Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I welcome the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, today. We will discuss various aspects of Housing for All but particularly the cost rental tenant in situ purchase scheme, which is the purpose of this meeting. I call on the Minister to give his opening statement.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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If it is in order, I believe we all have read the statement. Given that we have less time - to be fair, it is not the Minister's fault - we should take the statement as read. I also suggest we give each member five minutes rather than seven, which means everybody should get in.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I count 11 members. I am sure everyone will wish to speak. The Minister has to be in the Chamber at 5.10 p.m., as does Deputy Cian O'Callaghan. That is 50 minutes, so we are talking about having three minutes each, or four minutes each maximum. If members want to go with three or four minutes, I am happy to do that.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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If people want to ask questions, that is fine. I take it that members have read the statement.

Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Aire and the Department for the opening statement. The tenant in situscheme has worked spectacularly well for anyone who has been able to avail of it. I want to commend Dublin City Council on having piloted it a number of years ago. I welcome the fact that it has been put on a permanent footing with the Department. The numbers refer to the numbers of houses but do not reflect the number of individuals who avoid homelessness as a consequence of the house being acquired. The fact that it is being extended to the affordable, cost-rental tenancies is very welcome, but the numbers I read in the statement are significantly lower.

Will the Minister comment on how he and the Department see that progressing and scaling up? We still have an affordability crisis, notwithstanding the significant funding that is going into the delivery of affordable homes to purchase and to rent. From a Dublin city perspective, where we already have a high percentage of private rental tenancies, the tenant in situscheme is incredibly valuable in adding security of tenure, real permanent homes to people who have been renting and, for a long period, who are embedded in those communities, with children going to school, family and so on. Will the Minister comment on the extension and scaling up of the affordable cost rental tenant in situscheme? Will he give us an update on the situation with Dublin City Council? Obviously, Coilín O'Reilly has stepped aside. What is the process to replace the head of housing for Dublin City Council looking like?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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The tenantin situscheme has been very successful so far by any fair estimation. I will give the most up-to-date figures I have. More than 800 sales have concluded completely. That is not just sale agreed but closed. We have approximately another 1,300 that are sale agreed and going through the conveyancing process. That conveyancing process has to happen. I project that, this year, we could spend €300 million on the tenantin situscheme, housing assistance payments, HAP, the rental accommodation scheme, RAS, and tenants on the social housing list. I intend to extend it into next year.

On cost-rental tenant in situ, as the Senator knows, I have made changes to cost rental in general, with a threshold of €66,000 net income for Dublin and €59,000 elsewhere. We brought in the secure tenancy affordable scheme, STAR, which is in place now and will unlock much more cost rental right across our cities. That is happening. To answer the Senator's question about the number of cost-rental cases, there are actually a little more than she would have seen in the opening statement. We have approximately 139 cases in play across 29 local authorities. That is for cost rental for people above the social housing limits. We estimate that we spent €10.25 million on this. I expect that we will spend €24 million on cost rental alone under this specific scheme.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I am sorry, I have to interrupt. There are three-minute slots. Direct questions are very helpful.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister for the information. I welcome every single one of the properties that is both acquired and sale agreed. We have been calling for the scheme to be reopened and then improved for quite some time. I would like to run through some of the feedback that we are getting from tenants and landlords. They are not questions but I am genuinely putting these forward because I think they are areas that could be improved for both social and cost rental housing.

Some local authorities are doing exceptionally well. Other local authorities are very slow and we are hearing of significant resistance. We need to find a mechanism to ensure that good local authority activity remains consistent right across the way. The sensible, flexible approach from Dublin City Council is a little slower but is still good. If that could be uniformly implemented across local authorities, that would be important.

It is taking a long time, at six, seven, eight or, in some cases, nine months, in the cases that I am aware of. Some of that is because there are real staffing challenges. Local authorities sometimes have to take staff from other areas of staffing. That is really challenging. Even where they allocate the extra staff, they lose somewhere else. I urge the Minister to look at that, particularly if it is likely for the scheme to expand. I would like to see it expand.

There is a huge problem with communication. Landlords tell us over and over again that it is hard to get information from the local authority. Sometimes, that can be the difference between a landlord hanging in for another month or two while conveyancing is completed or withdrawing from the scheme. We have some cases of landlords withdrawing.

We also need to allow local authorities to give some information to tenants. I know that, strictly speaking, it is a matter between landlord and tenant. Surely, there has to be some mechanism, without breaching GDPR, to state that basic information is still being processed. It is not being given in most cases, even in the good local authorities.

I would like the Minister to reconsider Focus Ireland's proposal that, rather than having to have a notice of termination, a letter of intent from a landlord could be sufficient to start exploring the process. Some landlords do not want to give the notice if it is not going to proceed.

With respect to cost rental, this scheme is not working. I think it is a reflection of the fact that the scheme really only started to be properly thought through after it was opened. There is significant resistance from within the approved housing bodies because they are fearful of the level of risk they are taking. They have conveyed that to the Minister. There is not a good enough amount of information. Social housing applicants know to go to the council when they get the notice. Many private rental tenants who do not have access to the local authorities do not know. The income assessment is too cumbersome. The 12-month lookback is causing problems. I urge the Minister to reconsider that.

I had an email from a gentleman today who is a landlord in Dún Laoghaire. He wants to sell to the tenant and engage in the tenantin situscheme. The local authority indicated that they were sale agreed in May of this year, but in September they withdrew, saying that the contract was denied, but provided no information. Where a contract is being denied, particularly at that late stage, we need to have a situation where some information is provided.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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There is no time for the Minister to answer.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I am not asking him to answer. I am asking him to take that on board to try to improve this going forward.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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When we bring the Minister in, it is helpful to leave him time to answer the question, otherwise we are just-----

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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I do have answers to some of the points that Deputy Ó Broin has raised.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Perhaps the Minister can write with some of those.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Unfortunately, I have to move on.

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I will give up a bit of my time for the Minister to answer some of those questions.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Okay. I will give the second Sinn Féin slot to allow the Minister to answer.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Ó Broin. On co-ordination across local authorities, some are doing really well. Looking at the overall pipeline, we have approximately 2,800 at various different stages, including sales. Some are doing better than others. We brought in Peter Carey, the former chief executive of Kildare County Council, who is co-ordinating it too. He was with the County and City Management Association, CCMA, today. Where local authorities look for additional resources, such as staffing, we will do it. We have given about 360 extra staff to housing departments. I met the CCMA today and one focus was on the tenant in situ scheme. Every local authority and approved housing body has that guide to deal with cost-rental tenants in situ. It should be clear for people.

We have seen an uptick, even since we prepared the statement in the past couple of weeks, in the cost-rental tenants in situthat we are receiving at the moment. I would see that as coming formally under the affordable housing fund, probably under the cost rental equity loan, CREL, when it is fully set up on an administrative basis as we move it forward.

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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There are two minutes-----

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I am not putting two Sinn Féin slots together.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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I will leave it at that. I will take the other points that Deputy Ó Broin has raised and respond.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I will give Deputy Gould a minute and a half in his slot.

John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The Minister said in his statement that 800 acquisitions have been completed and 1,000 are sale agreed. As he said, by any measure, it is working. It is 300 above the target. What we do not have in what he has given us is the breakdown per local authority so I can analyse what the targets were for each local authority, which are meeting them, which are exceeding them and which are not meeting them. Can the Minister provide that to us?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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We set baseline targets per local authority.

John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I understand.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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We have a tracker to see what targets are-----

John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I do not have it, though.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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We will publish the statistics every quarter, so I am quite happy to provide them here. There is a county by county breakdown. The Senator will see that some counties are significantly behind others.

John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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That is what we need to see.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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We are trying to encourage local authorities.

John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I am confident that Waterford is meeting its target and that is fine. I am keeping tabs on it and keeping track of it.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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Right now, it is double its base target.

John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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However, other local representatives in other areas need to know-----

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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We will publish-----

John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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-----if their local authority is not performing. Do we have a figure for those cases that are in the process but are not sale agreed or have not been completed?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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To break it down as best we have it, and this is just for transparency purposes, there is an initial baseline target, which was the minimum of 1,500. We have 807 sales completed. Between those at the stages of offer accepted and sale agreed and in conveyancing, we have 1,321. On top of these, there are another 688 proposals. People bring forward proposals.

John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Some of them will work and some will not.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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A lot of them will work. We are looking at a total pipeline of 2,816 at present.

John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The Minister is committed to fully funding all of them.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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There is no issue with funding.

John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Perfect. To move on to cost rental and tenant in situ, every local authority has the document. There is a local authority referral form with four boxes covering valid notice to quit, eligibility for social housing supports, the landlord's consent to sell and the local authority assessing the individual or household as being at risk of homelessness using established procedures. This is where I have a bit of an issue because the established procedures in each local authority are a little different. We have an integrated homeless hub in Waterford. This issue affects people who have never interacted with the local authority, let alone gone next nor near a homeless hub. It is a desktop exercise. We have information on the people's income, we have their notice to quit and we have the information that the landlord is willing to engage in the process. What is the need for these people to attend in person an integrated homeless hub to be asked whether they have tried to find alternative accommodation, to which they will answer "Yes", and whether they have been able to do so, to which they will answer "No", so they can be told they will be put forward to the Housing Agency? It is needlessly clogging up staff resources. The referral could easily be done in a desktop exercise and this needs to go out to the local authorities.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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The Senator knows this measure is intended to prevent people from going into homelessness; hence the question. Cost rental is not a free for all. We are expanding cost rental to new properties. I take the point on whether there is a better administrative way to do it. As I said at the outset, we are seeing quite a considerable increase in the numbers. I never thought that the cost rental tenantin situ scheme would be as significant or even close to as significant as the purchase for tenant in situscheme for HAP and RAS tenancies. It was never going to be that.

John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I understand.

Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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I welcome what the Minister has done to date but I am also looking for a breakdown for every county. I want this done by the local authority that represents the area. We had a discussion earlier about Patrickswell.

Two weeks ago I was at a meeting with IBEC. Its biggest concern is that 83% of manufacturing and floor staff are finding it difficult to get rental accommodation in urban and rural areas. Major employers such as Eli Lilly and Analog Devices have a major problem getting rentals. During the week a statement was made, and I want the Minister to clarify it, that people in local authority houses could rent out a room. Will he clarify what is meant by this? There were mixed messages coming out that people in local authority houses who own their own houses could rent a room and that people renting from the local authority might be able to rent out a room. Will the Minister clarify this for people? There seem to be mixed messages.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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We intend to expand the rent-a-room scheme to people in social housing who are social housing tenants. There are some criteria and we are working through them. It is a decision the Government made. We want to ensure that the income will be disregarded from any social welfare entitlement that people may have. Not every tenant will have a social welfare entitlement. This is the intention and we are working through it with the CCMA to see what the exact focus will be. It is not a tenancy but renting a room. As anyone who owns their own home can avail of the scheme, we also want to social housing tenants to be able to avail of it. There are some complexities. If there is one person living in a three-bedroom home, that person might want to move to other social housing property of a different size. We have seen this being done quite successfully in some areas. It would mean that a three-bedroom property would be freed up by someone moving to a smaller property. If that person is renting a room with a tenant in it, the move might be slowed up.

Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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What about somebody in arrears?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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There are some complexities in it. The Government made a decision that we want to expand the rent-a-room scheme to social housing. It cannot be clearer.

Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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The Minister recently visited County Limerick. When will we get the money for the infrastructure that was promised in Askeaton, Dromcollogher and Hospital? This will allow a level playing field with regard to infrastructure in Limerick so that we can rebuild our towns and villages.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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We have discussed this in the Dáil but I want to give the Deputy figures for Limerick. Limerick City and County Council is a merged local authority. The base target was set at 75 for purchase for tenants in situand the pipeline is 179. It is performing very well.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Will the Minister explain what the STAR scheme is? In his opening statement the Minister mentioned changes to the standard cost-rental framework. Is this with regard to the Act? What exactly is this framework?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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STAR is the secure tenancy affordable rental investment scheme. It is to activate further properties for cost rental. We are looking at a State subvention per unit, or investment by way of equity, of up to €150,000 per unit. We got approval to do this in the middle of the year from the Government. We have some large cost-rental schemes that we can get going and get off the ground. There are many paused planning permissions that we want to activate There are also very large developments. There are viability issues. We can deal with these, as we are doing through Croí Cónaithe, for apartments for purchase through the STAR scheme. The State will take that equity. It will reduce the funding amount and thereby we can keep the rents down at an affordable rate. We have had a lot of interest in STAR already. How many applications have we had already?

Ms Caroline Timmons:

We have had nine applications and it has only been open since July.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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It will be an opportunity to unlock further potential on cost rental. With regard to the changes we have made that I referred to, in March the net income limit was set at €53,000. We did research on the level of income to which we could increase this to make sure that the people we wanted the schemes to reach could get into them. From 1 August, the net income limit for Dublin is €66,000 and for the rest of the country it is €59,000. These changes are in effect in the scheme and regulation from 1 August.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I thank the Minister. What body is managing the STAR scheme? Is it the Land Development Agency or the Housing Agency?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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The Housing Agency manages it and it assesses each proposal on an open book basis. Then it comes to us to sign off and approve.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Primarily it is a State subvention to stimulate where there is an affordability and viability gap, mostly to deliver cost rental.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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STAR is for cost rental.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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That is great. I thank the Minister.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I have two questions for the Minister. This has been highly successful at preventing homelessness. There are almost 10,000 homeless people in Dublin. In the first half of this year 4,309 notices to quit were issued in Dublin. The target for the four Dublin local authorities is 725. For Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council it is only 50, which is the lowest of the four Dublin local authorities by quite a margin. I have had renters in touch with me from Dún Laoghaire saying how difficult they have been finding getting the local authority to move on this scheme. Does the Minister think the targets should be increased substantially, especially in areas in the country with the highest levels of homelessness and very high levels of notices to quit?

I also ask about the proposal from Focus Ireland that rather than a notice to quit being required for this to be triggered, a letter of intent from a landlord would save all the trauma and stress through which renters are put. Has the Minister considered that proposal? Will he consider it?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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We will consider Focus Ireland's proposal. Its representatives sit on the national homeless action committee. We do a lot of work with Mr. Pat Dennigan, Mr. Mike Allen and others. Many of the changes to cost-rental tenancies in situand the purchase with tenants in situhave emanated from the NGOs with which we are working. We will consider that proposal and are doing so.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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When will the Minister come to a decision? Focus Ireland made that proposal months ago.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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The scheme is working very well. We will consider the proposal. We want to make sure we are not incentivising sales and we must be careful about that. We have had issues in a small number of instances where people know the State is purchasing the properties and the price has gone way above what the market price would be. The Deputy will appreciate that we have to be careful about how we approach those types of things. When a local authority is buying a property, we must be still be aware of value for money. Rightly, the committee members would bring me before the committee if some properties were bought for way above the market price. Unfortunately, we have seen a small number of instances of that happening, although not in the main. The vast majority of people who have interacted with the scheme have done so in good faith.

It is important to say those targets were only baseline allocations that were set. Dublin city, for example, had an allocation of 400. It has 595 right now.

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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What about Dún Laoghaire?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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I will go through each of the Dublin allocations. Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown had an allocation of 50. In the pipeline now are 54. For Fingal, the baseline target was 125. It now has 329 in the pipeline. The baseline target for South Dublin County Council was 150. It now has 285 in the pipeline. We are not telling anyone-----

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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The figure for Dún Laoghaire is too low.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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We are encouraging all local authorities where we can. It sometimes depends on what properties come to sale. That is also an issue that impacts what local authorities can do. As I said earlier, I expect we will spend in the region of €300 million on this scheme this year. This is the most significant purchase scheme with tenants in situever. I understood there was comment and criticism at the start of the scheme. People thought it was too slow. It is gaining momentum. We need more uniformity. It takes some local authorities longer to conclude a sale. Conveyancing remains an issue and much of that is not within the gift of the local authorities. There are issues in respect of conveyancing with lawyers on the vendors' side.

Rebecca Moynihan (Labour)
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I am not going to ask particular questions but want to give some feedback on the scheme. The tenant in situscheme is great. It operated in Dublin city for a number of years. If somebody is at risk of homelessness, we can go to the acquisitions section and fill in its representatives. They have been quite responsive. However, the scheme is patchy around the country. Dublin city has a head start on some of the other local authorities. Issues arise. Has guidance been given to local authorities where people are entitled to a certain type of house or household under the social housing list but the house they are in does not satisfy the criteria? For example, people might be entitled to a three-bedroom home but the house they are in has two bedrooms.The alternative might be their going into homelessness. Can they still go onto the transfer list? That is slowing up the process.

Do we have an idea of the number of cases where local authorities inspect a property and decide not to purchase it, and what the reasons are? At a very early stage of the scheme becoming national, I had a mother who was at risk of homelessness and the inspector said that under no circumstances was the local authority to buy the house in question because an attic was converted. It was not counted on the basis of the number of bedrooms that were in the house. The local authority said no because it would be unable to stand over anything that happened in the attic. Such issues arise. Has guidance been given to local authorities in that regard? Is there some flexibility? I will leave it at that.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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I am glad the Senator has raised that point. Guidance has been given. Working that through on housing need was an issue at the start. In some instances, people may be underaccommodated. A family of four might be in a two-bedroom apartment, but to secure the tenancy, the property may be purchased with the understanding that the family may transfer somewhere else. The same applies for people who are overaccommodated, for want of a better phrase. By that, I mean situations where the home people are in is larger than what they would get through a normal allocation. In those instances, we have issued guidance to secure the property. It may be that such a tenant will transfer in time to somewhere more appropriate. That agreement would be put in place with the tenant in both of those instances. We need tenants to be clear on that. There may be extreme cases where, for example, a person is living alone in a three-bedroom house. I do not mean to call that "extreme". We have issued guidance to secure the tenancy where we can. It may mean that the tenant will move somewhere else in time and an agreement will be put in place for that to happen. The purchase happens with the clear understanding that the tenant may be moving to somewhere more appropriate. Guidance has been issued in that regard. There is a definition within the guidance that can be shared with the committee.

We have to allow local authorities some flexibility, to be fair. Some properties are in very bad shape and it may involve a six-figure sum to do up a property. There are reasons local authorities must be given discretion not to proceed with purchases.

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I will take the opportunity to put on the record my acknowledgement and recognition of, and appreciation for, what is happening in my county, led by our acting chief executive, Mr. Colm Ward, who came from a housing background. That is probably why we have such a focus on housing and the tenant in situscheme. There is also such a focus from Ms Elaine Leech and her entire team. South Dublin County Council has had 409 expressions of interest, 95 of which have proceeded to sale agreed or purchase, and another 200 of which are at the stage of valuation, negotiation or due diligence. That adds up to approximately 300. If they come good, we look to be on track to double the baseline target currently set for South Dublin County Council. What is the situation in local authorities throughout the country? Have they met their baseline targets? What percentage of local authorities have at this stage met that baseline? How many have not done so?

I wish to flag some issues. There are issues in respect of the length of time it is taking and communication, as we have spoken about. Some tenants may be on the Dublin City Council housing list but in the South Dublin County Council area. We do not have visibility on those figures. The Minister has already explained. I am asking about occasions where tenants are in a different local authority area. The Minister dealt with the issues about underoccupancy and overoccupancy, which is great. Will the Minister give an update on the cost rental tenant in situscheme? I am asking about the baseline figures throughout the country and the cost-rental scheme.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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We are encouraging local authorities. It is not about beating up those that are below their baseline targets. Only four of the 31 local authorities are behind their annual baseline targets. Twenty-seven are either on schedule or ahead of schedule. That is a quick tally but I think I am correct.

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Will the budget need to be increased?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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Those four local authorities are behind their targets.

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Given that everyone else is on target or ahead of their targets, is there enough money in the pot?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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There is. Some of these sales will be closed but we will not get the claims for them until later in the year or early next year. They are not all going to come in this calendar year. As I said earlier, I expect them to spend approximately €300 million, based on what we are projecting. Will all of that be in this year's expenditure? I cannot guarantee that. It depends when the claims are submitted. The local authorities carry out the function. They will conclude the sales and do not have to come back to me looking for the money. They can close the sale, pay out the money and seek reimbursement from us. There are four local authorities there. As I said earlier, I intend to continue this into next year.

I earlier mentioned the cost rental tenant in situscheme. There have been approximately 139 cases so far. We expected to spend approximately €10.25 million on the scheme and I am projecting we will spend approximately €24 million on it this year. Other Deputies mentioned information in respect of the cost rental tenant in situscheme. I want to mention something that Deputy Ó Broin already mentioned. All tenants in the country, whether they received a notice to quit or not, were written to by the Residential Tenancies Board, RTB, outlining their rights should they receive a notice to quit. That correspondence included detail of the cost-rental tenant in situoption and information about something I have not yet mentioned, that is, the first home scheme. We have concluded a number of sales under that scheme in situations where tenants had the opportunity to get a mortgage and were short of the cost price of the house but wanted to buy the property they were in.

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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How many of those?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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We have had 43 applications so far and 29 eligibility certificates issued. It is relatively small, but these are households or families who like where they are living and want to buy it, were not able to up to now and can buy them now. That is increasing as well. We get that regularly. I have to say the team in South Dublin are doing an excellent job.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I thank the Minister. I will give Deputy Gould two minutes, if that is okay.

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I will be quick. On the point the Minister made about uniformity on guidelines, I certainly am getting issues about being overoccupied or underoccupied. It is important the Minister would restate that to local authorities.

Some landlords are telling me it is quicker to do a private sale than the tenant in situ. I actually rang a landlord last week and I asked him if he would engage with the local authority because the family were facing homelessness. Cork City Council - the Minister might have the figures for Cork city and county - is doing great work. My issue is whether it has the staff to do it with the volume that is coming at it.

I welcome the scheme. I want to see it succeed. My party has been on for a long time about rolling the scheme out, and it was good that the Minister took our suggestions and those of others on board because we can work together sometimes, such as when it comes to trying to prevent people from going into homelessness. The issues are the resources and trying to get the sales done quicker.

I would like to see the data in relation to refusals. Why were they refused? The Minister has mentioned a few reasons he is trying to work around. That is one benefit when you have data. You are able to look at it and work out if there are any issues. I am aware Cork City Council has had one or two where it could not buy the properties because they were so bad but it has put them into social housing. I suppose they co-operate. We want this to work. We really do.

On the issue of resources, are local authorities slow to ask for more staff?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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We provided an additional 360 staff alone across local authorities. I met with both chief executives in the Deputy's area - Cork city and county - earlier today. The market out there is pretty hot for people. Vacancies are not filled as quickly as they would have been because we have nearly full employment in the country, but many of the roles have been filled. Sanction is given. I reiterated to the County and City Management Association, CCMA, today that where additional resources are required, particularly in this area and the area of vacancy, we would provide them based on them delivering on the targets they have been set. Cork city and county are exceeding their targets there at present.

Following this meeting, I will restate the over and underoccupancy. That is issued in guidelines. I have no difficulty doing that on the basis of the Deputy's suggestion.

The Deputy is correct that his party looked for a tenant in situscheme that looked to purchase 900 properties. I am glad to say Government is exceeding that substantially now where we have approximately 2,800 at different stages. Everyone is supportive of this. I want to see it continue into next year. Certainly, we can improve it as it moves forward and we are open to providing additional resources where they are requested.

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I thank the Minister and Deputy Gould. The last two slots are Fianna Fáil slots because I do not have a third Fine Gael. Do they want to share this slot between them?

Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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Will there be a second round for the Independents?

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I will let everybody in first before I come back. I do not think there will be time because the Minister is on the floor of the House at 5.10 p.m., as is Deputy O'Callaghan. We have some private committee business to deal with as well and I would ask members to hang back. Will Deputy Lawless share the last slot?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely, I will share with Deputy Flaherty. I thank the Chair.

I thank the Minister. The scheme is a going down well. I was delighted to welcome it when it was announced a while back. I have interacted with it, largely with Kildare County Council but also with some other local authorities around me as well. My first impression of it was that it was a great scheme in theory. I did not have a sense that local authorities, certainly in the early stages, were fully engaged or had got to grips with it and I wondered to what extent it was embedded within local authorities and to what extent the local authorities have a dedicated officer within the housing section who is on the ground and working with people, public representatives and individuals to make it work.

I will ask rapid-fire questions. Deputy O'Callaghan might have raised the same question. A question that comes up a lot that I get is, does a landlord or property owner need to put the property on the open market before he or she can engage in the tenant in situscheme or can he or she come through a public representative or to the local authority directly and state that he or she has a property and ask to sign it over to the local authority and for the local authority take it over from there? I get mixed answers to that, or mixed messages, depending on who I ask across local authorities.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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A property does not have to put on the open market. The notice to quit has to be issued. That has to be served. The property does not have to go out on the open market. You can decide to deal directly with the local authority.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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That is good to know. If there is a delay in the local authority following through on that, the notice to quit has been served maybe six weeks, or whatever the time is, and the local authority is taking three months to close the deal, that can cause obvious difficulties for people. I have seen that happen as well.

While we are on it, I also have a lot of situations where people say they have a property, they want to get rid of it, they are renting it out or whatever, there may not necessarily be a tenant in situas it may be vacant at times, and they want to sell it to the local authority. This comes up a lot. I also have got mixed messages for those scenarios. Do they have to advertise on the market first, bring it to market or can they do a deal with the local authority?There was a conversation a few minutes ago about artificially inflating values. Going directly to the local authority would be preferable, from the State purse point of view and for everybody, because if it goes on the market, the price could be driven up and the taxpayer would not be getting the same value. What is the position around that?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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There is a need to allow discretion to local authorities in the purchase of vacant properties. They are embarked on a significant purchase of a tenant in situproperty. In some instances, it will be that a local authority - I get these queries too - will say it has its quota or quotient of social housing in this area and that it needs a mix, such as some affordable, cost-rental or whatever. This scheme is to secure people's tenancies.

We have been offered some multi-unit developments which is where some may be vacant and some may be occupied. We will be buying some of them as well, which means we will be able to let out those additional vacant apartments. It makes sense probably to buy the lot where we can because then we can manage it all at once.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I will be brief. I commend the Minister, the Department and the local authorities throughout the country. When the winter eviction ban ended, we were given a Doomsday scenario that families would be out on the street, and yet the Minister reacted, his staff reacted and local authorities reacted. We see the figures here today. It is great to hear all sides of the House acknowledge the success of this scheme.

The Minister has been extremely innovative. He has been willing to adapt and to change, and we have hard multiple examples there. We have seen it again this week, with the first home scheme, how the Minister has adapted now to self-builds. There is excellent work going on. Unfortunately, we do not hear it enough. There is great work being done. We have an awful lot more to do but it is great to see those figures - all bar four local authorities exceeding it. It is a real success story.

If I could give the Minister one point to take away for the tenantin situscheme, it is that all of them are precluded from buying out that house at any stage into the future. That is something the Minister could look at. Most of the people who have come through that scheme have been in that house for a long time. They will be restricted in the opportunity to buy a house at a future stage. They will stay in that house, probably for the rest of their lives. They should be afforded the opportunity of the tenant purchase scheme after the ten-year period that is currently afforded to local authority tenants.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Flaherty. I would make two points. As we are building up our housing stock - there is a desire for people to purchase social homes as well - we need to catch up and get our stock levels back up. There was a sale of properties in this jurisdiction and other jurisdictions, diminishing the housing stock. Any Part V social homes cannot be purchases. Other homes can be. I have not expanded the tenant purchase scheme yet.

There is no preclusion with these. You convert your tenancy to a social housing tenancy with these ones. There is no preclusion in that regarding the future of potentially-----

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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If you go to a housing agency and it is provided through a housing agency, you will not be able to.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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If it is through an approved housing body, the Deputy is correct. I thank the Deputy for his comments at the start. The scheme is working well. We are doing this as we are increasing supply across the board, which is good.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Deputy O'Donoghue wanted one minute. I have one minute but I really have to let the Minister go then.

Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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This is very important. I refer to the local authority industrial action in the coming weeks. Industrial action is to be escalated next week as the Fórsa trade union states there is a lack of comprehensive job evaluation in schemes in local authorities. Industrial action will include a ban on all internal and external email correspondence and a 48-hour phone ban. How many of the local authority staff will be affected? How will this affect the scheme?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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On Leaders' Questions in the Dáil, it was put to me by Deputy Mythen in relation to the current dispute of Fórsa workers in the local authorities. What I have said is that we are in national pay talks right now. That is the way to be able to deal with any future claims and conditions. We all respect those workers, who do lots of good work.

I think any of the issues they highlighted are resolvable within the national pay talks, which have started. There is no indication that anything we are doing now will be affected by that at all. Unfortunately, it means that public representatives who are elected - councillors, Deputies-----

Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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And outside of that now.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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I am just saying that-----

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I will wind up now.

John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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When putting the cost-rental tenant in situon a statutory footing, is it the intention that it goes with the Housing Agency or the local authorities?

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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It is with the Housing Agency now because it is on an administrative basis through it. It is like the secure tenancy affordable rental investment scheme in that it is available to everyone. We will work that through. It will probably require some changes as secondary legislation.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I thank the Minister. We will extend a further invite to catch up on Housing for All at some point and we look forward to doing that.