through workshops is an important lever of that programme because it is an efficient way to reach high numbers of farmers. In addition, at a smaller scale but equally impactful is the DairyBeef 500 programme, which is trying to promote opportunities that may be there for some farmers with dairy beef systems. Workshops and short courses for farmers who are coming new to an enterprise like that has proven beneficial. It is much lower in numbers but we see positive engagement from the participants.

Likewise, we work closely with the policy developments around schemes. Many of the schemes now are increasingly trying to engage farmers. As a component of the schemes are programmes like agri-climate rural environment scheme, ACRES, the beef data and genomics programme, BDGP, the suckler carbon efficiency programme, SCEP, and those types of programmes. At workshops, farmers have the benefits of collective engagement but also from an efficiency of delivery point of view, those opportunities are there as well and we are taking as much advantage of those as we can.

In the long term with the CPD piece, we have an ambition to further develop the way in which a farmer can track or lay claim – whether it is accredited courses but even non-accredited courses – in terms of attendance and participation in these types of activities. We have a programme under development. At the moment, our work is focusing on trying to develop a platform that might enable the tracking of farmer participation and being able to report farmer participation. We are working on a programme that we labelled the “evolve” programme for that as well, which is trying to further develop the engagement of farmers in CPD-related activities.

There are opportunities as well for specific things that are low numbers but very impactful. A good example of that is that for a number of years we have had a specific course. It is relatively small numbers at probably a dozen participants a year. It specifically relates to farm business strategy development. Though it reaches a relatively small number, it is very impactful for farmers who are taking on big farm business enterprises. Regarding the strategy and the business development around that, with big business, high risk is something farmers need support on. We have good engagement on those types of activities as well.

Dr. Anne-Marie Butler:

To add briefly to the points Professor O’Mara raised, this year, we took an initiative to try to reach out to secondary students with a live webinar from our studio in Oak Park, which is a new development where we communicated to secondary schools across the country. In excess of 140 schools dialled in live. The objective of the session was to show the courses and facilities within Teagasc education, which will create an awareness of agriculture, horticulture, equine and forestry. It was interesting to hear back from the career guidance teachers. They acknowledged this was an area we could co-operate together more in. We are now trying to get out more to the schools. Part of that is the area of knowledge transfer and even just bringing to people’s attention where our food comes from and all that is involved in the process.

It is interesting that in our distance education students in the past number of years, there is an increasing cohort of students in those groups who are not farming on a day-to-day basis. They are working off-farm but they are feeding back to us on curriculum content, biodiversity and areas we can get stronger on with respect to content for their needs and the wider spread of knowledge transfer and where education is.

The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine kindly funded simulators and that has been a welcome development for us. There are agriculture simulators and soon to be cow and calf and injecting simulators. Those are very powerful in a non-ag setting. Our college in Clonakilty welcomed busloads of primary school children over the past year or two. It was interesting and rewarding, and the students asked great questions. Perhaps we often assume that if people are in the heart of west Cork, they have an appreciation. However, the questions showed us that we need to reach out further, and those simulators are powerful for that. We have the ploughing match and other events to reach the non-ag or non-farming background audience also.

Finally, I take the Senator’s point on looking at the part-time and distance options and that under-23 age restriction. That was raised with us even in the past couple of days. Certainly, we will take that away and we are happy to engage as we review that and understand where we can make that more accessible for people.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the speakers for coming in. It is great to see the depth of knowledge and skills that are in this sector. The work both Teagasc and UCD are doing is probably transferring itself and reflected in the success that is Irish agriculture. They are to be commended in that regard.

I will address Teagasc first. I was listening to “Morning Ireland” this morning. As a Government Deputy and a member of the Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine, it can be difficult listening some mornings, but it was heartening this morning. There was research – I cannot remember who it was – that identified that farmers were number three in offenders in terms of the carbon crisis we face. It also identified that the farming community is foremost in trying to address the challenges. I thought that was heartening. There is a perception out there that the public is down on farmers and that farmers are the root of all evil, so that was heartening. We need to capitalise on that, particularly in terms of what Teagasc is doing in education. An awful lot of young people want to come into agriculture, not necessarily farming, but that whole agri space. It is hugely popular and we can see that in the young people attending much of what Teagasc is doing.

Teagasc only listed apprenticeships at number four, so I will not take that it prioritises apprenticeships. However, the Teagasc representatives will be aware that as a Government we champion apprenticeships. In particular, they would have seen last week that the young apprentice of the year for the first time is a woman, namely, Hazel Johnston, from Longford. She went the traditional academic route. She went to college and felt she needed to get a degree and all those things, but it was not working out for her. She got a job with an foreign direct investment, FDI, company, went the apprenticeship route and we see where she is now. As a society, we were probably obsessed and parents were getting young people to college and felt that was the best way to go. No disrespect to UCD, it probably is the best route for some people but it does not work for all.

On apprenticeships, I am not sure if Dr. Butler or Professor O’Mara can explain the following. The numbers are a bit vague. Are we still in single digits for all those apprenticeships or are those just the ones that have started? How many do we have?

What plans are there to try to scale apprenticeships?

Dr. Anne-Marie Butler:

We are delighted to be able to launch the apprenticeship programme. It dates back to 2018. It is a new departure in land-based apprenticeships. To give the numbers as of today, 23 sports turf apprenticeships commenced in Kildalton College. Those apprentices are in on their two-week block release from right across the country. The Botanic Gardens welcomed ten horticulture apprentices in landscaping. That is its stream. Our level 7 course, which is the farm manager programme, will commence on 4 December. As of today, there are ten approved apprentices, but this is very much a live list, with many SOLAS authorising officers still to complete the process. On the level 6 course, the technician programme, we have seven apprentices currently. I was at a meeting in Portlaoise this morning with the stakeholder group and I learned there are eight potential apprentices in a waiting-room situation. That apprenticeship programme will commence on 13 December.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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This means there are roughly 50 people overall on the apprenticeship courses now. Is Teagasc in a position to scale these courses? What needs to be done to get more people to take these courses? What is the capacity for apprenticeships in the agricultural sector?

Dr. Anne-Marie Butler:

Per our QQI approval, there are upper limits on many of these courses - in the region of 20 apprentices, for example, on the horticulture programme. There are also minimum numbers required should demand not suffice. One of our challenges has been the staffing of the apprenticeship programmes. Our funding is very kindly coming through the Department of the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Simon Harris, SOLAS and the National Apprenticeships Office. We are also working with our colleagues in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine in respect of our available headcount. Fortunately, through the support of our senior management group, we have been able to make the required headcount available to get the apprenticeships off the ground. We are delighted to do this, but there is great potential for us to do a little bit more in terms of looking at the overall staffing required to meet demand in this area. Next year, 20 apprentices are waiting to join the sports turf programme, which shows the demand is there.

We have a great opportunity to promote these programmes better in the next couple of weeks now that we are up and running with face-to-face communication and public relations. Much work has been done in the last 12 months to get us to this point and through the wider support of SOLAS and others. It is certainly a very exciting time. I met the ten apprentices in the Botanic Gardens last week and I came away very enthused.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Good.

Dr. Anne-Marie Butler:

There was one person on the course, a little like the story we heard about earlier, who had tried a full-time academic route, but it had not been for him. There was great vibrancy in the room. Interestingly, we are already looking at how we can share the experiences of all those apprentices. I think this is a welcome initiative and it is a great opportunity for us to move into the area of higher education as well, which is a great experience for the learners and our staff.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Very good. I thank Dr. Butler. To bring Professor Boland back to one point, he said his school is 79th internationally for farm and forestry studies in universities. Given where we are in agriculture, and we always like to think we are the best in the world, I would have thought we would have been higher ranked than that. How has this position been tracking? Have we gone up or down in recent years?

Professor Tommy Boland:

The university sector here has been tracking downward in the university rankings over the years. Our newly appointed president of UCD, Professor Orla Feely, along with the presidents of the other universities, has highlighted the underfunding of the sector. Several areas influence these rankings. One is the student-staff ratio. For several years, we have seen this going in the wrong direction. It is an important factor in the rankings. We do very well, though, in terms of research and the quality of the graduates we produce.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Just when Professor Boland is on the point concerning the staff-student ratio, what would the ratio be in the best university in the world? Where is Professor Boland comparing UCD to?

Professor Tommy Boland:

I will pass that question over to the head of school, Professor Monahan, who would have these figures more readily available.

Professor Frank Monahan:

Our ratio now is about 22 students per academic. The top-ranked universities would have around 15 or 16 students per academic. As Professor Boland said, this has a major bearing on where we rank globally. The student-staff ratio, therefore, is one of the things our university and all Irish universities are trying to tackle.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Regarding funding, then, over the last five years, and having 22 students per academic, a part of the programme for Government is reducing the pupil-teacher ratio. Has this widened the ratio? How do things stand compared to five years ago?

Professor Frank Monahan:

It actually has not changed very much, to be honest. I say this because what we find is that to bring in enough funding for the school, and the university generally, we must recruit more students. Doing this does not help our ratio. This is a challenge we have. I spoke to the UCD bursar just yesterday about the actual cost of educating a graduate, which is about €12,000 annually, while we receive about €8,500 in funding. This is what the students pay and what we get from the Government. There is, therefore, a shortfall, and this means we keep taking in more students to pay the bills, as it were, and this then negatively impacts our student-staff ratio. It definitely does not help it. This is where we are now.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I am conscious of time and I wish to raise the UCD Lyons Farm as well. On international students, then, is this as significant a factor as it is in other areas?

Professor Frank Monahan:

Yes. As the Deputy may have seen from the briefing document, we have almost 700 students in China. We have three programmes operating there and we have recruited academics to teach in that country for one semester. The advantage for us is they then come back and are with us for the rest of the year. One of the challenges we have in recruiting international students in agriculture is that the Irish context makes it more challenging for non-EU students to come to us. The science, engineering and business faculties can recruit more international students than we can because the degrees in those areas are more generic and translate more easily across the globe. About 11% of our students are still non-EU, and we are trying to increase this percentage. It obviously helps us from a funding perspective and increases the diversity of the student body. Equally, about 30% of our students go abroad as well on exchanges.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry to interrupt, but I am nearly out of time. I wish to ask about the UCD Lyons Farm. I always feel that witnesses probably go away from here thinking we regard ourselves as experts on everything, but my view is that the UCD Lyons Farm should be the blueprint for the future of agriculture. This should be as much about carbon minimisation as anything else. Will Professor Monahan tell me a little about the development plan for the farm? How much is it going to cost? Is it idealistic for me to say that it is going to be a futuristic farm, very much focused on carbon minimisation, or is the school hampered by the fact that it must still have such a focus on research? Will Professor Monahan elaborate a little on the plan in this regard?

Professor Frank Monahan:

No, I do not think it is idealistic for the Deputy to have that view. It is logical that we should be and will be looking at the carbon area. This must be the focus of our research. The UCD Lyons Farm will, therefore, remain one that runs commercially, but we will also conduct research. During his visit, the Deputy saw the multispecies swards and the work going on with the dairy platform. This is all focused around the issue of sustainability and it is what all the new research projects are anchored on. We have a plan and we are excited about getting the funding to make this happen.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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How much does the cost of the plan amount to?

Professor Frank Monahan:

The figure we have is €12 million. We are hoping we can get about 50% of this funding from inside UCD. Then for the remainder, as we normally must, we will have to seek funding externally. Our funding generally comes from the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. Getting funding for the UCD Lyons Farm, therefore, is challenging in this sense, because we would probably have a better case with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. This is because there are so many competing requests for funding for higher education. We do, though, have a plan.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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If the Cathaoirleach will endure me for one more minute, the school has €6 million coming from UCD itself, and it needs another €6 million. It will probably get X million euro from the corporate world. What figure will the school then be seeking from the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science?

Professor Frank Monahan:

It is the additional €6 million that we have not secured. Any contribution to raising this amount will be welcome. We have a contribution from UCD itself. If we can get some funding from the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science-----

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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That is with the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. Professor Monahan's business case is with the Department at the moment, is it?

Professor Frank Monahan:

It is not. The Department would be aware of it. Normally, funding for third level comes from schemes such as the scheme for the promotion of research at third level institutions, and when there is a call through that scheme we can submit our plan. UCD has to come in behind that, however, and say the farm is what we should submit. We need to go through that route when there is a specific call for funding for a particular project, and that is where we would put in our plan.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Ring.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will be brief. I welcome the guests. It is great to see such fine young people involved in education and agriculture. It shows that the future is bright for Ireland. I have just a few questions. My questions will be more parochial than those asked by others.

First, we need to have a debate in this country about carbon and safe food. We always blame the farmers, give out about the farmers and criticise the farmers. I never hear them being defended. The world has never been as unsafe and we have never had as many wars in the world. We have great-quality, safe food in this country, and farmers are never really defended by the education sector. I hear professors with roles opposite to the witnesses' roles in agriculture. They are the favourite pets of RTÉ. RTÉ rolls out the same old ones all the time. It is a bit like mad cow disease and the cow they used to roll out all the time. It is the same with the professors. The same ones are rolled out all the time. They are anti-farmer and anti-rural Ireland. The time has come for the witnesses to start defending and saying that they know there is a debate about carbon and safe food and that we need to have that debate loud and clear. What can the witnesses do about that debate?

Another question I wish to ask is about staffing in the Teagasc offices. It has been an issue over the past few years. Farmers want assistance, offices have been closing over recent years and we need more staff because the Teagasc offices around the country do a good job. They are helpful to farmers, and farmers need them.

Another question I wish to ask all the witnesses is whether they have debates with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and Europe about some of the regulations being brought in. The witnesses have to educate farmers as to how these rules and regulations are being brought in. Sometimes it is easier to put them down in writing than it is to implement them on the farm. Are the witnesses doing anything about that?

Further, are they looking now at the education end of this as regards weather events? What can be done to support and help farmers? We have a changing climate. There is no question about that. What can be done as regards farmers? In many years gone by we used to have winters and summers. Now we do not know whether we have winter or summer. What are the witnesses doing about that? Are they looking at it? Can anything be done to help farmers to get into other crops to assist them in other ways of farming?

Finally, as regards Irish students, are the witnesses all happy or do we need more people coming into agriculture? We hear daily the number of people leaving, and it is getting worrying because life is being made so difficult by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and by European rules and regulations. Many farmers want to stay in farming and to work in it but they find it difficult with the rules and regulations. The witnesses are all from the education sector. One would nearly need a professor with every farmer now to be able to deal with the kind of paperwork being thrown on them daily.

Those are my questions for now.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Professor O'Mara, you might elaborate. We have heard about the UCD Lyons Farm, the project in west Cork and carbon-zero farming, to link into Deputy Ring's question.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I have just one final question, the most important one. It is about the green cert and the number of people who are looking to get green certs and cannot get onto courses. That has been a big issue over the past two or three years. What are the witnesses doing to try to make sure that more people get the green cert? There are further rules and regulations in that regard.

Professor Frank O'Mara:

I am delighted that the Deputy referred to us as young people. As the eldest on this side of the table, I will classify myself as one of the five youngsters here.

The Deputy's first point was a really important one about the whole public discourse around carbon, the role of farmers and so on. I have been in the car a good bit in recent days travelling here and there and I hear one commentator say that we need no more livestock across the world and that we need to get rid of them all, and it varies from that to a little less. We do two things. One, we participate in that debate any chance we get. We are not invited regularly into debates such as that but whenever we are we try to participate. We try to be proactive and put out stuff, whether it is on the RTÉ Brainstorm series, "10 Things to Know About..." or whatever else. When we get a chance, we try. The main thing we do in that space is support farmers to take action around their climate position in a way that allows them to reduce their emissions without affecting their profitability or their food-producing ability. We have a strategy around that. It is a strategy to support farmers. We feel we need to empower farmers. I think the biggest response will be when the emissions from agriculture have dropped. They dropped in 2022 by 1.5%. If we can keep that trend going for a couple of years, that is the kind of answer to people who say agriculture is doing nothing. We are working with as many farmers as we can around that. We are putting high priority on the measures, and there are practical measures that farmers can adopt, whether it is low-emissions fertilisers such as protected urea or replacing fertilisers altogether with clover or whatever it might be. We are putting a lot of effort into that.

We launched earlier this year the signpost advisory programme. That is where we work one to one with farmers, we let them develop a plan to reduce their emissions and we support them to implement that plan. We have signed up about 7,000 farmers to that to date since the summer. We hope to sign up 50,000 farmers to that programme over the coming years. That is our job - to work as an advisory organisation and an educational organisation to support farmers. We participate where the opportunities arise for us in the public discourse in that regard but, as I said, I think farmers are the ones who ultimately will answer that question by transforming their industry, which they are on. I am very optimistic that agriculture can deliver on its targets and I think it can be a leading sector within the country in tackling climate change and emissions. As I said, we have to do that in a way that does not compromise our ability to produce food or farmers' ability to make a profit. That is the journey we are very much on with them.

You mentioned, Chair, the farm zero C project. That is a collaboration with UCD or the SFI-funded BiOrbic centre in UCD that Professor Boland mentioned earlier. It involves us and Carbery, in west Cork, where the idea is to use all the available technologies and try to develop more. Can we make that farm a zero-carbon farm or a carbon-neutral farm? That is a very exciting project. In our own stable we work with 120 farmers right around the country, including in Mayo, where there are exemplar farmers to adopt the technologies that will reduce emissions. We call them signpost demonstration farms. They are all very good farmers and all respected in their communities. We know that farmers learn better from other farmers than from experts such as us. Those 120 farms are like the spearhead of our bigger programme to work with 50,000 farmers. There is a huge amount going on in the agriculture sector. I think it was Senator Daly who mentioned this morning a survey that recognised that and that the general public recognises that farmers are doing a lot. Programmes such as that are contributing to the perception, which is growing, that the agriculture sector is serious about tackling its emissions. We are going in the right direction but have a long way to go yet.

Dr. Anne-Marie Butler:

As regards-----

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry - just one second. There is a vote in the Dáil Chamber, so Senator Paul Daly will take the Chair and we will continue with the Senators. The Deputies will have to go to the Chamber, but the Senators will stay and continue the debate. Sorry.

Dr. Anne-Marie Butler:

As regards Deputy Ring's comments on attracting youth into the sector and retaining it, that is critical, and we all have a part to play in adding to that positivity. Even at the ploughing match this year I met many farmers who asked me, "Why would you operate courses where the challenge for the youth of today is to sustain a level of income with what are seen as the challenges that are out there?".

When we look at the colleges, there is a great enthusiasm. There is nothing like interacting with 18-, 19-, and 20-year-olds and the enthusiasm that they bring. We work very closely with our colleagues in the advisory service who run sessions on transferring the family farm. It is a very important but difficult conversation for many. We find that many of our students are not going home to farm in their own right in the first instance but we want to make sure that they are part of the transition and that it is an open conversation.

It is very important as well that our curriculum is up to date. We recently appointed a new curriculum specialist for climate. We make sure that what we bring information from advisory and research into the classroom so that the farmers of the future are equipped with those skills.

We recently took four students to Slovakia to an agro challenge competition for the first time where they competed against 17 other countries. What was intriguing coming back on the aeroplane listening to them was the enthusiasm of our sector versus what they had seen internationally. It is very important.

In response to Deputy Ring's final point, I am very happy to chat to anybody who is having a challenge getting onto courses. There is a good spread of courses across the country but I completely understand that the start dates do not always suit timelines. I am very happy to chat with anybody who has any challenges with course availability. I take the point. We will certainly look at the course dates.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will come back to Dr. Butler on that. I have to leave.

Dr. Tom Boland:

In response to the Deputy's question on people coming into agriculture, we have seen the number of agricultural science offerings in the institutes of technology, now the technological universities, and the university sector increase in recent years, yet we still see the same number of students coming into UCD, and the number entering agricultural education overall, is increasing. That is really important to service the sector. Professor O'Mara spoke about the research that is under way in Teagasc and in UCD to educate these new entrants into the agrifood sector about the sustainable practices and to highlight the good work that is being done. One of the strengths of our educational programmes in the university is that our teaching is research led, so we are conducting a teaching that will inform the education. Quite often that needs to be years or decades ahead of the actual policy. I remember Professor O'Mara in UCD 20 years ago. He was still a young fellow at that stage and he was working on methane emissions. It was probably unheard of at the time, but now it is the hot topic of conversation around livestock production in the country. In the research sector and the university sector, we need to plan ahead. Quite often, it is difficult to get the funds for that forward planning. At the moment, research is being conducted around adaptation to weather events, as the Deputy highlighted. How can we practise agriculture in a way that is resilient to enhanced rainfall or drought conditions? We have probably seen temporary droughts in four of the last five years, which can have serious impacts on the sustainability and the profitability of our dairy, beef, and sheep sectors. As an educational provider and a research conductor we need to be planning ahead all the time.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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First, I thank the witnesses for coming in. I thank Professor O'Mara for his innovative ideas. I contacted him two weeks ago. In fairness, he and Dr. Laurence Shalloo were quick about getting on the ball.

I have a question for Teagasc. I am watching youngsters in national schools and secondary schools who are nearly brainwashed before we can get them because of how agriculture is being depicted. A picture of a cow is now nearly a bad thing. Is there any tie-up with the Department of Education to give a balance in terms of what we need to teach youngsters? At the end of the day every youngster needs three meals. Is there any tie-up being done with schools on research to show how things are being done better and that farmers are required in the world? I remember one time if you had a big tractor you would have 20 youngsters running down the road trying to drive it. If you drive down the road in a brand new tractor now, they go into their houses because they do not want to look at it. That is the reality. There is no point in saying it is not. I am watching the numbers going into farming. We need to keep people here. To build rural Ireland and keep it sustainable we must encourage youngsters. In fairness, over the past seven or eight years, there are plenty of jobs even for small farmers. For us in the 1980s, it was a case of getting the boat or setting up your own business. In fairness, now there are plenty of jobs as well as farming. There is an opportunity to do agricultural science and become a planner or go to the likes of UCD to study veterinary medicine. One can even do mechanics through the courses that are being offered around the country. The positive messaging about farming and agriculture must start to come forward. As Deputy Rings says, the worse the story, the better George Lee likes it. It looks every night as if the world is going to nearly end. It is agriculture, agriculture, agriculture. We see the same Friesian cow every time we look at the television. It is getting to farmers. There is no point in saying it is not. It is getting to them and they are nearly telling their youngsters that they do not know if there is a future in agriculture. There is uncertainty as well because decisions are not being made. If a young farmer is putting up a shed, going into dairy farming, or into sucklers or sheep, if he or she is borrowing money, he or she needs to know that there is a clear pathway for the next five, seven or ten years. It is fine if you plant a hectare of trees, but at least you should not be wondering what is coming next January: if a cow is going to be allowed to produce 120 kg methane or nitrates will be brought down to 200 kg N/ha. Do the witnesses understand the point I make? What can they do to try to get that message brought forward and to show respect? If farmers stop producing food, the world will starve. It is as simple as that.

I have another question for the witnesses from UCD. I know UCD was involved with Dowth farm. It did a lot of research on multispecies grasses out there. What happens now? Is UCD still involved? I think the National Parks and Wildlife Service bought it. Perhaps the witnesses do not know. If they do not know they can come back to me. What happened to the research that was being done? The committee went out there and we met great people who were doing a lot of research. They were able to give us all the statistics. As Professor O'Mara said earlier, there was great research being done on possible ways to reduce fertiliser. It needs to be done over so many years to see when certain species will die out, what will last longest, and the productivity of the cattle or sheep that was on the land. Where do the witnesses from UCD stand on that at the moment?

There was talk about education. If a person does three or four years of study in agricultural science or whatever else and he or she goes on to do a master's degree, but my understanding is that it is pretty difficult for ordinary people to do given the amount of money needed. Sponsorship is required to try to make it feasible. It is not that simple to be able to do. Could the witnesses comment on those questions first please?

Professor Frank O'Mara:

I thank Deputy Fitzmaurice. I am glad we were able to assist him with that other matter he mentioned. We do not have any formal tie-up with the Department of Education in terms of the education programme or the primary curriculum in schools. We do link with the Irish Agricultural Science Teachers Association on the curriculum for the leaving certificate agricultural science course, as I am sure UCD does. We certainly have an input there. There is a lot of project work now in regard to the leaving certificate agricultural science course. We have input into the materials that might be used for projects. In that course in general we are teaching people who have an interest or background in agriculture. For the generality of students, in particular at primary school, there is no formal tie-up, but, as Dr. Butler mentioned, we do quite a bit with schools through Agri Aware, our own agricultural colleges, or events such Science Week, which is going on this week. We try to get out to schools or link with them.

I will hand over to Dr. Butler in a second. She might mention the webinar we did that lots of schools tuned into. We have a soft impact on the school curriculum. We are not formally consulted about it. We have a lot to offer in terms of the science around agriculture, our food, where it comes from and all that. We are very happy to make that available and to input wherever we get a chance.

The Deputy talked about the uncertainty around farming now and the worry that many farmers have about decisions coming down the line. It is certainly a tough time with the regulations, in particular those around the environment and how they are going to impact on farmers. Part of our job is to make it clear to farmers what they actually mean. We recently had the change in the nitrate derogation limit to 220 kg N/ha. Obviously, there was a lot of discussion publicly around that and we provided a lot of reports that helped to clarify that debate. At the end of the day, one of the key jobs we have is to work with the 2,000-odd individual farmers that are affected. They want to know what it means for their farms and how they can best chart a course through the new regulation. I agree with the Deputy that there is a lot of uncertainty for farmers. They are wondering now if the 220 kg N/ha limit will be impacted when the nitrates derogation is reviewed in two years' time. We hear all about carbon farming and all of this. There is a lot to be done in terms of trying to communicate clearly to farmers around that, and we do a lot in that space. We have the signpost programme, as I mentioned earlier. It is focused on climate change but it also deals with water quality. I think we have pretty good reach to farmers on that. Certainly, the awareness is building up around it. Often, once farmers are a bit more aware of things and of what they can do, the fear goes out of it for them to some extent. If they can see that there is a solution or there is way for them to deal with the 220 kg N/ha limit, it does help. It is a huge job that our advisers, who have one-to-one contact with farmers, do. Perhaps Dr. Butler wants to come in.

Dr. Anne-Marie Butler:

Recently, we had an event that looked at 50 years of EU membership and 50 years of agricultural education. Looking back, all the students then were going home to farm. What we have found in the past couple of years is that we are starting to see a small but a good increase in students who are coming to us who are not from farms. What we have been learning is that we need to get a bit better at telling people they do not need to come from a farm to study agriculture. Many worry about not owning land, and trying to get on that ladder is obviously a challenge in itself. Certainly, we are trying to do more there. As we mentioned, we have a new initiative whereby we are reaching out to the career guidance teachers and holding live webinars, streaming live and showing the colleges and the courses. We are showing what a career in agriculture is and what agriculture does for the community at large. It is a huge educational piece that perhaps we have all taken for granted over the years. I live in Kilkenny and I had a conversation recently with a woman who told me her son did not know where eggs come from. That is in rural Kilkenny. She was very serious in telling me about it. As head of education, I think we have a role to play in all of those areas. I noted the Deputy mentioned showing respect. It is very important for all of us that none of us takes that for granted because it is a very challenging time. From an education perspective, we should not assume everybody coming in to us is from a farm and what they can offer to the sector at large.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Staying on education, I looked at the numbers going back over the years and there were some years when there were low numbers. I think there were 1,700 or 1,800 doing the likes of the green certificate. What does that equate to down the road in farming? Are we holding our own? Dr. Butler mentioned the 50 years of EU membership. The numbers of farmers have gone backwards since we joined. I think we had 300,000 farmers at one stage and we have roughly 130,000 now. The EU is not all guns and roses.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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There are problems. In the line of young farmers, do we even hold what we had? I look at the age of farmers on the suckler and dairy side of it. The release of farms is a problem. There is no point in saying it is not. What do we need to be doing to keep that figure up? In our local club at home, I watch how many youngsters are knocking around and born every year to see if we can keep the school numbers up and attract more people in. That is what you do in communities. How do the Teagasc graphs look?

Dr. Anne-Marie Butler:

I would describe the graphs as stable. Typically, we have in the region of around 1,000 full-time students. The Deputy is completely right that the majority of students are not going home to farm straight away after two years. They are typically aged 19 or 20. We are trying to start conversations with people on transferring land. We do not want people going home causing arguments. We are just planting the seed. Many will do their placements abroad, and perhaps spend time in New Zealand or the UK. The figure of 1,000 is pretty stable, but as I said, a significant proportion are not going home to farm in the first instance.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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My theory is that people farm for roughly 50 years. With that 1,000, it gives us 50,000. We have 130,000 farmers. What does the graph show? Are we in trouble?

Dr. Stan Lalor:

I might just come in there on the numbers. Dr. Butler has told us that across the board, there are around 100,000 in full-time education in the system at any one time. Looking across the board at the overall intake, we have 130,000 farmers with herd numbers in the country at the moment. Looking at those over a 40-year timescale, which is probably longer than it should be but shorter than it really is, we need about 3,000 spaces every year in terms of capacity on a 40-year turnover at steady-state numbers. That is where the numbers are at the moment. Taking not just full-time but also distance and part-time learning on board-----

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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We have the ETBs doing it as well.

Dr. Stan Lalor:

-----we would be breaking into the 2,000. We are probably doing north of 80% of the overall delivery of the vocational level qualification. There is probably an intake of 300 or 400 across the country into degree courses. A lot of those are feeding industry and a relatively small number come back into the farming pool. For round numbers on capacity in the system, we need in the order of 3,000 people coming into the system every year, looking at it from a lifetime of farming perspective.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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What are the figures?

Dr. Stan Lalor:

We would have north of 2,000 if we include part-time, distance and full-time students across all the streams. We are probably not far off that level. The members have seen the fluctuations over the past year. We were way behind that ten to 15 years ago. We saw a spike post 2015, when a lot of the new schemes that were introduced with the CAP cycle in 2015 probably put an emphasis on training that was never there before. Certainly, there was a lot of catching-up to be done for farmers who had perhaps let agricultural training slip. At the moment, we are in a much more stable position.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I think the message needs to be given out, and in fairness it would be very easy for me to say different in opposition, that there are a lot of good incentives for young farmers at the moment, between the young farmer's grant and the entitlements they will get. I think we need to be clear on that. In my opinion, we need to send out the message. When I started off, there was damn all. We did the courses and we had to have one labour unit and we were not able to do it at the time. Nowadays, there is a lot there for young farmers. We need to paint a picture as well. There is an idea that if you have 40, 50, or 60 acres, farming is nearly a waste of time. If you have the 50 or 60 acres and draw in the young farmer, get the entitlements, the areas of natural constraint scheme and go into an environmental scheme, along with the bit of farming - you do not have to be killing yourself - and your local job, you can be very sustainable in a local area. The message needs to go out to youngsters that they do not need this big money. If they do, it is in Dublin because it is a bit cheaper to build a house down the country.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I am sorry for interrupting but my general-----

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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My general thinking would be that we have the converted who go into agricultural science and who go to the ploughing championships because they are from a farming background, generally. They are the youngsters who are mad to go on a bus from school to the championships but we need to get to the youngsters who are not doing agricultural science in school but are doing art or something else. They need to get the message that things are not all bad in agriculture. That is what I am trying to get at.

Professor Frank O'Mara:

I just want to make a very brief comment. Dr. Lalor talked about that the fact that there are well over 2,000 students coming through our own system but, as the Deputy said, a lot of them see their future in farming as part time. The people who are on the distance education course with us - and there are big numbers on that course - are already in full-time jobs somewhere and a lot of those who are studying with us part-time are also working somewhere and that is how they see their farming future. That is the reality of farming now. It is harder and harder to make a full-time living out of it so people are going down the part-time route. That is not necessarily a bad thing.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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That is not such a bad thing.

Professor Frank O'Mara:

From our point of view, it is an important that they farm well, even if they are farming part time.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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I welcome all the witnesses. It is great to have them here. I want to start with the Signpost programme that Professor O'Mara mentioned. There are 21 advisers working on that programme. So far, 7,000 farmers have been involved in it and Teagasc is hoping to reach up to 50,000. There are approximately 130,000 farmers in Ireland. How many advisers are required to reach the target of 50,000 and how many are required to reach the entire farming population of 130,000? We have seen a reduction in our carbon footprint through gases in 2022. This is the biggest game in town and probably the most important programme that Teagasc is rolling out. How much support and how many advisers does Teagasc need?

Professor Frank O'Mara:

I thank the Senator for his question. We are reaching out to all farmers about things they can do around greenhouse gas emissions. We certainly want to make an individual plan for any farmer that is up for it and to help her or him to implement that plan but that does not mean that unless a farmer does that, we will not talk to him or her about trying to reduce emissions. The 50,000 farmers that we want to take into this programme will have an individualised, customised plan. Our plan is to take in 10,000 per year over five years and support them for three years after that to implement the plan. We are on target to take in 10,000 in our first year and the 21 advisers that we have doing that job are well fit to take in 10,000 per year. Our issue will be with the follow-up over the subsequent three years. Ideally we would like another 20 to 30 advisers doing that in addition to our current cohort of advisers. It is not like-----

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Teagasc is at 21 advisers at the moment. Does Professor O'Mara reckon that 50 advisers would be an appropriate figure?

Professor Frank O'Mara:

Yes, somewhere around that. The point I am trying to make is that our general advisers will be doing the a lot of the work. We have 250 front-line advisers who have a client list and all of those will be engaged in supporting farmers around the actions in their plans. It is a whole-of-organisation effort. The messages around climate are generally around good farming practices anyway. They are the same messages we would be giving to people just to farm well.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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It is true that the Signpost programme should involve all farmers, whether they are clients of Teagasc. In that sense, it is a totally different model to the client-based one that Teagasc generally uses. It is a unique model in that sense and it takes into consideration people who would use a private adviser as well. What level of advisers is required on the ground to deliver it, given the uniqueness of the course?

Professor Frank O'Mara:

In terms of farmers who have a private consultant to do their schemes work, we do not want to be cutting across those consultants and trying to steal their clients. We would very much like to involve them. Farmers will come to us and make the plan and we would hope that their consultant would then engage with them in the implementation of that plan. We are there to help. Some of the things we would be doing with farmers who develop a plan would include things like introducing clover. We will support farmers with that by telling them there is a farm walk on clover in their area next week that they should go along to, that there is a clover group that they should join and so on. That kind of activity will be available to clients or non-clients and we will direct them towards that.

In terms of the 50,000 farmers, we are not going to pick the biggest farmers but they are the ones that are probably going to come. The 50,000 biggest farmers are responsible for approximately 85% of the emissions so hopefully we will reach out to those who have the most actions to take. It is a big challenge to get 50,000 farmers into the programme. We are afraid that some day we will open the door and there will be nobody else looking to come in and do the programme but for the moment there is very good engagement. We are working through discussion groups and the ACRES courses, and farmers are up for the challenge. They want to feel that they are doing something and the Signpost programme will give them visibility in the sense of being able to say that they have a plan. We certainly hope to add another 20 or 30 advisers over the next two years to support implementation. Perhaps Dr. Lalor has something to add on this.

Dr. Stan Lalor:

Professor O'Mara have summed it up well. What we are trying to achieve with the Signpost programme is to address what agriculture needs to do to move on the climate issue but it is only one part of the overall sustainability piece. It is a part of the environmental piece, which is part of the overall picture that includes the economic and social aspects as well. That is an objective of the entirety of our advisory service and our activities but we are conscious that to enable, accelerate and support farmers, we need additional support. Senator Lombard is correct that there are 21 advisers with a specific role around climate but there are additional staff who have gone into the advisory service who will help the overall effort in terms of climate. For example, we have six advisers who are specifically oriented towards organic systems, which is one of the actions in our climate action plan. There are also roles in specialist support and curriculum development support.

On foot of feedback from stakeholders, one of things we do not want is a relatively small cohort of Teagasc resources focused on climate, with nobody else fully engaged on it. We are working very hard to integrate this as much as possible into the overall service we provide. In terms of the additional resources we employed recently, we engaged people for a specific climate role who specialised in that area but we want to integrate that across all of our advisory services and in doing so, we will maximise our reach.

Regarding the thought process being the signpost advisory programme as originally formulated, we are on target to have 7,000 farmers on board between now and year's end. The target is 50,000 between now and 2030. It is a three-year participation programme. Even though 50,000 is the overall target, the ambition is for approximately 30,000 active participants at one time and for them to be self-sufficient after three years.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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I am sorry, but I must cut across Dr. Lalor and ask my next question. It is for the same team, and I presume Dr. Lalor will take it. The knowledge transfer programme was probably one of the most significant programmes that Teagasc rolled out in the past decade. It changed how Teagasc got information out to the farming community. I am seeking a few indications regarding it, though. How many female-only groups are participating? How does Teagasc propose to deal and work with the women who want to be involved in knowledge transfer? Is the requirement to be a herd keeper a barrier to people who want to be part of the programme? I have encountered many more than ten people, particularly females, who want to participate in the knowledge transfer scheme but, because they are not the herd keepers, they are effectively ruled out of it. How is the scheme working, what can be done to improve it and what should be done to ensure that female participation in the scheme can be moved forward?

Dr. Stan Lalor:

I am happy to speak to that. The knowledge transfer programme is in the process of being set up and will be operational in January. The advisers who are to engage on it were registered this summer and the applications, which set out the terms and conditions, for getting groups set up on the programme are just out.

Female participation is a matter that we have been active on over the past couple of years. There has been a great deal of policy movement regarding female participation across the sector and various schemes, for example, the targeted agriculture modernisation scheme, TAMS, have given specific support to females by providing preferential access to funding, incentives and so forth. Irrespective of the new knowledge transfer programme, we have been making ourselves available to establish female-only knowledge transfer groups. I do not have the exact figures, but the number is somewhere in the region of ten to 15.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Dr. Lalor might forward the exact number in due course.

Dr. Stan Lalor:

We will dig that out. When we discuss this matter with people, there are mixed feelings about it. We have many groups with mixed participation. They are predominantly male, but that is not to say that there are not groups with females. There are a number of female-only groups. A small number have been running a long time, but more have now been established. The positive feedback we have received indicates they are working well.

Based on the feedback from adviser level, the discussion group model has been an effective addition to the knowledge transfer advisory tools that have been available over the past 15 to 20 years. The policy that supports this is positive and has to be commended. The constant fear is whether the funding criteria get in the way of the operational benefits to the groups. It is a challenge. Criteria have to be in place to justify payments, but we must also have a mind to what is feasible.

We have many registered advisers who can facilitate groups and there is a great deal of activity happening regionally in terms of scoping out the potential for groups. Irrespective of the knowledge transfer group scheme, though, we continue to be committed to, and positively disposed towards, maximising the advisory work we do through discussion groups. Within our existing groups, we are actively promoting the new programme as a benefit to farmers. The response has been mixed. Some groups bite and say it is an opportunity to access funding while other groups whose members appreciate the groups’ value irrespective of funding say that their groups are functioning well and they do not want to interfere with that.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Is the herd keeper issue becoming a barrier to the scheme, particularly for younger people and females?

Dr. Stan Lalor:

That can be one of the administrative barriers that get in the way, with one group trying to comply with the terms and conditions of a group scheme while another is free to operate in its own right.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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That is a barrier.

Dr. Stan Lalor:

Among other things. There are barriers in terms of a fixed number of meetings, differential payments relating to attendance, etc. The Department has taken on board a great deal of feedback about the administrative barriers to the current scheme. The scheme’s administrative side is now more flexible and has addressed many elements that were major issues previously. However, some barriers will remain in place. Groups will come on board, but the scheme will not be for everyone.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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I am under time pressure, but I have one more question. I wish to discuss the apprenticeship programme that is being rolled out to level 6 and level 7 applicants. It crosses a range of schemes from sportsturf to farm management and from farm technicians to horticulture. This is an important programme that involves more Departments than just the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and it helps to get people involved in funding an important part of agriculture. I wish to ask Professor O’Mara about the recruitment being undertaken on his side of the house to roll out the programme. Have the 12 temporary self-funded posts been approved by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine yet so that this important programme, which is another gateway to agriculture, can be rolled out? Does Teagasc have these people on the ground and is the programme up and running?

Professor Frank O'Mara:

The apprenticeship programme is a great initiative, one that we are very pleased with and committed to. It will be there in addition to our current education programmes for young farmers. I will ask Dr. Butler to speak about the roll-out in a moment, and she can probably deal with the staffing issue in more detail. We have enough staff in place to get the programmes up and running. Some of them have started – Dr. Butler will outline those in a minute – and others are due to get started in the next few weeks. We hope to get additional posts sanctioned by the Department. That will be important as the programme ramps up. We will take in one cohort of apprentices this year. It is a two-year programme. We will be due to take in a second cohort next year, and then we will be up to full speed with a year 1 and a year 2. It will take a while to ramp up to full activity. We will need additional staff by the time we start taking in a second cohort of apprentices. Dr. Butler will provide more detail on where we are now and what staffing we have in place.

Dr. Anne-Marie Butler:

Our sportsturf course commenced in Kildalton Agricultural College this Monday. There are 23 very eager apprentices on it, which is great to see. Ten horticulture apprentices commenced in the Botanic Gardens approximately three weeks ago and are focusing on landscaping. The level 6 agriculture apprenticeship is for farm technicians. It will commence on 13 December and be based in Clonakilty Agricultural College. As of yesterday evening, we had seven approved apprentices, but I was at a stakeholder meeting this morning and there was considerable interest, particularly from the pig sector.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Good.

Dr. Anne-Marie Butler:

There is great demand, which is good to see. The level 7 farm manager apprenticeship is due to commence on 4 December. It will be based out of Kildalton. Currently, it is working to a list of ten apprentices, but there are many people in the pipeline.

It is great to be up and running. I told one of the Senator’s colleagues about how I was in the Botanic Gardens to meet the ten apprentices. Their enthusiasm is a great reminder of what we do and why we do it.

Five additional staffing positions were made available to Teagasc’s headcount in recent weeks. They are working through our HR system in terms of being advertised and have given us the bandwidth to commence. As Professor O’Mara said, though, there is more to be done in this regard. We have seen a large increase in demand through inquiries now that we are operational. It is a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation as we get going.

It is a welcome initiative and our first move into higher education, which is welcome for us.

Professor Tommy Boland:

I am never sorry not to be asked questions, so there is no need to apologise. The Deputy addressed a question to us directly about the Dowth farm in County Meath and its relationship with UCD. That multispecies work sprung from a long-standing relationship between Devenish and UCD. They have been supporting us in a number of activities in past years. That came from work we have been doing in the university for almost 15 years. That work was funded through a European project. Research is an expensive business and we often need external funding to do it. That project is coming to an end. Five PhD students are completing their theses at the moment. My understanding is that there has been no contact between the new owners of the farm and ourselves about the continuation or otherwise of that work in Dowth.

That work is ongoing at Lyons Farm, which some of the committee members have visited. I know similar work is ongoing in the Teagasc centres. The multispecies work is forming an important part of what we are doing to address the challenges facing the sector.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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I will keep this short because I realise the witnesses have been here a while. Speaking as somebody from a farming background, it is heartening to sit here and listen to people who genuinely have the interests of farming at heart. I think my colleagues would say the same. As Deputies Fitzmaurice and Ring said earlier, there has been a lot of harshness in the public arena in recent years towards farming. Like the Deputies, I get annoyed when I see debates on national television and radio stations, which clearly and unfairly point fingers at the farming community. As it causes quite a lot of anxiety in the farming community, this is an important discussion. I say to the national media that I hope from here on, they will have people like the witnesses on when they want professors on, and have balanced debates. A lot of times at the weekend I listen to this and I get furious. I tell myself I am going to send an email and ring in but then I do not do it. I feel it is shocking. I say this because if you go back a number of years, the farming community wants to do the right thing for the environment. If you go back many years ago, to the first rural environment protection scheme, REPS, there was more than 90% involvement by the farming community. There are some problems with ACRES but at least the scheme will be adopted. The Minister and the Government are trying to ensure as many farmers as possible can get in on it. I believe farmers will adopt ACRES too. They want to do that, and they are concerned about the environment.

A lot of young people approach me to tell me they would like to go into farming, stick with it and make a living out of it. I have hope for the future, because I do not think we should lose sight of the fact that in our current balance of payments, looking back at last year, there was €15.5 billion of agri-exports. The vast bulk of agricultural materials produced in this country are exported, so there is hope there. Like many of my colleagues I am concerned about certainty for the future and trying to eliminate red tape. Red tape is a huge issue for farmers. There are a lot of schemes and the schemes are good. I do not know what the witnesses' opinions are on the possibility that we could condense the schemes together.

Our horticultural sector almost collapsed. It is good to hear Dr. Butler and Professor O'Mara talk about apprenticeships coming in, particularly on the landscaping side. The whole area of what Ireland could do in horticulture needs to be tackled. We spent €80 million last year on imported apples. The best country in the world in which to produce cooking apples is Ireland, and we are importing €80 million worth of them. I also know that the glasshouse industrial mode is expensive, and heating is a huge problem, but it is virtually impossible to get an Irish tomato. We are importing more and more vegetables that we can produce in this country. I have raised this previously, as the Chair can confirm. That is an area we need to tackle. I often tell the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, Deputy Eamon Ryan, that if he is serious about carbon count, it would be wise to subsidise Irish farmers to grow the stuff we can at home in order that we would not have to import it by bringing in massive cargos. They do enormous damage. If you look at ships and planes and so on, we are told the damage is done. Would it not make a lot of sense to have a scheme to subsidise Irish people in horticulture to produce more of our own?

Blueberries is another crop. We are all into good fruits and good food. The blueberry is a massively popular fruit in this country. We are told it is a good antioxidant. It grew perfectly on Irish bogs. I guarantee that if you go into a shop tomorrow morning and look at the labels you will see Chile, Brazil and Peru. Imagine all of that coming from South America. People will say it is never going to happen, but we can make it happen and we should make it happen. It perfectly fits into the environmental arguments. If you want to do more for the planet and to really be good in respect of the carbon count, this is what you do. It would be well worth a Government initiative to subsidise horticultural farmers to do that. I have a horticultural background and it is what I trained in. It annoys me how bad we have become at paying heed to what is coming in from abroad, which is doing enormous damage to the environmental cause. I am throwing that out there. The witnesses can tell me if they think it is a ridiculous argument. They can tell me if we should tackle it. I have always believed in fighting for things and making them happen. There is a huge opportunity for more people to get involved in horticulture. I thank the witnesses for their presentation.

Professor Frank O'Mara:

I thank the Senator for this opening comments. I can assure him we would be happy to engage in media debates were anyone to come looking for us.

Ireland has a small horticultural sector and it is really competitive. There is only a small number of growers for each crop and it is a tough business to continue making a living in. However, we think there are opportunities. Apples is one area we have identified where Ireland should have a good opportunity. Approximately one year ago, we appointed a new researcher to develop an apple research programme. For many years we had none. We have just established a new research orchard. I will not say it is easy to do research but that is the starting point and getting a competitive industry going will take a lot of development work and support. As the Senator said, €80 million for one crop is a lot of money. If there are opportunities for Irish growers, we should support them to take that on. He also mentioned blueberries and so on. There are lots of crops. One of the challenges for us is that it requires different expertise to support every crop. That is the challenge and we cannot do everything at the one time, but we are seeing if we can make that happen. That is our job as the agriculture and food development authority. We are all about trying to develop sectors, so that is of great interest to us.

On red tape and schemes, Dr. Lalor may be able to say more about how many schemes we are supporting currently. It is a lot.

Dr. Stan Lalor:

We wholeheartedly welcome any simplification, because it is not just a challenge for farmers, it is a challenger for advisers supporting them. In what is needed by the sector and by clients, we are aware of the dependency the value of the schemes add for farm income and the objectives of what various schemes are trying to achieve. The Senator mentioned ACRES and others.

There are technical and environmental benefits and so on. Having said that, we in the advisory service are conscious that it does not take over the entirety of our resources. The best advice we can give on technical and business development to support farm viability, social sustainability and so on is equally important. We are focusing on the balance as we develop the advisory service.

We are proactively engaged not just with those in the Department. We are also consciously working with others involved in schemes. There is a large cohort of private advisers delivering scheme work as well. That is something in which I am personally invested. I am committed to developing the collaboration of the Department across all of the advisory actors in the system, including not only with Teagasc but also with the private schemes, to facilitate as far as possible active dialogue and collaboration to make the work around delivering important income and income streams to farmers. We want to make that as simple and impactful as possible. That is something we are on board with. We would be highly supportive of anything that can be done in that regard.

Professor Tommy Boland:

I thank the Senator for his positive comments. We have a passion for agriculture in the school of agriculture and food science in UCD. We have a passion for supporting that sector. I want to pick up on the Senator's point about the anxiety for farmers. One of my colleagues, Dr. Tomás Russell, conducted a wonderful, but very worrying, piece of research that showed the farming community has the highest rate of suicidal ideation among all cohorts of the economy. One of the big drivers of that was the negative perception of the public, the pressures around climate change and the blame being placed on farmers for climate change. Unfortunately, when we see agriculture in the media, quite often it is an instance of bad practice that is being used to reflect normal practice when that is not the case. International bad practice is sometimes used as a barometer for what happens in Ireland. I am glad that some of our research work was featured on RTÉ news this year. Perhaps it was a slow news day but we had a positive news story about multispecies sward on the "Six One News" and the "Nine O'Clock News". Like our colleagues in Teagasc, we are happy to welcome the opportunity to engage in those debates where the offer is made.

Professor Frank Monahan:

I can take that question on the vet school. It does not concern us directly in our school. However, I am aware that UCD, with other institutions, has put in a proposal to increase the number of veterinary places, as has been the case for medicine and nursing. UCD is awaiting the outcome of the deliberations on the proposal but the submission has been made. At this point, people are waiting to see the outcome of the deliberations of the group that is evaluating the various bids.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I am not sure if my questions were asked while I was out of the meeting.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Is there a timeframe for the delivery of the UCD Lyons Farm project? I know the witnesses have also been asked about funding. Is there any European funding available?

Professor Frank Monahan:

From a European perspective, I think it would be challenging. We are in the process of appointing an architect. We have a set of plans already but they have to be updated. The architect will come up with the final design. We will then go to planning and building. The "A" match is to begin building in 2025 and, I hope, to open a new facility by 2026. In 2026, we will be celebrating 100 years of the faculty at UCD. That is the ambition at the moment. It is moving along. We always have to get the rest of the funding but we are progressing even now. The plan is to have the major infrastructural piece done by 2026. That will include new laboratories and new facilities for teaching for our agriculture and veterinary students.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Professor Monahan raised the issue of student accommodation. Has UCD put any proposals to the Department? Have there been any specific requests for affordable student accommodation?

Professor Frank Monahan:

There is a plan to build further accommodation. At the moment, we have more than 4,000 student beds on campus. The ambition is to increase that number to 5,500. There was a plan to build an additional 1,250 beds but it is on hold because of the increase in the cost of building and the rent cap. A proposal has gone to the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science to move this on and facilitate UCD in adding those 1,250 beds on campus. That would improve things dramatically. We understand the proposal is under consideration at the moment. It would be very helpful if that could happen.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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The programme spans a wide range from farm to fork. How much emphasis does the programme put on food loss and food waste?

Professor Frank Monahan:

We are launching a new degree, starting in the 2023-24 term, on sustainable food systems. While food waste and circularity are dealt with in our food science programme at the moment, the new degree programme on sustainable food systems aligns with the Food Vision 2030 document and the plans for Irish agriculture. Food waste will be very much a part of that course. It will also deal with circularity and the efficient and sustainable use of food, and will even include sustainable nutrition.

Dr. Sharleen O'Reilly:

I want to highlight that in terms of the food system and the circularity of the system that exists, we have public health theories that we bring out to people in the wider community to get people involved in understanding how the food system interacts and how, as we mentioned earlier, we can improve the valorisation of food waste that comes from food production systems to really get a growing understanding in the community around how much we can add value in the food and agriculture systems through doing research and improving practice.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I have a couple of quick questions about staff. Professor O'Mara said that 169 staff are assigned to the education programme. How many of them are full time? What is the average length of the temporary contracts given to part-time staff? Does Teagasc feel these staffing arrangements are sufficient to deliver comprehensive programmes?

Dr. Anne-Marie Butler:

Of the 169 mentioned, approximately 139 are permanent staff in colleges and regions across the country. The duration of employment for the temporary staff is typically a two-year contract, which comes with an approval from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. It is a 24-month contract. The Deputy also asked a third question as to whether we think that is sufficient.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Is it a chicken-and-egg situation?

Dr. Anne-Marie Butler:

There is a beauty to vocational training. We spoke earlier about student-to-staff ratios in higher education. Ideally, we would want in or around 12 students per teacher in vocational training.

Students spend 50% of their time in the classroom and 50% out in tunnels, in fields or on horses. There is always that trade-off. We obviously do not want to turn away students. We spoke earlier to the Deputy about attracting people into the industry. If people wanted to add more, I gladly would accept. Even on apprenticeships, it is about making sure students are equipped with the skills and the staff have the bandwidth to meet the requirements. We find as well that many of our students are presenting with additional learning needs or are learning in different ways. It is a very powerful environment where they learn from each other so it is very important to give them that time. I am very thankful for what we have but would welcome more.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Is there gender balance in the programmes?

Dr. Anne-Marie Butler:

Very much. I would have to check the exact number but it is a very even spread across locations. It is also a very good spread in terms of experience. There are many with us who have more than 20 years of experience and others who are newer to the organisation. We try to do a lot with mentoring and buddying-off of staff. There is very good representation.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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What would Dr. Butler like to see added to the university programmes and apprenticeships ?

Dr. Anne-Marie Butler:

I was just going to say this to the Senator before he left. With horticulture, for example, we have different streams approved. Landscaping has started but streams like nursery, parks and amenity, fruit and veg are all approved and waiting to go. Our other one is the equine stream. We are working on an equine apprenticeship and that has just going for level 7. We would like to have that full complement up and running. An appreciation from society at large of the value apprenticeships as a valuable learning stream is also very important. We certainly look forward to that. We need to spread the word to others that this is another learning pathway.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I am just thinking of the IT and innovation stuff, given the amount of IT stuff farmers have to deal with.

Dr. Anne-Marie Butler:

It is huge.

Johnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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It is massive. It is even the machinery they are bringing in with the controls and the whole thing.

Dr. Anne-Marie Butler:

We have a lot on agri-tech, or even AI in learning and that whole area. I am the mother of a daughter in secondary school and she is often working from an iPad. There are not books in the school. She is showing her mother some of the things they are doing. It is very important that is brought into our colleges and courses and that we respond and educate students. In some schools students can do 21 subjects for the leaving certificate and many of those are subjects that certainly were not there back in my day. Many of them are also IT focused. It is a good point.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Kerrane.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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I will be brief.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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We are over time, if the Deputy does not mind.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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I just have a couple of very quick questions. The first is for UCD. I was interested in the fact that about 35% of students take the work placement part overseas. Could the witnesses tell me a little more on that? I was surprised it would be that high just for the work placement element. Where do they go? What kind of industries do they go to in order to cover that part of the course? Professor Boland mentioned engagement at transition year level. What would the level of engagement be between UCD and agricultural science students? They are obviously a cohort of students who might have an interest and therefore should be looked at for providing courses and giving them that information for when they finish school. The leaving certificate is a good time to get them.

The witnesses from UCD and Teagasc mentioned the generational shift and the move away from agriculture, which none of us wants to see. Could they expand a bit on the specific courses, topics or areas they see not getting as much interest as others? What would they be? As mentioned by Teagasc, engagement with agricultural science teachers and career guidance is important. I know this as a post-primary teacher. No offence to any of the schools I went to but sometimes with career guidance you would be sent in the direction of a college or university but it is really important that young people, especially those who might do the leaving certificate and then not do anything or not go to college, be informed to know there are other options. Sometimes when they have gone out of school it is nearly too late. There is a real job of work to be done there. The agricultural science curriculum would need to be looked at as well but that is an issue for another day.

Professor Karina Pierce:

I thank the Deputy for the questions. On the work placements, all our students go on work placements during third year or stage 3 of their programme and we encourage them to take international placements where possible. Some do not want to do that. It is a great opportunity for them to go. I am director of the dairy business programme. About 90% of our students go on work placement to New Zealand. That is on farm placement. There are a couple of aspects to that. It is not that there are not farmers is good in Ireland, because there absolutely are. That particular cohort of students go in July and that is because the seasons are flipped in New Zealand so they get calving, breeding and so on over there. There is a lot of learning when a student at 19 or 20 years of age heads off with their class. They go as kids and they come back a lot more grown up five or six months later. In terms of broader education there are really important parts to that. We would have students who go to the US, New Zealand, Australia and all over the world but the southern hemisphere would be particularly popular. Part of the reason for that is because they are grass-based countries as well. For dairy in particular, many students will want to go to the Victoria region, southern Australia or, in particular, New Zealand. That is where we would see them. I would speak from the dairy side but our students go everywhere. There has been a lot of pent-up demand from students who felt they could not go anywhere for a couple of years. We have seen a big jump in students who want to study abroad or do a placement abroad because they are thinking they never got anywhere for a couple of years so they want to go while the gate is open.

The Deputy also talked about increasing contact with students doing agricultural science. As we mentioned earlier, we have a lot of contact with agricultural science teachers. Their annual conference is on the UCD Lyons Farm on 18 November. They have had their conferences in Teagasc centres as well. We engage a lot with them. We also engage a lot with career guidance teachers and we would have feeder schools in counties where a lot of students come to UCD from and beyond that. Staff go out to information evenings and talk about the programmes. We try to extend our reach as much as we can. The UCD open day is on Saturday and there will be thousands of students coming to that from all over the country. We very much try to speak with the career guidance teachers, get out to the schools and educate them about new programmes that are coming. Professor Monahan mentioned the sustainable food systems programme. Our job now is marketing that and getting out to the schools, to the agricultural science teachers and so on.

Dr. Anne-Marie Butler:

On the courses and changes we have seen, I will give a very quick overview of some of the changes. Looking first at our distance students, those are students who are over 23 and already hold a level 6 qualification. Many, as Professor Pierce said, are working in other areas. They are certainly asking us to cover more around biodiversity, organic farming, bees and the natural environment rather than grassland management and what would have been seen as the traditional green cert courses. We are doing a lot of work in that area. There is a major focus on it and we are certainly looking at modules that can work within that. Looking at the full-time students, the numbers are pretty stable but we see interesting trends. Dairy farming is very popular with our full-time students but in Ballyhaise College, there are more students looking to do beef and sheep than dairy farming. There is a little bit of variation across the country. Our horticulture numbers were probably the lower element but in the apprenticeships, which we just spoke about, we have seen a renewed interest in horticulture and particularly from people in the industry looking to chat to us about where they can upskill in that area. I would also mention forestry. We would typically bring about 15 full-time students a year into forestry. There is very stable, steady demand. They are certainly not the big numbers we have in the other sectors. It was interesting what happened recently. We have a forestry simulator in Ballyhaise College, compliments of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. It is there a couple of years. The students went to Finland on a field trip and when they were in the forest they were offered the chance to make use of a piece of machinery that costs €500,000.

When they got up on the machinery, it had the very same controls as in those in the control room in Ballyhaise College. It just shows the power of learning and what we can do with the support of the Department and others in bringing that into the classrooms. It is very powerful. Those 15 graduates tend to be snapped up.

As a former student of a careers guidance teacher who had a very different career path for me, I very much take the Deputy's viewpoint on career guidance and I completely agree. We also have a role to play with parents - I mean no disrespect to my two friends here beside me - around where they see their children going. As a result of this evening's discussion, the importance of trying to link further into primary and secondary schools to create awareness has resonated with me. For many people, the sector is very vibrant. All of us here have studied agriculture and gone in different ways. We have a very important role to play in that regard.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I have a question that may have been asked while I was away from the room. This committee visited the UCD Lyons Farm a while ago. I was impressed with the grass research that was going on there and the different forms of forage production rather than grass. There were different varieties of clover and multispecies swards. Do Teagasc and the universities agree a programme so that there will not be duplication of research? Obviously Moorepark and different research stations for Teagasc would be doing different trials. I thought there would be greater similarity between what I was seeing in the UCD Lyons Farm and what Moorepark and Teagasc would be doing.

Professor Frank O'Mara:

We work very closely with UCD, not just on education but also on the research side. It is the one university that has a research farm. As I mentioned earlier, the number of Walsh scholars we have in collaboration with UCD is the biggest of any of the universities here by far. We work very closely. Multispecies swards is just one area in the whole area of forage production where each of us is very familiar with what we are doing. Very good work has been going on in UCD in that area for many years. I believe Professor Boland was the first to kick that off in UCD. In our centres, including Moorepark, the Grange animal and grassland research centre and Johnstown Castle, we have multispecies swards. The one unique thing that Teagasc can bring to that research, which perhaps is not duplication, is the Curtins farm system. That experimental unit is actually a mini farm where we are able to run long-term farm studies on self-contained farmlets. Teagasc has been doing that type of farm system research for many years. We are able to look at multispecies swards in that context and consider where they fit into an overall system for profitability, sustainability and the longevity of the species in it. It is complementary rather than duplicating the work that goes on in UCD. We all know each other very well and share information and findings on a very regular basis.

Professor Tommy Boland:

I would echo that comment. We work really well at an institutional level and at an individual researcher level. We have many students supervised by UCD who are working on Teagasc research sites through the Walsh scholarship scheme. Work is going on in UCD, Johnstown Castle, the Grange facility, the Athenry campus, Moorepark and the Curtins farm. It is really valuable to have this replication of sites across the country because for a small island we have a number of different soil types around the country. If we want to introduce a new technology like a multispecies sward, we need to understand how it responds in different soil types and different climatic conditions. Replication is not always a bad thing.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I will just add to that. UCD Lyons Farm has high economic breeding index, EBI, cows. Teagasc would have tried out lower EBI cows on various systems. Have the researchers come to a conclusion as to which is the best from a climate point of view with regard to carbon footprint and so on? Which is the best or is that research ongoing?

Professor Tommy Boland:

That is like asking which is your favourite child. I will defer to the professor of dairy production on that one.

Professor Karina Pierce:

The herd at the UCD Lyons Farm has a very high EBI, which follows very closely with the messages and the research that have come from Teagasc and all its good work in genetics. With the next generation herd and a lot of the herd in the Curtins farm, the EBI of our herds are genetically very similar. The make-up underneath might be a little bit different but actually they are quite similar. I would say it would be more controversial if we had gone a route that was not EBI or if we had gone-----

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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The question I am asking is around the higher yielding cow or the lower yielding cow that is tried in some of the trials by Teagasc. Have we come to a conclusion as to which is the most climate-friendly cow?

Professor Karina Pierce:

I could not give an answer on that now. I know that when we look at our carbon footprint, I would always benchmark it against the carbon footprint Teagasc releases from published research such as that from earlier this year by Dr. Laurence Shalloo. We would compare very favourably with that. We might have a higher output cow and we are maybe feeding more to achieve that, but one balances the other because with the output per kilogram of product we are diluting over a greater output from the cow. We would have a carbon footprint of-----

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I understand the sum. Which is the best?

Professor Karina Pierce:

On which is the best, I would say we are very similar. I could not say we are better. The reasons are, basically, that we use high genetics and high amounts of home-grown feedstuffs. We are utilising 10 tonnes to 12 tonnes of grass, for example. The metrics being advocated from a Teagasc perspective are actually being implemented on the UCD farm. I do not know if there is a best in it. We are both using good genetics, a lot of grass and high-producing fertile cows. We are skinning the cat in a different way. Basically we are looking at a low-carbon footprint. Using the figures that Teagasc produced, I believe we are very similar in that regard.

Professor Tommy Boland:

On the funding side, while we collaborate with Teagasc and the other institutions engaged in agriculture research nationally, we also compete as well. At times it is a very competitive research environment. We are faced with huge challenges in the agrifood sector. This needs significant investment in the research service, the advisory service and the educational service to help us to address those.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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And the issues I portrayed.

Professor Tommy Boland:

Absolutely. As a researcher I was always told very early on that any time you get an opportunity, you should say you need more research funding.

Professor Frank O'Mara:

I want to add to Professor Pierce's comments. Our research herds have a very high EBI. The difference may be the level of concentrate input we would use in our systems compared to what would be used in the UCD Lyons Farm system. It is hard to say one is better than the other. The job for us as researchers, and for UCD and us as advisers, is to make every system better, regardless of whether it is a higher input or a lower input system. In general across Ireland our competitive advantage is our grass. There will be situations where it suits and may be the best option for a farmer to go the high-input route but for the country as a whole our competitiveness is based on grass. It is a low-cost feed. The competitiveness improves the more grass utilisation we have per hectare. This is what we are driving in our systems. If Ireland went to a more high-input system, we would not be any much different from countries in Europe or North America and we would have no competitive advantage over them. Our concentrate feeds are probably a bit more expensive here than in those countries. We must keep a very strong focus on grass. The more grass utilised per hectare, the more competitive our systems are. This is why there is a worry over the nitrates derogation. I spoke a little about this at yesterday's catchment science conference. If we cannot utilise high dry-matter production per hectare because of a limitation on the stocking rate, we will lose some of our competitiveness. Ultimately, there would be no reason for a farmer to stay in a high-grass system. If we move our country into a more high-input system, not alone will it impact on the profitability of the industry but it will also impact on our sustainability because we will have a lot more feed competition.

We will be feeding more human edible food to our cows. That is a concern from an environmental point of view. The more grass utilisation we have, the more carbon sequestration we have. We want to keep that very strong in our systems as well. The high grass system is animal welfare friendly. It is the kind of system that people think of when they think of dairy production. That is not to say that the higher-input system in UCD does not have all those kind of things as well but, in general, it is important that as a country we recognise the competitive advantage that our grass gives us.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I ask Senator Lombard to be brief.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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If we were to lose the derogation, it is basically being stated that instead of opting for a cow that will produce 7,000 l or 8,000 l-----

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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The Senator can ask that question at the breakfast briefing in two weeks' time.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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People are after waiting an hour.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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Let me ask one question. In a nutshell, it is being stated that instead of having a cow capable of producing 6,500 l or 7,000 l of milk, people should opt for those capable of producing 10,000 l to 12,000 l. The latter will probably be the type of cows people will opt for if we lose our derogation. Would that be fair?

Professor Frank O'Mara:

There is certainly less advantage in staying in a high grass system if one cannot utilise high grass per hectare.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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We are going into a different debate now. That rogue knows he is doing that too.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I seek only a one-word answer. In case Dr. Butler's former career guidance teacher is looking in, if she was not the head of education in Teagasc, what would she have been? What did she want Dr. Butler to be?

Dr. Anne-Marie Butler:

She told me I would make a lovely teacher, so maybe she saw something.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for the comprehensive overview of our advances in agricultural education. This has been an informative session. We will suspend to allow the witnesses from the Shannon Callows area to come in.