Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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The purpose of this meeting is for the committee to discuss all aspects of road safety. On behalf of the committee, I am pleased to welcome from An Garda Síochána, Ms Paula Hilman, assistant commissioner with responsibility for roads policing and community engagement, and Mr. Thomas Murphy, superintendent of the Garda National Roads Policing Bureau. I am also pleased to welcome from the Road Safety Authority, RSA, Mr. Sam Waide, CEO, Ms Sarah O'Connor, director of partnerships and external affairs, and Mr. Michael Rowland, director of research, standards and assurance. From the Medical Bureau of Road Safety, I welcome Professor Denis Cusack.

I will read out a note on privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside of the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member participating via MS Teams to confirm prior to contributing to the meeting that he or she is on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

I invite Assistant Commissioner Hilman to make her opening statement.

Ms Paula Hilman:

Good afternoon. I thank the committee for the opportunity to brief it on what we are doing, and what we plan to do for the last quarter of the year, in respect of road safety, especially given the devastating trend of road deaths that have occurred. We were greatly concerned about the increasing number of fatalities on our roads during 2022, which has continued on through this year. From 1 January to 25 September 2023, there have been 126 fatal road traffic collisions. To give some context, that is 21 collisions more than in the same period last year and 36 more than in 2019. This has resulted in 136 people tragically losing their lives, 26 more than in 2022 and 37 more than in 2019. I have cited numbers, but we in An Garda Síochána very much recognise the human impact and devastation that every road death has on families, friends and communities. Our local gardaí and family liaison officers have visited too many families over recent months and I would like to take this opportunity to extend our sincere and heartfelt condolences to all those who have suffered loss on our roads. One death on the road is one too many and my colleagues in An Garda Síochána and I are committed to working with our partners and communities to ensure that our roads are a safer place for all.

Road safety and roads policing are a strategic priority for us and are in our 2022–2024 strategy statement and our 2023 policing plan and will be in our 2024 policing plan, which is currently being developed. We are committed to promoting and enforcing responsible behaviours on our roads and reducing the risk to vulnerable road users through targeted information-led prevention and enforcement activities, working in partnership with the RSA, other statutory bodies and interagency partners to strengthen our collaboration on achieving the collective aim of Vision Zero and to deliver on our individual actions and partner actions within the Government's Road Safety Strategy 2021-2030.

Keeping People Safe is the mission statement of An Garda Síochána and this includes keeping people safe on our roads. To assist the committee, I will now outline the structures and governance of roads policing and roads policing performance that we have.

I have responsibility for the Garda National Roads Policing Bureau, which is based at Garda headquarters and led by a chief superintendent. The bureau is responsible for national policy development and implementation, equipment, training and partnership working to deliver the Government road safety strategy. This includes the development of national operational plans and providing operational colleagues with analytical products on trends and performance information.

The operational responsibility for roads policing sits with each divisional officer who reports into his or her own respective regional assistant commissioner, who is responsible for the roads policing performance in their region and for implementing and overseeing operations in the region. There is strong collaboration between me and the regional assistant commissioners and between the Garda national roads policing bureau divisional officers and divisional roads policing units.

I will briefly outline the structures and tasking that occurs. The roads policing operation plan is distributed quarterly. It is an information-led and intelligence-led plan for the tasking of roads policing personnel nationally. The focus of the operational plan is always on high visibility enforcement of the key lifesaver offences which include intoxicated driving, drink and drugs, speeding, wearing of seatbelts and mobile phone usage. This plan was previously published annually but is now published quarterly to enable us to be more agile and responsive to the trends we are seeing on our roads.

In line with Roadpol and international good practice, we issue a bank holiday roads policing operational order. This is produced and distributed before each bank holiday and followed up by a press release. Again, it is evidence-based and takes into account the trends in fatalities and serious injury in road traffic collisions for the previous 12 years that allows us to task then what we think will happen this year. Since the introduction of this evidence-based approach in August 2022, we have seen a positive trend in reduction in fatalities over bank holiday weekends. Unfortunately, this is not replicated at other times given the increase in fatalities in the year to date.

Roads policing tasking and co-ordination is taken at monthly meetings that were introduced in early 2022. These meeting are chaired by me and attended by the chief superintendent from the national bureau and four regional representatives who are there on behalf of their respective assistant commissioner. There is a set agenda, including detailed input by the roads policing analyst. Each regional attendee is provided with in-depth analysis of performance broken by region and division. Recent trends are discussed and communicated to ensure activity is focused in these areas. The Road Safety Authority, RSA, CEO and representatives of the RSA attend the last section of the meeting where educational outreach, media campaigns and partnership working are discussed and actions agreed, again, in response to trends. All this comes together and this in-depth analysis of performance is shared and used to inform the deputy commissioner and my own regional and divisional performance accountability meetings, which are held monthly.

I have mentioned our roads policing units and I am sure we will be talking more about them throughout the committee meeting. The activities of each divisional roads policing unit are managed by a designated inspector in that division. They are responsible for the enforcement and investigation of roads policing offences, preventative policing operations, forensic collision investigations and road safety engagement and education. As of today, the current strength of roads policing is 664 members out of a workforce of 13,910 Garda members. It is also important to note that the prevention, detection and prosecution of roads policing matters is not solely confined to roads policing units, and our colleagues on the front line, both in uniform and plain clothes, also contribute to road safety. In general, overall, 75% of roads policing offences are detected by roads policing personnel and 25% by other Garda members, with the exception of intoxicated driving when this trend is reversed. With regard to intoxicated driving, our members welcomed the new drug testing wipe that was introduced in December 2022. Committee members will hear more about that from Professor Cusack so I will not talk anymore about that at this point.

In terms of education and engagement, learned behaviours achieved through appropriate education throughout our lifetime are essential. We are committed to the work we do in educating road users about the dangers they may face or, indeed, cause by their actions. As an organisation, we fully support and work alongside the RSA in its education campaigns.

In addition to our Garda schools programme, our most recent education project with regard to road safety is now coming to fruition, namely, the Lifesaver Project, which will focus on young adults. We recently introduced the BikeSafe programme, which is focused on the education of motorcyclists. Garda motorcyclists provide both in-class advice and practical training with regard to the driving of motorcycles. We also make best use of social media channels to engage with the public in respect of road safety campaigns and messages and we work closely with the press office in this. "Crimecall" started again on Monday night we have a designated slot for roads policing. We will use this platform to relay specific messages, advice and appeals.

Before I conclude, it is important that we outline the significant investment we have made in technology as part of our modernisation programme. To date, just under 14,000 mobility devices have been issued to members. These devices enable gardaí to search records for information related to drivers and driver licences. The Garda traffic app has more than 8,400 users. The fixed charge notices, FCN, app now has more than 6,300 users. In 2022, more than 140,000 fixed charge notices were issued via the mobility platform. There is ongoing consultation with the Department of Transport driving licence section in developing systems that will allow us to access driving licence data. Initial developments in this area are already evident with the increase in detections of unaccompanied learner drivers, with 5,034 detections this year to date, an increase of 24% from 2019. We are currently in the final stages of developing the technology that will enhance our enforcement capabilities will be the introduction of the Irish motor insurance database, IMID, app, which will provide us with a real-time view of the insurance status of a driver at the roadside. This will be a game-changer in combatting the use of the roads by uninsured drivers. Our fleet currently stands at 332 vehicles, 98 of which are fitted with smart technology that alerts our members to the presence of untaxed or stolen vehicles, etc. We utilise mobile safety camera vans to enforce speed limits of our roads and have 1,571 locations approved nationally. As a result of an increase in funding, we are deploying them to a further seven divisions. I am sure I can outline those during the meeting.

To conclude, I assure the committee of An Garda Síochána’s commitment to playing our part in reducing death and serious injury on Irish roads. We will focus our efforts on education and enforcement and delivering our individual and partnership actions. Not underestimating our policing role on our part that we need to play in enforcement, enforcement alone will not deliver the transformation that is required and equally, road engineering and design are vital, as are the continued education programmes and transformational policy and investment. Engineering, education and enforcement, with significant advancements in technology in the use of safety cameras, are collaboratively required. That concludes my statement. I thank the committee for the invitation to speak today on this very important issue. Superintendent Murphy and I are happy to answer any questions and outline more of the work we have planned for this year and 2024.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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I thank the assistant commissioner. I now invite Mr. Waide to make his opening statement on behalf of the Road Safety Authority.

Mr. Sam Waide:

I would like to begin by thanking the committee for the opportunity to speak to all members on Ireland’s road safety trends this year and the current progress against actions within Our Journey Towards Vision Zero: Ireland’s Government Road Safety Strategy 2021-2030.

It is with great sadness that we acknowledge the tragic loss of life on Ireland’s roads in 2023 and previous years. I would like to extend my condolences to all the bereaved families across the country in addition to those who have been impacted by serious injuries in those collisions.

I know that today we will be talking about numbers of people killed and injured. We all are conscious, however, and I, in particular, am conscious, that every one of those numbers is a person, a brother, sister, father, grandfather, granddaughter, grandmother, friend, work colleague and member of a community.

From 1 January to 24 September 2023, there have been 136 deaths on Irish roads. That is 26 more deaths compared to the same period in 2022. In addition, almost 850 people have been seriously injured in road traffic collisions so far this year. August had the highest number of fatalities per month this year with 26 road deaths occurring.

If the trends of the year to date continue, we could potentially see 192 people killed by the end of this calendar year.

While it is not yet possible for An Garda Síochána to verify the primary contributing factors to recent fatal collisions, our data show that weekends, late nights and early mornings have been high-risk periods. Almost half of fatalities this year occurred between Friday and Sunday. The highest number occurred on Saturday. Although night-times feature lower traffic volumes, they feature high numbers of collisions. The evidence suggests that these periods present greater risks in terms of driver behaviours like drink-driving, drug-driving and fatigue. Targeted enforcement needs to be planned with this in mind.

There has also been a tragic loss of many young lives on our roads this year, with higher numbers of deaths than any of the past five years. Twelve children under the age of 16 and 35 teenagers and young adults aged between 16 and 25 years old have needlessly died on our roads. Almost eight in ten of all fatalities this year were male. This is a pattern we typically see year-on-year in Ireland but also across Europe and in fellow EU member states. In terms of location, the counties of Tipperary, Galway, Mayo and Cork have seen the highest numbers of fatalities in 2023. Rural roads with a speed limit of 80 km per hour or more accounted for almost seven in ten of all deaths.

International research and Irish data show that speeding, drink-driving, drug-driving, the non-wearing of seat belts and using a mobile phone while driving are the main contributory factors to death on the roads. This Irish data includes self-reported surveys, observational studies and coroners' reports and shows deterioration in some of these factors.

That describes the hard facts we are facing when it comes to road safety. The committee will want to know what we are doing to address these challenges. In addition to our strategy - we are in phase 1 of the action plan - there are eight priority focus areas to urgently improve road safety in 2023. These have been identified and approved by the road safety transformation partnership board, which is chaired by the Department of Transport, and the ministerial committee. These focus areas include the use of technology and targeted enforcement to reduce traffic offending, the conducting of research to further understand driver behaviour and the implementation of the recommendations of the recently completed speed limit review.

Given recent high-profile and tragic multifatality collisions, a number of additional measures have also been progressed in recent weeks. The Minister has committed to bringing forward emergency legislation to make it easier and faster to change penalty points with an intended focus on increased deterrents for killer behaviours. The Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, also indicated he will introduce mandatory drug testing for drivers involved in serious collisions, mirroring the mandatory testing for alcohol in place already. I referred earlier to killer behaviours like speed. These are why additional funding to support increased GoSafe camera van hours until the end of this year is so important. The assistant commissioner will speak to those actions planned by An Garda Síochána.

The Department of Transport has also requested that the RSA identify the resources required to urgently implement additional education and awareness campaigns targeting dangerous road user behaviours, including those killer behaviours. Regarding road safety education and awareness, it is important to highlight that the RSA has a comprehensive suite of measures in place to meet our statutory requirements with current campaign priorities targeting the killer behaviours, as stated. In response to the trends seen in our collision data this year, we are adopting additional measures, set out in my written submission, which include engaging young people through Spotify, YouTube Music, Twitch and TikTok and a new disqualified driver campaign aimed at young men to convey the practical impact of losing your licence. We are also planning a new educational initiative on drug-driving for those aged between 16 and 25. The RSA will be co-ordinating Irish Road Safety Week in October, which will involve councils, schools, sports groups and many community organisations. We want every community to get involved in Road Safety Week and make their community as safe as possible. The RSA is significantly investing in campaigns on drink-driving, distracted driving and protecting vulnerable road users by slowing down. A new e-scooter safety campaign is planned for November. Lastly, our national "Who is Mary Ward?" campaign went live in the last two weeks. It aims to motivate individuals and communities to change their behaviours right now and protect all road users by improving Irish attitudes to road safety today and going forward.

For the remainder of 2023 and beyond, the RSA is committed to working with An Garda Síochána, the Medical Bureau of Road Safety and others, including all of the agencies represented on the partnership board, to target the high-risk times, groups and locations identified. I will take this opportunity to thank the staff of the RSA, who are incredibly dedicated and hard-working people who seek to save lives and reduce injuries and who go the extra mile, day in and day out. Our team will continue to undertake its evidence-led and partnership-based work with the public and all those who want safer roads for all.

It is critical that we implement an evidence-based approach to tackle these behaviours and reverse the increasing numbers of road deaths. The Government road safety strategy, which has three phases and runs to 2030, is founded on the "safe system" approach, which has been recognised as international best practice and is critical to achieving significant reductions in road deaths and serious injuries. Phase 1 of the action plan sets out comprehensive actions to reduce deaths and serious injuries. The RSA is leading on many of these actions with partner agencies such as An Garda Síochána, the Medical Bureau of Road Safety, the Department of Transport, TII, the National Transport Authority and others also leading specific actions. This cross-agency and cross-departmental investment and collaboration is essential to delivery. We need transformative outcomes and that requires transformative policy and investment.

Recent trends serve as a reminder to all of us that we can never be complacent about road safety. It is critical that it remains a priority for the Government, even when sometimes it appears things are improving, and it requires continued investment. There are three months left in 2023. Reducing road deaths and serious injuries will only be achieved if, as stakeholders, we remain committed to the delivery of the evidence-based Government road strategy and the priority actions identified earlier this year, including enhancing enforcement, education and awareness, legislation, new resources and technology. Within communities, we must highlight the importance of road safety and promote the conversation about road safety and how to improve it. As individuals, we must make a commitment to use the roads more safely.

This concludes my opening statement to the committee on requested matters. I am joined by my colleagues, Michael Rowland and Sarah O’Connor, and we are happy to take questions members may have on our submission, my opening statement and other matters pertaining to road safety.

Professor Denis Cusack:

On behalf of the Medical Bureau of Road Safety and as its director, I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for the kind invitation to present and assist the committee with regard to current aspects of road safety. I see the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, on the other monitor speaking to the Seanad on road safety at this very moment. I addressed this committee on 30 June last year and some of what I say will be a repeat of what I said at that time. However, it must be repeated as it is even more relevant today.

As I am the last to deliver an opening statement, some of what I have to say has already been said. I am curtailing some of my written presentation to make this oral presentation.

As well as speaking as the director of the bureau, I am also going to, as I usually do, bring in my experience as a coroner and forensic clinical doctor. I have been involved in each of the Government road safety strategies since the first in 1998 when the number of road fatalities in Ireland was 472. That was a time when we had a much smaller population and that 472 equated to 124 per million of population. In 2023, as we have heard, there has been a significant and tragic increase of almost 25% on the 2022 figure with 136 people killed to date, exceeding the total number of deaths recorded for all of 2021. That is a shocking and jolting reminder of how these figures are subject to stark change in a short period. As has been said, each of those dead persons was a unique individual with a loving family and friends who is now lost to us before his or her time. A large number of those who died were young, under the age of 35, including children. As a doctor, I wish to stress one of the points that has already been made. I have been with my colleagues in the National Rehabilitation Hospital on Rochestown Avenue. The number of not only life-changing but life-shattering injuries, with blighted lives and enormous stresses on families, is approaching 900 this year to date.

Factors causing road crashes stubbornly remain the same and need to be named over and over again. They include, as we have heard, speeding, the non-use of safety belts and protective gear, and dangerous and careless driving due to fatigue. The term "distracted driving" is used but the word "distracted" makes it sound like there is something external causing drivers to be distracted. I prefer the term "driver lack of attention", which puts the responsibility back on the driver rather than on an external factor. That could be due to mobile phone use. Of course, driving under the influence of intoxicants is also a cause of crashes. None of this is new and we must approach it on all fronts. Our response must be evidence-based and including the new speed limits must be proportionate. There must be buy-in from the public. We must have the confidence of each citizen.

What do we have to do now to refocus yet again? I will deal first with driving at excessive speed. I am putting on my coroner's hat. Excessive speed for the road condition and driving under the influence of alcohol and drugs remain the highly significant problems in road crash causation. That has not changed. I emphasise and support the measures to tackle this problem based on speeding, which is often combined with intoxicated driving, not wearing seatbelts and lack of attention. Practical measures to address this include the lowering of the speed limits on certain roads to appropriate levels, education that the limits are not targets, an increased mobile speed detection programme, more fixed speed cameras and average speed detectors. They work elsewhere and they can work here. They are going to cost money but will save money and, more importantly, save lives and injuries. I urge the allocation of resources and funding to bring the current mobile speed detection system to the maximum achievable in the immediate term. That does not mean next year. It means in the next month or so, leading up to the end of the year. That will have an immediate outcome on the horrendous injuries and deaths.

Something else I have noticed only occurred to me in my own driving. There should be greater use by individual drivers of the speed limiters in modern cars. I use one. From time to time, we do not attend to the speed limits. A speed limiter is a very good control. Someone said to me that would mean we adjust the limiter as we move between speed limits. That is exactly the point. It means drivers must pay attention to adjust the limiter up and down. We are not making use of that simple technology. I urge the use of an education programme encouraging drivers to use speed limiters.

Regarding driving and intoxicants, the committee knows about the Medical Bureau of Road Safety, MBRS, so I will not go into it. We operate under the Road Traffic Acts 1968-2016. In 2022, a total of 5,662 blood and urine driver samples were received by the MBRS for alcohol and drug testing with 3,800 being tested for drugs. More than 3,800 breath samples were tested for alcohol in 87 Garda stations across the country. Some 1,400 preliminary alcohol breath testing devices are supplied by the bureau to the Garda. The number of blood and urine samples received this year to 22 September was just under 4,000, a 6.5% reduction on 2022 but higher than the 2019 pre-Covid figure.

Alcohol remains the most frequently used intoxicant in driving. In drivers found positive for alcohol in samples analysed in 2022, the average blood alcohol level was 160 mg per 100 ml of blood. The limit for the ordinary driver is 50 mg per 100 ml. The highest level found was 415 mg in blood. That is enough to kill a lot of people from alcohol poisoning. The vast majority of drivers with alcohol intoxication are very drunk when driving and the predominant cohort responsible is men under the age of 45. It is not just people who miscalculate and take an extra bit of wine when they do not need to. These people are far over the limit.

One of the actions in the road safety strategy, and now part of one of the ministerial priorities, is the alcohol interlock device which will prevent a vehicle from starting if the breath sample from the driver is over the alcohol limit. This is being led by the bureau. We have already had an EU invitation answered by a number of manufacturers. We are getting ready to test and approve such devices in the coming months. They will initially be for fleet drivers but they will later also be used in driver offender programmes. It is very technical but this ensures that any device introduced conforms to the highest standard. It will, in the first instance, be used on a voluntary basis for those fleets. The fleet insurers should be involved. Perhaps they have some incentives to offer. I cannot go into more detail in that respect because I know the Department is working on it. This would only be the first step. The figures show that approximately one third of the drivers in coroner's reports had alcohol on board. That does not mean it was the cause of the accident but that is certainly significant. If we could eliminate that factor by not allowing cars and other vehicles to start, we could make great headway.

On the issue of drug driving, samples were found positive for cannabis, cocaine and benzodiazepines. As with alcohol, those drivers who were detected drug driving were multiple times the limits. They were five, ten and 12 times the limits we have for cannabis and cocaine, in particular. When they are over the limit, they are way over it. It is also most common among those under 45 years of age.

I am now holding up the current system we use. It is not like the big machine and that is important. It tests for cannabis, cocaine, opiates, benzodiazepines, amphetamines and methamphetamines. The introduction of this new cassette system will facilitate the proposed introduction of mandatory roadside drug testing at the scene of a crash where injury has occurred. This will bring the powers of the Garda to the same level available as in respect of alcohol under section 9 of the Road Traffic Act 2010 at the site of a crash where there is an injury.

All of these measures, together with reviewing penalties for polydrug use, which means alcohol and drug use or two types of drug use, will be top priorities in the current legislative review. They give a clear message that intoxicated driving is not permissible.

We must also ensure that drivers on medications, properly prescribed and dispensed for medical conditions, continue to take their medications. That is important to me as a medical practitioner. Sláinte agus tiomáint and the leaflets on medicines and driving are important. We must have a medical and dependency rehabilitation programme to assist the health and well-being of the small number of drivers who have alcohol and drugs misuse addictions. Those should be available in addition to sanctions through the courts.

I will end on a positive note. There has been a lot of despondency, which I understand. I have dealt with families whose loved ones have died or been injured. Notwithstanding the terrible toll of road deaths and injuries, we already have road safety tools in place. We must double down on these measures and hold our collective nerve. We must show courage to act on both existing and new measures. With that, we can again decrease the numbers of road crashes and injuries. I have summarised in seven points some practical measures to address speeding and intoxicated driving.

I commend these measures and initiatives to the committee. I thank all my colleagues in the bureau. I am pleased, as are my colleagues here, to assist the committee and to answer questions from the members about issues arising. I thank members for their courtesy and attention.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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I thank Professor Cusack and all the witnesses. We will now take questions from members. The first speaker is Deputy Dillon.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank all the witnesses for their opening presentations and statements. I am sure we are all in agreement that road safety has been a matter of great concern among the public lately, especially given the startling increase in the number of road deaths among young people and the life-shattering injuries that some have endured. There is clearly a need to re-evaluate and reinforce measures to curb the current trends. I am delighted to see each of the key stakeholders before the committee for a productive discussion on where we go with this.

I will focus first on the allocation of resources within An Garda Síochána and concerns arising from the decease since 2019 in the number of members of the road policing unit, despite the rising number of fatalities. Will the assistant commissioner explain why there has been a reduction in the strength of the road traffic unit?

Ms Paula Hilman:

I thank the Deputy for his question. The Deputy spoke about the last five years, during which we have seen changes in the number of roads policing members. That is not consistent across the four regions, however. It will be helpful, therefore, if I outline what we see in the four regions. Overall, the number has declined since 2019. Roads policing members are leaving on promotion and for natural transfer reasons. There are various reasons people move, not just in the case of roads policing but in all aspects of policing. In two of the regions, we have seen increased numbers in the area of roads policing. The north-west and eastern regions have more numbers in their roads policing teams than they had in 2019.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Can Ms Hilman give us the total numbers?

Ms Paula Hilman:

Yes. The eastern region had 153 and now has 169 and the north-west region had 166 and now has 169.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What is the current strength of the roads policing unit?

Ms Paula Hilman:

Overall, the number is 664.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What was the 2019 figure?

Ms Paula Hilman:

It was 723.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We have therefore seen a decrease.

Ms Paula Hilman:

Yes. The majority of that decrease is in one region, Dublin. We are committed to putting more people in roads policing and we have a list of people who are suitable for allocation within the Dublin metropolitan region. However, we also have to wait until we deal with the allocation of more recruits and more people joining An Garda Síochána. That will then have a knock-on effect. To give the overall number, approximately 5% of our workforce is dedicated to roads policing.

In the fourth region, the southern region, the number was 181 in 2019 and is now 174. We are committed to ensuring we have the numbers. As we continue to recruit, it is an area that I, my regional assistant commissioner colleagues and the commissioner will be looking at as we get more people joining An Garda Síochána. Regarding where we are today, in addition to roads policing members, regular Garda members and community policing teams also carry out road safety functions.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The facts are that there are 59 fewer personnel within our roads policing unit. How does that align with the goals of improving road safety and high visibility enforcement among the public to counteract offences such as speeding and intoxicated driving? How will An Garda Síochána reverse that trend?

Ms Paula Hilman:

In terms of visibility, it is important that we make maximum use of the resources we have at the moment. I have already outlined how we give people the information. There are the trends that both Professor Cusack and the CEO of the RSA have highlighted. I mentioned the bank holiday weekend operations. It is a matter of ensuring that people are tasked to the locations at the times they should be tasked to them. When they go out that day, they must know where they should be working and the areas on which they are tasked. It is also a matter of ensuring they have the equipment and vehicles. We have been looking at that issue. We have the drug wipe tests and the vehicles-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Again, my question is about whether An Garda Síochána is committed to strengthening the road policing unit. There are 59 fewer personnel now than there were in 2019. We are seeing a trend of increasing numbers of road deaths and serious injuries. I want to hear from An Garda Síochána that there is a commitment to strengthening the road policing unit. Does Ms Hilman agree with that?

Ms Paula Hilman:

I do, but we also have to wait until there are more resources. It is welcome to see the number of people who are currently in training in Templemore. As they go through Templemore, I hope we can get more gardaí allocated to roads policing.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is there a plan in place to increase the strength of the roads policing unit from the next cohort of graduates from Templemore?

Ms Paula Hilman:

Yes. That plan sits with the respective regional assistant commissioners. Each of the regional assistant commissioners has done, or is in the process of doing, a-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is it the case that An Garda Síochána has not made that decision yet?

Ms Paula Hilman:

Made what-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am asking about a decision on how many new personnel will be recruited into the roads policing unit.

Ms Paula Hilman:

No, I do not have that information. It would not be totally within my autonomy to do that. It is a matter for the respective regional assistant commissioners. However, I want to give reassurance today. For example, in the Dublin metropolitan region, we have a list of people who are suitable and can be allocated to roads policing once those resources become available. Within the other regions, those advertisements and processes are in place so that they will be able to be committed once they are-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will ask about the detail of the additional hours being allocated to the seven Garda divisions where there is a high risk of fatal collisions? In Ms Hilman's opening statement, she referred to Cork, Tipperary, Galway and my county, Mayo. How will these hours be distributed? What kind of coverage can we expect?

Ms Paula Hilman:

The current contract with GoSafe provides for 7,500 hours per month and we will get an additional 1,300 hours on average. The contract allows for that. Between now and Christmas, we will see a graduated increase in those hours. Unfortunately, those divisions have the highest numbers of road deaths, as the Deputy outlined.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does Ms Hilman have a breakdown for each county?

Ms Paula Hilman:

Is the Deputy referring to the number of fatalities.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am referring to the number of additional hours that will be deployed.

Ms Paula Hilman:

I do not have the number of additional hours. We just worked out the number for September. The meeting on the hours in October is ongoing as we speak. I can give the Deputy the overall number. In September, there will be 500 additional hours; in October, there will be 1,030 additional hours; in November, there will be 1,235 additional hours; and in December, there will be up to 1,500 additional hours. We have already asked for additional hours for all of 2024. What is happening now is that the bureau and the respective chief superintendents in each region are coming together with GoSafe. Those hours will be allocated and must be allocated in line with the approved zones and the areas that we know are the highest risk. That in-depth work is ongoing.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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When will that decision be made? We are in September now. In August, we had the highest number of fatalities in a month on record, with 17 fatalities. Will these additional hours include evenings and weekends? I want to get an understanding of the late nights and early mornings, which are the highest risk periods. Has An Garda Síochána factored that in?

Ms Paula Hilman:

Yes. It may be helpful to explain. The graduated increase is due to the fact that GoSafe has to purchase more vehicles. Ideally, we would have liked to have gone straight in and allocated more than 1,000 hours. However, we could not do so because GoSafe had to recruit more people and get more vehicles.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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How many more vehicles?

Ms Paula Hilman:

I do not know the exact number of vehicles, but I can certainly get that information supplied to the Deputy. I just do not have the number. What I can say is that they will be allocated 24-7.

They work 24-7 and will be allocated on that basis. A significant amount of analytical work will be undertaken to identify the highest-risk areas and that is where they will be deployed. Mr. Waide referred to times. They will be deployed at the times when they will make most impact. That is why we focused initially on seven divisions. We are having fortnightly meetings on this. I give that assurance. This has gone live. We are having fortnightly meetings and can adapt and change based on what we are seeing. We can increase it or we can reduce the numbers.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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My final question relates to the redistribution of resources based on the regions with the highest number of road fatalities. Has that been factored in? What is the plan to address the imbalance? There was reference to the Dublin region. We looked at the Dublin metropolitan region, which has seen a reduction in road fatalities. Other regions have not been as fortunate. I wish to hear from An Garda Síochána in respect of the reallocation and redistribution of resources. Is there a plan?

Ms Paula Hilman:

As regards the plan, we have advertised and we will have people available. That will then be looked at by the regional assistant commissioners as we start to get more people coming in from the college. The people who will be going to roads policing are on the front line and in other roles. That will be considered. I emphasise that 25% of roads policing enforcement is also done by front-line members. It is not solely done by those regular units. There is collaboration and they work together, as well as community policing teams.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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I started driving 20 years ago, at a time when there was a significant and very visible road safety campaign. The late Gay Byrne led the charge in terms of being front of house. Road death numbers were up at approximately 400 or 500 year on year but then there was a downward trend. I do not have the figures in front of me but I looked at them in advance of the meeting last week. Ultimately, they came down to the levels we were seeing in the past five years, but now we see a trend where they are moving back up. What measures were successful collectively in bringing the numbers down, in what seemed like a big drop, to where they have been in the past five years? What can be learned from that period? I invite Professor Cusack to respond first, to be followed by Mr. Waide.

Professor Denis Cusack:

As I will make a presentation to the citizens’ assembly on Saturday and to an English group on drugs driving next week, I may have the answer to the question, thankfully. In terms of the graph, there are certain points where one sees significant decrease. Through my 30 years in forensic medicine and road traffic medicine, the biggest decrease was in 2007, when we implemented the 2006 mandatory alcohol roadside testing. That was one of the most significant measures. It took time. I remember debating with the Office of the Attorney General whether it would be an infringement on personal freedom, as we were told. Like many things in law, road traffic Acts must be proportionate. That testing saved lives, however.

If I may say so, the founding of the RSA was also very significant. It gave a focus. Gay Byrne, Lord rest him, and I had numerous discussions with Mr. Waide’s predecessor. I refer to the education work the RSA is doing. We need to target young people. That has not changed. Every year I tell my wife I am giving the same message out but she keeps reminding me there is a new audience every year and there is a need to repeatedly state the same thing.

The other aspect is the focus by the Garda on roads policing. In recent years there has been the road safety strategy and the work in that regard. I am trying to be positive because one can quickly fall into negativity. The road safety transformation partnership board, which succeeded a high-level ministerial committee, gets approximately 17 or 18 organisations around a table. We put our resources together and work together. We are not siloed. We work on our own. That is important. In addition, there has been the role of Ministers from all political parties through the past 15 or 20 years. Ministerial commitment and input are critical. That is why we have done it.

I was on a Zoom meeting yesterday with colleagues in England and they, too, are seeing an increase in road deaths. I was at a forensic meeting the week before last and many of my colleagues on the Continent are seeing an increase in road deaths. Why is that the case? There is a theory that, post Covid, people are enjoying freedom again and perhaps, as a society, we are letting loose. We often talk about what the Garda, the Minister or the Legislature can do but, in most cases, it comes down to individual behaviour. I want to be very sensitive about this. As a coroner who has dealt with investigating hundreds of car crashes and other vehicle crashes through the years, I mean this with the greatest sensitivity. It may be down to a person who foolishly drank too much, took drugs, did not wear a seatbelt, did not pay attention or used a mobile phone. We have to be very careful, particularly after what has happened. It is not that we are telling people they are to blame and it is their fault but we need to get back to that individual responsibility. What I say to people is, "For God’s sake, if you are not killed, you could kill somebody else or maim or injure your brother, girlfriend or boyfriend in the car. Think of what you can do to yourself and others." It is all of those things. Mandatory alcohol testing is critical, however, and the introduction of the device for drugs driving last year is already making a difference.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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I will move on to ask another question if Mr. Waide does not mind. I know my previous question was for both him and Professor Cusack but in the time that is available to me-----

Professor Denis Cusack:

My apologies for my lengthy response.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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It is a long meeting and we will all get a chance. As regards the mandatory drug testing coming through, there has been mandatory alcohol testing for some time. On the random testing side of things, there was a period in my life when I could not turn a corner without hitting a random Breathalyser test. Some people say the checkpoints are always in the same places but that was not the case in my experience. They were everywhere. I was stopped all over the country. I could not stop hitting the checkpoints, which was brilliant. Has that testing decreased? Has the number of random alcohol testing spots decreased in recent years? Is random drug testing also carried out? If so, to what extent? If not, will it be implemented in the same way as random alcohol testing?

Ms Paula Hilman:

I will begin and then hand over to Mr. Murphy, who has been an operational roads policing superintendent. If I heard the question right, the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach is asking about mandatory intoxicant testing checkpoints.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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Yes, the random checkpoints where drivers are pulled in.

Ms Paula Hilman:

We have carried out more than 30,500 of them this year. In the past year, they averaged approximately 5,000 a month. At those checkpoints, we test for both alcohol and drugs. The equipment available plays a role. In 2020, Professor Cusack released the last drug testing machines from stations. We found that having them mobile in the vehicles was much better. From that date, we had the old device in the vehicles. Having more of them has contributed to the increased detection of drugs since 2019. We now have the drug wipe. We test for those at both checkpoints.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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If I am pulled over, will I be tested for both alcohol and drugs, as a rule?

Professor Denis Cusack:

If I may help, misinformation went out that we were suddenly introducing mandatory drug testing. Mandatory drug testing has been in place since April 2017. If section 9 of the 2010 Act is amended, the change will be that it will be done for crashes. That has been a significant factor.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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My question relates to the checkpoints.

Professor Denis Cusack:

The checkpoints have been for alcohol and drugs since April 2017.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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Okay. That shows how long it has been since I was pulled over.

Ms Paula Hilman:

A person may not always be tested-----

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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Yes.

Mr. Thomas Murphy:

Outside the mandatory checkpoints, we have also rolled out training for crime units - drug units and so on - which may stop a vehicle on suspicion of there being drugs in the car. The search may be negative but the teams have now been trained to test the driver as well.

More often than not, they are found to be over the limit or drug-positive. That has rolled out exponential learnings throughout the force as well. That is in addition to the mandatory checkpoints.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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I have blown into a breathalyser maybe 15 or 16 times in my life but I have not in the past few years. If I go home tonight and run into a checkpoint, a few pass and I am one that is pulled in, am I blowing into a breathalyser and getting drug tested or is at the discretion of the gardaí at that point? This is just a checkpoint. It has nothing to do with-----

Mr. Thomas Murphy:

More often than not, the experience of the roads policing member at those checkpoints indicates on visualisation of the driver whether it is alcohol testing, drug testing or both. That experience leads to positive results on those tests.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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The resourcing is the same and there is no difference between them. The Garda has enough testing capacity for both alcohol and drugs.

Mr. Thomas Murphy:

Absolutely. There is no problem there.

Professor Denis Cusack:

The breathalyser tube for alcohol is less than €1. There are 30,000 of these drug testing devices and I think 13,500 have been done, which is much fewer than for alcohol because these cost about €15 or €16 per device and it takes a little bit longer. Therefore, I do not think we will ever reach the same level of random drug testing as with alcohol. Again, that is a worldwide experience. However, it is out there and that is why people know that if they take cannabis, cocaine or their benzodiazepines, the enforcement and equipment are there. That is a positive message.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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I thank the witnesses for answering my questions. Before I move on, I acknowledge the RSA “Who was Mary Ward?” campaign, which I have noticed I the past week. It is very powerful and hopefully it has impact.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for being here to discuss this important issue. I have some questions that each of the three sets of witnesses can come in on. The first is picking up on the issue of what has changed and why it has changed, which Professor Cusack touched on. There is a gendered element to this - it is younger men. Is there a piece in respect of how we use our roads post-Covid? I refer to vulnerable road users, pedestrians and cyclists. Is there anything in terms of substance use that has changed post-Covid? Is there anything that has changed in our mobile phone use, for example?

Professor Cusack made a point the last time and I did not hear him mention it today, but it stuck with me, and that is the fear of being caught as a deterrent. I do not know if he wants to touch on that point. It is relevant to An Garda Síochána and RSA strategies.

Finally, what legislative changes do the witnesses think need to happen as a matter of priority?

Perhaps we can start with the RSA because we have not heard from them yet.

Mr. Sam Waide:

On what has not changed, unfortunately, the killer behaviours persist – speeding, drug-driving, drink-driving, mobile phone use while driving and non-seatbelt wearing. Unfortunately, the killer behaviours have not changed to an extent where in some areas, they are getting worse.

To echo Professor Cusack’s point, the positive here is that a number of these areas are addressed within the strategy. We have a good session today so we can get into more details on that. I refer to the importance of the actions in the strategy. The strategy is a live document. If it needs to be changed, it can be. We reviewed it already at the start of 2023. We have pulled out priorities within the strategy, including addressing the killer behaviours. As I stated in my opening statement, the need to tackle those killer behaviours is multidimensional - from an education and campaign perspective, from an enforcement perspective and from a consequential perspective. What I mean is that we can educate and enforce but when the persons get to court, there needs to be a consequence. Part of our messaging within the RSA has been trying to highlight, particularly to young people, which the Deputy mentioned, the consequences of losing your licence. It could change your life for the next ten-plus years. Your friends, colleagues and peers will be able to travel the world, go travelling and go working. Many opportunities will be closed down because you lost your licence. We have tried to focus on those particular cohorts of people.

Perhaps I will bring in my colleague, Ms O’Connor, who has been involved in some of that work. She could come in now or later. Perhaps she can touch upon it at this point.

Ms Sarah O'Connor:

It might be helpful if I give a specific example of a campaign to show the Deputy a little bit about the direction we have been moving in the past two or three years - or probably even longer; it has been a long journey. The overarching strategic piece that is useful for members to know about is that it is about going to the right channel or right place to find the right audience with the right message. For us, that is all guided and informed by an evidence-led approach, best communications practice and making sure that we know what is best and we follow that advice.

For example, a specific campaign we have run in the course of the past three years – it is unlikely, and I hope I do not cause offence to any members, that it may be top of their priority list – is the implications of losing the opportunity of going on a J1 visa to the US. Building on what my colleague said, that has run on digital channels where we know young people are engaged and interested. It is possible none of us in the room has seen it, but it will have followed people around on the Internet, social media and digital platforms where they are, where they exist and where their lives are. In addition, it follows them at the right point in the year. Applications open in September and close in February. We do that in partnership with USIT. We make sure people see it on TikTok, YouTube Music and all of those kind of channels. That is what has been guiding some of our work.

As my colleague mentioned, the consequence piece is very important. The moral argument is brilliant and it is important we continue to make it every opportunity we can. However, it is not the only button that we can press to influence behaviour change. Therefore, for example, we are in fairly deep and progressed discussions with the Department about a campaign surrounding the concept of disqualified drivers. What is the real-life impact of losing your licence? Potentially, you cannot go out on a date. Perhaps you would have to be dropped to school or college by you mom, dad, brother or other family members. You are totally dependent. That sense of freedom and independence that is very important to young people can be impaired. Members should expect to see that campaign. We will have that campaign produced. It will be out there and it will be live. Again, it is very informed by where to go. It is video-on-demand. It is not necessarily on RTÉ between the news break or "The Late Late Show" if the young person is not watching. It goes to where they exist in their lives and opens that sphere of influence. That is the driving force and the strategic imperative that we are bringing to bear to the communications.

I can understand it can make people feel uncomfortable. For example, “Well if I did not see the ad, is it out there?” However, if the ad is not for you, we will not spend money on putting the ad on television where it may be quite expensive. We will spend it trawling around after somebody on TikTok so they may see that particular engagement. Somebody said to me, “Your recent campaign was brilliant last weekend.” I was thinking that we had not done a piece of PR or media last weekend, so what was he talking about. He had seen our piece about older pedestrians. He was a younger male road-user. He had seen it seven times over the course of a particular weekend on different channels and it knew where to find him. It is that kind of piece of deft work we are trying to do.

Mr. Sam Waide:

I want to bring it back to conversations that I have had in my time as the CEO of the RSA with people who have lost loved ones.

It is Michael O'Neill, who lost his daughter. It is Donna Price. It is a Susan Gray. It is Leo Leighio. Whether it was this year, last year or 15 years ago, they still feel that loss. This motivates the RSA and everyone who works there to continue to try to improve what we are doing and to try to ensure that road safety is not forgotten about. In my opening statement I said that, to some extent, Ireland has been really effective in road safety. In 2022 we had one of the lowest death rates ever. However, what comes with that is potential complacency and that relates to my point about requiring continued investment in road safety. Everyone I have spoken to about this wants us to continue, to make sure no one else suffers that loss and pain. I mention some of the people who have been seriously injured. Olivia from Cork, who fractured her skull is fortunate to be able to tell the tale. The career of Imogen Cotter, a young professional Irish cyclist, was almost ended completely because of a road collision. She has been working with the RSA and others to try to highlight the risks. I will allow my colleague, Mr. Michael Rowland, to answer the Deputy's and the Cathaoirleach's question of what has changed or what has not changed in Ireland.

Mr. Michael Rowland:

The gender elements was mentioned. This is a predominantly a male problem. The people being killed on our roads are predominantly male. I am not sure what has changed, but we have seen slippage in attitudes and behaviour. One in particular that I would call out is the attitude towards drinking and driving. That has become more socially acceptable. There has been a 10% decrease in the percentage of drivers who say that most of their acquaintances think driving under the influence of alcohol is unacceptable. That was 82% in 2015. In more recent years it is 72%, a 10% drop.

We did a self-report survey last year asking drivers about their drug use. Some 14% of drivers reported driving within one hour of taking drugs other than prescribed or over the counter medication. We have mentioned distracted driving and mobile phone use in particular. In our observational surveys we go out on the streets to see how many people are using their phones. Some 5% of car drivers use their phones, 11% of light goods vehicles drivers do and 9% of HGV drivers do. When we ask people to self report, to tell us exactly what is happening, we are aware that 35% of car drivers check their phone notifications, 28% of them talk on a hand-held phone, and that is equally as dangerous as hands-free. Regarding writing messages and emails, the figure is 27%. We can see that there are major issues with mobile phones and what people are doing. We have huge compliance in terms of seatbelt wearing but of the people killed on our roads, 29% of drivers and 23% of passengers were not wearing their seatbelts. They are some of the major issues for us where we have seen slippage.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for their opening statements. We are all conscious of what happened over the summer. All of us who use the roads are aware of the issues, particularly concerning young men, which Deputy O'Rourke mentioned. I drive quite a bit, probably about 1,000 km a week. In my experience, a lot of the time it is the fault of the chancers, the people who come up at speed behind another car, swing out, go around the corner and are gone. These people are reckless and take unnecessary risks. They seem to continue doing so on all kinds of roads. It does not have to be a very good road. In fact, very often it is the back roads and by-roads where this happens because they consider them to be quieter with less traffic on them. I often wonder how do we get the message to these people. Not only do these people have accidents themselves but they often cause accidents as well. I am aware of the speed limit reduction proposal. Certainly on many of our roads, we need to see the speed limits reduced. However, I think a law has to be proportionate to be obeyed. There are many quiet country roads with an 80 km/h speed limit where 50 km/h would be more appropriate. However, there are some country roads where 80 km/h is appropriate. There needs to be a balanced approach to ensure we do not have a situation where people see a speed limit, which they consider to be crazy and, as a result, break it. It has to be proportionate. We need to be cautious to make sure that happens. I am not sure how that will be done, perhaps through the local authorities, but it certainly needs to happen.

One of the biggest issues we come across is that people are continually reading and sending text messages while they are driving. At least while answering a call on hands-free, a driver can still in concentrate on the road. More and more people are inclined to read and send texts while driving. As technology has improved and mobile phones have become almost an extension of ourselves, it is more predominant.

Technology has been mentioned and the idea of having static cameras. We need to increase the roll-out of these. Regarding the mobile phone issue, surely there is technology available that could tell if a mobile phone is moving. Can technology be applied to the phone that it will not send or receive text messages? Perhaps there are things like this that can be examined. That would be helpful.

Drugs testing is vital but I have a concern. Someone mentioned to me recently that some people take medication such as painkillers very often. Will this be considered? There needs to be reassurance that these particular testing mechanisms will not cause difficulties in respect to that.

Ms Paula Hilman:

As part of the road safety partnership board, we discussed many of those issues. Regarding mobile phones, experience has shown that people are watching television programmes as well. We have seen this and we have talked about the enforcement vis-à-visthe legislation. There is careless driving, and then there is someone holding their mobile phone. There is the option to prosecute someone for not paying due care and attention when driving. However, we do see those careless attitudes changing.

Regarding the technology, yes, the driving could be looked at. There is technology that prevents a phone being used while driving. Another practical measure is at the initial stage of being considered. This is to use safety cameras for speeding, average speed, but also to monitor for non-wearing of seatbelts and mobile phone use. Other European jurisdictions use their safety cameras to detect people using their mobile phone and not wearing their seatbelt. That would take a long time and there would need to be consultation but our current technology could do that.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Why would it take a long time?

Ms Paula Hilman:

We would have to work through the legislative issues and then through the data protection impact assessment, DPIA. It is being looked at and it is something that needs to be considered. To refer back to our responsibility, Superintendent Murphy oversees the fleet. We have issued unmarked Garda vehicles. A balance needs to be struck between the number of marked and unmarked cars in terms of how visible the Garda presence is. I am not being defensive here but when people see the liveried car in the distance, they stop whatever they are doing but the unmarked car allows us those detections. We have that balance in our fleet. There are certainly opportunities for technology in this area.

Deputy O'Rourke has left, but I can combine two questions. Yes, deterrence is enormously important. We were asked who to aim it at. There are gender differences biologically and physiologically. Gay Byrne and I spoke about it a number of times. One of those differences is that the male brain does not develop in the frontal lobes to decrease risk taking. Risk taking is actually part of human survival and men continue to take more risk to a later age than women do. Men make up more than 80% of violent deaths and so we target it. How do we target? Risk taking is an inherent behaviour; perhaps that will change in 1,000 years. However, at the moment that is physiologically neural chemistry and neural biological. Therefore, we aim it at those people.

The Deputy asked about cocaine. I believe there has been an increase in cocaine use. In fact, I know it from coroners. Without being facetious, I have been tracking the economy of Ireland since the 1980s. When the economy is up, cocaine use is up. When the economy is down, cocaine use is down. Cocaine and crack cocaine are now much stronger - incredibly so. That leads to increased risk behaviour such as speeding and not wearing seatbelts, so that may be another factor.

The Cathaoirleach spoke about when he was slightly younger, 20 years ago. This is not in any way to diminish it but in 1980 my recollection is the population of Ireland was 3.5 million. We now have a population of 5.3 million which means we will see an increase in the number of deaths. That does not mean we do not go for Vision Zero, but some of the increase in number may simply be due to demographics.

I thank the Deputy for asking about drugs and medications. I mentioned the citizens' assembly because one of the things I will be talking about at it is drugs. Could someone test positive at the side of road after taking an over-the-counter or prescribed medication? The answer is "Yes". As with alcohol someone could be under the limit. People might be taking Valium or a sleeping tablet legitimately, they will be in the bloodstream and they could test positive at a roadside test. However, unless it is one of the drugs where there is a limit, the person must have impairment. By the way, for medicinal cannabis or medical cannabis, we have an exemption certificate. Could someone be taking a painkiller which has a codeine? Yes. This is the message I am trying to get across.

People say they are not going to stop taking things just because they could be prosecuted. Unfortunately, on the radio somebody said if you take your medications, you could end up being prosecuted. No, if they are taking them in accordance with what they should be and are not impaired, they will not be prosecuted. I urge people to keep taking their medications as prescribed by their doctors or as advised by their pharmacists. We all know ourselves when we change our medications or the dose, we are not quite up to it. Healthy driving is also important. I hope this covers some of the Deputy's concerns.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Much of our discussion so far has been about the driver and the driver's responsibility. An issue that needs to be examined is the quality of the roads people are using. I come from a rural county, County Leitrim, and was on Leitrim County Council for many years. Every year the local authority provides the Department with a list of places where it feels there are issues with regard to road safety. There might be 20 where there are staggered junctions or bad bends. It looks for money for safety measures to be put in place. If it submits 20, it might get funding for two or three of them. That issue also needs to be examined because there are stretches of road that are dangerous and need to be improved. Not only do we need to see better driver behaviour and safer use of the roads but there is also an issue with regard to safer roads. Do any of the witnesses have a view on that?

Mr. Sam Waide:

The local authorities are represented on the road safety partnership board. I encourage those local authorities to raise their voice through that representative of the County and City Management Association, CCMA, so that we bring that into the priority conversation to address the roads and the technology. I am publicly asking everyone. Insurance companies can play a positive proactive role in encouraging young people in particular not to use their mobile phones. It is tied into behaviours. There are behavioural apps which help to incentivise young people in regard to the insurance premium. I will attend an insurance conference quite soon. The Motor Insurers Bureau of Ireland works effectively with An Garda Síochána and us on technology and data exchange related matters. I ask the insurance industry to come forward with more ideas for how to incentivise young people to improve their behaviours in that regard.

Professor Denis Cusack:

The Deputy asked about other people. Passengers are also important. If a driver appears intoxicated or whatever, their girlfriend or boyfriend, if they are less intoxicated, should be saying they are going to get a taxi, that the partner is not driving, and if they are, the girlfriend or boyfriend is not going with them. Sometimes passengers can bring a little bit of sense and that may be worth pursuing as well.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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I will now call Deputy Cannon. If Deputy Lowry comes back, I will bring him in after Deputy Cannon and he will be followed by Deputy Danny Healy-Rae. If Deputy Lowry does not come back, Deputy Danny Healy-Rae will come in after Deputy Cannon.

Ms Paula Hilman:

I thank the Deputy for the question. We have spoken about this before and we meet many of the groups that represent road users about our digital evidence management system, DEMS. That is the system we need that will be behind the portal, so it is not as straightforward as opening the portal. Behind the portal we need the digital evidence management system that will be able to collate what is being put in because we expect, when we go live, that we will have that from multiple sources. At the moment, people can individually report things. I am conscious people write into us saying it is not effective. We still have Traffic Watch. Until we get this up and running, I encourage people to report matters to us and to use Traffic Watch. We are looking at how we align Traffic Watch with our new four regional control centres, because it may take another year, if not slightly longer, to get the portal up and running. We need to keep advertising what we have and using what we have. It is an IT project led by our chief information officer as the head of IT, but he and I talk regularly because of the close interaction with roads and people using the roads. It is used in many other jurisdictions and we know about that. We equally look forward to when it goes live. The Deputy asked about what is preventing it. It is being worked through. It is the Garda Síochána (Recording Devices) Bill 2022. That Bill will also enable us to have body-worn cameras and the digital evidence management system. That is what is currently being worked through with our IT colleagues.

Ms Paula Hilman:

Yes.

Ms Paula Hilman:

As part of our IT project, we can manage it on those one-to-one cases as people come in. I have talked closely and regularly with the head of IT, who is leading this, and the briefing I have had is this is about the volume coming in and then, once it is behind that, how it is managed by it coming in anonymously. If we look at other police services-----

Ms Paula Hilman:

The Deputy is right; I stand corrected. It would not be anonymous, but it is about it being able to come in automatically. We are not comparing like with like. If we look at any of the other police services, they will have a system that sits behind it to be able to collate that. We do not with our IT infrastructures.

Ms Paula Hilman:

Yes. The DEMS process is also part of the system that is coming in through that Bill and it is part of that as well. I am happy to get back to the Deputy about that and get more detail from our IT colleagues, offline from this, if that would be fine with the Leas-Chathaoirleach.

Ms Paula Hilman:

We very much are, yes.

Ms Paula Hilman:

Superintendent Murphy will speak to that. Just to say, this is also something that is one of the actions under the road safety strategy as well, namely, how we can use technology for traffic management, including, especially in city environments, bus lane enforcement. When we look at best use of Garda resources and the finite resource we have, many of the issues are ones of traffic management. It is a project the National Transport Authority, NTA, is looking at as part of the actions in the road safety strategy in terms of compliance with traffic signs. Superintendent Murphy has knowledge of this so I will hand over to him if that is okay.

Mr. Thomas Murphy:

I was involved in the pilot for the red light running. It was a multi-agency pilot scheme to test and see what it was possible to do. To move it on as part of the road safety strategy, the NTA has taken that. I am involved with looking at it. As the assistant commissioner has already said, there is bus lane enforcement and parking on footpaths and so on. It is about rolling that out. At the moment, we are just looking to see what legislative tweaks we need to allow the NTA to prosecute on its own behalf rather than relying on An Garda Síochána to do it. That is sort of the modernisation of that system. We are working forward on that as part of the road safety strategy. Where we are today is an expansion of what we learned from the red light running system.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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I ask the Deputy to keep it short, please.

Mr. Sam Waide:

I will answer the first part of the question. The RSA absolutely has a role to play. In all forms of mobility and segregation of mobility, whether it is pedestrians, e-scooters, cyclists, cars or whatever it may be, we provide research on an ongoing basis to the agencies, including Ministers and the Minister for Transport. We have an ongoing role to play in providing that research and the evidence base for those interventions. The Deputy is correct that we are a national organisation. We do and are willing to play a more active role where we are invited and where we participate in that wider active travel. Some of that research has informed those pedestrian lanes.

I will circle back to the point made regarding An Garda Síochána and the average speed cameras. I am familiar with the technology and camera company helping with that pathfinder project in Devon and Cornwall. I agree with the Deputy that it is a very successful project. They are using mobile average speed cameras, which are deployed in Devon and Cornwall in a terrain very similar to parts of Ireland, where there is not the ability or opportunity to construct gantry-style motorway average speed cameras. There is, however, the ability to use those mobile average speed cameras on rural roads where there are collision hotspots, and outside schools and community clubs where there is a road safety problem. I advocate that as a solution. I attended this committee three years ago and have always advocated the use of that technology, as I did more recently. Average speed cameras are not the only answer but they are quite an effective way of monitoring traffic and changing behaviour for the better. I would welcome the committee's support in engaging with whomever to encourage identifying investment to accelerate that particular intervention in 2024

Mr. Michael Rowland:

The Deputy asked about our influence, especially in respect of active travel. We are very supportive of it. The road safety strategy is a safe system approach. One of the tenets of that strategy is safe and healthy modes of travel. We encourage that. We participate in other national committees, including the most recent committee on the reduction of speeds, and the recommendations in action No. 6 of the road safety strategy. We promote segregation of vulnerable road users. Where that segregation cannot happen, we promote the slowdown of traffic, the most recent being action No. 6. We also target other road users, in particular motorists, to slow down and we promote the slowdown message. We promote active travel at every opportunity because active travel means healthier, happier and, it is hoped, safer road users.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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I thank the Deputy for coming to the committee. His work on this is well known and well regarded.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Danny Healy-Rae has the next slot. He is becoming a regular at this committee. He is very welcome.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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It is a very important committee. It has a very important role to play as there are a lot of issues with our roads.

I welcome all the witnesses. I thank them for their work. They dwelt a lot on road regulations, and the penalties and speed limits and all that but alongside that, we need to deal with the issues with our roads. Sadly, there has been an increase in fatalities. We need to dwell and look at each individual case. One fella who lived ten miles away from me was killed at a rally at the weekend. Damian Fleming was always very careful and was not driving when it happened but, sadly, his funeral is this evening. He was very well respected and was always a very careful boy on the road.

We have to deal with the massive increase in the volume of traffic. As members may know, I was an elected member of Kerry County Council for more than 20 years. I dealt with a lot of issues relating to road quality, road surfaces and road safety. I will point out to Mr. Waide that county councils have been, and are, very active and very vocal. There are five municipal areas in County Kerry and five municipal meetings. I look at the motions and table some myself. My family is involved and are county council members as well. We are very active and vocal about roads and looking for funding.

I will mention one particular road, the Killarney bypass, otherwise known as the Cork-Kerry economic corridor. We have been promised that road for more than 20 years now. Going back to 2018, the figure given for vehicular movements on the current road, which we hope to bypass, was 18,600. The figure for last year is now more than 23,000. I believe it has gone up again since then because the volumes are massive. There is an increase in the volume of vehicles on the road, whether it is cars, lorries or anything. To take the little village of Kilgarvan where I live, people cannot leave our pub from the front of it now. They have to watch to get a chance because cars are coming down, coming out from Kenmare, and coming behind them down the local bog road from the school and all that. Every road is thronged with traffic. We need to dwell on the condition of our roads, our junctions, the way our hedges are not trimmed back, and where trees are overhanging. If a lorry goes up a road that touches all the trees and a lady comes behind with a car full of children, there are branches falling down in front of her. We could and should be able to do something about those kind of things. Money should not come into question if we can save one life, surely, for what it costs to do that kind of work.

Another simple issue to address is that of waterlogged roads. The roads are all flooded today. We get a lot of warnings on the radio to watch and go slow, which is great. There are simple things, such as ponding water at the side of the road, which was previously dealt with by a section man in the council, who is not allowed to go out on the road on his own now to open and let the pond of water go. It would take five minutes and a mighty job would be done.

It would make a mighty difference in making a road safe for people who may not know it. Perhaps the likes of us who travel every road know where the issues are and where the ponding will be. Simple measures like this should be taken. It can cause the wheel to be pulled or whipped out of someone's hand and then the person cannot see where they are going with water splashing all over the windscreen.

I am amazed by a particular new road that has been built. Back in my father's time, we had been agitating for the Macroom bypass. To think this new infrastructure is in place is great in one way. However, is a two-lane motorway and there is no space for a vehicle that breaks down. That vehicle would have to stay in one of the lanes, most likely the inside lane, with vehicles coming up behind it doing 100 km/h. There are three or four spots but someone would have to break down where they are. There is no lane to pull in to. It is absolutely ridiculous.

Likewise, there is junction coming onto the bypass from Millstreet, which is a major town in Cork. There is no slip lane to get onto the road. This is new infrastructure. It is not the fault of the contractors but the designers. It is not the fault of the people in charge of building the road. At design stage, surely a slip lane should have been included. It is the case on every other motorway in the country. This is the only one that does not have a slip lane and it is the newest one. We do not have a slip lane coming from Millstreet onto the road. There have already been eight accidents there and it is only opened a few months. This should not have happened. I call for it to be addressed.

Likewise, a junction was omitted for the people from Cill na Martra. This is not my county but I use the road a lot. No junction was put at the Mons Cross for a big part of west Cork to get onto the bypass. They must either go back to Balllyvourney or Ballymakeera or go over to Macroom on the old road and go through the town. I do not know what is going on.

We have Listry Bridge in Kerry. To say that Kerry County Council has not asked for work on it would be a desperate misrepresentation. The members in my time and the present members have raised it. Deputy Griffin and I have raised the issue here. He passes over that road. I asked for it to be made safe for him to go home. If he leaves Killarney his way home is over Listry Bridge. There are accidents there regularly. Over the summer there was a big hold-up that was mentioned on the radio.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Healy-Rae had better give the witnesses a chance to respond to all of these points.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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We have Shinnagh Cross in Rathmore, which is a five-road junction. We have been calling for a roundabout there. There is also the state of our little local roads. We do not get the funding. They are hippity hop. As I said, the hedges are not being cut. If we speak about safety, we have to include the state and condition of our roads and junctions and recognise there has been a massive increase in the volume of traffic.

Perhaps some members of the Government would rather see people not use cars at all but in rural areas there is no other way of travel. Let us think about walking or cycling today. The roads are not safe. Many roads are not safe for cyclists even on a fine day. Let us think of how dangerous they would be with today's weather. We still need cars in rural Ireland. If public transport were to be provided for everyone, the Central Bank would not pay for it. In rural places we cannot provide public transport. It is not obtainable and it is not a realistic option for many people. They need cars but we need to improve the state of our roads. I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Do any of the witnesses want to come in on these questions?

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I have one other issue to raise. There is one other desperate demon on our roads and that is deer. The Office of Public Works denies it has any responsibility and the National Parks and Wildlife Service denies it has any obligation to keep the deer off the roads. If you are responsible for the tag in the ear of an animal and something happens and the animals are not insured they would take the house from you. They would clean you out. So many people are being killed because of deer. They are being seriously maimed. The other morning the new car of a young fellow, who had to pay €4,500 to insure it, was made in flitters when he was going to work. This was on a public road of which the local authority is in charge. The State is responsible for it. This is what is happening on our roads. Deer are killing people.

Mr. Sam Waide:

I want to touch on a few points. The need for continued investment in road safety was raised earlier by members of the committee and in my opening statement. I feel compelled to highlight to everyone a figure that some members may be familiar with. We cannot replace a loss of life. I again give my condolences, not only to the family in the Deputy's constituency but to everyone who has lost someone. Investment should continue. It costs the State €3.5 million to €4 million for each fatality. If we turn this on its head, and state we will invest €4 million in all of the interventions or selected interventions, a single agency or one individual would not achieve it. It requires a collective effort.

The road safety strategy includes the safe system approach for safer roads, which is internationally renowned and is being implemented by our fellow EU member countries as well as ourselves in Ireland. The Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, has stated there is a need to continue to invest in safer roads. It is part of the safe system approach for road safety. I can only speak from the perspective of the RSA. The purpose of the organisation is to save lives. The authority has a research team and if the Deputy wants to engage with us, we can provide either assessment or monitoring of behaviours on an existing or new road. We can help to provide evidence-based commentary and support if a request was made in the past and is still outstanding. As I and my colleagues have said, we are delivering road safety interventions that are evidence based. If there is evidence that suggests a particular junction or a stretch of road is unsafe, we would welcome the opportunity to help provide information and work with local councils to try to address these problems.

My colleague wants to come in on one of the Deputy's points.

Ms Sarah O'Connor:

I thank the Deputy for his interventions. They are a very useful reminder to us. Two of them have prompted a thought in my head. He mentioned that he heard the weather warnings over the past 48 hours. Our team worked very hard to be very responsive and timely. They work with departmental colleagues throughout government on this.

As well as fixing the roads, giving warnings is very helpful, bearing in mind Professor Cusack's point that we are bringing on new cohorts of drivers all the time. Education on aquaplaning and how to drive in the rain, for example, is really important, not only for those of us who wish to refresh our knowledge heading into the winter but also for new drivers so they will know and understand what is involved as they go onwards. We have a series of videos, supported by Teresa Mannion of RTÉ fame, that help people to understand what is involved. Members should feel free to share them. They are really timely at this point of the year and can be very helpful.

The point on deer was actually raised with us by one of the Deputy's colleagues, Deputy Moynihan, in the past few weeks. We will be pushing out a series of social media posts to make people aware of the risk, which is obviously very localised but important to be aware of.

With regard to points of concern members may have, they should please feel free to contact us. We really do listen and take them on board. We try to design interventions with the insights in mind, whether through a big budget or small one. We are aware that Members are out on the roads day and night and see a lot, and also that their constituents let them know about a lot. Therefore, we are only too happy to act on their concerns, where possible, within an evidence-led and prioritisation-based approach.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Does Professor Cusack want to contribute as well?

Professor Denis Cusack:

Very briefly. I thank Deputy Danny Healy-Rae. I am familiar with some of the country roads around Killorglin but not all of them, although I have driven over the mountains down into the Deputy's lovely town, Kilgarvan. Some of the local factors the Deputy raised are very important, but could I bring the matter back to evidence? Again, I am open to contradiction. In my years investigating accidents, I noted that we have not much evidence that mobile phone use, although it can cause crashes, causes crashes that cause deaths and serious illness. It could mean that we simply do not have the evidence, because it is actually very hard to get the evidence. When I was coroner, I always said, "Take the phone", or, as the Garda says, "Seize the phone", to see what happened on it. We need more evidence in this regard. Road conditions damage cars but, again, I am not sure we have the evidence that they cause serious crashes. However, they certainly do cause crashes.

The other point relates to the condition of cars. Only a small number of crashes relate to the condition of cars. I am referring in particular to bald tyres. One might say the success of the car test is that we have fewer dangerous cars. Putting all this together, we need to get evidence. I would concentrate very much on speed, alcohol, drugs and seatbelts. That is not to say that we should not have better roads or that we should not stop mobile phone use, but we need to put our resources where they need to be and make the Deputy's lovely village and the people using his local hostelry safer, such that people can come out at night or during the day, including at the weekend, and cross the road. Evidence-based crash-----

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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And investment following from that.

Professor Denis Cusack:

Investment where it can make the most difference is very important.

Speed has to be proportionate. I can talk about the N59 in Galway. Great work has been done between Oughterard and Maam. The limit is 100 km/h. That certainly will not be brought down, as is the case when you invest. However, I stress again that when you see 80 km/h, it is not a target; is a limit. There are times, particularly during heavy rain, when you really have to slow down. I was driving out to Dublin Airport and it was great to see that the speed recommendation for the M50 had dropped. I literally saw it drop from 100 km/h to 80 km/h because of the high volume of rain. Again, we have to get the message across that, even if we reduce the limits on dangerous roads, the M50s to the N99s, you do not have to hit those limits. Part of the problem is that while we stay under the limit, we are all inclined to drive close to it. Some of the great studies from the RSA suggest that if you increase your speed over a few hours by 5 km/h, you actually arrive at your destination only a very small number of minutes earlier. Even I was astonished by that. These are the sorts of questions that need to be considered. Is your life worth ten minutes?

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I thank all the delegates for their replies. It is grand that a sign can be put up on a motorway asking people to reduce their speed when it is raining or snowing but this cannot be done on local roads. There is no way you could put up a sign on every road. At the same time, I must say to Dr. Cusack that the topography of our roads will determine whether a person can do 80 km/h, even though he or she might be entitled to do that speed in law. The ambient speed will be determined by the topography of the road. On many of our local roads, you cannot go above third gear. That is a fact. If there are accidents on these roads, they are not serious, thankfully, but there are junctions such as that at Poulgorm Bridge, where you turn for Kilgarvan and in respect of which we have been asking for-----

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy. I am conscious of the time. A few more members have to contribute.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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It is just that there are very serious accidents there continually. I thank all the delegates very much.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy O'Connor. As I sometimes say in the Seanad as much as here, there are minutes but this is a maximum, not a target. This is a bit like what we are saying about speed limits. The Deputy does not have to use all ten minutes but if he wants to, he can.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I certainly will. I will try to be quicker than Deputy Healy-Rae anyway.

I thank all the delegates for attending. Their contribution to road safety is very welcome. I am aware that An Garda Síochána is very stretched. I thank ordinary members of the force in barracks across the country for the work they do.

I want to follow on from what happened here last week. Mr. Waide's presence here today is positive but, having regard to road safety, I want to turn immediately to issues pertaining to the NCT waiting lists. I have the RSA's figures in front of me and note that, in quarter 1 of this year, 525,079 vehicles were on a waiting list for a test. That means over half a million vehicles that were waiting for a test were driving on the roads. With regard to waiting lists, we were told complete bluff here last week. I have spent the week trying to check the facts. What members of this committee were told last week by the RSA representatives, namely that the waiting time was down to around 17.5 days, was complete and utter rubbish. The waiting time in every centre within almost one and a half hours from the location in east Cork that I represent is as high as four or five months, approximately. In some cases, those booking a vehicle test online will have to wait until March 2024. Apparently, the waiting time is shorter if a telephone call is made. What has been said is just not accurate or correct. It is disappointing that representatives of Applus+ and the RSA were here trying to sell us the figure they gave. It is just not right. It makes it very hard for everybody else to make the roads safer when this is allowed to continue. There is no sign of an improvement. I accept that the number waiting in 2023 has gone from 525,000 to 250,000, but that still means 250,000 vehicles do not have a valid NCT certificate and are awaiting a test. The waiting time sometimes runs into months.

I asked last week about repercussions for the contractor. This has been going on for over two years. From my understanding of the customer charter, what was set down on the provision of free testing has not been adhered to. On this matter, I felt the goalposts were changed. When I pressed and asked what was being done by the RSA to hold the contractor, Applus+, accountable for the breach, I did not seem to get anything concrete back.

The other thing I want to say, which I have had time to think about since last week's meeting, is that it is slightly disturbing that a company was allowed a ten-year contract – a decade-long contract – to provide NCT testing. The information we were provided with last week indicated the contract was signed in February 2020. It is important to note that February 2020 was the month of the general election. I am not going to say the timing is suspicious but it is a little concerning. I want to get some further details. I want to know what other companies tendered for the RSA contract for testing. I would like the delegates to revert to the committee on that as I do not expect them to have that information to hand. Mr. Waide is new in his role and was not serving as chief executive in February 2020, but I want to know the details on why Applus+ was identified.

I want to know why because of the subsequent difficulties that have occurred since. It has been more than just Covid. There have been recruitment issues in the company with huge drives to bring in foreign labour while a number of staff left key roles and positions. Other issues have been raised here in the past around the treatment of staff. I do not want to go back down that road but ultimately, somebody has to be held to account.

The RSA has responsibility for driver testing. Waiting times for driver testing have increased dramatically nationwide which is not positive. Gardaí will say that means there are more people out on the road driving on learner permits, and doing so illegally if driving unaccompanied. Therefore we have to raise the matter of chronic waiting lists nationwide for driver testing with the RSA. There are issues around who qualifies for prioritisation. All this comes back to the RSA. I am putting those to the RSA for a response. First, can Mr. Waide accept the information provided to us last week that people are waiting for less than three weeks for appointments is not factually correct in centres that are any respectable distance from where they live?

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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We did cover this quite a lot last week but I do accept the point. The Deputy was not-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Hang on-----

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I am just acknowledging that Mr. Waide was not here. We are putting the question to Mr. Waide who was not here last week and allowing him to respond.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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That is why I am asking him. And without interruption as well because it is very important.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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But the purpose of this particular meeting is road safety.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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But it is road safety. It is the NCT.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I know. I made that point last week too.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Road safety and NCT testing are hand-in-hand. There is no difference.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I actually made that point last week.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Can we just let our participants answer the question, please?

Mr. Sam Waide:

Like others, I welcome the opportunity to come to the committee for this meeting on road safety. The most important thing from an NCT perspective is that every bay and mechanic is fully utilised. I am satisfied that is happening. Yes, the waiting times continue to be unacceptable. I apologise to customers for those wait times as I do with the driver testing. The Deputy gave some figures today and he referred to them last week. I was not at the committee last week. I have some figures before me but they change daily. There are 365,000 customers waiting; 48,000 have been tested, failed and required retesting; 200,000 have been provided with a booking; 7,000 are on a waiting list for an appointment; a further 35,000 vehicles have been tested which are not due until later next year and 8,500 vehicles are on the priority list. That is to recap for the public record. That is down 65,000 in February when the RSA last appeared before the joint committee. There are 100,000 vehicles which are not taxed or insured.

The Deputy raised the contract with Applus+. The RSA is incurring service credits on Applus+ as a result of it not meeting specific service level agreements. That was stated last week at the committee.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. Waide referring to the fine when he speaks about the service credits?

Mr. Sam Waide:

Yes. The provider, Applus+, is incurring a financial penalty. It is not a term used but it is service credits. It is a financial impediment-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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How much is the financial penalty?

Mr. Sam Waide:

Those details are commercial. That was stated last week.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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But the figure of €3 million that was mentioned.

Mr. Sam Waide:

That was a high-level figure. I cannot share the details because those are contractual elements.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Given what would happen in any other setting where an agency or contractor gets fined by a State body, it does not wash that the RSA cannot tell the public how much is involved here. For all we know-----

Mr. Sam Waide:

The details-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Let me ask my question. I was mid-question.

Mr. Sam Waide:

The Leas-Chathaoirleach stated €3 million.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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So €3 million is what Applus has been fined.

Mr. Sam Waide:

Yes. As stated last week at the committee, where service level agreements are not met we will continue to incur service credits on Applus+.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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It has been fined €3 million to date.

Mr. Sam Waide:

On the second point on the contract, the Deputy raised the duration of the contract. He rightly pointed out I was not in this post. It is a national contract. A duration of ten years is unusual for that kind of contract-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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That is significant.

Mr. Sam Waide:

Sorry, if the Deputy will let me finish. That is why the Minister and the Department have requested a review of the contract. It is for that reason, validly and rightly so.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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How long was the previous contract?

Mr. Sam Waide:

I can find that information for the Deputy.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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The timing is what I find so baffling. During this one month of the political calendar in a four- or five-year period, there is a lot of uncertainty because there is a Cabinet coming to the end of its mandate and there is a Dáil being elected with a new mandate. A Dáil was dissolved and the only people here at that time would have been the Seanad until its mandate ended. I feel that it is a long contract and there was a lack of scrutiny. I am not trying to be accusatory at all but we are now living with the consequences. It is profoundly frustrating this has gone on for so long and we must go back to the consequences and the difficulties it causes a garda at a checkpoint where he or she stops a member of the public with a car without a valid NCT. There could be someone messing around with the NCT, cancelling appointments and trying to abuse the system, which we know is an issue. What does the garda do if they stop any one of the 500,000 motorists where the vehicle is not carrying a valid NCT? Are they to say the driver is technically breaking the law and can get three penalty points on their licence or is the garda supposed to turn a blind eye? This has consequences beyond road safety because it has caused difficulties for the gardaí. With road safety, unfortunately, we know that road fatalities are up which is deeply regrettable. I have no doubt the pandemic had an impact on that and there are other factors such as narcotics and drink driving but it goes to show how the failure of Applus+ and the RSA as the agency with responsibility for the area has led to an unfortunate outcome.

Mr. Sam Waide:

May I answer the rest of the Deputy's question? On his request for the timelines of the contract and to politics, I am here to run an organisation and I have taken over contracts. I can answer about the timelines of the contract. It was in the public domain and followed EU public procurement rules. We can provide the details of other companies which bid for the contract. We are happy to provide that information if it will help the committee.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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That would be helpful. Thank you.

Ms Paula Hilman:

To my knowledge there have been three contracts for the NCT, all for ten years. For very significant infrastructural projects such as that, a contract would be unusual in the private sphere but in the public sphere, such as tolling, it might follow a similar level where an organisation has to invest very significantly in fleets or maybe buildings around the country. I do not think it is unusual in the public sphere but we can clarify that.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I agree but the operational risks would be significantly higher with something like this when queues could occur. You will not have that in tolling or other aspects. You will get them with NCT when failures occur. Queues grow rapidly and we come to very serious road safety risks.

Mr. Sam Waide:

I welcome the challenge on the contractual aspects. That is the reason for the review of the contract.

That is something that will provide not only a review of the existing arrangements but also, most importantly, going forward, it will set out what could and can be addressed within the existing contract and how to address it in a new contract as and when a new contract will be concluded with a provider. It is beneficial for all.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I am going to ask a few questions myself. Apologies, but I had a previous engagement that I could not get out of. I thank Deputy Duncan Smith for taking the Chair. I read the witnesses' opening statements in advance. I apologise if any of the points I raise have been raised already. It tends to happen at committees regularly. I am usually here for the whole meeting.

The opening statements were all very good but there was not an awful lot of new information. It was good for me. A lot of it I already knew and updated figures were provided. I think the point we have all made, and one that I have heard since I have been back, is that one road death is too many. Each road death, in human loss terms, is priceless and enormous. The witnesses have also said that it costs between €3 million and €4 million. That is an enormous amount of money. We have in excess of 100 road deaths this year and I know money gets swallowed up very easily in road projects, but we could do a lot with €300 million or €400 million to improve driver performance and education, road surfaces, junctions, bad roads, the cutting of hedges and sorting out deer. Whatever it happens to be, there is so much we could be doing as opposed to spending it on fatalities, which are absolutely priceless. As the witnesses have said, there is an outlay there.

Again, I think all of us tend to focus on fatalities, but the national rehabilitation hospital is not too far from where I live and I know there are many people who have enormously life-changing injuries. There are cases of full paralysis, the loss of use of limbs and the loss of limbs. We all need to realise that every time we get into a car, we are driving a potentially dangerous weapon. I do not want to overstate that but cars, particularly bigger cars, can be dangerous. The bigger the car, the safer you might be inside it, but the more damage you may inflict on whatever you might hit. There was a time when I was growing up when everybody seemed to be in Ford Fiestas and Fiat 127s. Little cars were hitting little cars. Now much bigger cars are hitting much bigger cars. The impact can be that much greater because a much bigger mass is hitting a much bigger mass.

One of the things I want to touch on is why, at this stage, we do not place more emphasis on the technological aspects. There was a time when we could not track anyone doing anything. Now, we all have mobile phones. Everyone is being tracked every minute of the day, everywhere we go. I drive that six-minute stretch - and I know it is exactly a six-minute stretch - on the M7. I have to make sure I am still in it. The big cameras are there telling me when I am in it and out of it, and I know that compliance rates have gone from 60-something percent to 97%. Why do we not have these between almost every junction on our motorway network? I am not convinced the motorways are the problem, but there are large volumes of people doing very significant speeds. You can be doing very close to the target of 120 km/h. You might even be doing 120 km/h or 121 km/h and there are a lot of cars going past you, pretty much all the time. I do not do a lot of motorway driving. I try to cycle here as much as I can and I live relatively close to here. When I am on motorways, I see a lot of people driving a good bit over the speed limit.

I know Professor Cusack is very familiar with the Stillorgan dual carriageway. Most of the witnesses will know the road outside UCD between RTÉ and Stillorgan village. There is a 60 km/h speed limit, yet we have these boreens with grass down the middle of them that still have 80 km/h signs on them. I could never get my head around that. I know it might not be physically possible to do it, but I do not know how anyone ever thought it was okay to have a sign up saying that. I just wonder how much engagement the RSA has with the Garda and the local authorities. I am the former chair of a transportation and strategic policy committee in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown. I know about engagement with Garda on double yellow lines, speed limits and putting in various junctions, traffic lights and all the rest of it. Séamus Brennan was the Deputy for my area who served as Minister for Transport. I recall talking to him about road deaths. He was asked if he was sure about introducing penalty points and was told it was a very brave, courageous and mad decision. He brought in the three-offences policy and, very rapidly, the number of road deaths and injuries fell significantly. There are many more offences now and I get that. It is not that we are accepting it now, but we do not seem to have the same energy and vigour for tackling the issue.

There are a lot of people who are driving too fast. Why do we not have technology in all cars? I know there are car insurance companies that do use technology. A friend of mine, whose children now have a car between them, told me he gets a report on his phone notifying him there have been no infringements and nothing bad has happened. I think the company is called Boxymo. There are other companies doing it, but I am just trying to advertise them. Why are we not incentivising people to have technology in their cars that tells them when they are going too fast and which slows them down when they drive into towns, villages and housing estates? That technology must exist. If we had a gadget in most people's cars that prevented them from going above 120 km/h and slowed them down to 80 km/h, 60 km/h and 50 km/h going into urban areas, we would not need all these enforcers standing at the side of roads and the speed vans. We would not need that if we had the technology in the cars. We all have technology in our mobile phones. Why are we not pushing that more, technology-wise? We know the average speed cameras works. Maybe they are very expensive and perhaps that is why they are not being rolled out, but if the technology was in the cars we would not need to be building ramps all over the place to slow people down. Most people argue that ramps are not particularly good for the suspension and the light settings. We are building ramps all over the place to slow people down when in fact you could drive in, turn off a certain road onto another road and slow down. Is the technology there and can it be harnessed? Why are we not pushing technology a lot more? In his opening statement, Professor Cusack referenced alcohol interlock technology. Could we not have skin sensors on steering wheels that detect the alcohol level in people's systems from the night before, or whatever it is, and prevent them from driving? Is that all too expensive? Why do we not do it?

Professor Denis Cusack:

We have the technology in our cars already. In fact, in my opening statement-----

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that not every car has it, but lots of cars have it.

Professor Denis Cusack:

Most modern cars have it. We have speed limiters. As well as that, in the modern cars there is an indicator that notifies you when you are travelling at 50 km/h, 30 km/h, 80 km/h and 100 km/h. Maybe the first thing to do is to start with education on a voluntary basis. I use the speed limiter as much as I can because, clearly, I do not want to be found over the speed limit. Sometimes, attention levels can drop. I wonder whether there is some simple way of getting people to use, on an initial basis, the speed limiter that is already in many modern cars, coupled with the little speed sign that comes up in most modern cars to tell you that-----

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Can we not get technology that just slows people down?

Professor Denis Cusack:

In the next ten to 15 years, I am quite confident we will have cars that will not start if you are over a certain alcohol limit. I feel we will have cars that will have speed limiters with, of course, the override function. I presume everybody knows how to override their speed limiter. If you have an emergency and you need to temporarily increase speed, there is a way to do it. I do not know if the members want me to say what it is.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Probably not.

Professor Denis Cusack:

I do not want to encourage people to override the speed limiter. The technology is there, but it is really about educating people. The other thing about speed limits, and I said it at the ministerial meeting, is that we have to make sure they are proportionate and that there is a buy-in. On the RSA figures, if I may steal some of its thunder, the surveys show that three quarters of drivers exceed the 50 km/h limit in those areas, and one third exceed the 100 km/h limit. It may be that they are driving at 105 km/h or 110 km/h, but nevertheless they are over they speed limit. Already, we do not have a buy-in. I would suggest we need to look very carefully at it. I agree with Deputy Danny Healy-Rae that just because the speed limit is 80 km/h does not mean that you have to travel at 80 km/h. Likewise, if we are going to introduce a speed limit of 80 km/h, it has to make sense for that road. If it comes into disrepute and people think it is ridiculous and the limit should be 100 km/h or vice versa, it will not work.

The other point relates to medical evidence. Somebody asked me a few days ago about the 30 km/h limit, if there is evidence that it works and whether it should be introduced in every city. Again, it should be restricted to areas where there is high housing density. A study from Edinburgh published in one of the medical journals recently showed it is effective. In fact, I think representatives of the Garda are going to Scotland. Some of its speed limiting is working. You do not need to be a doctor or an orthopaedic surgeon to know that if you are hit by a car at 50 km/h, your chances of survival are much less than when you are hit by a car at 30 km/h or 20 km/h. A lot of it is there, but it has to be evidence-based and proportionate, and it has to have public confidence and buy-in.

The message is also up to people. I have colleagues who work out in the national rehabilitation hospital on Rochestown Avenue. We may have to shock the young men that, and I say this very carefully, sometimes there is something almost worse than death and that is they may never walk again, play sports, or have a relationship with their boyfriend or girlfriend again because of the catastrophic life-shattering injuries sustained. Deputy O'Rourke mentioned deterrents. We have to took at this. This is why the campaigns over the years and Michael Roland, Sarah O'Connor, and Brian Farrell in the RSA have done a tremendous job getting that message across. Sometimes it has to be shocking. There is evidence that shows young people do not respond to being chastised, but sometimes a shocking message may be the way. In the end, it has to be carrot and stick. Let us use the technology sensibly and proportionately. Why wait until we have legislation?

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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It can be a win-win. If you agree to take a box in your car, your insurance company may be much more willing to insure you as it is tracking you and can see when and what kind of driving you do. I drive about 6,000 km a year. I am not-----

Professor Denis Cusack:

And that is where the insurance federation-----

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Then the insurance company realises I am not driving very much so it decides maybe I am not as experienced and I am saying, "Hold on now, I have been doing it a long time." There is almost a disincentive to drive less.

Professor Denis Cusack:

The insurance federation is an important partner. Again, without going into-----

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I used to be involved with the AXA road safety stuff and it used to go out to the Royal Marine Hotel in Dún Laoghaire. They had mothers there who had lost children and people who had got a car on their first day. I saw transition year students, not just girls, but mostly girls, but also guys coming out in tears afterwards. It was shocking. Then the students went outside and saw the fire services cutting a car apart and taking out a mock-up person from a crash and so on. It hit home but we have lost some of that. There was that awful ad campaign years ago where the car bounces over the fence and hits the young child in the back garden.

Professor Denis Cusack:

I mention An Garda Síochána as well. The RSA has done a great job. Human behaviour is such that when we know somebody might be down the road enforcing the law with a penalty, we are more likely to comply. Regarding fixed cameras, I travelled in Germany recently. We all slowed down because we knew there was a camera around the corner. Sometimes human behaviour is such that we actually need to know the long arm of law is there.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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People have great cars and those might be able to do 200 km/h. There may not be a huge difference between doing 120 km/h or 130 km/h as a speed on a motorway but I would like to see buy-in of the 50 km/h limit in urban areas before we bring it down to the 30 km/h. I know the turning circles on the M50 when you come off the motorway are supposed to be 30 km/h. I have never seen anyone do 30 km/h on them. You are slowing down from 100 km/h to 80 km/h, to 50 km/h to 30 km/h. It is hard-----

Professor Denis Cusack:

That is at junction 10.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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It is the Red Cow and all these junctions where you loop onto or off the M50 where all these speed limits are very low. There are so many opportunities for technology to keep an eye on all of us in such a way that we do not take as many risks as some people are taking.

Mr. Sam Waide:

As to the technology, and as we mentioned insurance companies earlier, there are companies who incentivise drivers, particularly young drivers, in their driving behaviour. When I say incentivise, they then reduce their premiums as a result. Earlier in the committee, I openly and publicly asked the insurance sector and industry to step forward. I acknowledge there is a certain competitive advantage or commercial nature to those various propositions which insurance companies have. However, this is road safety and societal benefit and gain. Most importantly, this is to reduce the number of families who have lost loved ones and who are seriously injured. As was pointed out, it is not just about fatalities but also about serious injuries. There is the insurance sector role that can and should be played in a more proactive way in regard to those incentives.

I referred earlier to behavioural apps. I know this because I have downloaded one myself. I cannot share the details due to general data protection regulations, GDPR, but it helps improve driving behaviour. That is something the RSA is exploring in terms of how to encourage people, especially young people, to use apps in that regard. Something that came up quite recently when RSA representatives were in attendance at an EU member country workshop and discussion was technology, but not in the cars. I agree with Professor Cusack. The technology predominantly already exists in new cars. It is technology on the roads that I am referring to. I am excited about it because geofencing is a solution which is being talked about at the moment at an EU level. It is being talked about by our delivery agencies and particularly within transport and Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, for new roads or roads that are being upgraded to have that geofencing ability. That actually takes the stress out of driving for individuals in that it automatically-----

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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That is what I was trying to suggest, that a driver would be automatically-----

Mr. Sam Waide:

It supersedes and leaps beyond what has probably now become a little outdated and that is the speed limiter on cars. This is a new technology. It is being discussed at an EU level. There is the opportunity for Ireland to be a leader, not a follower, in this area, and I would advocate and welcome support to explore these type of solutions. It automates so that whatever the speed limits are going to be, either currently or in the future, it makes our roads safer.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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That was my whole point. I want to get to the stage that you get into your car, you drive, and if the speed limit is 50 km/h, your car cannot go past 50 km/h. If you turn off a particular road into a housing estate, the speed limit is down to 30 km/h. If you go onto a dual carriageway, it is up to 60 km/h, and whatever if you go onto a motorway. It keeps you in check and does not let you speed. I get that there is an override if you come across something you have to overtake or something, but by and large, 99.9% of the time, we all behave better when we are being watched and maybe do not behave as well when we are not. That applies to many different behavioural issues, not just driving. There is so much technology already there. On the M7 cameras, are they RSA cameras or Garda cameras? Who gets the money out of them? TII or An Garda Síochána? Who issues the penalties?

Mr. Thomas Murphy:

It goes back to the State.

Mr. Sam Waide:

The average speed cameras are not about generating revenue; it is about changing behaviour. I sense from the Leas-Chathaoirleach's perspective and that of the committee the point about things not happening. Things are happening. TII, An Garda Síochána, and ourselves launched the average speed cameras last year on the M7. I would welcome a prioritisation and acceleration of more of that technology and infrastructure.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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What is the blockage to doing more?

Ms Paula Hilman:

TII actually paid for those. The funding is the issue. It is Government funding. Scotland is a very comparable country in terms of the size of its police service and roads policing numbers. Deputy Dillon was talking about earlier.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Rural, urban, and all the rest of it.

Ms Paula Hilman:

There are rural and urban areas and a very similar population. A large group of us are going over to Scotland next month with representatives of the Minister for Justice and the Minister for Transport. How it works there is that there is a government strategy that the police then operationalise with cameras. We have had a presentation from TII about having the average speed for longer distances across the country. Again, we had a very healthy debate earlier about the role of An Garda Síochána and enforcement but we could see that where we have the average speed cameras, it slowed people down. The motorways are some of our safest roads. It is right to explain why that particular area was chosen. That was a section of motorway where there were a lot of collisions because of hailstones. Where it is geographically causes a lot of weather conditions and collisions happen. That is why that particular area was chosen. We see it in the Dublin Port tunnel as well where the compliance is even higher at about 98%. Where we have the two average speeds, we see that and that is something that really could be helpful. Also if the cameras were spread out over longer distances as well, it would be helpful because then it slows people down.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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It would almost have to be junction to junction because if you get on at the Naas road, get off at the Dunkettle interchange, and you have a 20-minute stop in the Barack Obama Plaza or wherever, you then say you can pump it up because you have had a 20-minute break.

It probably needs to be camera to camera, from junction to junction, to prevent people thinking that, as long as they do the three hours, the lessons or whatever, they will be okay.

Mr. Sam Waide:

A point was made that what is preventing more average speed cameras is a lack of funding, and I want to clarify that point. The challenge is funding. As I said earlier, I had a very positive meeting yesterday with the Minister for Justice, the Garda Commissioner, the assistant commissioner, the Minister for Transport and the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers. It was a very positive meeting and the issue of average speed cameras was one of the measures committed to. If we can identify the additional funding to implement more average speed cameras, that will assist.

Mr. Michael Rowland:

The technology the Leas-Chathaoirleach mentioned does exist. Mr. Waide referred to it; it is called "intelligent speed adaptation". It is compulsory in all new-model cars from 2022 and for new models after that from July 2024. Off the top of my head, it will reduce the number of fatalities by about 20%, according to the research and evidence.

In the recent review of speed limits, there have been recommendations for reductions in speed limits but there will also be recommendations on the use of technology, such as both average speed cameras and static cameras, that will be used to enforce speed limits.

The most recent research we carried out was through Dr. Kiran Sarma of University of Galway. Professor Cusack referred to it earlier. Approximately 50% of pedestrians hit by a car travelling at 60 km/h will die, while 29% of pedestrians hit by a car travelling at 50 km/h will die. That is reduced dramatically at 30 km/h, where just 5% of pedestrians hit by a car will die.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I think Mr. Rowland is absolutely correct and, on the other end of it, if we all drove to Cork at 10 miles per hour, it would take us an awful lot longer and there would probably be fewer accidents. There is a balance to be struck. If I saw everybody driving at 50 km/h in the 50 km/h zones, that would be a great achievement, because at the moment they are not. Speed limits on very few of the roads within Dublin City Council's territory are higher than 50 km/h. The speed limit on a road I used to know in Mount Merrion, Foster Avenue, used to be 60 km/h and it was reduced to 50 km/h, and I would not be sure that everyone drives at 50 km/h on it all day long. The same is true of Mount Anville Road, which has a big hill on it. These are roads I know well but I could give plenty of examples. A lot of people who drive on the Stillorgan dual carriageway at 10 o'clock on a nice, sunny Sunday morning will think they should be able to drive at more than 60 km/h. Where it is safe, perhaps at different times of the day, I would like to see something different. Maybe at 10 p.m. on a nice, dry evening, 60 km/h, 70 km/h or 80 km/h should be tolerated on a wide dual carriageway with low levels of traffic while, at the same time, other road limits could be much lower. We need buy-in because if we tell everyone they have to drive at 30 km/h and everyone ignores it, they might just as easily go to 60 km/h or 65 km/h. There is a challenge there and it is about road conditions, education and so on.

Accidents seem to be happening in rural areas, with younger people, mostly male. Is that correct? Where are accidents and fatalities happening? We spend all this money on high-visibility policing, speed cameras on the M8 and so on. We were going to our party's think-in in Horse and Jockey and there was a big speed camera making sure we all knew they were there and that was fine, but a lot of accidents seem to happen off peak, in darkness. Maybe it is mostly older cars that have not passed the national car test, NCT, or maybe they are drivers who do not have full licences. In order that we can remind everybody, who is most at risk and where are they most at risk?

Mr. Michael Rowland:

A total of 45% of fatalities occur between 8 p.m. and 8 a.m. at weekends, while 46% of fatalities occur on a Friday or Sunday and seven in ten fatalities occur on rural roads with speed limits of 80 km/h or greater. Men feature more frequently in those fatalities. We mentioned the younger people who have been killed on our roads. A lot of those younger people were passengers in vehicles driven by others. In recent years, there has been a gradual increase in the number of accidents involving pedestrians and motorcyclists and as of today, 32 pedestrians have been killed this year.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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What about cyclists?

Mr. Michael Rowland:

I think five cyclists have been killed, including one person using an e-bike.

Mr. Sam Waide:

The number of accidents involving cyclists has reduced.

Mr. Michael Rowland:

On average, there are about nine cyclist fatalities per year, but in the past two years, the number has been down to about five.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Are they generally younger people?

Mr. Michael Rowland:

One quarter of those killed this year were between the ages of 16 and 25.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Three quarters, therefore, were over the age of 25.

Mr. Michael Rowland:

Yes.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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That figure would not be the same for the entire driver base.

Mr. Michael Rowland:

No.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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It is a much higher percentage, therefore, for that cohort than other cohorts.

Ms Sarah O'Connor:

The figure this year is up substantially on recent years.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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The message we need to get out to every household, driver and pedestrian relates to where they are most at risk. It is in the evening, at the weekend and in rural areas, predominantly. That does not mean they are safe in the middle of Dublin city, but they will be relatively safer-----

Ms Sarah O'Connor:

That is why the "slow down" message is so important. We have been working on our communications strategy for the coming years and people will be sick of hearing us tell them to slow down because speed is a factor in so many collisions. The human body is designed such that the higher the speed, the greater the impact will be, and Mr. Rowland has given the tangible figures behind that. Not only does it mean we can reduce the impact if we are involved in a collision but it will reduce the potential for that to happen because we will give ourselves more reaction time. It is also about the weather conditions and the conditions of the road. None of us is driving on a dream road; we have to drive on the roads that exist. Even if we had more funding, we would have to take that into account. That aspect is very important and people will be sick of us saying it, but we do so for good reason. It is the right thing to be saying. We all need to change our relationship with speed.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I accept that fatalities constitute a very small number of the overall driving cohort, but I think the figure we were given last year was that 27% of fatalities had not been wearing seatbelts. Is that still the case? Is there still serious non-compliance with the use of seatbelts or is it just that the people who end up in accidents are the very few people who are not wearing them? Is the Garda still looking for people not wearing seatbelts and finding them?

Ms Paula Hilman:

Very much so. It is one of our lifesaver offences. The number of detections has decreased from the 2019 figure and we have been looking at how we can increase the number of those detections. We have talked about technology in vehicles, which has undoubtedly had an impact. It used to be that only the driver's seat had an alarm for someone not wearing a seatbelt, whereas that is now also the case for the passenger and rear seats. I talked earlier about how we have a fleet of unmarked vehicles for the detection of people not wearing seatbelts. Other jurisdictions use safety cameras to detect a lack of seatbelt use, so there is potential for that. It is one of our lifesaver offences. When we send out our roads policing operational plan, seatbelt use is covered on a weekly basis. We also have specific campaigns for young people and on our schools programme, and even that encouragement of children as passengers to their parents helps. So far this year, we have detected 3,800 people not wearing their seatbelt.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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A lot of the questions I had intended to ask have been asked. I thank the witnesses from the RSA for their input.

Can the RSA provide an overview of future awareness campaigns that are planned? Has the RSA's budget been increased in the context of the rise in fatalities? What types of campaigns is it hitting? I listened to Professor Cusack speak about the hard-hitting shock element for those who are in the most high-risk demographic, that is, those under 45. As Mr. Rowland alluded to, we have seen a huge increase in road deaths among 16 to 35-year-olds. To the Leas-Chathaoirleach's point, will the campaigns in future have that hard-hitting element? Certainly, there is no excuse for a passenger or a driver not to wear a seatbelt, but we see that nearly a third of all fatalities are among people not wearing a seatbelt. Previous contributors talked about distracted driving and drink-driving. It is really important we get that message back into the public domain. I would like to get a better understanding as to how we do that.

Ms Sarah O'Connor:

I will take the Deputy through a number of the engagements that are already planned and where we hope to upweight things. I have mentioned the last matter he discussed first because Mr. Rowland's point about the social acceptance of drink-driving and the diminishment we have seen there of 10% across recent years is a particular point of concern. We have a planned campaign for December this coming year. It is a very hard-hitting campaign. Many members will be familiar with Gillian Treacy, who is a board member of the RSA, and the loss of her lovely little boy, Ciarán, on the roads. It is a very hard-hitting campaign without necessarily being gory or visually disturbing. It is about the loss of Ciarán and what that meant in terms of drink-driving. That is one campaign in which we are very significantly investing this December, and the Department and the Minister are supporting us in that. We all believe that that is of fundamental importance. That is one of the points we would make to people.

There are campaigns that are hard-hitting and in some instances, as Professor Cusack mentioned, about serious injuries. Those are really important. We are looking at reinstating one of our campaigns from a number of years ago. It is the Crushed Lives series, where somebody speaks straight to the camera about their experience of a serious injury, a brain injury or a life-altering injury. That is key. That really lands with people. The tracking research we do on an ongoing basis around the effectiveness of our campaigns shows that campaigns based on serious injury and personal testimony are the most impactful. With that in mind, for example, we undertook an excellent campaign earlier this year with Imogen Cotter, whom Mr. Waide mentioned, an amazing professional cyclist who took evidence of what the result of serious injury was like in her case. It is a really clear call to action, that is, I am a person on a bike, I have a life to live, slow down, and if you do so, we can share the road safely. We ran that ad campaign predominantly on digital channels earlier on. We believe in it to the hilt and we hope and plan with the Department to invest in that piece and to get that out there in the coming weeks and months.

We are also looking at some experiential education pieces. We have an amazing campaign based on taking people through using 3D hardware. Sorry, I cannot remember the name of the thing you put on your head. I think it is called-----

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Is it virtual reality stuff?

Ms Sarah O'Connor:

Yes. It is all about the consequences of alcohol. We want to create a new experiential piece all about the consequences of drug-driving and to be able to roll that out early next year.

Then, of course, as I mentioned, there is speed, and it is speed from multiple different angles, whether it will be the campaign around urban speed, which is produced, finished, done and dusted and ready to go out in quarter 1 of next year, or whether it is around speed on an 80 km/h rural road campaign. We are planning on that. We have been discussing the production budget for that with the Department and have had really positive, engaged support across the Minister, the Department and others for that to be ready to go. Then, when we get those campaigns really right, we track them and make sure they are going to the right audience, the right platform, with the right degree of financial support behind them and that they are working. We tweak them as they go, if necessary, and we get a really good shelf life out of them. We get three to five years because they really do work and we make sure they work. That is what guides the work, and we can guarantee that that is what guides us day to day to make sure that when we get investment and funding, it is spent the right way and can really have an impact.

That is touching on just a few of the pieces that are planned.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms O'Connor for that, and-----

Professor Denis Cusack:

I am rather naughty; I throw it back to the legislators as well.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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That was actually my next question. What else can we do for the witnesses, and what would they do if they were the Minister?

Professor Denis Cusack:

There are the polydrug offences. As regards the citizens' assembly, I am giving quite a deal of thought to finalising what I will say on Saturday, but legalising or decriminalising certain categories of drugs will come up. That may be a reality. In the discussions, whatever the recommendations of the assembly or the considerations of the Oireachtas, it should be always remembered that it is about health, criminality and road safety. It should be remembered that road safety is one component, just as we have alcohol in younger people and alcohol in driving. If, for example, cannabis or possession of cocaine is in some way legalised or decriminalised, it should be remembered, without saying whether it should or should not be, and I am not proposing one or the other, to put it into that context as legislators. It will come up.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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On that point, should there be harsher penalties for the level of intoxication, be it alcohol or drug use, those who are found to be-----

Professor Denis Cusack:

I would put that in logically. We have one of the most complex intoxicated driving laws in the world. We have blood alcohol levels at 20 mg, 50 mg, 80 mg, 100 mg and 150 mg, depending on the type of driver and the level. The logic-----

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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And even the type of vehicle, whether it is commercial or whatever else and so on.

Professor Denis Cusack:

Yes, because levels for drivers of commercial vehicles are down at 20 mg. Whatever level you are at, however, the higher the level, if you are found guilty on a prosecution, the greater the penalty in terms of fine and disqualification. As regards driving with alcohol and cocaine, many gardaí will say there is so much work involved and there is no greater penalty for that. I proposed a few years ago - and this is coming up again - that if, for example, you have 81 mg of alcohol in your blood and also cannabis over the limit, that should bump you up to the next level. It is very simple to sell that message to the public. It could be complicated legally and technically, but the message is that the more intoxicated you are in the combination of alcohol or drugs, or alcohol and drugs, the higher the penalty should be because you are putting yourself and others at greater risk by being impaired. That is one of the legislative enabler group's commitments.

Also, there are one or two little anomalies in the drug-driving penalties which I will not go into today. They are legally technical. Medically, in all this I want to get the message across to everybody for healthy driving. It is my duty as a doctor to say that if you are on medications, by and large, do not worry. If you are taking your medications without being impaired, even if they show up positive at a roadside test, you will not be prosecuted. Please stay healthy and stay driving in a healthy way. Perhaps the legislators could help us.

As well as that, I plead for our gardaí and others to have the funding. If members want to concentrate on something, I hope I am not out of turn in saying speeding should be the big target for us in Ireland to tackle immediately. If there is a bit of money to be put into that, I ask that that be done. The turnaround is about €3 million per person. We do not want to count death and injuries in terms of money, but if you want a financially balanced book, the money you put into decreasing speeding, saving lives and fewer injuries will pay back the State many times over. It is really worth it. If a good economist could be found to row in with the financial argument for our two Ministers in finance and public expenditure, I think we could sell that.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I am very conscious of the time, which is pretty much up. I thank all the witnesses for being here. Is there anything else we can do for then, and is there anything else, if they were the Minister in the morning, that they would do that we are not doing now?

Mr. Sam Waide:

I have got support and commitment from Ministers, so I am satisfied with that.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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If you became a benign dictator in the morning, there would not be other things you would do.

Mr. Sam Waide:

No.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Very good. Professor Cusack, if you could wave a magic wand, what would you do?

Professor Denis Cusack:

I have said my bit. I would do those things immediately. I think-----

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Speeding, speeding, speeding is your number one issue.

Professor Denis Cusack:

Yes, for the moment, and watch out for the drugs and alcohol and driving and just keep the message. We are going to have to come back before the committee. Members will probably see me and the others year after year and we will all say, "But you said that last year." That is actually part of the message.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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It is still true, though.

Professor Denis Cusack:

We have to keep saying it because it keeps happening.

However, let us be optimistic. I am an optimist at heart. I think we have the tools. I think we can do it, and we can get more people at home this Christmas.

Ms Paula Hilman:

We have also talked about technology, and that funding and clarity. I am currently overseeing the procurement of the new safety camera contract for the next five years. That sits with the Department of Justice, but there is then overlap with the Department of Transport. That clarity-----

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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That is the GoSafe.

Ms Paula Hilman:

Yes, the GoSafe.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Not the bodycam.

Ms Paula Hilman:

No, the safety camera - GoSafe. The procurement for that sits with us in An Garda Síochána. We are looking at that. I have a programme board of the RSA, TII and all of our partners on that. We are future proofing it so we can detect other offences, have average speed and have static cameras. We need that clarity of planning and financing for what this Government wants from safety cameras in the State. We then operationalise that. We have support for further recruitment from our own Minister. Deputy Dillon spoke to me earlier about resourcing. We are committed to road safety as a policing service for the State. We look forward to more people joining so we can allocate more to that.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Equally more technology so you do not have to use these valuable gardaí.

Ms Paula Hilman:

Yes.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Cannon made a point about red light driving. I could show Ms Hilman certain junctions, and the State could make a lot of money quickly out of people doing red lights. There is one at the top of Eglinton Road. Every day, at every light sequence change cars are flying up Eglinton Road heading for Milltown and going through on the red - not just the orange, the red. I am cycling through, and I am watching it. They are going through on the red. Plenty of other junctions are the same and it is not acceptable.

Professor Denis Cusack:

I would like to say that I have thanked my staff, our colleagues and the Ministers. As part of the partnership I would like to thank the officials within the Department of Transport who also put in a huge amount of work. It is not often we mention our civil servants and officials. They too are part of our partnership. I acknowledge, as I think we all do, that it really is a partnership.

Ms Sarah O'Connor:

I want to mention two things if that is okay. First, we have been having discussions with the Department of Transport, and we will have follow-up discussions with the Department of Education about compulsory road safety education in schools. We provide extensive lifelong education from our Check It Fits service, where we support parents to make sure their car seat is appropriate, right up to our Mobility Matters programme for adults in later life. We have significant programmes available. These are either teacher training, where teachers deliver them, or where we provide them to schools. However, support behind compulsory road safety education would be formative. If we are looking forward to reaching Vision Zero by 2050, which is zero deaths and serious injuries on our roads, we have to make sure that the children of today become the safe road users of tomorrow. The point about continuous road safety education when delivered in that really informed, age appropriate way is that it creates people who are primed to accept road safety messages from An Garda Síochána and the RSA for the rest of their lives. It is an important investment. Second, and I will probably be pestering everyone about this, as director with responsibility for external affairs, is that the committee members are also leaders in their communities. We would like to get out to everyone, be it at ministerial level, to Deputies, Senators and councillors, to help figure out how they can show that leadership. Part of what we have sadly discovered in the past few weeks is that people are now talking about road safety. We have to continue that. We need to have a national conversation about road safety. We each need to identify one behaviour we will take on, tackle and change. Politicians can help us to do that. We thank the committee for today, and it should not be surprised if we are emailing and calling, and calling in as best we can.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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In conclusion, I thank all of you for being here; Mr. Waide and his team, Mr. Rowland and Ms O'Connor, Professor Cusack, assistant commissioner Hilman, and Superintendent Murphy. Obviously, all committees are here to raise and articulate problems and concerns. However we acknowledge, and I certainly do, the enormous improvements in road safety figures over the years. I think 1972 was one of the worst years ever with more than 600 deaths, at a time when there was probably half or one-third the number of cars on the road. Road standards were admittedly probably not as good. There was probably a lot more drink driving than there is now. At the same time, relatively speaking, there are a lot more people driving, but one death is absolutely horrific for the family, friends and colleagues and the people involved. To see figures going the wrong way is disappointing. We had our opening statement last week, and it was amended because somebody had died that morning. We have unfortunately had five more over the weekend. Every time I hear of one I think it is one too many. I know the witnesses feel the same. It is what they do for a living and it is what they do every day of the week. What they are doing is a vocation to a certain extent. We appreciate it. It is our job to make sure we get the message out to remind people. It is night-time, it is rural and it is weekends. That is not to say it is not happening everywhere else, but they are the biggest factors. The biggest risk factors are night-time, in the dark, weekends from Friday to Sunday, speeding, intoxication by both drugs and alcohol and the simple things like wearing seat-belts and not using your mobile phone. These are all the evidence based fatalities, as the witnesses have said. We must all pay a little more attention. Every bit we do is good. Every bit extra we do is better. Let us all hope we have an improvement and reduction in the figures for the next three months of this year - October, November and December - and equally into 2024.

I thank the witnesses for all they are doing, and we will no doubt see them back here again.