Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the witnesses and those in the Public Gallery. Deputy John Brady will attend in substitution for Deputy Andrews and Senator Marie Sherlock will attend in substitution for Senator Annie Hoey. The following Members have also requested permission to attend: Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett and Senators Timmy Dooley and Eugene Murphy.

I advise non-committee members attending that I do not intend to extend the meeting any longer than the three hours that have been scheduled and I will only provide non-committee members with speaking time after committee members have finished. Last week, the meeting went for maybe five hours. Our witnesses today have spent three hours before a committee this morning and have come in here voluntarily and, therefore, I will stick to the three hours allocated to us.

The committee is meeting with Mr. Ryan Tubridy and his agent, Mr. Noel Kelly, to consider matters relating to the ongoing examination of transparency of RTÉ's expenditure of public funds and governance following the RTÉ board's statement of 22 June 2023. The committee has agreed that Mr. Tubridy and Mr. Kelly will be accompanied by their legal representatives.

I wish to explain some limitations regarding parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references made by witnesses to other persons in their evidence. We have a bit of housekeeping to go through so I hope the witnesses can bear with us while we do that. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. Witnesses are again reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity.

Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, witnesses will be directed to discontinue their remarks.

Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also remind members again of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House to participate in the public meetings. I will not permit a member to attend where he or she is not adhering to that constitutional requirement and where a member is attending remotely. As such, members should please confirm that they are attending from Leinster House before making a contribution via Microsoft Teams. I do not think that impacts on any of my colleagues here today, however.

I also emphasise to members and witnesses alike again that it is imperative that today's meeting is conducted in a fair and respectful manner at all times. It is important, in the interest of natural justice, that members and witnesses act responsibly on utterances concerning those present today and particularly those who are not present. I will intervene in exchanges where I deem this not to be the case. I also seek members' agreement that we suspend at 4.30 p.m. to give our guests and witnesses and members' themselves a ten-minute break. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The agenda for today's meeting is matters relating to the ongoing examination of transparency in RTÉ's expenditure of public funds and governance following RTÉ's board's statement on 22 June 2023. The committee welcomes that fact that Mr. Tubridy and Mr. Kelly wish to fully co-operate and assist with examination of these matters. It is timely and certainly in the public interest that they set out their position. Mr. Tubridy and Mr. Kelly have been advised of areas of focus for today's meeting, which we will try to stick to, which has been convened to consider matters relating to the committee's ongoing examination of transparency in RTÉ's expenditure of public funds and governance around the statement RTÉ made on 22 June.

We note that the opening statements have been supplied. I appreciate that the witnesses have already gone through them, but I understand they want to do that again because, obviously, they are mindful of the fact that they are not just speaking to the committee but to the public. As witnesses know, we have curtailed time. Is there any way their opening statements could be condensed into three minutes or would they prefer to speak freely about them? What way would they like to do that?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

First of all, it is very nice to be here. I thank all our Senators and Deputies for their time today. We read the opening statements into the record before the Committee of Public Accounts earlier. That is not to disrespect this committee, however. If the Cathaoirleach wishes, we will happily read our statements again. They are lengthy, but it is entirely up to her.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not necessary. I do not think my colleagues need that because they listened to the earlier meeting.

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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It is a reasonable proposal not to read them again. I think everybody watched the meeting this morning.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will take it that the statements have been read. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Is the Cathaoirleach sure? I am happy to do it.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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No, I think everybody was watching the earlier meeting. On that basis, we will move to questions from the members. As colleagues know, they have ten minutes each for their questions and answers. The should be mindful of how they want to use those ten minutes. I thank both witnesses for coming today. As I said at the beginning, this is voluntary and we do appreciate that. I am sure the witnesses, as well as everybody in this room, realise the importance of all this around our public service broadcaster, RTÉ, and its continuation into the future. I thank them very much.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

I would also like to reiterate something I said earlier, which is that we both want to say how much we respect the Oireachtas as an institution, but also the work of the committee. We are very happy to be here.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Tubridy very much. Without further ado, I will turn to my colleagues. I ask Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan to take the floor.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank our witnesses for attending a gruelling three-hour meeting. It cannot be easy. I certainly would not like to be in their shoes at this point. Fair play to them for offering to come in to try to clarify many of the issues that have arisen over the past three weeks. That is commendable.

That said, the Committee of Public Accounts session has posed further questions. I particularly want to focus on the raising of those two €75,000 invoices.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Sure.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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The fact is that they were clearly raised with the description "consultancy fees". It is fair to say that I doubt anybody watching the previous session believed it when they saw that they were raised for consultancy fees, which they clearly were not for. We heard that these particular invoices were raised under CMS Marketing as opposed to NK Management, which would be usual. People are incredibly sceptical and very questioning. They have serious doubts as to whether Mr. Kelly did not knowingly conceal these payments and that he did not work with RTÉ in knowingly concealing the fact that these payments were coming from RTÉ. Can Mr. Kelly respond to that? That is the mood out there.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Sure. I thank members for having us here. Were there deceptive practices on behalf of RTÉ? There were, and we were deceived as well, as we said earlier. We had no knowledge whatsoever of the arrangement and no part of it.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Kelly knew they were described as being for consultancy fees and they were not for consultancy. That is the doubt everybody has.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

We were instructed by RTÉ to make the second and third invoices for the Renault roadshow out to Astus for consultancy services and send them to RTÉ and it would look after them from there.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, we have heard-----

Mr. Noel Kelly:

I am sorry; at the time, we did not know what Astus was, but we presumed it was a subdivision of Renault.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Can Mr. Kelly understand why people are sceptical? Can he understand why people have concerns around the fact that "consultancy fees" was the description?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

I can, but they are the facts.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Kelly said earlier that he was just following a process. Is he aware of any process either in corporate governance or accounting that allows for an invoice to be raised with a description it is not actually for?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Again, it was what we were asked to do. As I said, we are small company. RTÉ is a €350 million massive organisation.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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That is a serious mismatch.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

The Deputy has to appreciate that is the process if somebody asks whether we can invoice for something. Again, we were acting under instructions at all times.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. On the same issue, and I am not being facetious here, but how would Mr. Tubridy describe his profession?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Broadcasting or broadcaster.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Never consultancy.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Not necessarily, no. I do not know how anyone else chooses to describe my job but I know what I do.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Tubridy has never partaken in consultancy. He does not do consultancy as his profession. He is a broadcaster.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

I do not know what the dictionary definition of "consultancy" is. I am not being smart, but I suspect the answer is "No".

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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That comes back to Mr. Kelly's part in this and the raising of the invoices. He knowingly raised the invoices with the term "consultancy fees". Mr. Tubridy knows he is not a consultant. I am sure Mr. Kelly knows that Mr. Tubridy is not providing consultancy-----

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Yes.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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-----in any way, shape or form. What I am trying to get at here is whether Mr. Tubridy still has full trust and faith in Mr. Kelly-----

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Yes, I do.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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-----considering that it seems to be clear to everybody that there was some form of deception with RTÉ and Mr. Kelly using the term "consultancy fees", and also using a separate company that had never been used before. Does Mr. Tubridy still have full faith?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Yes, I do have full faith in Noel. He was doing his job and in the course of his job, he was given instructions and he carried them out.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Tubridy is happy that those instructions were to raise the invoices for "consultancy fees" and he just did that without asking any questions.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

We would never have discussed that. If I were to-----

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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However, now that Mr. Tubridy knows-----

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

The Deputy is asking after the event. It is a bit late now but I think that if I were to look at so many of the things I have been hearing at the various Oireachtas hearings over the last two weeks, there is a lot of room for better practice around the place. I suspect that as of Monday, with a new director general, that is going to happen.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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That is not-----

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

In some ways, this is cathartic for RTÉ.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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-----quite the question. The way the Committee of Public Accounts meeting played out this morning over three hours is that many questions were put to Mr. Kelly about the description of the invoices as "consultancy fees" and the fact that they came from CMS Marketing, which was different to where they would usually come from. There are many doubts among the public. With Mr. Tubridy knowing that now and all of this being brought up at today's Committee of Public Accounts meeting, can he still honestly say, despite the public sentiment out there, that he still has full faith and that he will continue to let Mr. Kelly represent him?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Yes, I will.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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We heard the new director general, Mr. Kevin Bakhurst, on RTÉ radio yesterday when a question was put to him specifically with regard to Mr. Kelly. He was asked whether he would work with agents like Mr. Kelly again and was asked to give a "Yes" or "No" answer. He said he could not give a definite "Yes" or "No" but, to paraphrase, he said that in all likelihood, it is a "No". Does that not put Mr. Tubridy's future at RTÉ in serious jeopardy?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

No, it does not. I can still work with Mr. Kelly and negotiate an agreement with RTÉ.

They are different jobs. RTÉ is one element of what I do for a living.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Potentially, any future arrangement Mr. Tubridy has with RTÉ would exclude Mr. Kelly's services.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

What would Mr. Kelly say to that?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Not necessarily. If I could add to that, we manage a number of people. Most of them are not full-time broadcasters. They do bits and pieces of work. I represent them. I am their shop steward. I am their union. I am the only thing between them and absolutely nothing.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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But the-----

Mr. Noel Kelly:

I am sorry; we have to get this right. Is the Deputy saying to me that the director general would say that these people-----

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Did Mr. Kelly hear the director general's comments yesterday?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

I read them. Is the Deputy saying these people cannot have representation? They are not all the top three.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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What I got from those comments was that, in all likelihood, he would not be willing to work with Mr. Kelly again.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

It was not a flat "No" but we will have to see.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Regarding the €150,000, I am just trying to get the bottom of things here and establish facts. When did the €150,000 for those two latter invoices, the two €75,000 invoices, go to the witnesses? I presume they would have gone to Mr. Kelly's account first.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

We would have invoiced them. We would have invoiced Astus and then they were paid. The first invoice was paid by Renault and the second two invoices were paid-----

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Together?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

-----by Astus. The first three events have happened so those two invoices are for the next six events that are still contracted.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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I just want a direct answer to the actual questions. When did the €150,000 for those latter two invoices go into the account? Was it the CMS account?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

It was 2022.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Either Mr. Tubridy or Mr. Kelly might be able to answer this. When did they go into the Tuttle Productions account? I presume the payment of €150,000 would have then gone from Mr. Kelly into the Tuttle account.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

I do not have that information. I do not know when that was.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Could Mr. Kelly find out that information?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

It will be in the 2022 accounts.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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It would have been prior to the publication of RTÉ's top earners on 15 February 2023. What I am trying to get at here is that Mr. Tubridy would have seen this €150,000 come into his account. He would have then seen that it was not represented in the payments as published in February 2023. I know he has apologised for it before but-----

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Sorry, RTÉ's 2023 publication is only for 2020-21 earnings. Generally they are three years behind. As I said this morning, we get ten minutes' notice that these are going out.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Which years did the invoices relate to?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

The invoices related to 2021-22.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Part of the earnings that were published in February 2023 would have been related to 2021 as well.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Those are still to be done.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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I have one minute left so I will move on. In July 2020, Mr. Tubridy got a letter addressed to him from the then director general, Dee Forbes, stating, "The purpose of this correspondence is to record in writing our guarantee and undertaking that the fees set out in this Agreement will be paid by RTÉ without any reductions and RTÉ shall not make any request or enquiry from you in relation to a reduction in the agreed fees during the currency of the Agreement save as to those that might be imposed by changes to legislation". Essentially, it is a letter saying that Mr. Tubridy will get no further reduction in fees or earnings. How does that sit with him, knowing that colleagues around him were taking pay cuts left, right and centre but he got what was essentially special treatment? If I was to receive a letter saying I would not receive any further pay cuts but Deputy Dillon did not get the same letter, that would be special treatment for me. How does that sit with Mr. Tubridy?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

It is important to mention the 40% pay cut I have taken. That would be a relevant figure in these conversations. Some numbers have been isolated somewhat unfairly and the truth of the matter is that I did take pay cuts. Since 2012 or more-----

Mr. Noel Kelly:

For the six years between 2012 and 2020.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

From 2012 to 2020 it was a total sum of approximately 40%.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Tubridy received a letter from the director general that no other member of staff or employee, to my knowledge, would have received. Does that not scream special treatment?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Can I answer that? That was a request that was in the contract negotiations. It was because there was €120,000 of the €345,000 that was never invoiced for and never taken. Mr. Tubridy had never invoiced it so he decided not to take that payment. In the 2020 contract, which was for 2020 to 2024, he reduced his earnings voluntarily by €105,000 so that was €525,000 plus the €120,000 he did not take. Overall from 2012-----

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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That is not really what I am asking.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

I know but-----

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy O'Sullivan, I am going to have to draw this to an end.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is fair. My last question is to Mr. Tubridy. In his opening statement he said he took a 20% pay cut. I thought Deputy McAuliffe's questioning earlier very clearly outlined that in fact, this was not a 20% pay cut because those €75,000 invoices were coming from RTÉ. They were underwritten by RTÉ, coming from the licence fee holder and the taxpayer and going into Mr. Tubridy's account. Does he accept now that it was not a 20% pay cut?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Unfortunately not. This is one of the great fog of war situations. The money that came in - an enormous amount of money; I do not deny that for a moment - came, as we understood it, from Renault. We thought it was a side agreement. It was a totally different agreement entirely. It was an independent contractor agreement that Renault was paying for. That was the understanding. That is what I was told and I had to accept that for what it is. I cannot operate in a sort of never-never land.

Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Now Mr. Tubridy knows how it worked. It was an underwriting. Those two €75,000 invoices were underwritten by RTÉ, paid for by RTÉ, the taxpayers and TV licenceholders to Mr. Tubridy's account. Does he not accept that he actually has not taken a 20% pay cut because it represents much less than that?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Again-----

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sorry Deputy O'Sullivan but I will have to conclude. I call Deputy Dillon.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank our guests for the earlier session.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

We meet again.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It was very constructive. I will follow on from Deputy O'Sullivan's line of questioning. RTÉ previously stated that it never made cash transactions to the barter system for presenters and that this situation was particularly unusual. It outlined that the primary use was for media companies in exchange for goods and services. Has Mr. Kelly ever made any cash payments through the bartering system?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

No. We had no knowledge of the arrangements. We had no part in suggesting it or setting it up. We were not consulted about it.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why were you-----

Mr. Noel Kelly:

We were not told at any stage about the nature of it.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I want to get as much information from the witnesses as possible. Members only have ten minutes so I ask Mr. Kelly to allow the Deputy to ask his question.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Sorry.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Why would Mr. Kelly not make a cash transaction through a barter system?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

I had never come across a barter system before this. This was the first.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We know from earlier this morning that in 2018, Mr. Kelly used Astus for a transaction for his charity.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

No, we did not.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That was clarified this morning, was it not?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

No. RTÉ took a table last year and it put that through Astus.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Not at all.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will retract that statement. As I previously examined this morning, RTÉ raised an invoice with Mr. Kelly's company, CMS, for payment by a third-party company, Astus, which Mr. Kelly did not know and which RTÉ had never previously dealt with. Mr. Kelly was under the instructions of the commercial manager, Geraldine O'Leary, not to put Mr. Tubridy's name on the invoices. Is that correct?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Yes. As I said, we did not know who Astus was and we presumed it was related to Renault.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does that not sound bizarre to Mr. Kelly? A note on the invoice sent to Geraldine O'Leary clearly stated "Do not put any person's name on the Invoice". Did Mr. Kelly ask the commercial manager to do that?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

I can only reiterate-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We have seen the email that went to Geraldine O'Leary with a note that said not to put any person's name on the invoice. Did Mr. Kelly instruct that?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

No. They sent that to us.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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This was sent to Geraldine O'Leary.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

No, Geraldine O'Leary's person sent it to us.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Did Mr. Kelly instruct that person to not put a name on the invoice?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

No. We were, again, acting under instructions from RTÉ.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Who instructed Mr. Kelly?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Geraldine O'Leary.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This email did not come from Geraldine O'Leary. It went to Geraldine O'Leary.

It said that if it was sent back she would sort everything out. We took comfort from this. What was done was as per RTÉ's request and instructions.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It just does not add up why RTÉ went to such lengths. It did itself, the taxpayer and its own reputation so much damage to protect Mr. Tubridy's name.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Mr. Tubridy was doing events for Renault, not for RTÉ. Renault is the sponsor. He was doing events for Renault. We were paid by Renault. We understood this money would be paid by Renault, and there are still two years of events owed for Renault.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Did Renault reduce its overall advertising bill with RTÉ, to cover this separate contract?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Again, we have no relationship with Renault. That is between Renault and RTÉ. I have no knowledge of their advertising or sponsorship. We would not be party to any of that.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Kelly is not aware if Renault was going to divert the existing advertising budgets for RTÉ to cover a new contract, or a separate contract he was negotiating on behalf of Mr. Tubridy.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

No. Completely not.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Okay. Mr. Kelly is completely washing his hands of the deal, of which he and Mr. Tubridy were going to be sole beneficiaries.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

This deal was constructed by RTÉ with Renault, for Renault. We were-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is very difficult to accept that.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

It was a completely separate contract for services. Mr. Tubridy's contract is for 205 radio shows and 38 two hour-plus television shows. This is completely separate, as would be his publishing and other work.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Mr. Kelly was the sole beneficiary and was going to get a commission fee for it. Mr. Tubridy was going to get an extra top-up payment on top of this salary. However, Mr. Kelly is telling me he was following instructions from RTÉ.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Yes, and this is a separate contract for services.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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RTÉ made you do it.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

We acted under its instruction, as the Deputy can see. That is why we have come here and provided all of this documentation.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The alleged method suggests that Mr. Kelly collaborated with RTÉ, as I said at the previous committee, to engage in secret payments through the barter system.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

I am not RTÉ. That is a question for RTÉ.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Kelly was the beneficiary of this, with the intention of hiding the payment for your client. Is that correct, or can he provide clarification to address the accusation?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

I am sorry, will the Deputy repeat that one more time?

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

RTÉ would normally never do cash transactions. By putting this payment through the bartering system, was there an intention to hide the payment made to your client, Mr. Tubridy?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

We were instructed by RTÉ that all invoices for the Renault roadshow were to be sent to Astus, for the services as they had stated.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

During an online meeting in May 2020 between Mr. Kelly, the former DG, RTÉ's solicitor and a colleague of Mr. Kelly's, a verbal guarantee was given by RTÉ to underwrite the Renault commercial agreement. Is that correct?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Yes, but previous to that Breda O'Keefe had-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, no. I am talking about this, which was in May 2020.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

It had been agreed by RTÉ.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Kelly must have been aware it was the taxpayers' money from RTÉ, and not Renault's payment, that would be supporting these invoices.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

At every juncture we expected this was Renault. Renault is still-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Renault was not in a position to renew the contract for "The Late Late Show" in 2020.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Why were they not?

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was it not a case that-----

Mr. Noel Kelly:

No, Renault is still the sponsor.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is still the sponsor, but what about the tripartite agreement to underwrite payments?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

No. I say again, that anything to do with sponsorship and advertising is between RTÉ and Renault. That is completely a relationship between RTÉ and Renault. It is nothing to do with us at all.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Kelly must accept he played a pivotal role as the conduit to these under-disclosed payments. Blaming it on RTÉ now seems difficult or for us to accept as credible.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Okay. I say to the Deputy that in organisation that turns over 350-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not the question.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Will the Deputy let me answer, please?

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not the question. Mr. Kelly will answer the question

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Kelly will answer the question.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

I know, but-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He played a pivotal role in this through the barter system-----

Mr. Noel Kelly:

RTÉ, under instruction, asked us to do this at the time.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----for a cash transaction, which did not have Mr. Tubridy's name on it.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

We did not know what a barter system was until all of this happened.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Kelly is washing his hands of it.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Completely. It is an RTÉ issue.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have some final questions for Mr. Tubridy, relating to the discrepancy between what he was paid and what was published.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Yes.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why did he not ask questions at the time?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Is the Deputy referring to the years 2017, 2018 and 2019?

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

This is about the reporting of my remuneration and why I did not object to it at the time. Am I right in saying that?

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

I need to begin with the 2015 contract, which ran until 2020, just to be sure. It states clearly how much I was to be paid every year of the five year contract, for hosting "The Late Late Show" and the radio show. In addition to these sums, the contract states that I was to be paid a further €120,000 in what has been variously called an exit fee or loyalty bonus.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In reality, Mr. Tubridy was not aware of what he was being paid.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

In reality, this was a fee to be paid at the end of the contract where I would make myself available at any stage during the contract to do additional, optional work for RTÉ. As it turned out, when that contract concluded in 2020 I was not called upon to deliver any of these additional pieces of work. Although I was entitled to payment for making myself available, I waived this entitlement. I did not issue any invoice on the basis that I did not want to be paid for work I did not do.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This question is for Mr. Kelly. That is even though two invoices for €150,000 still have not been-----

Mr. Noel Kelly:

There are still six events due.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The invoices are still sitting there.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

We are contracted to do another six.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Where is that money now? Whose account is it in?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

That is in the Tuttle account.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Even though he is not "The Late Late Show" presenter.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

That is only now.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is that money, which should go back to-----

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Absolutely. The reality with that is there----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has Mr. Tubridy started on that-----

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

There has been no contact on that issue. However, that is referring to six outstanding appearances that were to be made for Renault. As the Deputy knows, I made the decision to leave "The Late Late Show" last summer. The stories are conflating a little, but we can get to that later. That work is still outstanding. If I am not called upon to do that work, the money will of course go back.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is Mr. Tubridy still being paid by RTÉ?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Yes, I am.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What are the terms of the verbal agreement in place?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Does the Deputy mean as presenter of the radio programme?

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

I could be out of a job by Friday.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the witnesses, arís.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

It is good to see the Deputy again.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want to start by saying that I would much prefer to be focusing on the abysmal lack of corporate governance in RTÉ. However, the witnesses asked to come here to put their side on the record, and answer questions. I will start with Mr. Tubridy. He sat through three hours this morning, followed by a one hour break. On reflection, does he accept, as another Deputy suggested, that he did not take the 20% pay cut, when the tripartite agreement that paid him €75,000 is taken into account?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

I understand why that perception is out there, but we have tried hard to explain the difference between being paid separately by Renault versus being paid by RTÉ, and the pay cut involved. There is also a need to explain the accumulation of pay cuts that take it to a 40% pay cut since 2012. I have tried to reflect on that. However, the Deputy's question is a fair one and I will try to answer it. I of course understand why there is confusion, and why there is a perception issue, but it is not right.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is fair enough, but in reality, which is why I said that, RTÉ footed that bill through the public purse. It had no business underwriting a separate commercial deal. They actually paid the €375,000 payments.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

No, no. I am sorry. I say this really respectfully. This is why I am in such a terrible state at the moment.

It is because there has been so much misunderstanding and misreporting about this and about these figures. The figure the Deputy just mentioned is not a real figure at all. It is not a fair figure.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Right. Okay.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

It just gets thrown at your head. That is why we are here today: to try and right that because, unfortunately, like that story, "Doubt", when a feather leaves the pillow, it is very hard to get that back. So unfortunately, with my good name, the feather has left the pillow and I am here trying to put the feather back in the pillow.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I hope that Mr. Tubridy can put the feather back in the pillow.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

I appreciate that. I thank Deputy Munster.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The payments of €75,000 for the second and third year were paid by RTÉ.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Again, they were paid by Astus.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, but RTÉ made those payments to Astus.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

The payments to us were from Astus.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, but they came from RTÉ.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

But we did not know that.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

That is it.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, but that is what I am saying.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

That was the misunderstanding.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

We did not know that.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The witnesses know now in hindsight.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Yes.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Whether Mr. Kelly knew at the time is another question, but he knows now that RTÉ paid those payments. That was my question to Mr. Tubridy initially about the tripartite agreement making up for the 20%. Even if he disputes that, which is fair enough-----

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

What I would say to Deputy Munster is that it was for work outstanding, separate to what I had done previously in RTÉ. It was meant to be a separate contract but the whole thing got muddled.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

In fairness to Deputy Dillon, who asked the question about what happens the money if I do not do the work for Renault; the money goes back. I do not want money for nothing, for goodness' sake. Of course. I totally understand. I hope that answers Deputy Munster's question a bit better than earlier.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. Just in relation to that, now that Mr. Tubridy knows that RTÉ paid for those payments, does he accept that it was wrong of RTÉ to use the public purse to pay that?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

What I would say to the Deputy is that I am not here to be critical of RTÉ. I have been working there since I was 12 years old. It is a very important place to me, but I have to defend myself. The new director general of RTÉ has asked for maximum transparency. That is what he said in the last 48 hours. That is why I am here.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay. So Mr. Tubridy accepts that it was wrong for RTÉ to pay those top-ups out of the public purse.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

It strikes me as being unorthodox.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay. That is fair enough.

I want to ask Mr. Kelly a question. I find it very hard to believe or I just do not find it credible that he said earlier this morning that RTÉ initiated this whole deal – that RTÉ was the instigator of this tripartite deal. I cannot figure out why, if his client was the only one to benefit from such a deal, RTÉ would be the one to initiate a deal and to develop it, even though it would cost it money by underwriting it? It is clear that Mr. Kelly wanted a commercial deal - otherwise, he would not have entered into it in the first instance - and a guaranteed and underwritten payment by RTÉ. At the same time, we were watching Covid spread from the east. In February, while the emails were going back and forth on this deal, Italy had already gone into lockdown. Was it not the case that Mr. Kelly saw a way for income to be guaranteed by RTÉ and that he locked RTÉ into that agreement that it would have to forfeit? As it transpires, that is exactly what happened.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

I did the contract before Covid. The contract was done at the start of 2020 and Covid happened in March 2020.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have just told Mr. Kelly that Italy had already gone into lockdown in February. These emails were going back and forth in February, and Mr. Kelly had requested that RTÉ would underwrite the agreement. He told us that this morning. He had requested that RTÉ would lock the agreement and that it would be the fall guy if any sponsor pulled out or in the event of a lack of any other sponsor. He knew Covid was there. He knew the lockdown had already started, and the likelihood was that it was going to come across, and that was his way of locking in RTÉ. As I have said from the beginning, the one who is ultimately responsible for all of this is the executive board of RTÉ. It is the one that underwrote a commercial deal, which it had no business doing. It is the one that raised false invoices. The response Mr. Kelly gave to that is not credible either. It also put those payments through the barter account. Is it not true that the only person who benefited from this deal was Mr. Kelly's client?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

No. On the question of who would benefit from this deal, obviously Renault was a major sponsor – I assume probably the biggest sponsor in RTÉ's portfolio. RTÉ obviously wanted to keep it on board. Who would benefit by having Ryan Tubridy doing roadshows for five years? Renault would, because the association would obviously continue for that five years and then I assume that RTÉ would keep Renault on as a sponsor. The relationship of RTÉ is with Renault, it is not with us. In relation to the actual contract, this started long before Covid really hit, which was 13 March 2020, when people had to work from home. This was well before that. On what I asked it to do, I never wanted RTÉ to underwrite this. This was always the relationship, with a separate agreement for Renault. What I wanted RTÉ to do applied in the event that there was a change of sponsor. There still is not a change of sponsor. Renault was always going to pay for this. If there was a change of sponsor, we would be a part of the agreement so that it would not be a case of "You have to do this" or "You have to do that".

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

But Renault did just have a one-year agreement.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

No, it was a five-year agreement. Renault is still the sponsor, but the first two years, 2020 and 2021, were pushed out because of Covid. The first lot of events happened in 2022 and then the other six are owed. As Mr. Tubridy said, if they want them to be honoured and we are still in contract, he will honour them, and if they do not, he will hand the money back.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

But RTÉ had underwritten that agreement at Mr. Kelly's request.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

What RTÉ was underwriting with me was that it would interact with whatever new sponsor was there. Again, it was all under instruction from RTÉ.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does it not sound more plausible, given that Mr. Kelly's client was the only one to benefit and we were coming into Covid, that he sought, asked and negotiated that RTÉ would underwrite the agreement? It is responsible for underwriting it and all the shenanigans we have seen since, but at the end of the day Mr. Kelly had asked it.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

No, it was pre-Covid.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have only a couple of seconds left so I will ask one final question of Mr. Kelly. When RTÉ published the salaries, in particular his client's salary, he knew that it was not correct, as such.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Yes.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He would have checked the published figures. Even for the sake of his own client, optically, why did he not raise the fact that he was being misrepresented? What did he do about that?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

We had asked before. We get ten or 15 minutes notice that the top salaries are being published and then they are out. This generally happens on a Friday. We put in the contract that we wanted at least 48 hours notification. If we had had notification of all of this, we would have been able to say "this is wrong". They were wrong.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

But Mr. Kelly did not call it out after it was published.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

We did. We put it in the contract negotiations that we wanted to be informed-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

But not publicly. It would have saved Mr. Kelly's client a lot of hassle, and having to explain. Mr. Kelly did not-----

Mr. Noel Kelly:

In the document on page 6, Deputy Munster will see:

Please note that these matters are private and confidential. Any PR [as in figures of fees going out] set to be released by RTE needs to be discussed in advance of any publication, this includes both salaries and pay cuts.

Of course we want to see them, but they are out before-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Kelly could have set the record straight, but he chose not to.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

That is exactly what we did there on page 6 of the document. That is exactly what we were doing.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, in this document, but I am talking about publicly. Mr. Kelly would have saved Mr. Tubridy a lot of questions and hassle had he called it out publicly at the time.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

But as the Deputy can see, the figures relating to under-declaration and overdeclaration were put out by RTÉ, not us. Also, they were stated-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It just seems to be – I am not denying that RTÉ is in the thick of it – that everything today is RTÉ's fault. This is a simple enough question that Mr. Kelly, as his client's agent, could have publicly rectified. It is not the biggest issue, but he could have publicly rectified it and he chose not to.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

We informed RTÉ and we also tried to put it in as part of the contract. RTÉ is the one that keeps on sending the figures out, not us.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Kelly did not correct them.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I call Deputy Fitzpatrick.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the witnesses. I hope we can get the truth. My first few questions will be for Mr. Tubridy. RTÉ engaged in deceptive practices: hiding payments, the misrepresentation of financial reporting and hiding information.

RTÉ was responsible, but Mr. Tubridy did not take action to resolve these errors. That is an act of deception. Does he agree?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

No, of course I do not agree with that assertion. We are here today to counter that and that is why members have a document full of answers to the questions that have been put to me in the Deputy's question.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Tubridy is saying he did not hide payments-----

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Yes.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----he did not misrepresent the financial reporting-----

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Yes.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----and he is hiding no information.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Correct.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Mr. Tubridy realise people look up to him and feel really let down by him? I do not know who all these people are who are rubbing his shoulders and shaking his hand, because if he came to County Louth, it would be the opposite. On 3 March, he shut down talk of his leaving "The Late Late Show". He had a cushy number and was well liked. Nobody would give him a wink. A week later, questions started to be asked and his retirement announcement came merely nine days later. He repeatedly stated at this morning’s committee meeting that his leaving "The Late Late Show" had nothing to do with this, as he put it, "fiasco". He stated that the timing was entirely a coincidence and that he first became aware of the Grant Thornton review in May. Is this true?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Deputy-----

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am only asking a question.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

And I am only answering. Let me tell you-----

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Just answer the question please.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Yes. The Deputy's dismissal of the good people of Ireland who have the courtesy and kindness to approach me in the street is not something I appreciate, on their behalf.

Second-----

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They have approached me too.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Second, I wish I had brought with me, in some ways, the countless cards and letters I have received from people around the country, speaking words of kindness and, indeed, wisdom. I would not like to dismiss their decency either.

Third, no.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If Mr. Tubridy had been made aware, would he have stayed in his position until the end of his term or would he have resigned?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

That is a hypothetical that is unbecoming, I think, of this committee-----

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a question.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

I get the sense the Deputy chooses not to believe my reason for leaving "The Late Late Show"-----

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am only asking the questions I am being asked by other people.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Please. I am only answering the Deputy's questions.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Tubridy is not answering them.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

I have answered the Deputy quite clearly with the word "No" and, equally, with my answer in response to him regarding "The Late Late Show". If he chooses not to believe me, that is a terrible pity because-----

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am only asking questions.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

-----he lives with a lack of truth in that case.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Given RTÉ was understating the level of money it was paying Mr. Tubridy, where is the balance of the money? In the public service, any recipient of overpayment, in this case Mr. Tubridy, is obliged to return that overpayment. Would Mr. Tubridy be willing to return that overpayment to the public funds? This is taxpayer's money - his audience.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

The Deputy needs to refer to the document-----

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am only asking. Will Mr. Tubridy please answer the question?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Yes. There have been no overpayments of any sort. There was an understatement of payments by RTÉ because of its unfortunate accountancy errors.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As I said, RTÉ was understating the level of money and Mr. Tubridy knew it was doing so. In the public service, any recipient of overpayments is obliged to return them. Would Mr. Tubridy be willing to return this overpayment to the public funds?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

The difficulty here is understatements.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did Mr. Tubridy have any other undisclosed commercial involvement with a third party?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

No.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did Mr. Tubridy really think people would not think he was trying to avoid a pay cut? People know about the Renault payment. Does he honestly think people do not know one and one is two?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

I think the nature of an independent contractor signing a deal with a different company is pretty complicated. To be honest, I am not a smart man when it comes to these things. That is why I pay a smart man to do that for me. The Deputy will have to forgive me for not having a great grasp of the detail here, but I never set out to cause any confusion to anyone at any time. I never underestimate the intelligence and decency of the Irish people.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is difficult for the Irish people to reconcile that the Renault deal was an entirely separate arrangement when it formed part of the 2020 contract negotiations. What gave rise to Dee Forbes issuing a wee side note of 9 December? Did Mr. Tubridy threaten to walk from his job? At the time, through his weekly radio shows and as presenter of the flagship programme "The Late Late Show", he brought in a significant proportion of the commercial revenue to RTÉ when it was under severe financial pressure. Did he leverage this fact and pressure the then director general to keep him happy?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

No.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It never came up.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

I did not negotiate with the director general. I gave back money to RTÉ, as it happens. Noel will fill in the Deputy on that if he wishes to hear about it.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Kelly is putting the sole blame on RTÉ regarding this fiasco. Why did he ask RTÉ, a public body, to guarantee payments due from Renault, a substantial private company, to have Mr. Tubridy's commercial obligations underwritten with taxpayers' money? Mr. Tubridy always said on "The Late Late Show" that we were all in it together, but this money was public money. Does Mr. Kelly think that is acceptable?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

First, the agreement with Renault is with RTÉ. In respect of public money we were paid by Renault, our understanding-----

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sorry, but the witnesses were paid by RTÉ.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

No, we were paid by Renault and then we were paid by Astus, and we understood Astus was involved with Renault. At all times we were acting under instruction from RTÉ. The relationship with Renault is with RTÉ, not with us.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

RTÉ rejects the claim that incorrect versions of events were presented to the Oireachtas last week regarding the RTÉ agreement to underwrite payments. In Mr. Kelly's pack, however, he provides email evidence to prove his point. An email is not a contract, as I am sure he knows.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Sure.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The position of either party could easily have changed in minutes or days. Can Mr. Kelly show us the actual contract?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

The contract-----

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Mr. Kelly have an actual contract?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Exactly what contract-----

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Kelly is saying he had agreement by email. I am asking whether he has an actual contract. It is "Yes" or "No".

Mr. Noel Kelly:

We are dealing with a €350 million operation at RTÉ, which is huge. At any time, I would assume it knew what it was doing. We have a contract. The email from the then CFO confirms that this was RTÉ's position and, again, there was no secret. Dee Forbes then verbally said it would honour the contract. We never thought RTÉ would ever pay this. All we wanted was that if the sponsor changed, we would be able to have an interaction with the sponsor because the relationship was between the sponsor and RTÉ. If the sponsor changed, therefore, we needed to be able to renegotiate and rework what it wanted to do. That was all.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In respect of the consultancy fee invoices, Mr. Kelly simply followed instructions.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Yes.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Kelly is a very successful negotiator and works for three members of the top talent at RTÉ. Why was this instruction not questioned? Neither of the witnesses are consultancies. If RTÉ told Mr. Kelly to invoice a company he had never heard of, why did he not question it? It makes no sense.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

I suppose it is obvious now, but at the time we were just acting under instruction. We had been working with RTÉ for 23 years. I never saw any reason RTÉ would do anything deceptive. Why would I? It is the national broadcaster. I listen and watch and pay my licence fee like everybody else. Honestly, why would I have doubted it?

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Mr. Kelly have a relationship with the new director general, Mr. Kevin Bakhurst, given he previously served as deputy director general?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

I have met him a couple of times, similar to how I have met Dee Forbes six or seven times. I do not have relationships with these people. We meet them with their lawyers and accountants in their board rooms. I have not had a cup of tea or lunch or dinner with them. These are people you meet in the main tower at RTÉ when you are negotiating contracts, but I do not know these people. They are not my friends. I do not know them.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The tripartite contract, which was provided last week on behalf of Ryan Tubridy, was signed on 21 April of this year. It is almost as though someone found out that the authors had discovered the unreported payments to Mr. Tubridy, and Mr. Tubridy and Ms Forbes were told and both decided to jump ship before the scandal became public.

When is a contract not a contract? This is the question I am being asked by the public. Two people seem to have jumped ship at the same time. Is that a coincidence as well? Everything seems to be a coincidence.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Sorry, who is jumping ship? Who has jumped ship?

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sorry. Last week people jumped ship.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

From RTÉ?

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. I feel that Mr. Tubridy and Dee Forbes seemed to jump ship at the same time. Is that a coincidence as well?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

I was not jumping ship.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Mr. Tubridy is still under contract.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He is not under contract. Mr. Tubridy''s contract is up. He has been paid. When is the contract up?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

In 2025.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

In 2025.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was Mr. Tubridy not told on the 31st that it was up and he is renegotiating his contract at the moment. Is that right?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

The contract is being renegotiated for radio-only services but the contract still stands. The contract is standing

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is the money Mr. Tubridy receiving at the moment just for the radio station?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

That is my understanding of it.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Mr. Tubridy not know what he is getting paid?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

It has been a long three weeks. The Deputy knows what I am getting paid. It is written in my contract. I am here today to tell the committee that. As Mr. Kelly will tell the Deputy, they suspended the negotiation. This is why we are in a bit of abeyance at the moment until I am told. As I said to the committee a minute ago, I could be out of a job on Friday or I could be back to work next Monday.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is there still a possibility that Mr. Tubridy could be getting paid for "The Late Late Show"?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

No. Not in the slightest.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay, so for the moment all that Mr. Tubridy is being paid is for the radio station work?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Yes. That is my understanding.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

TV services are finished. They finished at the last "The Late Late Show", which would have been in May.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy is past time.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am asking the questions for the people who put me in the job here. People are very disappointed with Mr. Tubridy. I will put my hand up and say fair play to the witnesses for coming in today. They did not have to come in here today but they did come in to answer questions. People just want to know the truth about what happened over this. Last week and the week before we seem to have been told lies. I am hoping the information we received today from both the witnesses is the truth. If it is the truth then we would all put our hands up. The public-----

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I must ask the Deputy to conclude.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is public money. People are really sad over this. Mr. Tubridy is the one who kept mentioning the cost of living. He was in the programmes-----

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We must move on Deputy.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

I have not changed how I felt. I love the Deputy's county very much, by the way.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Tubridy has said how he feels. There are millions of people in Ireland who feel worse

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Yes, I understand.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Mr. Tubridy and Mr. Kelly for volunteering to come in. It is important that is stressed because Mr. Tubridy's appearance in particular is forming a part of trying to rebuild confidence in the national broadcaster. For many people Mr. Tubridy personifies RTÉ. When Mr. Tubridy was finishing up on "The Late Late Show" there was a massive outpouring of appreciation for the job that he did over the past 14 years. He would have received hundreds or thousands of messages and correspondence. I was one of the people to drop him a note at the time to wish him well for the future. For the people looking in now their confidence has been rattled. Today's hearing is very important to establish the facts. This is what we are trying to do here. Nobody is out to get anyone. We want to establish the true facts for the people of this country.

To get a little bit further down the road, I want to know more about the type of relationship that Mr. Kelly has, and has had, with RTÉ executives over the past number of years. How would Mr. Kelly describe it? Would it be healthy?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

It would always be healthy and it would always be frank. It is RTÉ's job to get the best deal they can. It is my job to get the best deal that I can.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Would there be executives afraid of Mr Kelly?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

How would they be afraid of me - honestly - all five foot six of me? Over the last two weeks all sorts of pictures have been painted but I am here to work on behalf of my clients.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did Mr. Kelly ever threaten to sue RTÉ in the past?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Sue them? No.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Were there ever any discussions surrounding "Operation Transformation"?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

"Operation Transformation" was an independent production company. It was not RTÉ.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did Mr. Kelly pitch the idea to RTÉ first?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Yes.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

And did Mr. Kelly subsequently threaten them with legal action?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

No. We worked with Mr. Gerry Ryan, Lord rest him. The measure for radio show listenership figures, including for Gerry Ryan's show, is the JNLR. When they go down, people in radio say "Oh they are down and what can we do?" If the figures go down two or three times over a 12 month period the person's job is under threat, literally. The person is an independent contractor-----

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did Mr. Kelly not threaten to sue them?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

No. We had come up with the idea of "Operation Transformation" for Gerry and an independent production company tried to say it was ITS idea.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How did Mr. Kelly settle the issue with RTÉ? How did it finish?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

We settled with the production company.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

With the production company.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Yes. It is a wonderful programme and I wanted it to be out on RTÉ-----

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What was the figure?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

It was not very much.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Are we talking five figures or six figures?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

It is not relevant.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I believe it is. I want to establish what the feeling was around RTÉ when they were dealing with Mr. Kelly, and that these were the types of things that could happen.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

There was a confidentially agreement with it.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay. It is relevant though.

Mr. Kelly referred earlier to the tripartite deal saying it had nothing to do with Mr. Tubridy's new contract for television and radio services, and that Renault were paying it. That is a coincidence of timing, is that right?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Yes. Again, it was instigated by RTÉ.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Kelly might understand why people might find that hard to believe-----

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Sure but-----

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----but coincidences happen. On page 5 of the document pack supplied today it is clear that the €75,000 of guaranteed commercial income was baked in from the very start, was it not?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Again, from RTÉ.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

So Mr. Kelly is saying to me that they came up with this completely on their side only-----

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Yes.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----and that Mr. Kelly never solicited anything of the sort.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

No. Mr. Tubridy had been doing the show for quite a while and I am assuming that RTÉ wanted to do it. I can only assume that they wanted to keep the sponsor locked in for the next five years and that this could be a way they could actually do that.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Pre-2020 was Mr. Tubridy doing gigs for Renault at that stage?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

No.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Nothing ever before?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

No.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

So there was nothing as part of his contract for RTÉ or anything like that?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

No, I do not think so.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On the VAT rate Mr. Kelly received for the services, was this a 0% VAT rate or was it 23%? The 0% could be applicable to the UK whereas the 23% would be the rate if it was paid by RTÉ.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Whatever the applicable rate was, we were told what to put on it by RTÉ.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

So was it 0% or 23%?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

It was 0%.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When Ms Geraldine O'Leary was before us two weeks ago she told the committee:

In year two, I had no involvement. There was no payment. In year three, I was advised by the director general that there was pressure to pay. There were outstanding amounts. I did not understand at the time that they were underwritten by RTÉ. I was asked to liaise with Noel Kelly Management, NKM, to raise the invoices to the barter account-----

The RTÉ statement also refers to the Grant Thornton review that mentions communications from 13 to 29 March 2022 "between agent and RTÉ chasing payment on foot of the underwriting of the commercial agreement. (notwithstanding the ceasing of the ‘Tri-partite Agreement’ RTÉ had a contractual obligation to make two payments of €75,000 to agent (on behalf of Ryan Tubridy) for 2021 and 2022". Who is telling the truth here? Those versions of events are at odds with each other.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

I am sorry. I do not understand.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What we are being told here is that there were communications between Noel Kelly and RTÉ about chasing up the €150,000. Mr. Kelly must have obviously known it was coming from RTÉ at that stage.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

No. Exactly the opposite. We were-----

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Mr. Kelly not think that is funny, and why would he go to RTÉ when Renault were the people who were supposed to be paying?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

We were asked to send the invoices to RTÉ. Again, this was RTÉ.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did Mr. Kelly ever have any contact with anyone in Renault about the deal?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

No, apart from the actual activation itself around what the set-up would be like.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did anyone in Renault tell Mr. Kelly that they would no longer be paying the money?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

No.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Nobody at all from Renault informed Mr. Kelly of that?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

No.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Or Mr. Tubridy? No one. When are these six more Renault event gigs going to happen?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

When they are called upon.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They will be interesting events. I would say there will be a big turnout.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

If they are not called upon then I would see that money gets handed back.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will Mr. Kelly or Mr. Tubridy provide copies of correspondence in that period January to March 2022? This was correspondence they had on chasing up those invoices. It is referred to in section 2.17 of the Grant Thornton review. The correspondence referred to their records. Will the witnesses provide the committee with those details?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Page 25 refers to the email where they ask us to raise it and send it to them.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If RTÉ never knew or had not dealt with CMS previously, how did they know to instruct Mr. Kelly to send invoices though it at that stage?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

That is because my email is at CMS.

We are CMS and NK so they just asked us to raise it that way and we were acting under instruction.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it not strange, given everything else previously would have been through NK, and the next thing they went with CMS?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

I think there are a lot of things that seem strange now.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did Mr. Kelly ask them?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

At the time, no.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did he suggest it?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Did we suggest-----

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did he suggest that it would go through CMS?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

No.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To a lot of people looking in, this looks like another layer to try to cover up.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

I am sorry, Deputy, we came here today to tell everything we know and that is what I am trying to do.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am trying to ask you-----

Mr. Noel Kelly:

There is absolutely no deception on our part. Everything is factual. We have had our legal people working along with us and with RTÉ on all contracts so-----

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

So Mr. Kelly is saying that he did not suggest it would go through CMS at any stage.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Not at all.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You or nobody working with you or on your behalf?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

No.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You are confident of that.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

100%.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want to ask Mr. Tubridy in regard to the toy show live event. Was there one pitched by-----

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

No, it was never pitched as an idea. Sorry, was it pitched?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Sorry, it was.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

My apologies.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Regarding the toy show live, years ago, when the toy show was running, and the toy show is such an institution, there were some deals done with RTÉ commercial – I am not sure who the clothing manufacturer was, but it was sort of jumpers and pyjamas and stuff like that around the toy show. We said to them, as an idea, what you should do is take the actual physical set, and take it to somewhere like the RDS so people can see it and enjoy it because, obviously, on the night-----

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This was to help Mr. Tubridy as presenter.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

No, this had nothing to do with Ryan. This was to actually take the set and show the set off. If they were going to do something with the toy show, do not put it on jumpers and pyjamas but actually take it out there and let people see it and what it was. That is all.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When did you learn that Jane Murphy and Katherine Drohan were planning Toy Show The Musical?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Probably at the early stages, they would have told me that they were planning this.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did Mr. Tubridy have a dispute with them about this because of the toy show live event?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

No, toy show live never came to anything. This is the whole point. The musical was a totally separate entity. They came up with a very ambitious thing to do and given the nature of my job, there was no way I was going to be in a position to get involved, so I wished them well.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Tubridy did not have any dispute with them about it. Was there friction?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

No, I would have thought that this was a big, ambitious project and another way to maybe-----

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I listen to RTÉ radio. I do not recall a massive promotion on Mr. Tubridy's part of Toy Show The Musical.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

That is because the ads did the talking. There were plenty of them.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Tubridy did not have any guests on, talking about it on the show at any stage.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

There were multiple mentions, if I am not mistaken, on "The Late Late Show".

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

And on the radio show?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

I cannot recall but it was not done out of any badness.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was Mr. Tubridy asked at any point to promote it and did he refuse?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

No, I do not think I would be that-----

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Reluctant. I can understand why Mr. Tubridy might be reluctant to get involved with the brand because it would look like it was-----

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

No, at any time I was asked about the musical, I always wished them well. I had no ill will towards it.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want to ask Mr. Kelly about “The Late Late Show”. It has hundreds of thousands of viewers and can be a very lucrative slot if you get an appearance there for someone who is launching a book, a film or whatever. What is Mr. Kelly's role in terms of influencing guest appearances on “The Late Late Show”?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

None.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

None whatsoever.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

None. That is all editorial.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Mr. Kelly have influence on that? Has he ever in the past asked to get someone on “The Late Late Show”?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

No. Apart from Ryan.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Apart from Ryan, has there been anyone else, any of Mr. Kelly's clients? Has he ever-----

Mr. Noel Kelly:

No, it is editorial.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can Mr. Kelly see how he would be conflicted with one of his clients being the presenter and there are other clients he represents, some of whom have appeared on “The Late Late Show”?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

It is guests. Everything else is purely RTÉ editorial. I would have nothing to do with that.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How would Mr. Kelly see his role in the future in a changing culture in RTÉ? Would he see his position being under threat in terms of where he would slot in there?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

We work with Netflix, we work with streamers, we work with all of the new media out there. We have people working in the UK and people working in the United States. What I love doing is nurturing young talent, finding young talent and getting them book deals or maybe getting them a TV show. That is what I love doing, so that is where I would see myself. That is always where I have seen myself.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We had two lengthy hearings last week at the media committee and the Committee of Public Accounts has also held hearings. There is a long summer ahead. It would be helpful, with regard to any other mistruths that Mr. Kelly alleges the RTÉ executives or board members may have conveyed to the committees in the last number of weeks, if he would bring those to our attention. It would be important to the committee that that would happen.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

In relation to mistruths, I am not here in relation to what other people felt, see or saw. We are just here in relation to what we knew, what was contracted and what we had agreed. All I can talk about is all that I know, not what other people said or do or think. Certainly, after the last few weeks, if I was asked-----

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is there anything else you are aware of-----

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Griffin will have to conclude so he should ask his last question.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is nothing else that was said last week that Mr. Kelly was aware was untrue that he has not told us about today.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

No, not that I am aware of.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

If I may say so, thank you for the letter you sent, albeit after the event, and I hope that I can regain the trust of your family and the people around your constituency because that is my job.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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It is a key part of the remit of RTÉ that the personalities would be-----

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

I know that. I just want to say thank you.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy will conclude because I have to move on to give everyone an opportunity.

Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----because the licence fee and the income base are seriously in jeopardy.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

This I understand.

Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the witnesses. What did Mr. Kelly think when RTÉ asked for an invoice to be made out for consultancy fees?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

When they asked for that, again, it was under instruction from RTÉ. It is RTÉ. It is this institution. It is 100 years old. Why would you question it? It is easy to say now but at the time, why would you? It was their instruction. We are just a little company.

Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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RTÉ is a company with a terrible employment record in many respects. It has been investigated by the Department of Social Protection, with 500 workers potentially classed as self-employed when they should be employees. Some 60% of investigations have led to self-employed people being reclassified as employees. It is an organisation with a tarnished employment record in many respects, but still, you would not for a moment have any doubt about RTÉ and how it might behave around staff.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

I am 60. I have been brought up with RTÉ, listening to RTÉ radio and watching RTÉ. Mr. Tubridy did a good bit of work with the BBC. We went to BBC and I was expecting to be blown away by “Oh my God, this company is incredible”, but it was not that. RTÉ is a fantastic organisation with great people, great producers, directors, floor managers and people on reception. It is an amazing organisation with fabulous people. I want RTÉ to win. There is also a fantastic commercial sector here in Ireland, with Newstalk, Today FM and midlands radio, and they survive purely on commercial revenue.

Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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I will ask about the sector as a whole. Mr. Kelly represents a number of high-profile RTÉ personalities but he also represents personalities in rival media organisations.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Yes.

Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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He knows what a lot of people are earning in the media sector so he can go to RTÉ and say one of his clients wants a pay rise. RTÉ might say “No” and he might go to a commercial radio station or TV station. Mr. Kelly has a wealth of knowledge and a significant amount of power to go down to that commercial TV station or radio station, knowing full well what presenters are earning, because some of them are his clients as well. Is it good for the media sector in Ireland to have someone with such a dominant role in setting remuneration across the sector?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

To that end, there are more people being paid more money in the commercial sector than in RTÉ - higher salaries - purely because everything is based on commercial, on JLNR, on the right figures, so if you are hitting the right figures, then they are getting the right advertising. RTÉ is a hybrid. RTÉ has-----

Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. Kelly have a monopoly as an agent?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Not at all. A monopoly is not commercial. Commercial is fantastic. People are paid more in commercial because they know what the true value is.

Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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What happens if two of Mr. Kelly’s clients are going for the same job?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

The best one gets it.

Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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Surely you have to back-----

Mr. Noel Kelly:

No.

Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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For want of a better word, and I do not want to describe anyone, Mr. Kelly has to back someone.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

No. If you think about it, when Pat Kenny gave up “The Late Late Show”, Gerry Ryan went for it and Ryan Tubridy went for it. I do not give the jobs so my assumption is that they wanted a younger demographic and they needed somebody to bring in a younger audience. At the end of the day, it is the executive and the board that decide who gets the job. It is like any job. A number of people can interview but they decide in the end who actually gets the job. From that end, at the time, was Mr. Tubridy only 35 when he got “The Late Late Show”?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Yes, I think so. About 35 or 36.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

It was all about a younger demographic. RTÉ wanted to try to bring younger people to RTÉ One, which would traditionally have had an older audience demographic.

Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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If Mr. Tubridy does not mind my asking, why is he an independent contractor?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

That was the advice I was given. The Senator has got to understand my skill set does not belong in the world of finance and negotiation. That is why Mr. Kelly is there. Did the advice about becoming an independent contractor come from RTÉ?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Yes. Originally the independent contractor status came from RTÉ when Gay Byrne was there and subsequently it was set up as a vehicle because of the commercial revenue they brought in. Again, on the commercial revenue versus the licence fee, the licence fee is 55% and commercial revenue, 45%. In 2001, licence fee revenue was €190 million and commercial revenue was €148 million, so there is only a 5% difference in it. As a result, that muddies the market for all the other local radio stations, national radio stations and TV stations.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

As Mr. Kelly said, it is a hybrid.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

It is a hybrid.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

That makes it complicated.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

It is petrol and electricity. It is very complicated.

Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Tubridy says under the terms of his contract he is allowed do additional work outside RTÉ.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Yes.

Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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Is that the reason he is satisfied to be an independent contractor? It allows him to do additional work.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

You could say that. It helps if I want to write a book about John F. Kennedy or a multicoloured sheep, both of which I have written about for different reasons. I can do that as an independent contractor.

Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Tubridy says there is nothing morally, ethically or legally wrong with that. Is it fair for me to say that in any additional work he does the benefit comes from his connection with RTÉ?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

I would like to think that it is broad, that the appeal is not just - I say the appeal-----

Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Tubridy has been there since the age of 12.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

I have, but if HarperCollins asks me to write a history book, does it matter that I work in RTÉ? I do not know. That is for that company to answer. I do not want to overstate my value to somewhere.

Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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In his opening statement and a number of times at the Committee of Public Accounts, Mr. Tubridy said he took a pay cut. To most people out there, a pay cut is when a person works the same hours with the same conditions for less pay.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Yes.

Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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That is not the case here. In the contract negotiations, Mr. Kelly's email states a "reduced fee has to reflect a reduced level of services". In simple terms, that means a person would get paid less but there would be less work. Can Mr. Kelly reasonably call that a pay cut?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

On reductions, Mr. Tubridy took a 40% pay cut from 2012. "The Late Late Show" is supposed to be 9.30 p.m. to 11.30 p.m. Mr. Tubridy did 38 two-hour shows. I believe the new late late is 30 shows of an hour and a half. Mr. Tubridy did 38 shows of two to two and a half hours. Every 15 or 20 minutes is an extra ad slot, which means more ads. In the new world, if it finishes at 11 p.m., it is a different value to the commercial organisation as such. Over the period of those six years, there was a 40% pay cut, the contract went from €545,000 to €440,000 and over those six years, the commercial revenue to RTÉ between "The Late Late Show" advertising and sponsorship, texting 12345 for the viewers' prize and the radio show was €100 million.

It is a very demanding schedule. You have 38 weeks and you cannot take any time. There is radio and then the show, with a little time off during the summer. I know it is a lot of money and it is not about the amount. Mr. Tubridy said after Covid he left himself on the floor. He was turning 50 and it was time to do other stuff. As an independent contractor, he will be paid less than half to do radio, but he can do a famine documentary and he can write another book. He just wants to change his life. It is time for him to change. It is also time, as it was after Gay Byrne and Pat Kenny, for somebody else to do it.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Yes, that is true.

Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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My own time is almost up.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

I am sorry. I was about to elucidate on the joys of leaving "The Late Late Show", but I will not do that now, obviously.

Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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On the issue of "The Late Late Show", throughout the documentation the witnesses sent us, the terms "The Late Late Toy Show Live" and "The Late Late Toy Show" appear interchangeably, but at no point was the musical being talked about.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

No.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

No. We never had any talks about the musical at all. It was never something that-----

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

And the live thing came to nothing.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

No, and again that was an RTÉ initiative.

Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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Is there a separate commercial agreement relating to the toy show?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

No, that is part of my contract.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

It is part of the contract.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

May I suggest something to the Senator in the last four seconds he has of his time? Maybe this is to the committee and all its members. In the event I keep my job - and it is touch and go from my understanding of it at the moment - I am happy to suggest that in the future we would have a situation where my contract is published on an annual basis with a few obvious redactions for personnel or what have you, with the money, the salary and the earnings would be there, straight up. If RTÉ is going through a cathartic week, let this be part of it. I will offer that. I have nothing to hide. Put the contract out, put it online, tell everyone how much I earn. Do not wait for three years and then have this codology that can happen all this time later, despite us saying it at the time. I hope that is of use to the committee. I am happy to offer that today.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Senator Warfield is finished. I am mindful we are at the halfway mark of the meeting but not the halfway mark of contributions. Senator Malcolm Byrne is next. Are Mr. Tubridy and Mr. Kelly able to go on for one more contributor or do they want a break now?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

I am delighted to talk to the Senator.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Is that okay with everyone in the room? It is. When Senator Byrne is finished, we will recess for ten minutes and come back again.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

I appreciate that. Thank you.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chair and the witnesses. It is fair to say Mr. Tubridy and I know each other a long time. We were in UCD together and we were friendly at the time. I know how committed he is to radio. Even back then he was deeply committed to broadcasting. There is a passion there and everybody recognises his talents. This is obviously having a big personal impact on him.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Yes, it is.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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However, it is important for us and for him that we get the full picture here. As colleagues have said, this is not about a witch-hunt but about getting a full picture.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

I understand that.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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What is emerging is a culture that exists in RTÉ that is going to have to change.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Yes.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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My first question to Mr. Tubridy is simple. Does he believe that in all of this, he has done anything wrong?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

The only way I can answer that that is reasonable and fair is to say I should have called out the figures when they were released all in one day on 20 January 2021. They were wrong. We had requested RTÉ change them before in dispatches, but that day we did not so, yes, I am not without blame in that regard.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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After RTÉ released its initial statement, both Mr. Tubridy and Mr. Kelly released a first statement on the Thursday and that was followed by a second statement on the Friday, which was quite different and acknowledged the problem.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Yes. I can explain that if the Senator wishes. We were given approximately 30 minutes' warning from RTÉ that this bomb was about to be let off. We looked at it and said RTÉ could not proceed because it would be putting out all this information, so much of which we could counter and clarify for it. We said the Grant Thornton report is saying Ryan Tubridy did nothing wrong and all of this and we said RTÉ had to include that. They said "No" and "We are releasing the statement". We asked what was the rush. Our first statement, which the Senator referred to, went out saying we cannot not shed any light on it because we could not. Then that night was an all-nighter, as we looked through everything. I said I wanted to apologise to people because I should have called that out there as soon as I had the chance to, and I did. Then there was the media maul. The media are brilliant. They are my colleagues and some of them are my friends, so I am not having a go because they are doing their job and I get that. I am just saying there was a mauling of sorts for three weeks.

That is why we get to today where we have put this together with a view to be transparent.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Let me come back to the question. Why does Mr. Tubridy think his salary was understated? Most people know what their salaries are, you know what your salary is. Why do you think those figures were understated?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Again, it was a mistake on RTÉ's part. We had written to them and said "this is wrong".

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Not only that, but also there was an assumption. We had said before----

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Whose----

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Just to finish, I will be very brief, there was this assumption that here is an organisation that has a CFO, internal auditors etc. but not only that, the figures had been externally audited and so on. There was an assumption, naive as it may be, that they had no reason to do that.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Who do our guests think is responsible, therefore, for the incorrect figures being issued?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Without question, RTÉ.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Who in RTÉ?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Noel will tell the Senator that----

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Who in RTÉ does Mr. Kelly believe is responsible for misstating his client's salary figures?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

We had done the contract and, again, always in the main----

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Who did Mr. Kelly complain to? He said he complained.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

The letter to explain to them that you were uncomfortable with the way they were showing the numbers----

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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These figures are discussed widely.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

The documents are here.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

It is page 14 in the document----

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

That should clarify that for you.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

----essentially making changes to the side letter. Then on the side letter, we asked them to take out all of this. They were trying to offset a payment that Ryan did not take or invoice. This is the €120,000. Ryan never took it and never invoiced for it and they said they were going to offset it. It is an accountancy thing. What I thought was if it is not there, how can it be there? They were trying to - that €120,000 then was offset against 2017, 2018 and 2019 by RTÉ. We wrote to them.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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And you never received that €120,000.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

No.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Am I correct? The declared figures that were published at the time were for 2017, €491,667; for 2018, €495,000; and for 2019, €495,000.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Sure.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Those are the correct total figures that were paid by RTÉ to Tuttle.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

No. That should have been €495,000----

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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So that is €511,000; €545,000----

Mr. Noel Kelly:

€495,000; €545,000; €545,000. What happened was that they put a figure that we have an invoice taken or given against those figures. It was an underpayment.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that but I am looking at it the way a normal person looks at their annual salary.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

So am I.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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This is a challenge. There is a question that is here that people are looking and they are saying, hang on, we talked about it. Everyone talks about the salaries when they are published. Even just to take one year, in 2019, it was declared all over the media and declared before the Oireachtas here, €495,000. Yet Mr. Kelly knew, Tuttle was the company that was paid €545,000, correct?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Yes.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Okay, so you knew. I am just conscious of time. Mr. Tubridy mentioned that----

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Can I just say, on that final page there, on page 17, they accepted that it was wrong.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I know, but for us and for the wider public, we did not know and this is the problem.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

I know, sure.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Tubridy has said that if the Renault gigs do not happen he is going to pay the money back.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

Yes.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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To whom is he going to pay it back?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

To Renault or whoever paid it.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

Astus paid it. Renault paid it first and then Astus paid the last two.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Does the cheque or the bank transfer go to pay Astus Limited., Renault or RTÉ?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

It is a good question. If it is Astus----

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Who does Mr. Tubridy think he is paying it to?

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

I think the answer is Astus which, to me, as a result of the discoveries in the last week or two, is RTÉ.

Mr. Noel Kelly:

We know now it is RTÉ.

Mr. Ryan Tubridy:

So it goes back to RTÉ then, through this bizarre route.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I want to come to Mr. Kelly. He is a very experienced negotiator and we know this in terms of those he represents. I asked the questions when the executive were in here about who was in the room with you. Mr. Kelly kindly outlined to some our colleagues earlier today who he had been dealing with. One of the key people who very clearly knew about some of the deals was Jim Jennings. Is it fair to say that Jim Jennings would have been the individual who pulled the deal together with RTÉ, or rather with Renault?

Mr. Noel Kelly:

No, the commercial would have been done initially with the lawyers, when we were informed that they wanted to do it, and then it is handed over to commercial.

Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that the lawyers would have done it but lawyers do not go out and cut the deal. Lawyers are the ones who will sign off the deal.