Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome Deputy Mythen to the meeting. Before we begin, I remind members and witnesses to turn off their mobile phones.

I bring to the attention of witnesses that when giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. This means witnesses have a full defence in any defamation action relating to anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse that privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's direction. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard. They are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that, insofar as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses who give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts. They may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to publication by witnesses outside the proceedings held by the committee of any matters arising from those proceedings.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to utterances of members participating online in the committee meeting if their participation is from within the parliamentary precincts. Members may not participate in a public meeting online from outside the parliamentary precincts and any attempt to do so will result in the member having his or her online access removed.

The purpose of this meeting is to undertake an examination of the challenges facing the horse sport industry. We will hear from representatives of a number of organisations involved in the industry. I welcome Mr. Robert Fagan, the Equestrian Competition Venues Owners Alliance; Mr. Nikki Potterton, Eventing Ireland; Ms Marguerite Kavanagh, Dressage Ireland; Mr. Ivor Harper, Para Equestrian Ireland; and Mr. Ronan Corrigan, Showjumping Ireland. The opening statements have been circulated to members. Witnesses will have ten minutes each to read their opening statements and make their presentations, after which we will have a question-and-answer session.

Mr. Robert Fagan:

I thank the Cathaoirleach for inviting us. Mr. Ronan Corrigan will now make the opening statement.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

We thank members for the invitation to attend the session to outline to the committee directly the concerns held by us, the attendees, and those we represent. While there are concerns which we will address, it is also important to be aware that we are also here to outline the aspirations, ambitions and goals of the Irish sport horse industry and what we envisage for it. We are collectively focused on ensuring a vibrant and productive equestrian sport horse sector. All the bodies represented are singularly focused on this objective.

The bodies appearing today are four of the major equestrian sporting bodies and Olympic disciplines in Ireland, together with the representative organisation of equestrian competition venue owners.

From Para Equestrian Ireland we have Karen Reilly and Ivor Harper. From Dressage Ireland we have Marguerite Kavanagh and David Kearney. From Eventing Ireland we have Nikki Potterton and Richard Eames. From the Equestrian Competition Venues Owners Alliance we have Robert Fagan and Ciaran Glynn. From Showjumping Ireland we have Christy Murphy and myself.

Showjumping Ireland is the largest equestrian sporting organisation in Ireland. We are the recognised governing body for the sport of showjumping nationally. As such, we are also an affiliate of Horse Sport Ireland, which currently administers international participation for equestrian sport. Showjumping Ireland is the largest sporting affiliate and Olympic discipline. Showjumping Ireland is also part of the Sport Ireland code of governance and is listed as a type C organisation. We have entered the Sport Ireland process and are currently completing the "on the journey" section toward compliance. Showjumping Ireland currently has over 8,000 active members.

Para Equestrian Ireland, PEI, as members may be aware, is the recognised governing body for the promotion and inclusion in equestrian sports of non-able-bodied athletes, both nationally and internationally. As such PEI is an affiliate of Horse Sport Ireland, which currently administers international participation for equestrian sport. Para Equestrian Ireland is probably the smallest of the affiliates with an Olympic discipline. Para Equestrian Ireland is a type A organisation and a registered charity. It is required not only to subscribe to the code of governance for Horse Sport Ireland but also to run the organisation to adhere to the charity commission's codes of ethics and governance. It has successfully complied with both requirements.

Dressage Ireland is the recognised governing body for the development of dressage on the island of Ireland and for its members overseas, from amateur to Olympic level. It is an affiliate of Horse Sport Ireland, which currently administers international participation for equestrian sport. Dressage Ireland is a significant funding entity to Horse Sport Ireland for high-performance requirements. As a sport, dressage has grown rapidly in popularity and has almost 800 members immersed in the sport, with an additional 200 people supporting members in various roles. Dressage Ireland subscribes to the Sport Ireland code of governance, is listed as a type B organisation and has completed a series of workshops on governance compliance. As an organisation, Dressage Ireland is very aware of the obligations of organisations in relation to governance and works diligently to comply with the requirements of the governance code. Its immediate and urgent concerns are for the industry and sporting activities.

Eventing Ireland is the recognised governing body for eventing in Ireland and is an affiliate of Horse Sport Ireland. Eventing is an Olympic sport for which we have successfully qualified for Paris 2024. The Irish sport horse ranks second on the world breeding studbook rankings for eventing. Eventing Ireland currently administers national and international eventing in Ireland, being the main point of contact for the riders and owners alike. Eventing Ireland is an organisation with strong governance. It is undergoing a process to fully comply with the Sport Ireland governance code by 2024.

The Equestrian Competition Venue Owners Alliance, ECVOA, is the representative organisation of 18 of the busiest equestrian competition venues in Ireland. Formed in 2017 to address issues affecting the industry, ECVOA is the voice of the centres which host the vast majority of all equestrian activities held annually in the Thirty-two Counties. The equestrian venues which ECVOA represents are, in the main, family-owned businesses that have been developed and grown, at their own expense, by these families. With proper investment, ECVOA believes that the sport horse industry can continue to grow and contribute meaningfully to the State.

We are here today to appeal to the committee to provide assistance, where possible, and direction, where necessary, and to exercise its oversight role to work with us to ensure State and public investment in the sport and industry is utilised in a manner which will deliver the maximum benefit to the sport and industry and provide value to the Exchequer. Our sports and industry are somewhat unique in that they cover a multitude of activities across all parts of Irish society and bridge a diverse equestrian and rural industry. Our various bodies are made up of breeders, producers, owners, professional competitors, amateur competitors, families, children who compete and the many coaches, officials and volunteers, show organisers and venue owners who assist in making the industry vibrant and successful. We are an active industry which also encompasses and brings together members from both rural and urban environments and our common thread is the desire to interact in a sport that involves horses and ponies and develops a strong sense of responsibility, integrity and common purpose to work to improve the sport and industry. These traits are instilled from an early age. The organisations represented today encompass a huge underage body of members who are the true future of our industry.

All the organisations also interact on a daily basis with the large number of breeders nationwide and many of the breeders are active members of the respective organisations. Their investment of time and resources are progressed and developed through the activities of the various bodies we represent. The success of the Irish horse has been fundamentally attributable to the foundations laid and put in place by the organisations here today and we continuously look to improve and develop in order to retain the reputation of the Irish horse. With our breeders we grow and develop the industry and the economy. We create vital economic activity to grow and enhance the industry.

All the organisations work closely with the many commercial suppliers to the industry to continuously develop opportunities to encourage further investment which will make the production of the Irish produced and bred horse more viable. Similarly, all the organisations work diligently to ensure animal welfare and that the care, management and understanding of all the animal's needs are promoted and monitored, and that any areas of concern are identified and addressed immediately. All organisations have a well-trained bank of officials who monitor and oversee these requirements and have detailed regulations and guidelines to refer to when necessary.

All the organisations also invest heavily in the athletes who take part in our various activities. Every Irish athlete has predominantly learned their trade through the national circuits and at the hundreds of events nationwide which run under the guidance and auspices of the various bodies here. We can be rightfully proud that the many custodians of the sport and industry over the previous decades have produced so many world class riders and competitors. It is due to the vision and energy of the hundreds of volunteers in the organisations that our competitors across all equestrian activities have achieved so much and have made our country and systems the envy of the world. No other sports can boast of having the national flag flown and anthem played so many times each year and in so many countries worldwide. We only need to review the past few weeks during which our various disciplines have brought many medals home to Ireland.

So far, I have given the committee the highs. Unfortunately, it is at this juncture that we must move to how we fear for the future and for the best interests of our industry and sports. As members may all be aware, the four equestrian disciplines here are all affiliates of Horse Sport Ireland. Members will note that I have not said members of Horse Sport Ireland and here lies one of the issues we are asking the committee to assist with. We have previously written to this committee and the various Ministers and Departments which have a relationship with Horse Sport Ireland and a responsibility to ensure Horse Sport Ireland carries out the role for which it was originally set up. It was originally set up as an umbrella body to enhance, support and develop the industry and to act as a conduit to help increase State funding to the industry. It brought together the breeding and sporting bodies. The Olympic and high-performance disciplines transferred national governing body, NGB, powers to Horse Sport Ireland from the previous NGB, then known as the Equestrian Federation of Ireland. All those bodies maintained board seats and acted to guide and develop the international sports from the national governing bodies.

The initial Horse Sport Ireland structure paid heed to the need to retain the expertise necessary to develop and improve the industry. While the board was large, it was also diverse and unpaid and it acted in the collective best interest of the industry and the sports. It permitted the affiliates to ensure that the entity was governed to deliver the maximum benefit to the industry and sport while also allowing a large degree of communication and transparency to be maintained through the general interactions. It also meant that each affiliate felt a sense of membership due to its nominations of its direct members to the board of Horse Sport Ireland. While it might not have been perfect, it would be fair to say that the initial model had the ability to develop and maintain trust and communication far better than the current model of Horse Sport Ireland.

The current structure of Horse Sport Ireland and the direction of travel will, more than ever, distance the body from its industry and sporting stakeholders and will bring into question how and why the bodies would continue to interact with it. The current plans seek to distance the ability of the stakeholders to influence their sports and industry. The current and proposed structures of HSI are, as many believe and have highlighted, flawed and not fit for purpose. The recent history of HSI shows it is driven towards administration and self-preservation with a lack of understanding of the industry or its pressing needs. One only has to look at the criteria the board of HSI is proposing to engage to select future board members. This current direction must be halted and an industry-led review of the actual needs carried out, with the aspiration of rebuilding a Horse Sport Ireland entity that would once again be truly representative of the industry and sport.

The distinct lack of relevant equestrian expertise within HSI both at executive and board level is a serious cause for concern to the equestrian industry. Decisions being made by HSI that affect the future viability of our sport from a sustainability perspective are a cause for great anxiety. We must at all costs avoid a situation that could continue to cause harm or fracture to the sport and industry. Communication and consultation are, to be frank, poor between the bodies we represent and Horse Sport Ireland.

Some will state we are willing to meet, or we have met, but lip service is not enough, and if the best return on investment and value for money is to be achieved, it is essential we stop duplicating tasks. A significant amount of money is consumed by administration, and while many of those within Horse Sport Ireland, HSI, are diligent and hardworking, their efforts do not reap the reward that could be achieved due to the lack of interaction, consultation and co-operation with the relevant bodies who run the sports every day nationally.

There is concern we are seeing a further distancing from the industry, and while some activities do take place between Horse Sport Ireland and the affiliates, they are in some instances, as previously mentioned, ill-conceived and badly planned when they come to the affiliates. These are areas we might be able to discuss further later. We would also harbour serious concerns relating to the ability of Horse Sport Ireland in its current form to understand the actual functioning of the industry, stakeholders and affiliates, and we are informed that these entities are regularly referred to as being "unmanageable" and "ungovernable". This has been an easy sell as the funding entities have never met the said bodies to understand their aims and goals. Bodies have frequently been referred to as being troublesome and badly managed, but this is far from the truth. All the bodies are made up of democratically elected persons in the same manner as our Dáil and Government, and these elected members are required to act in the best interests of their members and be fully accountable to them. These people take their duty of care towards member assets extremely seriously and expect full transparency and accountability from those they interact with.

We ask the committee to look at the entity Horse Sport Ireland in its current form and ask the question, does it conform to the same high standards? Did the committee members, as Members of the Dail, Seanad and of this committee, receive the information requested from Horse Sport Ireland when it sat before the committee several months ago? All the bodies present today can confirm they have experienced serious difficulties in obtaining answers to quinine queries and requests. Avoidance of action on serious governance issues and various interactions and items of correspondence are well below the standard expected of an organisation that seeks to maintain the title of national governing body, NGB, and industry representative to Government.

As budget 2024 is imminent, it must also be asked what consultation has taken place between the State-funded bodies and the industry stakeholders and affiliates to understand the actual industry needs. The answer, unfortunately, is none. While this may not be this committee’s area, we must highlight the serious concerns all the Olympic disciplines hold in regard to the management and support of the high-performance programmes.

Sport Ireland provides significant funding to Horse Sport Ireland and the affiliates are expected to provide funding towards a total budget. We would all wish to see additional funding available, particularly to assist our athletes develop their sporting careers through supports and bursaries. We are noted as being medal winners at all levels and across all age categories. The shocking reality is all this is achieved on the backs of families and supporters' funding, and supporting the Irish flag and the country abroad. This phenomenal success is, as stated, due to the sound principles and competitions, together with training, education and development created at national level by the bodies appearing before the committee today. We want this success to grow and to allow those who may not have the resources available to get a chance to shine.

This will not happen under the current structure being proposed by Horse Sport Ireland and the direction being adopted by it under the guise of governance review and improvement. This needs to be suspended and the funding entities need to engage with the stakeholders, national governing bodies and the industry to establish the best method to support and develop the industry in a constructive and inclusive manner.

There is without doubt a place in this process for Horse Sport Ireland but not with its current direction. It needs to retrace its steps to where it was at one time on solid ground with the industry and stakeholders rather than believing it is there to dictate terms to those same bodies. A strategic plan needs to reflect what is needed for the future of the industry, based on clear objectives for the industry that captures future capital development, the sport and the breeding aspects of our industry. The strategic plan needs to focus on the long term and examine how the above can be achieved and what supports can be provided.

We believe through direct consultation with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media that a more beneficial model of funding could be achieved and that such funding could help attract additional outside development funding. The bodies here today are eager to develop and improve the sport and the industry and to maximise the understanding of the Departments toward the needs and potential of our sport and industry. We will facilitate and action this medium and we urge the committee to use its good offices to encourage and direct the relevant Ministers, Departments and officials to interact with us in a meaningful way. We also ask the committee to bring to their attention that radical change is needed but that change must come with the input, support and blessing of those it will most impact.

Once again, we thank the committee for this invitation and we hope that, from this presentation today, we will see progress actioned in a manner that is inclusive and recognises the importance of the knowledge available through the bodies appearing before the committee and the vast grassroot memberships of each body which crosses the entire industry. We will be happy to address and answer any questions the committee members have relating to the industry, sport, entities and people involved in the industry. I thank the committee again for its time and consideration today.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Corrigan. I call Deputy Flaherty.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chair for allowing me to speak now. I also thank all of the speakers for attending. It is great to see such a cross-section from the sector. We are gathered here at what is very much a purple patch for the industry. We have had one of the best summers with regard to sport horse performance. We have had several successes and I know the young Irish junior riders and Irish pony teams have all won at Europe. I do not believe Irish horses have performed better than they are performing presently in eventing and, in particular, on the American scene, which is probably the most lucrative. They are excelling there.

It is concerning when we see the constituent parts of a sector coming before our committee and being very clearly at odds with the governing body. It is very clear there is a seismic rift between these constituent bodies, the governing body and us as legislators, people who ultimately are there to try to direct money and funding. This has to be a serious concern, that we are looking at such a serious situation which we must call it what it is, which is a stand-off with the governing body.

To focus on some of the points, I know there was a consultation period recently and I am interested to know from Mr. Corrigan if his organisation made a submission to that with regard to the directorships.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

We did and I believe all bodies here made separate submissions. All were of the same mind and we have to date only received recognition that the submissions were received. There has not been any further consultation.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I am conscious of my speaking time and we have many other speakers who wish to contribute to the discussion. If we look at how Showjumping Ireland’s board was constituted historically, what the organisation might have called the four expert witnesses would have been drawn from the high-performance, breeding and production, equestrian sport and recreation, and coaching and education committees. Am I correct in saying the directors had been drawn from those areas?

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

Yes, that is correct.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Looking at this from the outside, you would have said that would have brought the best of the industry and of those sectors to board level.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

Certainly, yes.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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So, in its wisdom or folly, Horse Sport Ireland decided it would freeze those committees. Is that correct?

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

Yes.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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It would then decide it would get more diverse sport. Would it not be fair to say the risk of a more diverse sport is that you are going to throw out the baby with the bathwater and the expertise on which this was based, which was the bedrock of those four committees and of horse sport policy and direction for the past 30 years is going to be abandoned? Would it be fair to say that?

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

It would, yes. We refer to it here in our statement where HSI, as the entity, was built on the expertise that was available at the time. The board was large and diverse and what was there up to the suspension worked reasonably well. Our fears are that what is being proposed now will completely empty out the ability of the industry to have a meaningful impact on policy, funding requirements and how that funding is utilised.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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If we were to try to crystallise some of Mr. Corrigan’s group's asks from today, the first thing it would ask is that this process of appointed directors be paused.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

Yes, certainly. I believe I speak for everybody here in saying it would be the ideal that it be paused and that meaningful consultation would take place with all stakeholders.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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It is very apparent that there is a rift. It is a bit like marriage counselling here so I am trying to be polite in what I say, but it is very apparent these bodies are at odds with the governing body. There is always friction between the different groups but it is great to see such a united front in the sector.

As I said earlier, we are here on the back of unprecedented success. We have several Irish-bred showjumpers competing internationally. The great concern is we are not able to keep those horses in the country. They are being bought by the best international riders, are very marketable, and are being sold abroad. Therein presents a great opportunity for rural Ireland. We should have more small farmers breeding more horses and we should be getting more farmers involved. We in this committee are trying to change the way we farm. We will not mention nitrates or anything like that, but we are trying to change the way we farm. Traditionally, every farm bred a sport horse in this country and it was backboned by the Irish draught horse, which was the workhorse on the farm. We have probably moved away from that, and in a halcyon world we should probably move back towards it.

The submission is very concerning and we have to take note of it. Would it be fair to say Mr. Corrigan's ask of us in this committee and of the Government is that we get a strategic review of the sport horse sector?

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

That is fair. I can refer it to anyone else here, but I believe our predominant ask today is that we see meaningful consultation and that what is attempted to be built is representative of the organisation and will allow it to grow, as the Deputy said. We have huge potential. We see that in our riders, producers and breeders. Unfortunately, that is not being maximised and it is a concern to us all.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Coming out of this, I propose we write to the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine and ask for a review of the sport horse sector. I am pleased see the representatives acknowledge there is some future role for Horse Sport Ireland, so we might be able to save this marriage to some degree. That is good to see. Such a review obviously needs to take in the different groups here, plus Horse Sport Ireland, and external professional consultants should probably be engaged to conduct it. Our guests would be happy with that and it would give them a sound footing on which to move forward within a properly constituted, administered and inclusive Horse Sport Ireland.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

Yes, where we have a full stakeholder involvement in what is being constructed.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, very good. I will give Mr. Corrigan a rest for a minute if that is all right. Mr. Fagan is representing ECVOA.

Mr. Robert Fagan:

That is right.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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For the benefit of my colleagues, Mr. Fagan runs what is probably one of the most successful equestrian centres and competition venues in the country. I am fortunate to live a little down the road from it. If I go out my back door, I also have Cavan Equestrian Centre, so I have two of the best in the country there. Anybody who visits those venues or any of the other competition venues over the summer will see just how busy those are, but more importantly, they will see the scale of investment these competition venues have made in their enterprises. I suppose as these are commercial venues, Mr. Fagan and those like him cannot apply for sports capital funding.

Mr. Robert Fagan:

We cannot. To give the background, most of the 18 or 20 venues that are part of our association are family-run businesses spread throughout the 32 counties and they are very rural and have a rural basis. Maybe there is a perception that we are commercial and, as a result, we are not able to tap into the likes of the Sport Ireland funding for capital investment and so on, so we are at a huge disadvantage there. We are 30 years in the making. The Deputy mentioned Cavan, it is 40 years in the case of Millstreet and there are many other venues. I have a colleague present representing Killossery. They are all family-run and have been built up over the years, but it is because they have a passion for the sport and for the industry. These venues are a community for people who compete in pony clubs, dressage, eventing or hunting. We are multi-disciplined and we create that facility for those people to use. If we were to compare facilities with the likes of Sweden, Belgium or Holland, which rank high in the equestrian Olympic disciplines and so on, they get massive support and they get it from their communities, county councils and governments.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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On that, we will reach out to the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, on the sports capital grant and the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, Deputy Martin, to see if we can do anything on that. I referenced the point that many of our best horses are going abroad. Within the industry, does Mr. Fagan see a mechanism whereby we can hold on to those horses or some way to incentivise horse owners, breeders and producers to hold on to our very best and keep them here? We are going into an Olympic year and we are probably going to see more Irish-bred horses being ridden by foreign jockeys than Irish ones at the games. Has Mr. Fagan any thoughts on that?

Mr. Robert Fagan:

Yes. It is something that has been talked about for years but it has never come to fruition. A tax incentive to encourage a business or private investor to invest in a horse for these athletes would be of huge benefit. As I said, they are punching way above their weight as it is, but what if there were a mechanism or structure to incentivise people to hold on to these horses and give them to the top athletes? We are absolutely brilliant at what we do and we have a fantastic industry. Unfortunately, the tradition has been that when a rider gets good, he or she must emigrate. What has changed in the past couple of years is people have put their hands in their pockets to improve their facilities and encouraged these people to stay at home and produce these horses at home. We want to stop the rot. We want to stop the horses going and the athletes going. We want to try to get as much help as we can to keep the horses and the athletes and improve the facilities.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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In the minute I have left I might come back to Mr. Corrigan, with reference to what Mr. Fagan has said about the supports the sector needs, such as tax incentives, bursaries and all that. Has Horse Sport Ireland ever done a forensic report on how we need to support the different constituent parts, including, dressage, eventing, para-equestrian, and given it to the Government?

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

Not in recent years, to the best of my knowledge. I defer to any of the other discipline representatives, but I do not believe we have done so for showjumping for a number of years. Probably seven or eight years ago there was a report done from within the rump of people within Horse Sport Ireland. Has much of it been actioned? The answer is "No". Some of it came through in the Reaching New Heights document that was launched, but a lot of the things in it were aspirations that never actually came to their full maturity and so they were lost a little bit.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Is the fact that is the case when we are on the cusp of extraordinary and probably unprecedented success across the different constituent entities of Horse Sport Ireland not a damning indictment of the organisation? Mr. Corrigan may or may not be able to say.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

It certainly is, yes.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chair.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I thank the representatives for coming in. From what I can gather from them, they need representation on the main board of Horse Sport Ireland. What dialogue is going on at the moment? Mr. Corrigan said there is a freeze. Is there communication? Is there stalemate? Funding goes from Government to the organisation, so I am sure there could be influence used. He might elaborate on that.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

I thank the Deputy. The main issue is there is little communication about the appointments on the board other than, as we stated, that we have all made submissions with our recommendations.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Is there a board now with the organisation or what is the set-up?

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

There is part of a board currently in place. The ministerial appointees are in the role of chairperson and three directors to the board of Horse Sport Ireland, so it is functioning as a board and has a quorum. However, there is currently no industry representation at all on it.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Was there legal action threatened or something? Is this why the board was decimated or what has gone wrong?

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

No. This was a decision taken by the board and the Minister at the time to freeze all the working committees and the councils, which I think Deputy Flaherty referred to, that gave the other four directors to the board. All high performance committees and councils were put in abeyance - I think that was the terminology used at the time - by the current board now in place. That was circa November last year and nothing really happened until we had the consultation process, which was a submission for inputs. Nothing has happened since then. I think that closed on 15 August. As I said, the only thing we have heard since then is that they have received our submissions.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Okay. I will turn to Mr. Fagan. I will be clear on this, in case people are out there looking in and get their hopes up. Generally applicants for sports capital grants have to be a not-for-profit community group or a club or whatever. There is no point in someone out there thinking he or she might get a sports capital grant, because the terms and conditions would have to change and we have to be honest with the representatives about that. While they might be giving a service to communities or whatever, they probably still do not let people use the place for nothing and they do not do it for charity. We must be honest about that. There are equestrian centres down my own way. The centres have land and they have equine numbers. They are allowed go into the targeted agricultural modernisation scheme, TAMS, at the moment, are they not?

Mr. Robert Fagan:

That is correct. It is a recent introduction.

I would like to compare us to the racecourses. They are able to access capital funding through their governing body, Horse Racing Ireland, HRI. Could such a mechanism be put in place whereby we could access that? It is investment in rural Ireland, strategically throughout the country. It is not a trophy centre of excellence in the middle of a city.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Can this not be obtained under targeted agriculture modernisation schemes, TAMS, for sheds, the structures and some fences? New things have come in. Is there a list of things one can get, which were not available before under TAMS?

Mr. Robert Fagan:

Many of the things we look at include course surfaces. These are very expensive because good facilities are required for the welfare of the horse when it is competing. That is important. That costs a lot of money. That does not fall under it.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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When we were being lobbied before, we were being lobbied by the people with horses or by those breeding horses. They were looking for what they now have. It is a good thing.

Mr. Robert Fagan:

That is fantastic. However, we were at a different end of it. We are holding the part where the people come when they produce the horse. They have the facility at home to train that horse in good conditions but they need to get it out to good facilities such that we have. It is important we can provide the best facilities to compete with the standards they are used to abroad.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Mr. Fagan is saying that the budget Horse Sport Ireland gets should be no less than the racing side of it, so that a certain amount would be given to the different race tracks and that it would have a budget to allocate in order to help the equestrian centres.

Mr. Robert Fagan:

Yes, that was in one of the previous reports. The unique aspect of it was that it be strategic throughout the country. It was not any one centre. That is where we are at.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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To be clear, something must change drastically. I do not see how it would in the light of the sports capital grant. There is no point in leading people up a garden path. I cannot see that happening. The way Mr. Fagan is talking is in terms of funding being available to Horse Sport Ireland for the betterment of the industry, no more than for the betterment of the racing industry. That may be a better solution.

There is a fair bit of promotion urging farmers to get into breeding horses. There is a good market overseas at the moment for some of those horses. Is it fair to say many farmers are being encouraged? In my area, and I am not an expert in horses and would not claim to be, there seems to be more uptake from farming communities with an interest in breeding. There are markets out there. Some of them are successful. Is that fair to say?

Mr. Robert Fagan:

Absolutely, we are punching above our weight for a small country on the edge of the Atlantic Ocean. We want to grow that.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

They are alternative enterprises that we are trying to encourage. Mr. Potterton can speak from the eventing perspective because Irish event horses are sought worldwide. They are predominantly Irish bred and Irish produced. I will defer to Mr. Potterton who can probably speak better on that.

Mr. Niki Potterton:

In all of the affiliates, the most used Irish sport horse is ranked number two in the world. For the last few years, the Irish sport horse has been ranked number one in the world. A huge volume of foreign riders want Irish sport horses because of their ability to do cross-country well. In the European championships, the ground was not great and it was heavy going for horses, but the Irish sport horse succeeded best in it. The foreign-bred horse was not able for the conditions. Coming into our Olympic cycle, which is ten months away, we have a small window in which we need to bring the Irish sport horse to the fore. That is where it is. Eventing is the one area where the Irish sport horse is succeeding. More and more people want Irish sport horses.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Money generally buys people. It is as simple as that. Is there any fear of wealthy countries or wealthy people? Do we keep a stock of semen or whatever to keep the resource? There is no point in selling the golden trophy if there is nothing coming after it, to put it simply. Have we a backup plan so that in years to come we will not be looking across the water and saying, "They are our horses but we have the lesser ones now". Is there any security plan whereby we keep a certain amount secured for ourselves, so that we are able to compete as well?

Mr. Niki Potterton:

There is not anything official. However, there are breeders who see their progeny doing well and they keep a backup. The biggest challenge for the riders is that they have to live. Where we realise we have a special horse, a Government programme could come into play. In other countries, for eventing, the national federations buy into the horse in order to keep it in the country and it is then used by its national federation.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Does the Army buy into horses here?

Mr. Niki Potterton:

Yes, but that is for the Army's use. As I said, in other countries they have plans in place so that if they see a top-level horse on the market, possibly to be sold out of the country, they will buy into the horse and keep it in the country so that it will run for Germany, France, Belgium or whatever country. The horse will be given to a rider who has the best possibility of winning a medal on it. We should also look at these plans. Tax incentives might enable these horses to be kept. Our biggest challenge in eventing is that when a horse reaches its peak and starts to do well, someone comes in with a pile of money. The rider has to survive and live, so the only thing he can do is oust it on and hope there is another one in the yard that might come close to it. That is breeding. That agriculture money could be used to keep the horses in the country.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I welcome the people from all the disciplines of equestrian sport. I am an ally, a supporter. I was dragged up in pony clubs, eventing, cross-country and other equestrian businesses just off the Curragh in a little place called Narraghmore near Fontstown in County Kildare, for those who know that part of the country. I am with you all the way.

I read the six-page submission. The element of being vexed - not vexatious - came over clearly in the six-page submission. I am the son of a cattle dealer and we used to say in the trade, "What is the ask, or what is the deal?" and then seal the deal. My take here is the issue of corporate governance. Corporate governance works two ways. It works in relation to the witnesses' organisations, just as it does to Horse Sport Ireland. The witnesses talked about funding, and rightly so. We need to look at the funding model. They talked about the board membership and participation, not in sub-committees or below that, but at the heart of the core decision-making that governs their disciplines. That is their ask. That is what I take from it. We can talk about issues of trust. It is great to have trust. We can talk about issues of communication. However, they are all surmountable issues.

I want to congratulate those who are involved in qualifying for Paris in 2024. All the medals and prizes were excellent. It is a great success story. It straddles two areas. We are talking about agriculture, and equestrian disciplines and sport. The bulk of the money comes from the sports capital budget. The witnesses are not before the joint committee on sport but are before the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine. There is a case to make to get into the sports committee. That is important.

I tried to ascertain from a little research the breakdown of Government funding from the Department to the organisation.

I suppose that is something I would like to hear more about. Clearly, our guests are the experts. They know the field. They know the sport. They compete in the sport. They are highly competitive people. Equestrian people are competitive people. That is important to acknowledge.

As I said, I want to congratulate all those involved. I also want to acknowledge the huge voluntary aspects to this business. I know people who are involved in equestrian centres in Wicklow and all over the country and hawking and dragging their families and extended families to all these events does not come easy. It does not come cheap either. That is important.

In terms of the corporate governance, I take it that all the disciplines here are fully compliant with corporate governance. One or two of our guests are aspiring to be involved in terms of governance for Horse Sport Ireland in 2024. We are now in 2023. Can I have, from each of the disciplines, their compliance with the corporate governance? Are they happy? Are they up to speed fully with corporate governance in each of their organisations?

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

I suppose I can speak for showjumping, from its perspective. Showjumping carried out a full governance review over a two-year period overseen by Crowleys and have implemented almost all of the recommendations relating to corporate governance. We signed up to the Sport Ireland code of governance. We were acknowledged as a type C organisation. We are on the second year of the on-a-journey element of that. I would be satisfied to say that Showjumping Ireland in its current guise is very well governed, within its corporate requirements and its sport requirements.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I will tease that out. I am not doubting that. I just want to clarify that. There is a reason for my question which I am coming to. Some pieces of Showjumping Ireland's governance are outstanding, is what Mr. Corrigan is telling us?

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

Yes. There are some small elements of it.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Why is that and what areas are they?

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

The areas are ones where we were advised take an element of time, relating to the education of our board, the transition of our board and the length of term of our directors. Those things are predominantly the things that we are still staging through. We undertook workshops with Mr. Senan Turnbull, who is one of the architects and authors of the sport governance code for Sport Ireland. We have actually held workshops with Mr. Turnbull, who advised us on the methodology to follow. One of the things Mr. Turnbull highlighted to us was to not sign off and say we are compliant until we are satisfied we are almost beyond compliance.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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So that is Showjumping Ireland's position. It is not fully compliant as of yet.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

Not yet.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Okay. While I have Mr. Corrigan, because I am conscious that Showjumping Ireland is one of the big organisations and one of the biggest beneficiaries of the fund, which is fantastic, has Showjumping Ireland used its full allocation in each of the last two years? Is there any surplus sitting in Showjumping Ireland's accounts in relation to its allocation from Horse Sport Ireland?

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

To be clear, we do not get an allocation from Horse Sport Ireland. Showjumping Ireland, as an entity, does not receive any money from Horse Sport Ireland. It normally contributes to Horse Sport Ireland in relation to high performance. What we would see is activities that take place under the auspices and affiliation of Showjumping Ireland can benefit from funding that is sent through Horse Sport Ireland for breeding incentives.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Would Mr. Corrigan be in a position to tell the committee how much has Showjumping Ireland given back to Horse Sport Ireland through the international levy scheme?

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

Our levies, yes. Up to last year, we would have always contributed over €100,000 a year toward high performance. In the initial period of the start-up of Horse Sport Ireland, we were contributing over €200,000 a year towards Horse Sport Ireland's international performance.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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That is great. I thank Mr. Corrigan for that. Therefore, Showjumping Ireland does not receive any funding from Horse Sport Ireland.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

None directly to Showjumping Ireland.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Okay. Money that goes from the sport funding goes through the conduit, as such, of Horse Sport Ireland but it does not come back to Showjumping Ireland.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

It does not come back to us.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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That is grand. I will take the next one. What is Ms Kavanagh's position in terms of governance of her organisation?

Ms Marguerite Kavanagh:

As Mr. Corrigan said earlier, we have started along completing a series of workshops. We have completed a series of workshops on corporate governance. We have started down the road of complying with the compliance code of conduct - our code of governance with Sport Ireland. We have reviewed several of our policy documents, such as code of conduct, conflict of interest policies and safeguarding policies. We have stuck quite rigidly, as much as we can, to a certain terms of reference and how our boards operate. We still have a little bit to go.

We are a small affiliate. We only have one full-time person employed and it is taking a little time to get around. Sport Ireland is cognisant of that, as long as we can comply and explain, and we can do that.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I thank Ms Kavanagh. Is Dressage Ireland still working on its governance?

Ms Marguerite Kavanagh:

We are still working on it.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Okay. That is perfect. I thank Ms Kavanagh. What of Ms Reilly?

Ms Karen Reilly:

We, at Para Equestrian Ireland, are the smallest affiliate here. We are currently fully compliant with the governance and we have completed all the workshops as well. At the minute, we are a registered charity.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Therefore, Para Equestrian Ireland has double compliance. It has the charities regulator issues as well.

Ms Karen Reilly:

Yes. It means our accounts are audited and filed with the two bodies. We have to report to both the charities regulator and Companies House yearly. We have compliance everywhere.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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That is great. Mr. Potterton might just touch on that.

Mr. Niki Potterton:

Like showjumping, for the past year or two we have been on a path of compliance where we have engaged in workshops. We are working along with Sport Ireland to make ourselves fully compliant but the journey is nearly over for us as well. We are trying to keep up with the processes. We access sports capital grants. There is governance involved in all of that which we are fully compliant with. In the past few years, we have anything from €70,000 to €80,000, up to €90,000, for input into our high-performance programme within Horse Sport Ireland.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Of course, eventing is Mr. Potterton's specialty.

Mr. Niki Potterton:

Eventing Ireland, yes.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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What sort of funding does Eventing Ireland receive from Horse Sport Ireland?

Mr. Niki Potterton:

We probably received, through breeding grants, €8,000 to €10,000 from Horse Sport Ireland for running classes. Within events, they run a four-year-old class and a five-year-old one. We receive some funding, but not masses of it. That only goes to Irish bred four and five, or six, year old horses. It does not go towards the high performance programme.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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That is great. I suppose the point I am making is we are all moving in the right direction in terms of governance. This is the key issue made in its submission - its concern about governance.

Unfortunately, we do not have Horse Sport Ireland here today because I would be putting the same questions to Horse Sport Ireland and there have been concerns expressed about governance issues around it. Our guests know why the Minister changed the board and brought in other people.

The Minister - if one looks at his press releases and his announcements about the new directors - talked about the skill-based board. We must have skill sets. Of course, we must have equestrian people. I support the skill sets.

I am led to believe from what our guests have said on the public record that they have all engaged in a process to be considered for directorships. However, that has not been determined yet and we cannot say categorically where that is in the process. I am not privy to it. I do not think anyone here is privy to it. I do not know where the role of the Minister is in all of that. It may well be likely that we are looking at people here or representatives of the organisations who may be on the board in the near future. Is that a possibility?

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

If I can answer, it would be a possibility if those names came forward. I support the primary concern is what is being put forward as the mechanism by which those names will find their way for consideration to the board.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Is Mr. Corrigan not aware of that at present?

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

No more aware of it than what we would have heard on the record at this committee when we heard that an independent entity would do the preliminary selections and the board effectively would read through those recommendations and make appointments to the board. That would be the part that would concern us very much because we are moving further and further away from those who are at the grassroots. Those who will be affected have an ability to influence the decisions that are being made. I do not use the word "influence" loosely. I mean that we ensure the entities that are there that are investing all their members' money are able to be satisfied and to be able to go back to their big memberships and say that they are confident in the entity that is Horse Sport Ireland, that it is representative of their desires and aspirations, and it is listening to them.

That is the big thing; it is about listening to us and working with us.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Okay, I have heard all of that. I will finish by saying I am positively disposed to Showjumping Ireland, genuinely. I sit on the Oireachtas audit committee and other State board audit committees so I am conscious of that side of it. Would I be right to summarise it by saying that Showjumping Ireland is asking the committee to make representations? We will discuss this in private session later. Is it asking us to pursue the Minister to get more detail on how the process will work? We cannot interfere in the process, as Mr. Corrigan will appreciate, but we can get detail on how the process will work. People with skill sets around finance, governance, legal practices and other issues, as well as experts in competitive equestrian sports which the witnesses represent, need to be sitting on the board because they all have different skill sets to bring to the table. The witnesses are not sure about how the process is going. Is the committee being asked to make representations about ensuring there is a clear and transparent process and we understand the next steps, or all the steps, to complete the circle of the process? Is that what is being asked?

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

Yes. The clear transparent process, yes -----

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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In a timely manner.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

Yes, in a timely manner. We are looking for the involvement of the sporting stakeholders and industry stakeholders in formulating that process for selection and appointment. It is their input into it that will grow our industry and our sports and maximise how the funding is spent.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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The ask is clear. I thank Mr. Corrigan. I know he is full of energy, enthusiasm, vision and passion about this sport and I wish him well.

Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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I echo what the Senator has said. I welcome all the witnesses. I admire each group and what they have done for this country and the opportunities they have given young people and people throughout Ireland. I will keep my questions brief because I am speaking in the Dáil.

Will Ms Kavanagh outline Dressage Ireland’s experience of financial transparency and accountability in its dealings with Horse Sport Ireland? Does Dressage Ireland get any funding from Horse Sport Ireland?

Ms Marguerite Kavanagh:

As Mr. Corrigan has already alluded to, we give a financial contribution to high performance. It currently runs on a 2:1 model. Horse Sport Ireland also contributes to the programme. Since 2019 we have contributed €100,000 which should have released €300,000 into high performance. We get some funding through various grant proposals. Recently, the autumn development series has funding coming through the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, and we will be able to avail of some of that. That is where we are on that. Will the Deputy repeat the other question?

Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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Does Dressage Ireland get any funding directly from Horse Sport Ireland?

Ms Marguerite Kavanagh:

No. There is no direct funding except funding that will go out to our members through competitions, such as this autumn development series, which will be good for our breeders and good for producers.

Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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Does Ms Kavanagh think it should?

Ms Marguerite Kavanagh:

Yes, particularly in relation to high performance. It is becoming more and more difficult. We have had difficulty getting budgets approved or actually getting sight of budgets and that has really impacted our high performance. Horse Sport Ireland works within a constitution. It has its own committees and all the committees have terms of reference. I know from being part of the dressage high performance committee in the past that one of the key elements of that group is to review the spend at high performance level against approved budgets. However, that is where the issue is - we have not had approved budgets with a couple of years. More often than not, we get the actual spend but that is no good if the horse has already bolted. We need to be kept in the loop on where the money is going because we have members to whom we are accountable. It is important for us that we know that and that we have some influence over spending and can give advice on it.

Ms Karen Reilly:

ParaEquestrian Ireland is a charity so we have to fundraise all our money. Clear outlines of forecasts for budgets are hugely important for us. We have only 47 members now of whom 32 are riding, one is driving and 16 are international para riders. We have a contribution of €10,000 a year that we have to pay to the high performance committee, our contribution to HSI. To give some figures, in 2021, our membership was €550. In 2022 it was only €655. This year it has increased again, because we are putting a lot into our grassroots riders, to €1,100. Therefore, as a charity, clarity on budgets is of huge importance to us to fundraise and plan our year ahead so that we can make a clear contribution to HSI. It is a lot to ask of our 47 members to come up with €10,000 a year. We are disabled member riders so many more carers are needed. Our riders cannot warm up horses so we need our trainers to travel. We need clear fundraising budgets and clear goals to look forward to and we are just not getting that from HSI now. Our riders are pulling medals. In the last ten years, we have won six medals for this country between European, world and Olympic medals with a very small membership. We may be small but we are mighty. Clarity on budgets is a massive problem that we have with HSI.

Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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ParaEquestrian Ireland has 47 members. I gather, and I may be corrected, that Dressage Ireland has 860 members. I am afraid I do not know the rest. I have not done the research. It looks like those here are funding much of what is going on and Horse Sport Ireland is standing back and not delivering.

Ms Marguerite Kavanagh:

When we get sight of the figures we see that an extraordinary amount - three quarters of the budget - goes to high performance director fees so only a quarter is there for entry fees and athletes. We are on the fringes of Europe. Some of our athletes have to go to the UK. It takes 17 hours to get a horse from here over there and then they have to go from there on to Europe again. The horses have to be rested and so on. There is huge expenditure in that. The riders are really struggling. They are struggling to keep their high performance horses going. We need to give them the financial support. If we do not get sight over the budgets, we cannot plan. It is so important. Under the terms of reference of high performance groups, we are supposed to be able to review the programme against the spend but we are not being allowed that as stakeholders. Our plan in dressage did not work this year and it has not worked in the past two or three years. We need more oversight and we need to be treated more respectfully as important stakeholders. We are a voluntary organisation with one paid member and we are running the sport in Ireland. Surely we should be entitled to be able to come to the table and be valued as stakeholders, but we are not.

Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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I have one other question. Do the four groups here today have anyone on the board of Horse Sport Ireland? The witnesses are saying "No". That is an astonishing situation, to be quite honest. They are on the outside and they will be kept on the outside until that is rectified. Surely to God we can help so that each of the organisations here today can have at least one board member on the board of Horse Sport Ireland. That should result in a lot of changes, unless it does not want the changes.

Ms Marguerite Kavanagh:

The Deputy asked what our main asks are in terms of a solution. One thing I would like to see is a review of governance within Horse Sport Ireland. I understand there is a structural review going on now, which has been going on for months, which is quite a long time. I speak for Dressage Ireland. We have seen no change in the culture. In fact, the same situation arises where we have been omitted from important decisions on our sport. We nearly feel sometimes that Horse Sport Ireland is going on a solo run and it is leaving us behind.

Given the type C organisation that it is and the fact that it has to comply with the Sport Ireland code of governance, I understand that Sport Ireland ties in with Horse Sport Ireland at times to see how it is getting on and Horse Sport Ireland must give it an update. My view, whether it is correct or not, is that it is like self-certification. What I would like to see is an independent audit of governance within Horse Sport Ireland. That should involve the stakeholders and all of the affiliate members. They should be asked their opinion on how they feel Horse Sport Ireland is abiding by the Sport Ireland code of governance to which it has signed up.

Mr. Niki Potterton:

These are rough enough figures but on the funding front, I think Horse Sport Ireland gets in the region of €1.7 million from Sport Ireland for the high performance programme across the four affiliates here. The affiliates get about €800,000 of that and approximately €900,000 goes into the administration of the fund to us, and whatever other administration is involved in foreign entries and all of that. We in Eventing Ireland put about €70,000 or €80,000 into the fund and we get twice that back to spend. The issue we see with that is we put in the €80,000 but that is where it stops. We then have no input into what way that money is going, what direction and where it is being driven towards. That is down to communication. We feel we would just like to be more involved. We are a one third shareholder in the money that has gone in for our high performance budget yet we do not have any input into it. We would just like a little bit more clarity in order that we could sit down at a table and all discuss the high performance budget. I accept there is a huge divide-up and a lot of people need to get a few quid. Eventers are on the Government's top list of medal prospects for Paris. There is boxing and sailing and ourselves among the top levels that are recommended. We had a fourth place in the European championships and we are hoping to work on that to get into a medal slot in the Olympics. That is where we need a little bit of input. We need to see that drive from HSI towards Sport Ireland to say that here is a sport that is on the list as a medal prospect for Paris.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

The Deputy's first question was on whether sponsorship comes from HSI to ourselves. The answer to that is "No". HSI has some small sponsorship arrangements in place for the high performance teams which it administers and sends abroad through their chefs d'équipe. Their funding for that element of it, as Mr. Potterton alluded to, comes directly from Sport Ireland. It is the core fund and the high performance fund, which the affiliates are also obliged to contribute towards. As has been mentioned, we have traditionally done that. There is a 2:1 model for the distribution of the funding. It does not always meet the needs and requirements of the entity but that is the model. We are concerned that a large amount of it disappears in administration. We consider an awful lot of it to be a duplication of activities that take place across all the disciplines and across all the affiliates, which could assist if funding was better utilised. I am not trying to put people out of jobs but it is clear that we carry out a role which is being duplicated further on. Most of that work is now done electronically online or directly by the athletes themselves. It is not a case of doing entries any more; it is just confirming entries now.

Our other major concern across all the disciplines - Mr. Harper and everybody else alluded to it - is that of the money that comes from Sport Ireland, which we referenced, very little if any finds its way to the athletes, the owners or the producers. It is predominantly utilised for the payment of high performance chefs d'équipe, trainers, etc. We are looking for more to put into that but we know that cannot happen if there is not a good structure in place that everybody can stand behind. That is what we are really looking for.

An administrative review would have to be carried out on how the money is being spent. The high performance element would certainly have to be looked at. I can speak for our discipline, eventing and everyone. We have European medalists across the board. Every affiliate here has brought home medalists, from children through to the senior teams. In any other sport that would be worth approximately €1 million of corporate investment that would go towards funding all these activities on top of what the State has. What we are saying is that we have multiple athletes, breeders, producers and riders out there who are deprived of a chance of going and being able to shine. If they do not have a parent, sponsor, supporter or owner who has the means to put them forward, they have to sell that horse. It is like Mr. Potterton says; they have to sell the horse to survive. There is an underutilisation of our success. The reason for that, to a large extent, is that we are not joined up. That is what we are looking for all the time. We bring them from the grassroots right up to the minute they get on the ferry but once they get on the ferry they seem to become somebody else's property. That is a problem. They should not be somebody else's property. We have Irish eventing teams, showjumping teams, dressage teams and para teams and they should be rightfully called Irish. They should be supported with one block and one plan from start to finish. We should be able to follow that route for them. That is one of our biggest problems. We have multiple entities competing for ownership of success. We are creating the success. We do not want to own it, we want to support it, but we do not want to get into a kicking match about who does own it. How would we improve it? One of the best ways to improve it, because it would bring investment into our sport and industry, would be to get everybody singing off the same hymn sheet. They all need to be sitting on the same bench with the same ambition. I refer to HSI and all the affiliates. We are saying here that the only way that is going to happen is if the board is directed with an understanding of what the affiliates, the industry and the stakeholders are trying to do.

I hope that answers the question.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

It has put a huge cost on top of anybody travelling and, therefore, travelling to the UK now, there is an extra €1,000 straight away. There is a lot of extra bureaucracy in doing it. We have things like carnets to deal with. We have things like tariffs and licences to deal with. We have to travel across the UK whether we like it or not for animal welfare so we have to deal with them. There were exclusions in place that have now lapsed. They lapsed without anybody really knowing they were lapsing. Again, this comes back to this joined-up mechanism of the affiliates not always knowing what is going on because we are not told. We find out about it too late to do anything about it whereas if we have people in the room who know what is going on, we can pre-empt these things. We can save people money, hardship and heartache. We have the best athletes in the world in equestrianism. We have the best animals in the world. We produce them very well. All we really want to do is produce them better and do it collectively.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I want to pose a few questions. First, the industry, and the performances of our horses and riders, has never been in a better place. The Dublin Horse Show is an event we all attend and tune in to. The Irish team that was jumping that day with four horses and four riders. How many of those four horses were Irish-bred?

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

Two.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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If we went back a couple of years ago, that argument could have even been worse. There might have been an Aga Khan team with no Irish-bred horse. Our top riders are outsourcing the horses they want to ride. I just do not know how the industry can equate that angle. Mr. Corrigan sells very good horses for the international stage, yet our own best riders are not riding Irish-bred horses. I find that very hard to understand. He said earlier in his presentation that we should try to keep our best horses at home. I could not see how that would work in an economic sense because the man breeding his horses would want the best customer to buy them. I am a Tipperary man. There is a very good, thriving equestrian centre near me run by a very good businessman and excellent producer of horses. His business is really a joy to visit to see the way he is breeding stallions and advancing the breeding of his horses there. He has really come on in leaps and bounds in the past number of years. That is one thing I just cannot see. We have our own riders riding foreign horses and still we are saying that we do not want these horses to be sold on the open market. I cannot see that. If an American or German comes in and a top-class international horse can make very big money, I just cannot see how the two can be rationalised together. Now, I would love to see the situation. There are very wealthy people involved, definitely on the showjumping side at the moment. If the horse is good enough and the rider is there, those horses will stay at home. That balance will work itself out. We have to concentrate on breeding the animal, and we are breeding the animal. I think we will balance that out.

I will go back to last November when the board changed its format. How many board members were on Horse Sport Ireland at that stage?

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

When it changed over, there were nine.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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And all members resigned.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

Yes, eventually, all members resigned.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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That was a voluntary resignation.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

Yes, it was.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Showjumping Ireland had members on the board at that stage.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

No, the councils had made nominations to the board at that stage.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Who were the nine members on it? Only a couple of them were ministerial nominees. The rest of them-----

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

Yes, there were the ministerial nominees and then there were the chairpersons of the councils. Within Horse Sport Ireland, there were four advisory councils.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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The councils had the right to nominate a person on the board.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

The councils had, yes.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Why did the councils step down from Horse Sport Ireland?

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

The councils did not step down, but their representatives from the councils on the board.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

We believe from what we are told in their letters of resignation that they had concerns about governance issues. They had concerns relating to the manner in which Horse Sport Ireland was being run. They had financial concerns and concerns that they were not being briefed on all that was going in within Horse Sport Ireland. As we have been told, they had numerous votes on various matters relating to the retainment of executives or executives' contracts with regard to staffing issues within Horse Sport Ireland. Again, financial accountability and budgets seemed to be to the fore in what they were saying. Our understanding is that was the basis of their decision to resign.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. Corrigan saying then that decisions the board was making were not being carried out by the executive?

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

That is our understanding.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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The members stepped down then in unison and the Minister appointed a chairman and three board members subsequently. Some of them have knowledge of the industry or had some background in the equestrian industry anyway.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

We understand the current chairman was the author of the original Dowling report, which was one of the foundation stones of the original Horse Sport Ireland. Mr. Smyth was a Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine official who had oversight of Horse Sport Ireland funding requests and management. Then, of the other two board members, certainly, I know Ms. Zoe Kavanagh had an interest, and I do not want to be presumptuous, at an amateur level. She would not be a professional but, certainly, at an amateur level, she would have had an interest and partaken in amateur-type showjumping activity. I do not know if Professor Niamh Brennan has any equestrian knowledge.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Has the Minister indicated to Showjumping Ireland when he intends to restore the board to its November size?

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

No.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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There has been no indication. Showjumping Ireland has asked the Minister that question, obviously.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

We have asked the Minister. As we said earlier, we had written to both Departments of the Ministers with responsibility for sport and agriculture along with the committee previously. We did get a response that the Minister had appointed these members and that a review was ongoing.

Mr. Robert Fagan:

The advisory committees were all disbanded as well so there was no kind of-----

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I actually missed Horse Sport Ireland reporting to this committee. The day that representatives from Horse Sport Ireland appeared before the committee, I was unavoidably absent. I am, therefore, just trying to get a feel of where the background came from. The board was unhappy and its members felt that their instructions were not being carried out and they stepped down. Since that, the industry as such has had no direct representation on the board.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

No. The Cathaoirleach alluded to the councils earlier. In November when the new board came in, all committees were placed in abeyance. All high-performance committees and all councils were placed in abeyance and they have not been informed whether they will be reactivated.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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So, the industry is in a vacuum as such.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

Effectively, yes.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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If the Minister said in the morning that he was restoring the board to its nine-member size, is the same appointment structure going to be in place that it had, that is-----

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

The councils.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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-----the organisations will appoint someone? Has Showjumping Ireland a preferred option?

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

We do not believe so because the indication is that they are intending to go a completely new route as to how they will appoint the additional four directors and that this will be done on the basis of an outside process. Names will come forward, some from affiliates but some from industry stakeholders or anyone who is interested. They will be reviewed and sent to the board then as being suitable candidates, and the board will appoint them whereas before-----

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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It is not similar to HRI where each sector has the ability to nominate.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

Exactly. It will be different. It will be-----

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Okay.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

I am sorry; we can nominate someone to it but there is no guarantee that they will find their way through the vetting process.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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However, it is prescribed for HRI-----

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

Yes, correct.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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-----that should involve a person from the trainers association, the owners or someone, etc.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

Yes, and to a degree the old council system allowed us to do that because every affiliate had representation on the councils. Therefore, we would have found that for a period of time for a three-year term, eventing could have a chairperson of one of those councils sitting on the board. Showjumping, para equestrian or dressage might have one or other industry stakeholders who formed it would have had a member on the board.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Was there just an informal arrangement whereby the organisations nominated someone to the board? Was there no legislative structure for that?

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

It was provided for within the memorandum, articles and constitution of HSI. They set out, and still set out, that this is the mechanism by which the board members will be appointed.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I understand the Minister is going to change the structure of Horse Sport Ireland.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

That is correct.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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It is a fundamental point. I am not trying to cross-examine Mr. Corrigan but it is important to get a feel for exactly where we are at with the relationship between the organisations and Horse Sport Ireland. We need to get that relationship back on a working footing. That is probably bad English but it is what we need to do. The industry is not in a bad place. We see the prices young horses are making and we see our horses competing at a very high level. When there are worries about the structure of an industry, that has to be addressed in a timely way. There is no point in waiting until the industry starts to slip downwards. As Senator Boyhan said, we will discuss in private session later what the witnesses have said in the public meeting. The committee will come to a consensus and then pass on our views to the Minister. I expect him to come back to us and have a discussion about what we have said and how we would like to see the industry moving forward.

Deputy Fitzmaurice spoke about access to capital. I agree with him that sports capital grants are not the way to go. We need to put a structure in place like what is there for HRI and Rásaíocht Con Éireann, with a fund that can be accessed. That is the right structure to put in place. The sports capital grant is really for voluntary groups and non-commercial entities. If the horsebox is to be kept on the road, it must be a commercial entity. It definitely is not a charity. People must be able to pay the bills.

Deputy Flaherty and then Senator Boyhan wish to come in again.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chairman for letting me back in. It is fair to say we have heard a cry for help today from the sport horse sector, which is founded in a genuine concern among sport horse producers. It is great to see the sector doing so well. The Chairman stopped short of saying it is outperforming racing at this time. It is good to see that.

We need to crystallise one point. There might be some suggestion arising out of this meeting that there is an opportunity in the new board structure for the constituent groups to have representation on the new board. It is clearly set out in appendix 1 under the proposed guideline the skill set that is required of applicants. This seems to be so restrictive and exclusive that it would eliminate any of the nominees the organisations represented here today could put forward. Let us call a spade a spade. In reality, nobody from the witnesses' sector will end up on the newly constituted Horse Sport Ireland board.

I have a question arising from that. In regard to the four council nominees that were ready, in the likelihood of the Minister agreeing to press the pause button on the current review or proposing to reconstitute the board, would the witnesses be happy for those four nominees to be on the board at this point, if they were willing to do so? We have to take on board that the Minister's nominees are all very capable within their own industries and fields. They are experts in finance, business, economics, audit, public administration, corporate governance and all of that. However, this new board, if constituted in the direction outlined by Sport Horse Ireland and specifically in appendix 1, really will shut the door on the industry expertise we need on the board. Will Mr. Corrigan respond quickly on whether the appointment of the four nominees would be an agreeable path for the witnesses as very much an interim solution?

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

Yes, it probably would be an interim solution that would allow us to tease out the whole process and find what ultimately will work even better. We all recognise there were problems with what was there. We can acknowledge that. It did not work perfectly, as we said in our statement. We want to make it better, more inclusive and more supportive of the whole industry. The Chairman spoke about this. Our medals are predominantly created at home, by people in Mullingar, Cavan and Tipperary. I presume the Chairman was alluding to a place in Ballypatrick.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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We have Ryan's and Broderick's.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

He has operators on either side of him and I wanted to be careful about which one he might have been referencing. Ryan's in Tipperary is one of the main hubs for activities, driving on from ponies the whole way through. There are massive events running throughout the country, with huge investment by landowners to create event tracks. The venue owners are facilitating dressage and para equestrian. They are also providing the breeders with the marketplace for their animals. We are not here just to talk about high performance. There is the breeding side as well. We really want to support that because it is the breeders who create our sport. It does not happen if there is not somebody to breed the foal. If Greg Broderick decides he is not running a breeding operation, there will be 30 fewer horses travelling to young horse classes. That is the reality.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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That is a conservative figure.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

A total of 62 horses have travelled to Belgium and trotted up this weekend at the Jumping World Breeding Championship for Young Horses. In a couple of weeks, the eventers will head to Le Lion-d'Angers. Every year, we have come back with medals from Lanaken. We are at the top in the world and in Europe. We had two horses on the Aga Khan team. One of them is recognised as being one of the best horses in the world. That horse was produced here by an Irish rider, bred by an Irish person and, luckily enough, bought for an Irish rider. The evidence is that we can produce the riders and the horses. I go back to what I say all the time. If we were all working together, we could again have four horses on the team.

Mr. Niki Potterton:

This is the agriculture committee and we are coming in somewhat from the perspective of Sport Ireland. For us in eventing, there is a huge tie-in between agriculture, breeding and sport in that it is lovely when we see an Irish rider riding an Irish horse and winning a medal. If we do not have a breeding programme that encourages this, we will not have Irish riders on Irish horses. That is where the agriculture aspect arises. As Mr. Corrigan said, we all need to talk to each other and we need to bring breeding money into sport as well. Ultimately, Irish riders and horses winning medals is what Ireland need and wants, and that then helps our whole agricultural sport sector as well.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Egan wants to come in but I have limited time left. The committee would agree that sport horse production is the bedrock of agriculture in Ireland. We have a huge opportunity to reposition it as part of the changing face of Irish agriculture. If we put in proper funding and proper incentives for farmers, we can get back to the halcyon days of the Irish draught horse, before the foreign-bred horses came in.

The witnesses have given us a lot of food for thought today. I will not speak for other members but, for me, it is about trying to crystallise the key issues. Arising from today's deliberations, we will go into private session to discuss them. We need to write to the Minister with a couple of key requests, one of which should be for an immediate pause on any efforts to reconstitute the board of Sport Horse Ireland. I will suggest in our private meeting that we recommend that the four council nominees be appointed as an interim solution. Secondary to that, I will propose to the committee that we ask the Minister to initiate an external strategic review of the sport horse sector in Ireland, examining governance and, critically, HR within the sector, as well as funding, value for money and the growth potential for the sector. We all agree the potential is huge and there is a great opportunity in that regard. Specifically, we need to address the high-performance sector as to whether it is filtering down to dressage and para equestrian. There is a huge opportunity for growth in both those sectors. Ultimately, a review must set out provision for a very inclusive, responsive and focused industry body that best represents the interests of every constituent part. The witnesses have put their case eloquently to us today. At a time we are seeing unprecedented success on the world stage, it would be remiss of this committee not to make that intervention with the Minister. I certainly will be following it up forcibly with my colleagues. I expect we will have unanimity in our private session and we will then write directly to the Minister with those two key requests.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I would not like to pre-empt in any way what might happen in the private session.

The witnesses have certainly given us food for thought. At the end of the day, we do not have time now to go through the history of Horse Sport Ireland but the witnesses have given us food for thought. It was a nine-member board and people stood down for various reasons.

I want to be very clear because these are televised proceedings of the Oireachtas and we are all on the record in this House. It is important we reaffirm the credentials of the very able and capable people that the Minister appointed. We did not appoint them, the Minister did. I talked earlier about the skills base that is required for a board. Just as the organisations here have skills and should in some way be involved in the board, it is also important to note the three people there are doing exceptional work. I understand they have not completed their work, so it is a case of "watch this space" in terms of what they may have to do. It is important to put that on the record. No one is calling into question their skill sets, and the board includes former officials from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and someone who has a very strong record in corporate governance.

To finalise a few issues, the Cathaoirleach made a very good suggestion in terms of looking at the model of Horse Racing Ireland in terms of the representative feed into that. That is a model that seems to work and we have had no issues with it, so let us look at that. However, we must also be conscious of the skills base on the board and corporate governance. Boards tend to be getting smaller, and State boards are certainly getting smaller, and there is a heavy focus on that.

I repeat that it is a good news story and the witnesses have articulated it well. It is a good news story and anybody who follows any form of equestrian sport will know we take great pride in it, and it is great to see the enthusiasm that has been set out. Through our engagement here today, we have crystallised the asks, which are not that many. It is about corporate governance, finance, accountability, transparency and communication, and they are all things we can together work to achieve.

There is a question I forgot to ask. I see Mr. Corrigan is smiling and it is a question that might be more pertinent to his sphere of equestrian sport. I have been told by athletes who compete in equestrian sports that some of them have been requested to give back some of their prize money to the organisation. I do not know if there is a protocol or policy in place for that or if it is voluntary in nature. Mr. Corrigan might shed some light on that, without opening it up into a debate. Is there a situation where there are requests to competitors to surrender or hand over some of their prize money? Is it pro rata, is there a percentage or is it voluntary? This person suggested to me that there was an element of pressure to do so. I say that just to try to understand if that is the case because we need to understand the funding and we also need to look at the issues around prize money in terms of getting the money in and distributing it. There has been a lot of correspondence over many months in regard to prize money. Mr. Corrigan might touch on that.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

To clarify, does the Senator mean internationally or nationally?

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Any form of competition.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

If it is international, I cannot speak for that because it would be the remit of Horse Sport Ireland, which would be the one dealing with the international competitors. We can speak for the national events. Nationally, there is a very defined system where the membership model and the competition model have a levy and a payment scheme that is done in agreement with the many venues and the members when they become members. For Showjumping Ireland, from every round that is jumped nationally, it collects €1.50 from the entry fee, which goes back to the organisation. That is predominantly used to help fund insurance provision, of which we have a huge requirement in our sport. We are all in the unlucky situation where we are getting hit with massive insurance premiums for our activities. That money goes predominantly towards that.

From our prize funds for our high-end classes, a 10% levy is provided.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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A 10% levy on the prize.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

A 10% levy on the prize fund, so if it is €1,000, then €100 goes back into the development of the sport. In the old days, when showjumping ran the international element of the sport, we used to collect that for, let us say, international participation and high-end performance. When Horse Sport Ireland came in and we gave a round figure to it, we stopped that. We collect the money from the prize fund at 10% on top-end classes and 5% on all other classes. That money is collected and is clearly outlined in our accounts, and that goes back into the development of the sport. If someone is watching national showjumping this year, they will see that we run competitions for ponies across the board with significant prize money to support the industry, and that is ultimately where that money comes from.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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It is a significant comeback to Showjumping Ireland at 10% and 5%. I am just concerned that the organisation gets adequate funding. I am supportive of it. That is another form of income for Showjumping Ireland.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

It is a form of income. It would not be as substantial as one thinks because we have an awful lot of classes that are €150, so we are getting 5% of €150.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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That clarifies that question.

Mr. Ronan Corrigan:

We reinvest that in a prize fund so it actually just revolves and goes back out.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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There is an element of that in horse racing as well, with different levies for jockeys injury funds and so on.

Mr. Robert Fagan:

Because we run a lot of these events, we are the ones who have to source that prize money, which is a huge challenge every year. Through sponsorship and support, we give €200,000 or €300,000 at different events throughout the year. To compare it to racing, racing does not have the same challenge we have.

As to what we want out of this meeting today, from the venues' point of view, we would like recognition on the board. We have an alliance. We are holding the party and we are putting our own hands in our pockets because we are passionate about it and because that is all we know. What we would hope to take from this today is that the venues could get either a memorandum of understanding or representation on the board of Horse Sport Ireland. It was referenced at the last meeting here by the CEO that we are a loose organisation. For the past six years, we have been an organisation and we have a memorandum of understanding. We have looked for dialogue with Horse Sport Ireland and we have not got it. On numerous occasions, we have been told we will get it the next week or the next month. We feel very disillusioned because we have a major stake in the game. Everyone works together and gets on well together but there is one catalyst that is just not working for us at the moment.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I do not think there is any need to be disillusioned. It is an industry that is in a good place. I am not saying that everything is perfect but we have an interim board in Horse Sport Ireland which came in in difficult enough circumstances when the board disbanded. What I would see as our job is to deal with the issues that need to be ironed out between the Minister, the various organisations and Horse Sport Ireland and to get a structure in place that can drive this industry forward. As a committee, we have had Horse Sport Ireland before us previously. The various organisations requested to come in today and they have outlined the issues they have in the industry at the moment. As I said, while there are problems and issues, it has to be recognised that Irish horses are very much sought after and we can see that in the prices they are making. Our riders and horses are performing very well on the world stage.

We have heard what the witnesses had to say. As has been said by others, we are meeting in private session and we will be giving a summary of this to the Minister as to how the industry can work together and move forward. I personally would like to see the board of Horse Sport Ireland coming up to its proper membership. As good as the four board members are, to have the board up to its full membership is desirable for the industry going forward. To have the industry at that table to be able to put forward their views is essential for the future strategy of the industry. As I said, we will not pre-empt matters. We have heard clearly what the witnesses had to say here today. I thank them for coming in to us for what was a very worthwhile session.

The next public meeting of the committee will take place at 5.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 27 September, when the agenda will be the resumption of our discussion on the development of the sheep sector. As there is no further business today, we will adjourn.