Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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The item for consideration this afternoon is challenges facing women accessing education, leadership and political roles. We are joined by Ms Rachel Coyle, head of campaigns and mobilisation, and Ms Ciara McHugh, leadership officer, National Women's Council of Ireland, NWCI; and Ms Miriam Holt, chief executive officer, and Ms Vivienne Glanville, national programme co-ordinator, from Women's Collective Ireland. They are all welcome and I thank them for coming along to the meeting.

I will go through some housekeeping matters. I remind anyone joining us on Teams that the chat function is only to make us aware of urgent matters or technical issues and not to make general comments or statements. I remind members of the constitutional requirement to be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. I ask any members joining us on Teams to confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House complex before making their contribution.

In advance of inviting the witnesses to deliver their opening statement, I advise them of the following in relation to parliamentary privilege. Witnesses participating from the committee room are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

We have a five-minute opening slot for each group and then we will call on members for their questions. We are starting with Ms Coyle.

Ms Rachel Coyle:

A chairde, thank you very much for the invitation to this discussion. The NWCI is the leading national representative organisation for women and women’s groups across this island. This year we are celebrating 50 years since our foundation in 1973.

The ambition of the council is an Ireland where every woman enjoys true equality, and no woman is left behind. This ambition cannot be fully realised until there is equal representation of women in public and political life. Today we will address some of the structural challenges and barriers that prevent women from achieving true equality. None of these exist in isolation but challenge women concurrently when accessing opportunities for education, leadership and political roles. We remind the committee that, in taking the following challenges into consideration, women’s experiences are wholly diverse. Additional factors such as membership of the Traveller community or other ethnic minority communities, being an LGBTQ+ woman, being a migrant woman or a disabled woman, what your income or educational status is or where you live in Ireland, like in rural Ireland all intersect with gender as these women face additional barriers to achieving full and equal participation.

We warmly welcome the announcement earlier this year of a referendum on care, equality and the family. The referendum is necessary to open a national conversation on the value of care and how essential it is to the functioning of our society. At its most basic, it aims to remove the outdated and sexist language of Article 41.2 of the Constitution. It is a provision which, as noted by the Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women, CEDAW, “perpetuates traditional stereotypical views of the social roles and responsibilities of women... in the family and in society at large”. Despite huge changes in women’s participation in paid work over previous decades, this culture has allowed women to continue to bear the greater responsibility for unpaid care. This implied discrimination is a major challenge to women accessing education, leadership and political roles. The stereotyping of women has led to a culture where women’s ambitions are hampered by the perception that they are stepping beyond the appropriate scope of their assigned role. Research indicates that 45% of women and 29% of men provide care for others on a daily basis. Women with children carry out an average of 43 hours of care per week and men only 25. Even when the hours spent on paid employment are taken into consideration, women still carry out more hours of care than men per week. Of those whose main activity is looking after home and family, nearly all - 94.3% - are women.

Caring responsibilities continue to be a key barrier for people considering entering and remaining in politics. This does not simply affect women but councillors we have engaged with tell us they feel they have a triple shift: they do their paid work, the caring for children or other family members and then their political office work. Women continue to be forced to choose between their career in public office and their family commitments. With the lack of affordable childcare across the State, the same choices face women in employment and education.

This particularly affects women from already disadvantaged groups, like Traveller women, migrant women and lone parents, who might not have the access to family support networks. The lack of gender parity and diversity can mean crucial decisions which affect our lives are being made without us. We need to see family-friendly practices encouraged in our political and educational institutions. We need to do more to ensure our educational and political institutions are attractive to women and those with additional needs. We ask members of the committee to take into consideration our toolkit for local authorities on supporting family-friendly local government. This toolkit, while aimed at local authorities, is just as relevant to this institution because it outlines methods for embedding more family-friendly practices.

Income disparity and poverty, exacerbated by the soaring cost of living, are a barrier to women’s participation in education and public life. Almost half of women earn less than €20,000 per year. Some 86% of lone parents are women and lone parents are three times more likely to be pushed into consistent poverty than the general population. One in four lone parents reports being in arrears on utility bills. People with disabilities and those unable to work due to long-standing health problems continue to be at a much higher risk of poverty. Among Traveller and Roma, 31% live in households affected by severe material deprivation.

Heading to college or running for election seem pretty unrealistic when your primary concern is keeping food on the table and gas in the meter. The provision of quality public services, particularly childcare, is essential for reducing poverty and improving access to education, political participation and decent work. Political parties are best placed to create pathways for women into elected politics and need to commit to supporting women. This does not just mean building individual women’s capacity, which they should do, but also reviewing and often overhauling internal party processes and cultures.

Abuse, particularly online, of women in politics and public life is widespread and unrelenting. Research undertaken in 2020-21 revealed female councillors received eight times as many abusive tweets per follower as their male colleagues.

A study we commissioned on women’s experiences of the 2019 local elections reported high levels of sexist abuse and stalking and for ethnic minority candidates, racist and sexist abuse. Another study of ours found that 35% of women councillors have experienced sexual harassment or sexual misconduct in their political role. This abuse is a barrier. Not only does it impact women by preventing them from accessing and carrying out their leadership roles but it has a chilling effect because it deters those women who might consider running for election in the future.

To ensure equal participation of women at all levels of our democracy, gender quotas must be extended to local and European elections. As many of the committee members present will be familiar with, local government is a key pipeline for national office. Men are shy of 50% of our current population but hold 74% of local government seats. This gender balance has significant implications for candidate selection processes for general elections as a result. Without targeted action, the pace of change is unacceptably slow. While measures to erode the structural barriers that prevent women from entering public office and to support women as candidates are vital, these must be happening in parallel with quotas.

We are encouraged by the steps taken by this committee to open a discussion regarding these challenges and look forward to working with it to find solutions.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms Coyle. The first councillor has now gone on maternity leave, officially, since the new legislation came in. Councillor Adrienne Wallace from Carlow went on leave only yesterday.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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It is timely-----

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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There are 18 councillors in Carlow and two of them are women. There are 16 men and the person replacing her is a male colleague. Now the cathaoirleach, who is the first woman cathaoirleach in approximately 20 years, has 17 men on the council and she will be the only woman until Ms Wallace returns.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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It is timely that we are having this discussion. There is some very interesting information in the presentation. I call Ms Holt.

Ms Miriam Holt:

We thank the Chair and members for the invitation to join them today to discuss the challenges facing women accessing education, leadership and political roles. Women’s Collective Ireland, WCI, is a national women’s community development organisation advancing marginalised women’s equality through community education. We represent and work directly with women experiencing disadvantage through our 17 grassroots women’s community projects based in urban and rural communities throughout Ireland. Our input on this topic will be in the context of the grassroots women we work with.

WCI utilises women’s community education as a vital tool in tackling educational disadvantage for women as it provides a model of education, from first steps to third level, which encompasses the needs of women. It starts with the lived experience of the participants and validates those experiences and their knowledge. We recognise that adequate supports must be contained within community education programmes to ensure access for the most marginalised of women. We also recognise the need for a greater focus on integrating diverse women on the basis of areas of commonality rather than nationality or legal status. Integration should also include other minority communities.

In our experience, barriers to access include lack of adequate funding and lack of recognition in policy and decision-making arenas; lack of recognition that engagement is a longer process for marginalised women; and the need for targeted supports, including free childcare, mentoring, educational and IT equipment and specific needs-based supports. Childcare and social care responsibilities are a real and consistent barrier to women’s participation. WCI urges that sustainable budgets for education programmes include the payment of social care allowances and out-of-pocket expenses to participants undertaking community education. Flexibility in funding the delivery of community education courses is essential. WCI sees insufficient access points for entry pathways and progression routes are weak. Starting points can become staying points. Non-traditional students do not easily merge into the traditional pathways of education. Ireland still has low literacy levels and the digital divide is causing barriers. The costs and speed of technology is changing, leaving many behind.

With regard to women accessing leadership roles, WCI would like to emphasise that grassroots women are very active and visible at local level and contribute to civil society but they are not getting beyond representation on local school boards and community group volunteering roles. This is becoming a stagnant route for them. There are no next steps outside of local level activism. The six Cs - cash, childcare, confidence, culture, candidate selection procedures and cyber - are well documented as barriers for women. The women we work with have highlighted fear and impostor syndrome when considering leadership roles, saying there are not many people with their accent there or that they cannot do public speaking.

Supporting women’s access includes measures such as gender mainstreaming; ensuring political parties run women candidates in a meaningful, serious and supportive way and do not engage in tokenism; and ensuring the task force on keeping women in politics safe has input from civil society actors and organisations. The task force should not only consider women currently occupying elected roles but be expanded to include women in activism and those not yet in political spaces. We also recommend funding for organisations working with women on the ground in the area of leadership and representation. Many of our projects have been engaging in work to promote women’s leadership and representation through voter participation programmes and through our planned delivery of a women's leadership programme in 17 projects to more than 200 grassroots women across the country from participation to politics. WCI collaborates with other organisations to work towards our collective goals in this area. Currently, women around the country are feeding into and updating our WCI manifesto by naming the issues that affect grassroots women.

Community and feminist education enhances critical consciousness and awareness of power relations and increases social and political knowledge. We ask that these programmes be funded. We share a collective vision for an island with a well-educated society, not just those who can easily afford it. We recognise the need for policy to be developed to progress education for grassroots women in all their diversity. WCI is calling on the Government to implement sustainable funding, ensuring continuity of high-quality, outcome-focused community education with women that will allow for unique and flexible education and training programmes. The topics discussed today are not challenges for women; they are challenges for the State and society. We thank the committee for the opportunity to discuss these challenges.

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I thank the witnesses for their presentations. A few questions came to mind when I was listening to them. What I would love to tease out more, homing in on WCI, is the point about "ensuring political parties run women candidates in a meaningful, serious and supportive way". This is the biggest bugbear of mine. Women are the additional candidate and never the main candidate in many constituencies. For parties to meet quotas, they just add women. That is what I see as tokenism. They do that rather than, may I say in a bold way, removing men from candidate selection. These are men who have held seats for a long time or who are seen as most likely to get seats because they are well known or whatever. What does something that is not tokenism look like in terms of actually taking quotas and making them meaningful?

My other question also relates to WCI's point on sustainable budgets for education programmes, including payment of social care allowances. Could Ms Holt explain a little more what that would mean?

In the past I have spoken about how we should pay people a universal basic income to go to college or education, especially young mothers and other more vulnerable groups with regard to social class. We should make it meaningful and get rid of the idea, which is probably somewhat elitist, that education for education's sake is great. That is a luxury. What would meaningful engagement with education look like with proper financial supports that would replace the need for working while a person is on the journey through education?

My next point is on NGOs looking inwards at how diverse their own boards and structures are at the most successful levels. Do the National Women's Council, Women for Election and other organisations or NGOs that focus on the advancement of a more vulnerable group fail in their own endeavours to replicate this within their own structures? How do we address this so that if we have organisations fighting and advocating for the rights of the working class, their most senior jobs and roles are accessible to these women? We have not yet done this. How can we fight for this if we are protecting our own roles in our own advancement? Equality will only be reached if people advocate for themselves and are running the organisations themselves at that level. What are the thoughts of the witnesses on this?

Ms Rachel Coyle:

Perhaps some of the points relate more to what the other witnesses are speaking about. I completely agree with Senator Ruane that we cannot be what we cannot see. The National Women's Council meaningfully tries to reach out to disadvantaged groups and get them to engage with us. The truth is they do not owe us anything. We want to be representative. We have groups across the spectrum. We see the underfunding of the community and voluntary sector and the women's sector more generally. This is a pathway for building capacity. The funding cut during austerity has never been restored. Then we have the additional energy cost rises and inflation. I do not have to go into that here. What does it really say to people from these communities when the State will not even fund the centres or organisations that are there to represent them? I ask the committee to definitely take this on board. It depends on what we mean when we say "education". There are all types of education. There is formal and informal education. There are different types of intelligence. We try to reflect this in the diversity of our staff and our board. We are always working towards it. Next year we will develop a new strategic plan. Core to this will be ensuring we maintain this diversity.

I completely agree with the points Senator Ruane made on making quotas meaningful. Interestingly, the Department set aside funding for political parties to pick up and develop measures in their party structures to find and identify women candidates. They deliberately made it flexible enough to see what works for the various political parties. We are working with the Department to monitor this a little to see whether it leads to anything in the upcoming local elections in particular.

Ms Miriam Holt:

I agree with Senator Ruane. With regard to women's political representation, we are trying to get people to vote. We have voter participation programmes. We want people to know the power of their vote. They tell us that it is not a space for them because there is no one like them there. They say no one speaks with their accent. We bring in local politicians before elections. We facilitate the women beforehand to identify their issues. Politicians do not get an easy time when they come in. The women we work with angry that there are not women like them there. The work we do involves using community education approaches to make them see it is their space as well.

We absolutely agree with payment for participating in education. We see women terrified to go on courses in case they lose some of their payment. This is a real barrier. We have to engage with social welfare and provide letters to say they are attending. Ms Glanville can speak a lot more about it because she was a local co-ordinator in Ronanstown. She saw it at first hand.

We are very determined that the women we work with look at us and see that if we can do it they can do it. We all come from or live the communities we work in. We want women to be comfortable coming in the door. We want them to feel like they are walking into someone's house and that it is not scary but a safe space to be in. Our board of management are all from the local communities. We have advisory groups in each of the 17 projects and the women on our board of directors are from those communities also.

Ms Vivienne Glanville:

We work from first steps to third level. When going to education, whether personal development or a health and well-being programme, people are out of pocket. We are surrounded by an environment that has cost-a-lot coffee and all of these things. Nobody gets pocket money to go to a class. Children who are sent by their parents to a programme have pocket money. We believe that people are out of pocket for these small things. In our programmes the kettle is there and it is free. The morning break is free. We then have to push to make sure our programmes are free. They are but the work that goes on behind the scenes is about trying to access programme funding to make sure everything is accessible.

We provide childcare in many of our 17 projects. In Clondalkin for instance we had to shut down a baby room because children aged under two need to be able to sleep. We were minding them for three hours so a woman could attend a course. We cannot mind children aged under two years. We can mind children aged between two and five years. Women with children aged up two years would need out-of-pocket expenses to help get childcare. There are all of these extra bits. Sometimes it is about sustenance. It is about a sandwich and a cup of tea to keep going.

As Ms Holt said, if we can see it we can be it. Many of us have come through community employment schemes and worked our way up. The community sector is an area where many activists have found positions. There are not as many new jobs coming on board now because funding has become stagnant. We want to hear the women who come through our doors telling us that they would not mind our jobs. We want to be able to move over and let someone else in. This has always been our goal. Many of the women who come through volunteer and give back their time. There is always giving back.

With regard to tokenism, we need to bring anybody who is interested into the room to ask them.

Many would say they would not mind a buddy system whereby they could contact another woman in politics and ask: "How did you negotiate this?" Many of us need that in all areas of life.

Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I thank Ms Glanville.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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We talk a lot in here about trying to make the place more family-friendly, but I do not think we ever really dig into that; how everyone's family is a little bit different and the intersectionality that undermines and underlines that to a certain degree as well. I am not sure some of the solutions we talk about either are necessarily very family-friendly.

One thing that came to mind while we were talking is that we have a public representation allowance, PRA, and expenses that are designed to ensure that anyone can do the job of politics and that it should not just be for those who have their own private resources. If I need a new phone, I can access funds from the Oireachtas to pay for my new phone, but there is not a similar fund for childcare. I am not saying a phone is not important, but from what the witnesses say, childcare is even more important and more fundamental in terms of access. We need to look at something simple like a new fund or even allowing the PRA and the allowances for councillors to be spent on childcare. That would go a long way. I am just thinking out loud here. However, if all we do is allow it, while somebody is spending the allowance on childcare, somebody else is spending it on leaflets so we are maintaining the disadvantage. Therefore, I think it does need to be a separate fund. That is something we should clearly be calling for.

I am conscious however that this only really helps people who are in here already or in a position to get in here. One of the big messages coming from the witnesses is that this is a very long way off for many people and that there are much deeper structural barriers before we even get there. That is where we do need to start.

I agree with what Senator Ruane says about tokenism. I have seen various parties address this in very different ways. I am not necessarily going to name any individual party, but I have seen some parties put huge efforts into trying to get more diverse candidates in terms of race or ethnic background and going to people again and again to get them to run. I have seen other parties do nothing. I have seen individuals within a party make huge efforts where the wider party is not doing anything. We, as politicians, need to go back to our own parties and interrogate what they are doing. That is for those of us who are unfortunate enough to be in parties. We must interrogate what they are doing and own some responsibility in that regard as well. What I am interested in is digging into what the individual parties can do as well. I am not sure I have many questions but I see that the issue of childcare is often spun as simply a labour activation intervention, but it is so much more fundamental to society and to participation in society. That needs to be underlined and discussed. I heartily endorse the idea of universal basic income for education or universal basic income in general.

Ms Rachel Coyle:

It is not just childcare either; a lot of representatives care for older parents and others, and that is a deterrent to a lot of people when it comes to who is going to take up the opportunities. At least there are facilities for children. Carers have to fight for respite. In general, I take Deputy Costello's point.

Mention was made of a universal basic income. I am a trade unionist at heart, so I believe that collective bargaining is the best way to ensure workers are adequately compensated for their time. In general, how we talk about social welfare payments really needs to change. For example, people who carry out the caring function save the State an amount of money. It should be seen as a social participation. We need to change the narrative a little bit more about social welfare. We definitely need a wider conversation about public services in general; childcare being one of them. We advocate for a fully public model of childcare as the only way to ensure affordability and decent pay and conditions for workers. Generally, in terms of the role of the State in providing these things, we believe that leaving it to the market is unsustainable.

To drill into the family-friendly practices, at this point after the pandemic we are all familiar with the use of technology. I see the Oireachtas makes use of hybrid meetings. Perhaps we could have a conversation about meeting times and the fact that most childcare facilities do not accommodate evening sessions. When we think about local constituency engagements, a lot of them are really last minute, or they have to take place in the evening. We do need to reflect on those things. We definitely need to see more childcare allowances and care allowances in general.

Members of the Oireachtas have a team around them but at a local level councillors do not have that administrative support, in particular independent councillors or those who are perhaps the only representative of their party. In some local authorities they provide that type of administrative support offices for councillors and help of that nature.

Something that is a bit left field relates to the transparency of when and where we do our business. We know that a lot of women report that it is a men's club. There needs to be a bit of accountability around that as well.

Ms Miriam Holt:

Absolutely. We agree with what has been said about care. Care responsibilities have always been a barrier and still continue to be. We have not figured out childcare yet. In our experience, the majority of people trying to access education and leadership roles are women who have children.

A universal basic income would be a start. I totally agree with what Ms Coyle says about how we frame social welfare and how people are made to feel about being on social welfare. In our experience, women are constantly trying to protect that payment. What we need to provide is as many supports for participation as we can. That is what we look to do in terms of how we support women, both in education and in progression and leadership roles. We provide holistic supports.

We do provide buddy systems. We do a lot more than just put on a programme because we know that for women to participate fully there is a whole other structure behind that, which is not funded, but that we do anyway because that is what we do.

Ms Ciara McHugh:

I want to address what has been said about putting measures in place for the people who are already here. That is a really valid point. A good thing to do is to look internationally. The Labour Party in the UK, for example, had a strategy called MotheRED, whereby it funded childcare for women running for local elections all over the UK. It was something that was intended to break down that barrier because it was levelling the playing field for women to get in and for them to be able to make changes.

Mention was made of the onus being on political parties, but that is something that needs to be looked into as well, not just when people are in the door but how we open the doors to them.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the speakers. All of us here, in particular the women, have seen the challenges.

Like many, I was a county councillor for over 20 years. Then I became a Senator and am now a Deputy. My battle to get where I am today was a lot harder than it would have been had I been a man. That is the reality and we see it every day. While all women here are so proud to have been Deputies, Senators or councillors, there are challenges every day. Sometimes you think it can be a man's world. Even when speaking to officials in Departments, speaking in general and looking for various things, there are challenges. It is a matter of how we as women change the mindset and encourage young women to enter politics from an early stage. I welcome education, which is so important, as is ensuring women have the opportunities. In this regard, we have spoken about childcare.

Do the guests feel women need to support women more? I believe there is a huge issue in this regard. Do the guests believe women are not confident? Do they believe that, because of the challenges, all of us may be disadvantaged in this regard? I am not referring to politics alone but also to our daily lives. It was mentioned that there were considerable challenges during the Covid pandemic. We saw the role women played. Women, in particular, are very much involved in their communities. Men are, too, but I am talking only about women today. I just do not know. When it comes to all aspects of life, whether they relate to the Garda or women in leadership roles, how can we effect change and promote further participation by women? I always encourage women to get involved in things but there have been major challenges in my area, namely, politics, particularly in the past few years. These have included negativity on Facebook and how much we do. In my area, I come across them. I feel women can change and make a change in society. They will play a huge part.

Countess Markievicz was referred to. She had a major influence on women in politics. We have seen the changes she made over 100 years ago but we now need to make bigger changes. How do we do that?

Well done to all our guests. They are doing a great job. We are all trying to do our best. I am a firm believer that when women are put on the ticket for local, general or European elections, they are put on it to be elected for the work they do and the love they have. Nobody should be put on a ticket to be a token, as we have spoken about. I firmly believe that when you find your place in life, whether you are a woman or man, it is because you have earned it, deserve it and have put the work in. However, the challenges women must face are harder to address than those of men, and we have to ensure they are eliminated. If there are two things that our guests feel would make a change for women in society, what are they?

I thank the guests. It was not easy for any of us, particularly women, to get to this point. I am very passionate about this subject and go to schools when I can to speak about women in politics and encouraging women in politics. There may be something more that we need to do in this regard. Women can and will make the difference, in all walks of life. The guests might answer some of my questions. I thank them for all the work they are doing. It is crucial.

Ms Miriam Holt:

Our focus is on encouraging women to vote, because we get women in the door who think that is another country.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is an issue.

Ms Miriam Holt:

Yes, it is. That is where we are at. I suppose we are at the pre-development stage, making the spaces comfortable for women. That is why we bring politicians to the local projects. It is to have them sitting in the room with women, so women will know them. I am referring to politicians from the women's own communities. The women may never have engaged with them before. We are just trying to take the mystery out of it but it is difficult. It is difficult to encourage women into politics when they see what is happening to women in politics. What we try to do is put supports in place and get women into local leadership roles. Wherever that takes them, we try to support them there. That is the stage we are at.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I say to every woman, but particularly those in politics, because that is my area, that it is so rewarding to be a politician, be it a councillor, who plays a huge part in people's lives, a Senator, a Deputy, a Minister or a Member of the European Parliament. It changes lives. We really need to get that message out and give women the chances. As Ms Holt said, there are challenges.

Ms Miriam Holt:

Women politicians, in particular, have said politics is a hard space to be in but that it is so rewarding. It is so beneficial for women on the ground to hear that.

Ms Vivienne Glanville:

I will add two points to that. The Deputy asked about the one thing on which we could concentrate. For us at grassroots level, it is confidence. There is a sense of impostor syndrome and of not belonging in a leadership role. There is a sense that sticking your head up a little is acceptable if you are fighting for resources for your child or something needed in the community but that the question of confidence arises if you are going to continue. Many women talk about public speaking as a huge barrier. We try to embed this in our programmes and say we all fake it until we make it. This happens all the time.

As Ms Holt stated, there are 17 groups around the country. One of them, Women's Collective Ireland - Limerick, has been running a leadership programme. Many of us are running a first-steps programme but that group is a little more advanced, in that it has asked women whether they are interested in going into politics and what we can do to support them. The group has told other women in the organisation that is has a couple of women who are saying they are interested, and it is asking how we are going to support them. I am referring to women supporting each other. What has been happening in Limerick is really advanced. The group has been having conversations and asking what would make politics safe and how we, as a community, can support women in taking this step on our behalf.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Glanville. That is really important and positive.

Ms Rachel Coyle:

We need to name and address the barriers. We need to call out abuse when we see it and to support each other. Of course women are not confident because the way we have treated women since the foundation of the State has been abysmal. Deputy Murnane O'Connor mentioned Countess Markievicz. We do not hear much about her role after the Rising. Most women have just been written out of history here. That is a fact. I read somewhere that there have been more Johns and Seans in Dáil Éireann than women ever. Therefore, there is much work to do here.

The Deputy made a point on merit and women being on the ticket because they have earned it. Unfortunately, quotas are just one of those necessary evils. We need women candidates and need women to vote. In the recent local elections in the North, 31.8% of candidates who ran were women and 31% got elected. When women are on the ticket, they win and get elected. Unfortunately, the only way to get them on the ticket fast enough is through quotas. The pace of change to have parity is about five election cycles. That is 20 years, which is unacceptable. It is a generation. I just say, "Nothing about us without us". The proximity of local government decisions, in particular, to women's lives makes it all the more important for women to be involved.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Well done. That is true.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Senator O'Sullivan is next. Could he confirm he is on the grounds of Leinster House?

Ms Miriam Holt:

We are funded through the Department. What we are really funded for is staffing. We have 50 staff between the national organisation and local branches. We lever in funding for programmes, supports and so on. We are mainly funded for staffing but also for some overheads.

Ms Rachel Coyle:

We thank the Senator for his approval. To address his question directly, we never claimed to speak for all women. We are a membership organisation and we are mandated by our members with regard to our policy approach. We are an unapologetic feminist organisation. I want to be very clear about that.

With regard to the other items the Senator raised, the changes and improvements for women in this country were brought about as a result of women's activism. I want to be clear about that as well. It was decades and decades of campaign work by fearless women that brought about improvements for women in this country.

The Senator is absolutely right with regard to women in community affairs. We see women really lifting the mantle in their local communities but how are they compensated for their time in doing this? We talk about care work and the unfair burden on women in shouldering some of that. It is the same in the community and voluntary sector. Women should be compensated for their time. We should not always be relying on people to volunteer their time. People's financial pressures have really changed in the last decade. Our community and voluntary sector needs to be reflective of that.

The Senator mentioned barriers at conventions. It is fair to use the term "token" but he is right, when people are on the ticket, they have to do the work and get themselves elected. However, the actual barriers at convention are very well documented. I would be happy to send the Senator on further information about that.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Would Ms McHugh like to come in before I bring in Ms Holt or Ms Glanville?

Ms Ciara McHugh:

I wish to address the Senator's comment that some women are just not political animals and are not interested. It is wrong to make that assumption. Politics is not accessible for women because of the barriers that we have discussed. We should not jump immediately to the conclusion that women are not interested and it is not what they want to do, given the amount of work that women do in our communities. The issue is not that women are not interested. The issue is that the system is set up in a way that excludes them. That is what we need to address.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Senator O'Sullivan will have to put himself on mute. We can hear the Seanad bells as if they were in this room.

Ms Miriam Holt:

Our focus is on women in leadership roles. We are aware of the role of women in their communities. We want to see those women in politics. We comprise more than 50% of the population, yet that is not reflected in our representation. There are many women who are political animals but who are being stopped from accessing politics by barriers.

Our focus is on women in leadership on the ground, but we are a member of the National Women's Council and we work closely with other organisations, for example, the 5050 Group and Women in Politics, at national and local levels.

Mary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
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I loved the witnesses' opening statements. I am sorry I was not present to hear them, but I read their submissions at the weekend. I value that we are championing making sure that we hear women's voices. This is the first Seanad to have such a large percentage of women. Consequently, the content of debate is more empathetic and a different side of things is heard.

I get what Senator O'Sullivan is saying a little. Sometimes, when you are in one of the more traditional political parties, you can feel that you are judged, momentum is moving away and you are not included. As a woman in a Government party, though, I am no less a feminist and advocate than someone in an Opposition party. We need to be sensitive to and respectful of that. In my party's history, there have been many fine women who broke glass ceilings and were fantastic champions of feminism.

I have experience of being the CEO of an organisation that built homeless accommodation at a cost of €13 million. The first time I sat down with a number of my managers and the design team, the architect chairing the design team asked me – I was the only woman in the room – if I would take the notes. One of our managers, whom I went on to marry, was quick to turn around and say "I do not think so and do not ever address her like that again" before I got an opportunity to say it. This is a perfect example of an attitude in the room that women were subservient. It is important that we name it, call it out and tackle it.

I value that we conduct a great deal of analysis of candidates, the number of women candidates, the number of Deputies, the number of Senators and the number of councillors, but one area where analysis is lacking is in the permanent government. I have been in national politics for three years and was elected to a council in 2019. In my three years in national politics, I have realised how much of a say the permanent government has. I sometimes wonder whether it has an inherent misogyny. There have been issues with the representation of various Departments at Oireachtas committees - there can be only men and male voices at the table. I wonder about that and the impact it has. Has there been any analysis of this matter and is it something that the witnesses might consider doing? We got feedback during the development of the surrogacy legislation – the Chair will be familiar with it – that was very male dominated and did not have a female input, and those of us on the surrogacy committee were not necessarily asked for our input either. We should be calling this issue out. Maybe we need quotas in the permanent government. There are women in lead roles in the likes of the Department of Health, but we need to tackle this issue in the permanent government.

I wonder about gender quotas. I agree that we need to force the issue. Otherwise, it will not happen. It raises resentment, though, which has to be negotiated. There is the idea that someone is in her role because she is a woman, was picked for it, etc. That is unfair and disingenuous as regards the skill and hard work involved. I got on the ticket in 2019 because I was a woman and a woman's inclusion in the local authority ward was necessary, but I went out, proved myself and won the election. Technically, I was a token woman candidate, but I got through the election because I took the opportunity and ran with it. It was a little of what Senator O'Sullivan referenced.

We need to consider the matter of women activists, but I will stop there, as I want to hear what the witnesses have to say about the permanent government.

Ms Rachel Coyle:

I thank the Senator for her contribution. If she does not mind, I will address her point about how the Seanad having more women has changed the tone and led to it being more collaborative. I acknowledge the all-party women's caucus in the Oireachtas. It is a testament to the women in this building. A great deal of good work has been done through that caucus. It is something that we called for at local level as well. We have been supporting local government and regional women's caucuses. We mentioned a buddy system earlier. A caucus is a space in which to support one another and to approach our work in a more feminist way, that is, more collaboratively.

When the Senator spoke about the permanent government, was she referring to the Civil Service?

Mary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Ms Rachel Coyle:

The Senator was dead right. We see that across various sectors. There is a glass ceiling. Women outperform men in formal graduate education, but rarely is that reflected in leadership. For example, the vast majority of the workforce in schools are women, but that is not the case among school principals. The Senator is right, in that there are challenges around glass ceilings. The same could be said about boards. I acknowledge the Bill published by the Senator's colleague-----

Mary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
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Deputy Higgins.

Ms Rachel Coyle:

-----to try to increase women's representation. We are all human, and when people are looking across the hiring table, they may be looking for themselves. That could play a role in this situation. Much more needs to be done. If quotas are a tangible option, then they should be explored.

This tends to be seen as a niche issue, yet women are not a minority and women's rights are human rights and need to be addressed in that manner.

Ms Miriam Holt:

I agree with everything the Senator said.

What we are tasked with at local level is around confidence building. We have seen very strong women come through our projects. We work in collaboration with other organisations, including the NCWI, on how to help women progress and supporting them around that. We recognise we are not the experts in that, nor should we be, but we know who are.

I mentioned that we bring local politicians into the projects. We do not look at whether they are a man or a woman. The women in those projects do not either. It is about what the issues are, what people represent, whether they know about women's lives and what they can do for those women. We see the women's caucus as a vital way forward. Our WCI Limerick project was the first to host a local women's caucus. We are working behind the scenes as well, even though our work is on the ground and is community education. We are advancing women's leadership through that.

Mary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
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It is very powerful. I went through all the WCI projects on its website. They are very powerful projects. I am involved in the Fine Gael Women's Network. As part of that, there is a mentoring programme to tackle that confidence piece. People in media training say that the lads will rock up and do not feel the need to prepare, while women do a huge amount of background work and prepare for maybe a couple of hours for a 15-minute gig, as the Cathaoirleach said. They put in the work because of impostor syndrome. It was incredible for me. I am a swan; it looks all cool on top but underneath I am paddling away. It is about actually acknowledging that. We had a fantastic morning where we looked at that confidence and wellbeing piece with a number of women who will be candidates next year, and in the general election, whenever that is. It is about saying that you never get to a place of having it all learned off and it will be fine. You are always pushing uphill and you just have to feel the fear and do it anyway, to be clichéd about it. It was very good to acknowledge that.

One of the struggles we and a couple of my colleagues have had related to talking about the abuse piece. At the beginning, we were afraid it would be counterintuitive. If we talked about it, it may amplify or encourage it, yet my argument has been that we should talk about it, call it out, say it is not acceptable and that we are not accepting it. We have a rule in our office, if people cross the threshold of a lack of respect, to say we are sorry and discontinue the call or whatever. If I appear on television, I will get critique about what I wore or what my hair was like. Everything about me will come in through emails that same night. That is not acceptable. Some day, I will not be in national office and I will get an opportunity to reply to those emails and the things-----

Mary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
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-----but for now I have to be mannerly and just delete them. We were afraid of the amplification but there was a need to call it out and say this is happening and it is not acceptable. Do the witnesses have advice on that? How do they deal with that tension?

Ms Rachel Coyle:

The Senator is talking about hyper-preparation. We have come with reams of documents and preparation. I acknowledge the engagement we have had with the Fine Gael Women's Network and its equality officer.

Mary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
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Ms Deirdre Campbell is amazing.

Ms Rachel Coyle:

Absolutely. She has worked very closely with us and we have talked to her about the toolkit we have developed on social media policies for political parties to address the fact that women disproportionately receive abuse online. It ranges from anything from what women look like to serious threats of violence. Social media companies are clearly not taking action on this. We obviously encourage people to report but they do not. Unfortunately, it goes back to political parties having to deal with this. It is not always easy because, in some cases, members of political parties are responsible for the abuse of women and female elected representatives. It is a difficult one. It is not easy to address that tension. None of us wants to be in the position of, "Oh, there she goes again". I hate always having to be that person in the room when I am the only female voice but, unfortunately, we just have to keep at it.

We absolutely support the Senator in what she is doing and with anything we can do. We have what I think is a very good resource that our researchers developed. If there is any follow-up training or presentations we can make around this, we would be very happy to do that.

Ms Ciara McHugh:

I will follow on from what Ms Coyle said. On what the Senator said about whether to call it out, for too long, as a society, there has been a cult of silence over the mistreatment of women. It needs to be called out. I come from the North. Some of the things we are getting up there include murder threats, death threats and sexual assault threats. It is not acceptable to say that men get it too because there is a sinister element and legitimate threat to women that is very real and a very true threat to women in this society. The Senator is right to call it out.

Ms Deirdre Campbell said resilience training and things like that are being done as well. It is very interesting and she is right. She said resilience is not about saying to get over yourself, and that it is fine and par for the course. In the context of the mental health crisis we have in this country, the damage this is doing to human beings is a very real thing. We very much welcome the task force that will work on this. I 100% agree with the Senator on, and we support, calling it out because it is not acceptable to hide that abuse anymore, as a society.

Mary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
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When women came in at the beginning of this Dáil session, a query came in fromThe Irish Times asking us to discuss what abuse we had been subject to. I answered the questions and recall including in it a reference to my very first Facebook post. Somebody had said to me that posts on Facebook could be boosted. I had never done so before so I innocently did a boost. It was very simple. I was running a public meeting on cybersafety and took a photograph of myself under my poster, which in itself is a very scary thing to do the first time your poster is up. I put the photograph on social media and got rape threats and everything like that. I recall that.

When the article was published in The Irish Times- the journalist rang me and did it - gardaí in Terenure rang me to ask why I had not contacted them about the abuse. I told them it was because I took it as par for the course in politics. The gardaí said to never do the slightest thing like that again but talk to them. They may not be able to do anything but at least I would know they were there. There have been instances since, including letters hand-delivered to the Houses of the Oireachtas that I have had to bring to the attention of the Garda. The team in Leinster House has been fantastic and very supportive, as have my local gardaí. Maybe it is a confidence thing, but in the beginning I thought I just had to endure this, whereas I have now reached the stage where I will not tolerate this. I have a right to be here and I will not take this kind of threat. It is something we need to constantly call out and support each other in.

Ms Miriam Holt:

Women on the ground need to hear that. They need to hear what the Senator is putting up with, in addition to her resilience and how she is dealing with the situation. When women come to the project, they talk about the benefits of being in politics. You also have to be real and say what is involved because everybody knows what a difficult space it is to be in. That is what women on the ground need to hear. We have also found, when we have male politicians in, that they are very upfront about how horrendous the abuse is and how it is not acceptable. That is also reassuring, in a way. Women absolutely need to hear how the Senator is dealing with that.

Mary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
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I do not know whether women get a thicker skin. I would hate to think that I have because I know the first time, I got sick, my legs and my knees went from under me and then I moved to delete everything because I was afraid that if my husband saw it, he would be too frightened for me being in politics. I did not want to have to deal with his nerves as well. I think there is a circular thing where I become responsible for other people's emotions while I am trying to manage my own and have the courage to step forward in political life as well. We are a support for each other. I am sorry, it is turning into a chat.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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No, that is totally fine. It has been a very good meeting and it is really interesting. There are a number of points I want to make as well. First, on the family-friendly policies in here, I totally take that we have to encourage more women and it starts at local level. I believe if a person does not break in at local level, it is very difficult. Some people do run for the Dáil or Seanad and get in but you really need to have it at local level. The childcare issue is a big one. That is a great suggestion in terms of what they did in Britain, which was actually paying for childcare. Sometimes people say it would be good to have childcare available at Leinster House. First, it actually is available. I obviously live in Kilkenny and while my kids have gone past the childcare stage and are in the teenage stage now, I would not have brought them up from their school in Kilkenny and who would have dropped them off up here? It is not realistic to state that childcare can be provided on-site as such. That is the same regardless of whether someone is trying to get in first at local level or whether a person is an actual councillor. Such people need to get the financial help because most of the time, people have a system or avenue but the money comes against them. Whether it is a childminder, the local crèche or even if it is family, it is needed in order that a person is able to reimburse them. I hope none of my family are looking at this because they have helped me out for a long number of years.

A really good report was done to try to make the institution here a bit more family-friendly. They have started to implement some of the stuff around it and have tried to match up some of the recesses with school holidays. However, the thing that annoys me the most is where we have gone backwards. In the 2016 to 2020 Dáil term the voting block was at 1 p.m. on Thursdays. It is now at 9 p.m. on Wednesday nights. To me that is the most glaring and obvious thing that could change. According to the report that was published, it is something the Houses of the Oireachtas are looking to change but it has not been done. We obviously have to encourage people to get on the ticket and get elected but it can be difficult in here too. As someone made reference to, one can see the eyes roll that it is the same person who is always the one bringing up these issues that this is not a suitable time for voting. I also do not think it is good to have the votes late at night from a general worker's point of view. How engaged are people if they have been there since 9 a.m. that morning and stuff like that? That is one thing I will highlight and if we can throw a spotlight on it, it is a really obvious thing.

There are a lot of very good suggestions in that report and I sometimes wonder whether there is opposition in certain sectors, similar to what Senator Seery Kearney said, to implementing some of that stuff.

Mary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
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There was a time the Business Committee did not have a woman on it.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. Even if we look at how we are not 50:50 in here, there are other positions such as Oireachtas Chairs. I think there were three female Oireachtas Chairs and now there are only two. Little things like that. There is an awful lot more that needs to be done. Obviously a person needs to break in here, for the want of a better word, but there are a lot more practical things that could be done around that as well in terms of then being in here.

I made points about childcare and accessibility because we kind of stray into talking about politics but it is about the education and leadership as well and they are really key elements to it. The best way out of poverty is access to education and that comes back to access to quality, affordable, accessible childcare. That is something we hope to look at after the recess. We have had meetings about early years topics and we hope to look back at that because that is a key part of all of this. Extending some of the schemes to childminders as well would be very helpful particularly for people in rural communities who do not necessarily have access to centre-based early years services as such.

My last point is that I totally agree with what Senator Ruane said. There should be something relating to the funding being linked to running women in winnable seats. Not running the women as the third candidate out of three and hoping to get two candidates elected. I think there should be a strong emphasis on this. The other reason for that is it focuses the minds. Let us be honest there are some people who see this as an inconvenience and see this as "we have to get a woman". I have lost track of the amount of times I have heard that. We want to have women involved and we want women's voices and experiences at the table. If the funding is based on winnable seats, it will help to change the narrative. It is terrible to say that we have to do that but it should be looked at. I welcome the fact that the funding for political parties to encourage women and look at different ways of doing that has been introduced. I welcome that there are gender quotas but it needs to be more than just running women and ticking the box. There needs to be a percentage of winnable seats. I had no questions in that; it was just a big rant that I go on.

Mary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
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We need it though.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Does anybody want to comment before Deputy Ward speaks?

Ms Rachel Coyle:

I will back up the Chair's rant to be honest. In terms of sweeper votes how can Ireland really call itself a representative democracy when so many voices are missing? The point I made earlier is that when women are on the ticket they get elected so it is actually in parties' best interests to start thinking about-----

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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They are more transfer friendly.

Ms Rachel Coyle:

Yes. It is in the parties' interests to increase women's representation. Not to be conspiratorial about whether there is opposition to implementing family-friendly policies but from conversations we had with local authorities, there is not necessarily an obvious reluctance. I think it is just that we have fallen into patterns of doing things in the way we do our work because it is the way things were always done. For me anyway, the pandemic exposed that. I just do not believe that. As things can be done differently and better, it is about having the conversation and we can do that in these spaces, so I really appreciate the opportunity to do so.

Mary Seery Kearney (Fine Gael)
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Apologies, I have to attend another meeting.

Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I apologise for going in and out of the meeting. I was speaking in the Dáil and this is my third committee meeting today. I thank the Chair for allowing me to attend this meeting. I was a member of this committee until very recently but have been moved off it. It is great to have the witnesses in and the conversation was very enlightening. It is not stuff that I do not already know and luckily enough, the national headquarters of Women's Collective Ireland is in my constituency and I can see its head office from my constituency office when I look out from my window and strain my neck to the right. We are also lucky to have the other three grassroots organisations - correct me if I am wrong - in Ronanstown, Liffey Valley, and Lucan in the same constituency as well. Their work does not always get promoted, I am not saying by the witnesses, but by everybody else and I want to recognise the hard work that Women's Collective Ireland does in my area. I have been one of those politicians who have been in the room with the women and if I was not doing my job, I would get a hard time. That is the way I look at it. I have always received a good welcome in there.

When talking about women, I always think about my mother. I said to her that she was a pioneer when it came to women's rights and women being different in terms of pushing themselves forward. My mother went back to work when I was a teenager and I was like, "Mammy is at work. How did this happen?" It was kind of a shock to the system. She reared her kids to a certain age and obviously there were monetary issues as well that a lot of families around my area battle with. She went back to work and it was a really brave thing. I think she was the only mammy in my road who had gone back to work as well. I do give her enough credit because if I did not, she would give out to me. I like to think I have passed that on to my two daughters. They are better than me.

They have me wrapped around their finger. I cannot argue with them any more because they win every argument that we have. I like to think that when they grow older they will be strong, independent women themselves and that they have the same access to everything that their father has. Male privilege needs to be removed from a lot things that we do. I have probably gone on a little rant.

I have a couple of questions. I will start with the Women's Collective Ireland. I was talking to the witnesses from it a while ago about one of its programmes. I think it was the Community Grassroots Weaving All Island Connections project, which takes an all-island approach. They met with a group of women from the Shankill Road. Could the witnesses elaborate on how that went and what the initiative involves? Such conversations are vitally important in the changing Ireland we have at the moment, in particular in the Six Counties where the changing conversation is going on at a dramatic pace. It is vitally important to have the conversation and I am interested in hearing about it.

Ms Vivienne Glanville:

We got funding from the Reconciliation Fund to partner three Women's Collective Ireland projects with three projects in the North. We had WCI South Kerry partner with Portglenone, WCI North Leitrim partnered with Hilltown in Newry and WCI Clondalkin-Ronanstown partnered with the Shankill Road. We had six women from each of those groups. They went on Zoom and they had six connections. First, they talked about the issues in each community and what similarities there were. Then they did some art activism. They managed to tell their story through activism. We managed to print off and publish zines. It was activism in action. We brought them together for an in-person event. Our partners were Shankill Women's Centre and the Northern Ireland Rural Women's Network, NIRWN. In total, 36 women worked together. We are in the middle of compiling a report. They have given us a lot of work because they want to get to know each other. They want to stand in Clondalkin, Tallaght, and Belfast and be in the space with each other. When the news is on, they want to know that if something is happening in Dublin that it is relevant to them in the same way as what is happening in the North is relevant to the women in the South.

Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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If I can, I will ask a quick question on that as well because I am really interested in it. It is a brilliant initiative. Ms Glanville can correct me if I am wrong, but I guess the same issues come up for the people in our area in Ronanstown and the people in the Shankill Road. They might be a million miles apart in some respects but are the basic day-to-day issues the same?

Ms Vivienne Glanville:

Yes, definitely. They all spoke about mental health, childcare and barriers. We talked about our healthcare system. Both have pros and cons in each area. There was a lot to talk about. We were pretty much talking about the cost of living and dealing with poverty - heat and fuel poverty.

Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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That is fantastic. It is excellent. I look forward to seeing that report.

Ms Miriam Holt:

They just took over in the in-person event. We did not even have to facilitate it. They just owned the event. One would not know which women were from which group because they all really connected with each other. It was wonderful to see. As Ms Glanville says, we have loads of material for the report.

Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I look forward to seeing that report. It is going to be really interesting. I am angling for an invitation to the launch of the report.

I am a great believer in education being key to all groups and getting out of whatever situation people are in, especially in terms of people making a better life for themselves and their families. That is paramount. I am someone who left school early and went back to education later on in life so I know the power of education. Without accessing education later on in life, there is no way I would be sitting here today, so I know the power involved. I also know the barriers that women in particular face in regard to education. When I did my final course in An Cosán, there was a sign on the wall saying that to educate a man is to educate an individual but to educate a woman is to educate a community. It always stuck with me how powerful that was. As legislators and representatives, what can we do to bring down the barriers to make it a lot easier and more accessible for women to enter education? I know the witnesses probably answered this earlier on.

Ms Vivienne Glanville:

If we look at the model we have in Women's Collective Ireland, in some of the projects we have from first steps to third level. That is our mantra. We champion the first steps programmes, but if women look to progress and want to take those steps, we are there to offer them. One of the models we have is the outreach model with the universities. We have partnered with UCD an the South East Technological University, SETU, in Waterford and Wexford. The universities have offered us outreach opportunities. We are looking outside the box. The lecturer comes to the community where people live, rather than 40 students all travelling to the campus. The same information is going to be given in the lectures. One person travels rather than many. That is the model that we have been using and it is working extremely well in Clondalkin. Deputy Ward has probably seen many of our graduations. The same is true in Waterford. The course is the women and gender studies, level 7.

Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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That is the group I had in here. I remember they were brilliant.

Ms Vivienne Glanville:

What happens in that space is that supports are put in place. We have mentoring, IT support, and a buddy system. A person partners with somebody who has done it previously, who will give back and be a helping hand. We also assist with childcare and with the loan of laptops. We try to look at the barriers. We are doing it for a long time now. We try to break them down and see what we can put in place. As members well know, it can bring up issues when people start a new programme or start analysing human rights and society. They might need referrals to specialist agencies also, such as counselling when different things happen. We have all of that in place now as well because we have seen that it can be an issue too.

Ms Rachel Coyle:

I acknowledge that Women's Collective Ireland is a member of the National Women's Council. We work incredibly closely. We are just in awe of its approach to things and we rely on it a lot.

I will address the point around education. We did talk a little bit earlier about it, but the point that was made about bringing the education to the community is key. To go up a level, the barrier to women's lives generally is poverty. Even when it is not poverty, it is access to quality public services. That is what we need as a society to maximise women's engagement. A fully public model of childcare is essential, as is security in housing, energy security, and access to safe public transport routes. These are all critical for women's access.

WCI's all-island project is excellent. We look forward to the report on it. I draw Deputy Ward's attention to the work our leadership officer, Ms McHugh, has been doing in terms of the All Island Women's Forum. Perhaps she could speak to that.

Ms Ciara McHugh:

The All-Island Women's Forum started in 2021 and we are now into our second stage. It is an all-island space. There is equal representation of groups from the North and the South. It is about building solidarity. We have 40 members and we are trying to grow it as well to ensure diversity and that all the different voices come in. This year we are going from talking about our areas of commonality and moving on to say what we are going to do. We are looking at how we are going to take what we are learning and doing in this forum and bring it into our communities.

We have two working groups. The first is women's representation, which looks to representation in public life, civic life and in the community. The second group is North-South relations. It is looking at those areas of solidarity and what is coming up again and again is the cost-of-living crisis and budget cuts to communities. I am sensing as the working groups go on almost a sense of panic from groups all over the country. They talk of the cuts to their communities, being able to feed their families and all of these things. We look at it on an all-island basis to see that solidarity. As the Deputy mentioned, you might be worlds apart ideologically but if you cannot feed your child it does not matter what flag you are under. That is the reality of the situation. The forum we have is creating space for solidarity, learning from each other and working together to make change and improve women's lives across the board.

Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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That is a really good and positive initiative.

Ms Miriam Holt:

Through being a member of the women’s forum, I was able to make connections with the Northern Ireland Rural Women's Network and Shankill Women’s Centre. They partnered then on the reconciliation fund programme.

Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Now you know them and they know you. Barriers have been broken down. It is not rocket science. It is a brilliant initiative.

Ms Miriam Holt:

We had not connected with any women’s organisations in the North prior to that so it has been a real success for us.

Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I briefly listened to the discussion earlier on the barriers to women going into politics. The Chair mentioned it as well there. I thought it was tokenism at first when an initiative was brought in in relation to women in sport: “If she can’t see it, she can’t be it.” I now think that move has had an impact. It is simple things like Sky Sports news, for example, has the same amounts of women sports highlighted as men’s sports. That is the way it should always have been but it was not like that. Over the years, you would have got maybe a 30-second snippet at the end.

I have mentored girls’ GAA teams for years and seen the work they do. I have often seen when the hailstones came and the boys ran off the pitch and the girls were still out on the pitch. Yet when the funding came through to the club or whatever, the boys would get a bit more funding than the girls. That has started to change in recent years and that is down to a national emphasis being put on it. The other thing to bring up women’s sport is that funding has matched that. It was not just speaking; funding has been brought into that. We have seen how well the Ireland women’s soccer team is doing because funding has started to be put in place. They are not changing in an airport on the way to matches or getting hand-me-downs from the boys any more. They are being recognised for the athletes they are. They have done our country proud and will continue to do so.

Is that overarching piece in relation to recognition and promotion of women coming into politics in place, as well as the funding that goes with it? As the Chair said, there are only two Chairs that are women in here. I am lucky enough to be in a party that is led by strong women and we have women in prominent positions, including the Chair, but it is not always the same. They promoted women in sport. What needs to be done to do the same for women in politics?

Ms Ciara McHugh:

The word “funding” is probably not right; the word we are looking for is “investment”. It is not a case of the local camogie or football team, where you threw money at the situation and everything was fine. It was things like making sure they had a changing room and transport and that they were fed after training. These are all things that were fed back from my own club. It was not to say the hurling team was better than the camogie team in athletic ability but the barriers were there for women and the investment to remove those meant the women’s football team could achieve. That is transferable to politics. It is not a matter of funding or throwing money at something and all is well; it is a matter of investing in childcare, hybrid working environments, support, training and education. When you invest, you remove barriers and get the development the Deputy mentioned.

Ms Rachel Coyle:

That was very well put. I know the Deputy had to step out for a while. Funding for the women’s, community and voluntary sectors was cut during austerity and has never been properly brought back. I am sure my fellow witnesses could talk about that better than I can. That is the space where women cut their teeth, capacity-build, build alliances and learn how to advocate and campaign. What does it say to women when they are not compensated for the time they put in? There is a constant reliance on women’s goodwill and volunteering when they have financial struggles, responsibilities and pressures in their own lives. These issues tend to be seen as niche. Women’s rights are human rights. I am sure Deputy Ward would not argue with that. Women's and girl’s lives and the activities we carry out matter. We are not a minority. The women’s, community and voluntary sector has been at the coalface of supporting the most vulnerable people in our society. If that is removed, what are we left with? I wanted to say that because much hard work goes on behind the scenes which is never properly compensated.

Ms Miriam Holt:

As Ms McHugh said, it is about investment rather than funding. We do a lot on little. That is what the community does. It is about, for the women we work with, “If she can’t see it, she can’t be it.”. They will tell you there is no one with their accent there, but now we are seeing women with those accents there. They will go into the spaces where there are women with their accent. That is what is needed. We are very aware that we are in 17 communities and there are many communities we are not in where there is no women’s organisation on the ground. We need and constantly call for investment in the sector.

Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I enjoyed that engagement. I thank the witnesses. It was really informative.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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It has been a really good and interesting meeting. It is great it is in a public forum. Hopefully, people are listening and watching in. Is it agreed to publish the opening statements to the Oireachtas website? Agreed. I thank the witnesses for coming in and for their engagement.