Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome everybody to the Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage. We are meeting to discuss homelessness and the homelessness report this committee published about 18 months ago. I am delighted to be joined in the committee room by, from the Dublin Region Homeless Executive, DRHE, Ms Mary Hayes, director, and Mr. John Durkan, deputy director. From Threshold, we are joined by Mr. John-Mark McCafferty, CEO, and Ms Ann-Marie O’Reilly, national advocacy manager. From Simon, we are joined by Mr. Wayne Stanley, executive director of Simon Communities, and Mr. Jonathan Shinnors, regional manager for emergency accommodation at Mid-West Simon. We are joined online by Dr. Dermot Kavanagh, who is the CEO of Cork Simon. They are all very welcome. I thank them for taking time out of their busy days to assist the committee.

I will read a quick note on privilege before we start. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place where the Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, to participate in public meetings. Witnesses attending in the committee room are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their contributions to today's meeting. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. For witnesses attending remotely, there are some limitations to parliamentary privilege and, as such, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a person who is physically present in the Leinster House complex does. Members and witnesses are expected not to abuse the privilege they enjoy. It is my duty as Chair to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative people comply with any such direction.

Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

For the opening statement sequence, I will start with the DRHE, followed by Threshold and then Simon. Members will have about a seven- or eight-minute segment each for them to ask a question and get an answer.

I invite Ms Hayes to make her opening statement on behalf of DRHE.

Ms Mary Hayes:

I am attending in my capacity as director of the Dublin Region Homeless Executive, which falls under the aegis of Dublin City Council. We operate on behalf of the four Dublin local authorities. As the committee is aware, as of the end of April 2023, there were 1,263 families and 4,128 single adults accessing emergency accommodation in the Dublin region. Our focus or the pillars of DRHE's work are, as I have set out, prevention, progression out of homelessness and protection for people who are experiencing homeless. All of that is underpinned by our fourth pillar, which is governance.

I will run through the highlights of the report. We place a strong emphasis on prevention. To date this year, 234 families and 174 single adults and couples have been prevented from entering homelessness . That said, I have concerns. We have been heavily reliant in previous years on the creation of alternative tenancies through the homeless housing assistance payment, HAP, scheme. In the Dublin region, that is a deposit, two months’ rent in advance and up to 50% additional discretion for households at risk of or experiencing homelessness. I am concerned because there is a month-on-month fall both in prevention and exits from homelessness. Our ability to access the private rented market for both prevention and exits is quite hampered.

Social housing lettings are key for us. Local authorities are aware we have to do more prevention through social housing lettings. What that means for us is that in respect of every person who comes in the door at the moment who is at risk of homelessness, we asses his or her position on the list and whether there is any way we can find that person an offer so he or she does not have to come in and access emergency accommodation. Some of that is through promotion of choice based letting schemes, as members will be familiar with, in the Dublin region. I wish to take the opportunity to clarify that under Dublin City Council’s scheme of lettings, a policy was adopted that, in the case of an older person or anybody over the age of 70, we set aside the scheme and they are offered immediate accommodation. We use that as judiciously as we can if people are at that age or thereabouts.

We rely heavily on some of the services we fund, such as the NGO services next to me, for their high-quality advice, advocacy and mediation. That can be key for prevention. We do not want to fund services that are signposting how to get into homeless services; rather we want services that are focused on keeping people out. That is a key difference for us. It is not about just describing what homeless services are; prevention is about stopping someone coming in. We are lucky with some of our partners in terms of the quality of their work and the quality of the advice they give.

On exits, I have gone through a couple of graphs. Graphs are graphs. I just want to highlight the key important point, which is there is no great change to presentations in the Dublin region. Despite the numbers rising in homelessness, there is no great change in singles or families presenting. Looking at the monthly average going back over the years, we can expect roughly 160 singles per month. In quarter 1 of 2023, we had 164. We are broadly pretty much the same as we have been for the past couple of years. It is the exact same story with families. There is no great change. Particularly outside the Covid times but even including those, about 74 families per month are presenting to homeless services and that is what we are seeing at the moment. In quarter 1, we saw 68. Those figures are pretty consistent. We would normally expect to see around 70 families. Outside of moratoria time, we would normally expect to see anywhere in the region between 70 and 80 families per month presenting. Therefore, it is not presentations that are causing either the rise in family or single homelessness. In our mind, it is predominantly the fact we are not exiting at the same rate and that is the real concern. Options are not available for people to exit to, especially in the private rented sphere. That is a concern because it leads to an increase or a banking up of homelessness. That is essentially what those three graphs are describing. The only time we would have seen a halving of family homelessness, we had fewer presentations, but of far more relevance was that we had increased exits. That is what makes the difference. I will not labour the point because I am sure members are well familiar with it.

Over all categories of accommodation, we are dropping in exits, including HAP. All four Dublin local authorities are trying hard to increase our local authority and approved housing body, AHB, lettings. Some of that is to do with the fact that people who are in emergency accommodation have quite recent housing applications and that can hamper us. I have argued at this committee before how important it would be to have a scheme to have extra targets under long-term leasing or something that is an alternative to emergency accommodation. I understand, and I have said this before, people’s reluctance about long-term leasing, but anything is preferable, both in social and economic terms, to homelessness. To be fair, we have been supported in that with a targeted leasing scheme. However, unfortunately for Dublin City Council, there has not been a huge uptake in that.

Something that has been positive that we welcome is the tenantin situacquisitions. As members may know, that scheme was introduced in 2018 by Brendan Kenny in Dublin City Council.

We welcome the commitment of the Government and the Department to funding that for us. I have just given the Dublin City Council numbers. I have not done the entire region but the committee will see that in Dublin City Council, we have 164 sale agreed and 18 over the line. It is critically important to us in Dublin. We take it extremely seriously. We are very happy that we are on the brink of reaching what was given to us as a target. We will probably have done that by today. We very much welcome the fact we have been giving comfort and reassurance to the national homeless action team that we will be able to go beyond that 400 acquisition target.

Regarding the committee's report and being able to answer some of the key concerns expressed in 2021 and what has happened since then, if we were to outline it fundamentally, the idea was to get away from using emergency accommodation. We are clearly not in a position where that is possible just yet. Some of those forces are outside of the DRHE's control. We are certainly not there but we support anything that is housing led. One of the key issues was the quality of private emergency accommodation and the concern about what was considered poor value and poor service comparable with NGO-style accommodation. My colleagues and I work very hard ourselves and we have NGO teams going into the private emergency accommodation as well as the HSE, which has been a key partner to us since we were last before the committee in supporting us in the work we do.

A key area of focus is training, and I have named the training areas in the submission. The committee had a specific interest the last time in trauma-informed care. That is being covered and members can see the instances. With trauma informed care, we are building up. We are starting with NGOs and then we are moving to the private emergency accommodation, PEA, providers. A serious amount of training has been done since we were last here. That is very much with the support of the HSE.

We have introduced key performance indicators, KPIs. We said we would work on balancing the national quality standards between private emergency accommodation and NGO accommodation. They started from two very different places and NGOs had a head start of several years. We have now equalised what we expect from a facility, whether an emergency accommodation facility or homeless service. That is comparable between the two services. If it is an NGO-run and owned service, we test the NGO. We can do the full suite of services for the NGO. If it is a PEA-run facility, I do not want PEA providers doing care and case management. What I want is our NGO partners, HSE staff or local authority staff providing care and case management. They take the care and case management set of standards but the facilities standards are now the same in both PEAs and NGO services. To underscore that, we have an inspectorate, which Mr. Durkan would have tendered for maybe two years ago. The inspectorate looks at fire standards, building standards and food standards within all the accommodation. Those reports are put up on the website for anybody to see and we are rolling that out quarter by quarter.

There is also the development of in-reach and the development of a more collaborative and joined-up approach. We have five NGO services going into the private emergency accommodation now. We have the HSE and we have our own workers. We are really trying to make sure someone can feel there are a lot more wraparound supports, as the committee recommended back in 2021. It works best when we are working together, or certainly from our point of view. I would just underscore that. If the committee has any other questions on outstanding recommendations, I am happy to answer.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Ms Hayes for that comprehensive report.

Mr. John-Mark McCafferty:

We would like to sincerely thank the committee for inviting us to speak to it today. I am joined by Ms Ann-Marie O’Reilly, Threshold’s national advocacy manager. Threshold is a national charity which provides a tenancy protection service focusing on advice and homeless prevention. Our specialism is the private rental sector and the Residential Tenancies Acts. Threshold has been supporting renters since 1978, and approximately 20,000 private renters and their families across the State avail of Threshold’s assistance each year.

Since 2014, when we began to see significant increases in rent and a similar rise in the number of people entering homelessness from within the private rental sector, Threshold has been at the forefront in keeping people in their homes or ensuring they have the advice they need regarding their tenancy. In this regard, we greatly appreciate the support of our statutory funders, including the DRHE, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and other local authorities, as well as the HSE.

Today, I will set out briefly the trends we are seeing on the ground, the challenges faced in preventing homelessness, and possible solutions to reducing and ending homelessness. Regarding trends, since 2022, we have seen an increase in the number of people who are at risk of homelessness, who are forced to into hidden homelessness or who are overholding, as well as an increase in the amount of time we spend working with clients. To place this in context, in the first quarter of 2022, we worked with 5,360 households who were at risk of homelessness. In the first quarter of this year we worked with 6,001 who were at risk. That is an increase of about 12%. We identified 475 of our clients who were overholding in the first quarter of this year compared with 303 in the first quarter of last year, which is a significant increase of 57%.

We have also seen an increase in the number of people experiencing hidden homelessness. In the first quarter of this year, 68 households were force to couch-surf or sofa-surf, staying with family and friends in what they hope is a temporary set-up while searching for a new home. There were 58 households in this situation in the first quarter of last year, but in the same quarter in 2020 there were just five. Obviously there were some extenuating circumstances in 2020. In the first quarter of this year, 104 households we worked with entered homelessness. The figure for the same period last year was 98, which is similar.

In terms of challenges, these few headline figures point to how it is becoming more difficult to prevent people from losing their home and for people to find a new home. This is primarily due to the large increase in the number of landlords choosing to sell their rental property. Last year, for example, 83% of our clients who entered homelessness had received a notice of termination from their landlord. This is compounded by the lack of alternative housing options.

We see that families are more likely to enter homelessness than other household types, with one-parent families at significantly greater risk, as are those receiving a social welfare payment and reliant on HAP. These households often need additional support and guidance to ensure homelessness is prevented, including representation at the Residential Tenancies Board, RTB, which we provide. We also saw a high proportion of our single clients enter homelessness last year. This may point to the decreasing availability of housing options. It could be argued that, previously, single people were able to access housing that others could not due to fewer restrictions regarding location, fewer considerations regarding childcare and schools, greater mobility and less space requirements than families.

With regard to solutions, it will take a range and mix of solutions over the short, medium and long term to end and resolve homelessness. The Government has taken significant measures in recent months, but the situation generally has deteriorated in a few short years. We are seeing a recent sustained increase in housing provision, but we are also witnessing the fallout from historic undersupply since the 1980s, the overreliance on the private rental sector to provide housing, and a lack of planning to ensure the sector could provide long-term homes for people across their life cycle, especially people who are ageing.

We commend the Government’s efforts in respect of the tenant in situand cost-rental tenant in situschemes and can see these having a positive impact for hundreds of households around the country. The additional 1,300 permitted local authority acquisitions to support the scheme is significant. However, Threshold has been contacted by more than 1,200 private renters with a valid notice of termination so far this year. At present, we are assisting over 2,500 households who have a valid notice of termination. We would need far more than the 1,300 units planned under this scheme to be purchased. We recommend that both these tenant in situprogrammes become central features of housing delivery and part of a long-term shift away from reliance on the private rental sector toward a more sustainable housing model.

The availability of the first home scheme to renters is positive. It is, however, too early to determine the impact this will have, particularly as we await the accompanying legislation. We recognise the time required to deliver new housing and understand there are growing numbers in the pipeline.

That is why it is necessary to focus on the housing that can be provided in the short term to medium term. That means both central and local government need to become more ambitious and creative in the delivery of housing. It will require reform in terms of how local authorities do their housing. We understand the Government may be considering measures to retain landlords in the sector such as reduced tax on rental income. If this is undertaken, we stress the absolute need to tie this reduction to increased security of tenure for tenants. A blanket reduction in tax without any change in behaviour will not guarantee against landlords leaving the sector or ensure increased security of tenure but will come at great expense to the State. We thank you for your time and are happy to answer any questions the committee may have.

Mr. Wayne Stanley:

We thank committee for the invitation today. I am accompanied by Mr. Jonathan Shinnors, to my left, and online by Mr. Dermot Kavanagh. A couple of people have reflected on the fact that we were here in February 2022 to give an update. We have to recognise that we have had a 28% increase in homelessness in the intervening period. As Ms Hayes has outlined, that is really the consequence of the housing crisis. The needs of people in acute housing need are not being met by our housing system. That is what needs to be improved and fixed. We also have to recognise the trauma people experience when they cross the threshold of a homeless service. That is regardless of the professional quality of the services provided by the Simon Communities across Ireland. It is still a trauma. The longer people have to spend in homelessness, the more acute the consequences of that homelessness are for them. That is what we will talk about today. I join with Ms Hayes in saying that prevention is absolutely key, and will add that we need to continue innovating in that space. The tenant in situscheme is a particularly welcome innovation. We will see results from it being rolled out. We are seeing results already, but there needs to be sustained momentum on it. Over time, we have proposed a number of different innovations, including the Simon Homeless Prevention Bill, which received cross-party support. An innovation of Cork Simon has been rehab to home, which supports people to move directly from rehab into homes, as opposed to going back to homeless services where people can relapse. Mid-West Simon is working with local authorities to develop a shared living arrangement to make the most of the accommodation we have. Where people are compatible, shared living arrangements can provide homes quickly. The homeless prevention service in Galway Simon is predicated on traditional homeless services, but also has an element of mentoring. We are working with people to find solutions and to support them working their way through homelessness and even preventing them from entering homelessness in the first instance. In 2022, that service had a 94% success rate for people who engaged early with it. Cork Simon is also developing a pilot diversion project. A number of local authorities already engage in these, where they support people to find alternative accommodation with family or friends. They will look at what other options they have. Cork Simon wants to build on that to make sure that, where supports are needed, they can be put in place to make it more sustainable.

The most recent homeless figures showed an increase in family homelessness, and we do not want to put one month as a barometer or a defining notion. However, it was concerning that the increase in family homelessness was one of the highest we have seen since 2018. The tenant in situscheme is an appropriate response. Hopefully we will see the impact of that in coming months, and we will not see that continue to increase. It was a red flag when we saw it coming up. Certainly, the experience of the Simon Communities is of more families contacting them with a notice to quit. To be clear, our first action is to refer them to the local authority but there are grave concerns around that.

As Mr. McCafferty and Ms Hayes have already covered a lot about the private rental market, I will not go too far into that other than to say that we are seeing a reduction in the total number of HAP properties in the country. One aspect of it is the push to see an increase in HAP rates. That is not necessarily to suppose that if we increase HAP rates, we can chase rents and build up a bigger private rental stock of social housing through HAP. It is important to make sure that people are not falling into arrears because the HAP rates are so far away from market rents. That is something, which has to be constantly kept under review.

We also want to talk about the provision and quality of private emergency accommodation. Again, Ms Hayes has outlined a number of areas and there is ongoing work on this in the national homeless action committee. One thing we are seeing in the context of the crisis is pressure coming on services to provide more bed spaces in existing services. We reflect on where we came from in Covid, which we acknowledge was a particular time. The space provided, and the reduction of the number of people in services created better spaces for people. It also provided a better opportunity to move on from homelessness because they have the capacity. In mid-west in particular we have seen that. People are gaining employment even though they are in emergency accommodation, because they have own-room accommodation. Employment is also a factor we are seeing increase generally. People presenting to homelessness are presenting in employment. That has been seen in Mid-West Simon, Cork Simon and in the case of Galway Simon, in youth services in particular. We are seeing young people able to gain employment even though they are in emergency or supported accommodation. The notable factor there is that employment is no longer a route out of homelessness. Some years ago it would have been.

This is an ongoing discussion across the NGO sector, and we support those calls around section 39 and section 10 funding for homeless services. We are acutely aware in Simon Communities across the country and in other NGOs that we have some degree of a brain drain as the employment market draws professional staff out of our services into the HSE and Tusla. They can do the same work, but with a significant increase in pay. That is because pay parity, which existed prior to 2008 has not been restored for front-line workers in NGOs. We think that really needs to be looked at, first, in recognition of the pressure on services and staff, and second, in recognition of the professionalism and skill needed to support people living through the crisis of homelessness. The cost-of-living crisis, which is affecting everyone is also affecting front-line workers.

To conclude, what I have covered is a whistle-stop tour of some of the issues. We are obviously happy to take questions, and my colleagues have front-line experience to bring the reality home to the committee.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Mr. Stanley. We move to the members now. We will do a seven or eight-minute slot. People should raise their hand if they wish to come in on an answer. I advise Mr. Kavanagh to let me know if he wants to contribute something, as people online sometimes get left out.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome all of our witnesses. They have been with us several times in recent years. I appreciate the engagement, in particular in light of the report, which we published. It is important to continue coming back to that and make sure that actions follow from it. I will return to that in a moment.

I am interested in how Ms Hayes mentioned that on balance we have the same level of presentation and she pointed to the ability to exit homes as being the challenge. What percentage of people in emergency accommodation have an ability to exit it? What I mean by that is what percentage would be eligible for HAP and social housing, for example?

Ms Mary Hayes:

It is a good question. We must bear in mind that Dublin has a different demographic to everywhere else. By its nature, Dublin has high employment rates and it attracts a lot of migrant workers who have employment. There are a lot of EU migrants within Europe who end up in Dublin, in private rented accommodation or staying with friends and family, and when that breaks down they can be in emergency accommodation. There is sometimes a bit of a disconnect there, which we are looking closely at with the Department. If they fall out of work, their rights and entitlements to social housing may not be the same as everybody else. We have a cohort within emergency accommodation who are not eligible today for social housing, HAP or any supports. That said-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How big is that cohort?

Ms Mary Hayes:

It is hard to measure it and be specific. If we were to look at it today it might be 20% of the people in Dublin who do not have a housing application. That said, some of those people will have a housing application in 12 weeks' time and they may have just put one in. Some of those applications may be deferred because they are waiting for residency or different things. It is a fluid and difficult-to-measure situation, therefore, but at any one time we are looking at about 20% of applications of people who are coming in.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There are 2,500 there who may not have eligibility for HAP.

Ms Mary Hayes:

But they could develop it.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I accept that. That is interesting because it is an area of the system we probably have not focused on. Is there a cohort that will have no entitlements?

Ms Mary Hayes:

I do not worry terribly about it in the long term. There is a small cohort who will not have entitlements but most people will go on. Among EU workers, it is easy to establish. Once you are working for us or once one of your family members is working that is it; we do not look for much else other than that. That is easy to establish in Dublin now and it is not a huge area of concern for us. On non-EU migrants, there is virtually no issue because the non-EU migrants we would see all have residency here and are established. That is less of a concern. Those are the ones who would not be eligible right now. We have a small number of homeowners where there is a particular set of circumstances and that is just-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ms Hayes is talking about fewer than 50 or 100 people.

Ms Mary Hayes:

It is irrelevant because it is bread and butter stuff for us. It is stuff we would just work through.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The core thing is those who currently may not have eligibility but who may develop it in the future.

Ms Mary Hayes:

We will work towards that.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Obviously, the supply issues are paramount.

Ms Mary Hayes:

The supply issue is far bigger because you work through those issues and for some of those people, with a little bit of paperwork you would be out the other end of the mixer in 12 weeks. It is not my greatest worry; my greatest worry would be the availability of move-on accommodation.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That brings us on to the report, which talked about establishing an inspectorate for the quality of service provision, both by NGOs and by private operators. Where is DRHE on that? What have its findings been over the period since the report was first published?

Ms Mary Hayes:

It is about objectivity. It must not be us assessing our own services but it must be someone with the qualifications and training to assess it. There are two layers to it. Dublin Fire Brigade does the fire inspections as well as the independent inspectorate so it has done about 38 services or maybe more at this stage, and then the independent inspectorate's reports have set criteria that they test an NGO the same as they test private emergency accommodation. A certain parity is brought to the standard of accommodation that is required in that way.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Are there any that fall into that category of extreme concern?

Ms Mary Hayes:

No. Issues were identified - not issues that would call for accommodation to be closed down - but where, for example, fire remediation works were required. We are working through with those services-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How many of those require fire remediation?

Ms Mary Hayes:

Off the top of my head there are two NGO services that we are working through.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I might come back to that during the next round but I want to touch on the tenantin situscheme. From my experience in our clinic, it has had a transformative impact on people who are in the incredibly devastating position of receiving a notice of termination. Within a matter of weeks they have some comfort that the home they are in, that has been their home for many years, will be their permanent allocation. It is a transformative programme. It does not increase overall supply, which we know, but it increases the security that people have. I want to talk about the limits on that scheme. Also, I am still getting people who are registering as homeless who are not being told about the tenant in situscheme. This is the biggest tool we have to save them. It is a fundamental shift and saving for the State and it provides security. I do not know how somebody can go and register as homeless and not take in that the tenant in situscheme is an option for them. How does that happen?

Ms Mary Hayes:

Can I only talk about Dublin City Council's area?

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Ms Mary Hayes:

It is the same in the four Dublin local authorities but I know the Dublin City Council area inside out. What we did at the beginning was contact customer service, the rental accommodation scheme, RAS, and every point of entry for which someone might ring us on housing. We said that if anybody mentions a notice of termination to bring it up. We would have talked to Mr. McCafferty in Threshold about it because we were concerned. People were contacting NGOs like Threshold but they were not contacting us. To this day, the Deputy is correct that we are still seeing people coming in and not knowing about it. Last week we had someone come in and we rang their landlord on the day to ask them to consider the scheme. Believe it or not, neither the landlord nor the tenant had considered it. If there was one message I would love to get out today it is the fact that the earlier people contact us, the better the chance of us succeeding.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have been dealing with about 15 cases in the office and I have not come across a case where the landlord just is not interested. Is that something that happens?

Ms Mary Hayes:

Yes. Sometimes we get tenants who are not interested in staying and usually that is because they feel it is unsuitable for their needs. We get cases where the landlord is not interested in selling to us or in some cases they already have-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Anecdotally, what is the feedback? Is it in 10% of cases that the landlord is not interested or is it 20% What sort of-----

Ms Mary Hayes:

It is a low percentage. It is somewhere in that range; I would have thought it was about 10% but I do not have those details. Broadly speaking, they are interested.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In the majority of cases the landlord is interested. The only other reason they would not be able to complete the tenant in situscheme would be where the local authority is refusing to purchase. My experience is that this is unusual but people report that the local authorities are declining the tenantin situscheme. Is that something that has been minimised as well:?

Ms Mary Hayes:

It is minimal and it might only be in a case where something would fail basic standards. It would be rare.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Household mismatches are not something the DRHE-----

Ms Mary Hayes:

We have agreed a protocol between the four Dublin local authorities so it is within the scope of an extra bedroom or a bedroom less. If your household size is too big we will allow you to go straight on the transfer list and then you can move from there. In that case we will allow one extra bedroom of flexibility. Four-bedroom properties are so precious to us that we cannot give one to someone with a two-bedroom need. It is just not possible and we would refuse that.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for their presentations. I want to acknowledge the significant volume of work being done by our guests and by their teams in all of the organisations. While it is those people who are at risk of or experiencing homelessness who have the most difficult job, the staff of our guests, particularly front-line staff in the local government and NGO sectors, have to work with those people and take a lot of that significant stress home. It is important that the committee acknowledges that and thanks our guests.

Mr. Stanley mentioned that since the Simon Communities of Ireland were last here, homelessness has increased by 38%. For those of us who have been here a little bit longer than when we published our last housing report, we did a homeless report in the previous Dáil and the figures are almost double that in a short period. The concern I have is that every time we come to talk about this, things are worse, despite the fact that we have huge amounts of good work ongoing across the board. I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news but the Residential Tenancies Board has just published the latest eviction notice figures for the quarter of this year and they are the highest in the last three quarters, with 4,753 eviction notices.

My first question is on that new information. Ms Hayes rightly said there is a consistent level of presentations and effectively what is a collapse in preventions and exits into the private rental sector. Clearly the information we have received today will make that much more difficult in the time ahead.

Can Ms Hayes give us a sense of how close to capacity the Dublin Region Homeless Executive is with regard to bed spaces? What does she think the impact of the latest wave of eviction notices will be?

With respect to the Simon Communities of Ireland, these questions might be for Mr. Stanley's service providers. I notice in the Irish Examinertoday that the Cork Simon Community is saying it has never been as bad. Can people give us a sense of how close we are to capacity in different areas? How concerned are they that the increasing level of eviction notices and lack of private sector supply will mean that the coming months will be more difficult than what we have seen to date?

Ms Mary Hayes:

Regarding current capacity, it is a very tight ceiling. We are just about making it with regard to single capacity. For families, we are reliant on commercial hotels. Therefore, while we do not leave a family out, the fact that we are using commercial hotels would probably signal that we do not have enough family accommodation capacity. We are continually sourcing it. That falls under Mr. Durkan's brief. We pretty much have an open tender at this stage for emergency accommodation to bring in new emergency accommodation all the time. We just about manage. Regarding what I think the impact will be, I guess for me the impact is that everything we should be spending money on is housing and not emergency accommodation. I think it is a point of agreement between all of us. I am concerned. I believe we will find accommodation for families, come what may. I believe we will do our absolute best with single accommodation. There will be pinch points. I feel there is a strong need to focus on what we will do for housing in the next six months or year.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have two supplementary questions before I go to Simon. I know that in a number of locations in Dublin, additional beds have been put into rooms that are already being shared. I am not criticising that decision. One has to provide accommodation for people. How widespread is that to increase the number of beds in particular facilities?

Regarding move-on accommodation, on one hand, we are now seeing less private rental through homeless HAP. The witnesses are indicating that the enhanced leasing take-up in Dublin has been weak. Have there been discussions or should there be a discussion about replicating what the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and the OPW have done to use emergency procurement and planning powers and new building technologies to try to fast-track high-quality, permanent modular homes to provide that additional supply? When I say modular homes, I mean above the existing social housing targets. Is that really where we should be going?

Ms Mary Hayes:

The first point was about shared accommodation. We did that in conjunction with the HSE, gradually over time. When the Covid restrictions lifted, we went back to what capacity we were paying for. We operate strictly within the guidelines for emergency accommodation. It is difficult and we know that shared accommodation for anybody is difficult. It is not desirable. In Dublin, we would be quite constrained if we did not use emergency accommodation. I know how difficult it is for people. It was done over a period. We have gradually brought back up anything that was reduced during Covid. In some cases, we have reduced overall capacity, so even if we had agreed terms for 100 beds at one point, sometimes we have not been able to get back up to that capacity of 100 because we have lowered the capacity on the advice of the HSE regarding infection control and standards.

Regarding whether we should replicate what is happening, I will support anything that will deliver housing. I worry about whether the same supply teams are going to be resourced and whether there will be a different result just because new things have been added for them to do. Anything that delivers supply will have my vote.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the witnesses from Simon address the regions?

Dr. Dermot Kavanagh:

From the perspective of Cork Simon, our services are under intense pressure at the moment. A bit like Ms Hayes was saying, the reasons are twofold. There is an increase in the number of new presentations to services because prevention is not what it used to be, if I can put it that way. There is a greater difficulty in finding exits for people. Looking at the situation in the south west, we have seen a decrease in the number of homeless people in Kerry but a substantial rise in Cork, year-on-year. The number of people in emergency accommodation in Kerry decreased by about 54%. About one third of the decrease can be accounted for by tenancies in the Housing First programme in Kerry, which we are involved in. Similarly, in Cork city and county, we have 68 Housing First tenancies and those people would not have been going anywhere without that particular innovation. It has been very successful, with a tenancy sustainment rate of over 90%. If we did not have it, we would need another shelter of at least the size of Anderson's Quay in Cork.

Not everybody qualifies for Housing First and there is a need for innovations to provide housing for other groups who are homeless. We heard Mr. Stanley mention some of them. In Cork Simon, we have a growing number of people who we have to regretfully call the working homeless. They are people who are in employment, which no longer provides a route out of homelessness. Maybe my colleague from Limerick might say a bit about this. There is a lot of sense in looking at alternatives for people who are in work rather than using shelters such as ours, which is primarily focused on people with exceptionally high support needs. Where people have lower support needs, there can be innovative schemes such as that in Limerick, where a shared housing approach can be used.

As well as that, we are looking at shelter diversion. I mentioned Housing First as one of the successful initiatives in ensuring that homeless levels are not even worse than what they are. There is always room to look at what other countries are doing. Housing First is an example of a policy transfer from the United States and Finland. Supported shelter diversion is another initiative in the United States where one provides various types of support to people at the point at which they turn up at an emergency shelter to see if there is a safe alternative available for them and whether one can take a few simple steps that might prevent somebody from coming into the shelter in the first place. Where that has been done in Connecticut, presentations have been decreased by 17%.

We are deep in a crisis. The way out of the crisis ultimately involves the provision of additional housing. Many more units are coming down the track. In Cork, around 2,500 units are in planning and construction and otherwise coming down the track. If we take a triage approach and put as much as possible towards people, especially long-term homeless people, we can take pressure off the system. It is striking that of the 526 people who availed of Cork Simon's emergency shelter last year, 50 of them, which is 9%, accounted for 50% of the bed nights, which is 11,000 bed nights. Some 32 beds were occupied by long-term homeless people each night. Clearly, if we had even more beds via Housing First and similar schemes, we could prioritise those people for whatever housing is available, free up a lot of space and take a lot of pressure off services. As Ms Hayes said, it is prevention, housing-led, and doing what one has to do in the middle with emergency accommodation.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sorry. I have to interrupt Dr. Kavanagh there because we are well over time on that slot. Mr. Shinnors probably wants to speak but I will have to bring him in in the next round because I have to move on now.

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses and all their front-line workers who do so much work in this area. Mr. Stanley's call for better recognition of that was heard loud and clear. I am sure there will be pre-budget statements on that. I would be happy to support those calls. Ms Hayes clearly outlined the issue for us here in Dublin with regard to presentations being steady but exits from homelessness decreasing. This means that overall homelessness figures are effectively increasing as a result of that backlog.

The lack of rental properties available right now is perhaps part of that root cause. It highlights to all of us the importance of delivering new homes of all tenures, and delivering them as quickly as possible.

It was great to hear the representatives of all three organisations talk about how positive the tenant in situscheme has been. It is not necessarily new, but it is new this time round, and new at this scale. I would be interested in hearing from all three organisations if they have any feedback on how it could be improved or streamlined. Different local authorities are probably adopting different ways of dealing with it. I do not know if Ms Hayes can give me any indication as to how long things are actually taking in Dublin in different local authorities. She spoke about homes that are underutilised. I am getting a lot of queries from people who are living in homes that are technically overcrowded, but they are living there very happily and feel their needs are satisfied. They are therefore disqualified from the tenant in situ scheme. I wonder if the witnesses can give us any advice on that. I know it is a particularly tricky one, because we do not want people living in overcrowded homes either.

Threshold has called for the Government to be more ambitious and creative. Do the representatives of the organisation have any ideas they would like to put in the mix?

The rehab to home scheme mentioned by Mr. Stanley from Simon Communities Ireland sounds really interesting. It is an issue that comes up again and again for me in South Dublin County Council. I would be really interested to learn a bit more about it. We have nearly five minutes. I ask the witnesses to start with the tenant in situscheme and then to respond to the questions directed to Threshold and Simon.

Ms Mary Hayes:

On the tenant in situscheme, in Dublin we have realised that the key ingredient to making it work is the ability to be adaptable to some extent. Being overly rigid with the scheme means that we could be potentially creating a much worse situation for someone than we intend. On overcrowding, I agree that for many families the alternative is that they will be in one room all together in emergency accommodation. Within reason, we would be open to keeping them and doing the tenant in situacquisition if they accept that is okay for them, then allowing them to go straight on the transfer list immediately, and not waiting for the two years. They would still be on the band two transfer list in Dublin, with which the Deputy will be familiar, with a priority for overcrowding. That said, it does not move quickly. I would not want to oversell the likelihood of how quickly someone will get a transfer either. It is about being adaptable and flexible. The last time we were here we discussed the tenant in situscheme wearing a different hat. We are trying to manage the inter-local authority boundary as well, because it is creating some wrinkles.

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is there any white smoke on that inter-local authority boundary work?

Ms Mary Hayes:

A protocol has been agreed in Dublin. We have worked out who is doing what, and we will see how it will take shape over the next while.

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it possible for that protocol to be circulated to the committee members?

Ms Mary Hayes:

Yes.

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That would be great. I thank Ms Hayes. Do the representatives from Threshold want to respond?

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly:

We have had positive feedback on the tenant in situscheme. We are starting to see a bit more take-up on it, and some of the local authorities are ahead of the game. The only negative feedback we have received is that is not always clear how an individual goes about getting onto the scheme or who they contact in the local authority. Sometimes, if an adviser has someone come in who is suitable for the scheme, they do not know who to go to first. That can be a bit difficult, but as the local authorities get more involved in it, the process will become smoother. We are looking forward to seeing the cost rental element of it start to pick up as well.

On ambition and creativity, some schemes are already in existence. The vacant property refurbishment grant, which runs alongside the ready to build scheme, has a target of 2,000 homes for 2025. That seems quite small, considering what we need to achieve. It is across all these different types of schemes where we can bring housing back in. The vacant properties are houses that hopefully can be brought into use much quicker than a new-build development.

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Targets really are the issue. It is not that there are more creative ideas that we should be looking at.

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly:

The idea of procurement was mentioned earlier. I know that local authorities struggle with compulsory purchase orders. Perhaps something like that could be looked at going forward. We hear a lot about vacant properties and sites. It seems quite difficult to determine what degree of vacancy is out there. At least where a local authority has identified a site or a property that is sitting vacant in the long term, it could go ahead and start the process of procuring that property. I would suggest initiatives like that, and the possibility of using new technologies or builds, as mentioned earlier.

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Do the witnesses from the Simon Communities want to comment?

Dr. Dermot Kavanagh:

I will be brief regarding rehab to home. It is an idea that is currently in development. We run an addiction support and aftercare service. That has been successful, over the years, in developing a pathway from emergency accommodation into addiction treatment. In the traditional fashion, we provided aftercare housing as a transitional option, with the next step being the resident getting a home of their own. The experience of Housing First has been very successful and there is no greater advocate for it than me. However, it has become one of the only exits from homelessness available to people. It is focused on people who have significant mental health and addiction issues. If you are on Housing First, you have a guarantee of getting the housing support you need. If you enter treatment, it is much more precarious. You might get into an aftercare house and you might get stuck there. A lot of people are stuck in aftercare housing. Following Housing First principles, the idea is to have a similar housing option for people when they leave treatment both to encourage people to take up the treatment and to ensure they do not end up back in homeless emergency services. The idea is to provide the support they need after that, but not to have the housing contingent on sobriety. Those on the scheme should have the same tenancy rights as anybody else. If they have a slip or difficulties in maintaining their sobriety, it will not lead to their eviction. That is it in a nutshell. As I have said, it is an idea in development. We hope to pilot it as soon as we can.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have allowed everybody else to have a minute or two longer, so I will extend that to Deputy Higgins as well, if she wants to come back in.

Mr. Wayne Stanley:

The shared living arrangement was mentioned. I might refer to Mr. Shinnors to comment on that.

Mr. Jonathan Shinnors:

In collaboration with our local authority in Limerick, we have secured accommodation, whether three- or four-bedroom houses, in order to facilitate exit out of our emergency accommodation, where we have a predominantly older cohort. We have a cohort that are in employment. The Clann Nua model has been explored and we are currently adopting it. It involves a long lead-in time and intensive case management to identify and support individuals that could manage living in shared accommodation. That has proven quite successful. We have high levels of retention and continued employment of those living in the units. The individuals engage in their communities with assistance from our community activation programme, which seeks out meaningful pastimes, further education and other activities to sustain residents in their accommodation.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Mr. Shinnors. I call Deputy Duffy.

Ms Mary Hayes:

In the DHRE, our focus is on our own statutory duties, by and large. However, where we can assist our colleagues in the International Protection Accommodation Services, IPAS, we do so. For example, if we have a building that is not going to be used or is not suitable for us, we will pass it on to IPAS. On the question of whether we have the capacity or scope to accommodate IP applicants, we simply do not.

Dr. Walter Stanley:

To be very clear, it has not. One of the things we must recognise is that some of the resources of local authorities have been utilised, as Ms Hayes has just outlined, to support the relevant Department to try to find additional accommodation. It might have put some additional pressure on providing emergency accommodation but with even that, it is not there.

In terms of people experiencing homelessness, there is in my view and from what I have seen from talking to the Simon Communities across the country, there is nobody who is in homeless emergency accommodation because we took in people from Ukraine. I can put it as strongly and as clearly as that.

Mr. John Durkan:

Any accommodation options and support by our colleagues in IPAS would not ordinarily fit the traditional housing stock or be properly suitable for HAP and, therefore, by default, it has not affected us in terms of exits and progressions. Anything that we are not using in Dublin we are happy to refer or redirect to IPAS to help its accommodation requirements and tackle it needs and challenges.

Ms Mary Hayes:

In terms of what we have seen on the housing list, yes. Naturally, it is a sign of a healthy and thriving democracy. We have almost full employment in this country and many people come into the country to work so, undoubtedly, a strain will be put on resources. A lot of that work is often based in urban areas. The areas under the most strain in terms of housing are urban areas. That is my own take on the issue but I do not know.

Mr. John-Mark McCafferty:

My geography degree will come in useful now. There were 8 million people on this island in the mid-19th century. There is a challenge of physical planning. It has not been a strong point of this State but there has been unprecedented growth in the past 25 to 30 years, which would have put pressure on any Administration.

There is a real challenge for both central and local government to respond not just from the point of view of housing but also from the point of view of public transport and wider infrastructure. There is certainly no shortage of land but the question is how do all of these things come together in terms of land, housing, planning and agencies that have land. The various statutory agencies, if they are surplus to requirement, want to maximise the surplus from them for their financial health or that of that Department. There is a wider challenge.

I come from Scotland, which had a population of 5 million when I left in the mid-1990s and it is still 5 million. Ireland has a vibrant economy and society. There are stresses and strains. We could all do better in terms of physical planning and a joined-up approach at a local level, higher densities and some very serious investment in infrastructure, especially public transport infrastructure. All of those things have to come together to make that work. On the idea that Ireland is full, it is far from it; it is about using resources in the smartest way.

Mr. John-Mark McCafferty:

What I say next comes from a background that informs what we do, our northern European counterparts show us how that might be done. The Netherlands is quite similar to Ireland in many ways but has a much higher population density. I would look at Denmark, the other Scandinavian countries and northern Germany regarding density, planning and the appropriateness of whether something should be co-ordinated at local authority level. Ireland has pretty small administrative units that are often tasked to do very large structural tasks and sometimes that is a challenge. We have, through the European Union, many good examples of integrated development. There are very good examples in Ireland of integrated development such as Adamstown and some of the stuff that has been done in the south and north docklands. There are indigenous examples and no shortage of examples elsewhere in northern Europe.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the delegations from Threshold, the Simon Communities of Ireland and the DRHe for their attendance and time. More importantly, I thank them for their strong advocacy work. Not a day goes by without me hearing on the national airwaves or reading in the media about the advocacy work done by the organisations. The organisations do very many good things but advocacy is one of their strongest strengths from our point of view in Leinster House, which tends to be a bubble and convince itself that it always does the right thing, and tends to seek to convince itself that it is on track to deliver and address the problems but clearly has failed abysmally on many fronts.

We, as a committee, work collectively and collaboratively but tease out issues. I genuinely mean that the organisations present are the strongest advocates on this issue, for which I thank them. Their work is valuable and they fill a space does not happen in many other jurisdictions or democracies. The organisations have stepped up to the plate with confidence and skills. The organisations are partners with Government, which is great. We need to recognise that the work done by the organisations is of great importance and I recognise that work.

I wish to point out the following for the benefit of anyone who is not in the bubble of Leinster House. The remit of the DRHE covers Dublin City Council, Fingal County Council, Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council and South Dublin County Council. The witnesses might outline how their organisations are resourced and explain the synergies between local authorities.

Recently, a person contacted my office to say they had wanted to sign up to receive emergency HAP as opposed to ordinary HAP but were told by someone in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council to get on a bus and into Dublin City Council. The person's request was not received well in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council but perhaps that was a one-off experience. While we might have a centralised synergy and shared service, it is important that people understand that their local authority is their local authority, and local authorities have statutory responsibilities and functions and, therefore, it is important that we meet them locally with services where we can.

Ms Hayes mentioned that there is no-one over 70 years on the DRHE's housing list. A woman in Ranelagh contacted me, then I contacted the DRHE's housing department and within 24 hours a person called to see the woman. She now happily resides in a lovely studio or bungalow unit in Ranelagh and what a place. It is the first in time in her life that this 78-year-old woman that she ever had a place that she could call her home. She contacted me and asked me to call to see her. She told me she was so proud of the scheme and the officials in the Dublin City Council. She also told me that the first time she had to share bedsit accommodation with eight or nine other women who were all aged in the 70s and all were threatened with eviction to get out of what was deplorable accommodation. One has to ask how that had not come to anyone's attention. However, this is a good news story.

That woman is now in a house. It was all turned around, Garda checks and everything, in 14 days I think. I commend the DRHE on this and will Ms Hayes share how she deals with that circumstance? I think it is great.

We cannot but face to up to the reality that mental health and addiction is a huge part of the issue of homelessness. I am not quite convinced as I walk the streets of Dublin every day and meet people who tell me they are homeless.They are tapping into services but really see no future and are being pushed on and shunned by society, generally, and the communities they live in. They do not have the same supports. When teases down and talk to some of them they have come from State institutions. They were reared in institutions of the State and were let down on many fronts over many years. Somehow there is not quite the empathy and understanding of where they have come from and there is a real niche there. I do not have the answer but it clearly on our streets. Addiction and mental health is a huge issue in the bigger picture of homelessness and I do not know how that is being addressed.

Finally, relating to the DRHE, there is the issue of the tenant in situscheme. We know from figures released by Dublin City Council that 18 properties were submitted for final offers and have gone sale agreed. I read a report that states there are more than 200 properties in which tenants are renting, according to the latest figures. This is really promising and we know the Government has only committed to 1,500 of these units as part of the suite of approaches they want to address in terms of housing. It is an amazing scheme and clearly we need more money and more resources so Ms Hayes might touch on that.

Threshold said that 50% of the notices of terminations outside of property sale were found to be invalid. I thought that was a really important point and can Ms O'Reilly expand on that?

My final question is for all of the witnesses. There is a great fanfare about the youth hopelessness strategy. It had 27 distinct actions. I printed off a copy of it before I came to the meeting. It talks about preventing young people from entering homelessness, improving the experience of young people in emergency accommodation and assisting young people to exit homelessness. It may be planned, but not a lot has happened. There is a summary of the actions and there are 27 actions planned so will the Simon Communities of Ireland comment on that?

Ms Mary Hayes:

I thank Senator for his kind words on that case in Ranelagh. On the resourcing of the four local authorities in the Dublin region, it would be fair to say that we are reasonably resourced for what we are doing. The issue for us is we would love not to spend that money on emergency accommodation and to be spending it on supporting people into tenancies or supporting them from becoming homeless instead. The issue is not necessarily the envelope of money it is where it is going.

I could not agree more with the Senator in terms of giving people a local response in terms of homelessness. We have to be mindful of that in terms of the four Dublin local authorities because we deliver shared services. We are working on it, even in terms of the tenantin situ, that we are not giving people the impression that it is not here so do not come here, go over there. We are trying to get our message out a bit more clearly to people. Homeless HAP is managed centrally. The decision is made locally as to whether someone is suitable or eligible for it because we look at all the measures where possible if someone is at risk of homelessness. People do not need to come into us anymore to apply. There is an online application and a person would only need to come in to us if there was a literacy issue or something like that. Other than that, everything can be done online. Insofar as possible, if people can be dealt with locally, we are big fans of that as well.

As for the older person's scheme, it was a common-sense scheme that came up when we were doing our scheme in Dublin City Council at the time because for the first time, back then in 2017 and 2018, we started to see people coming from the private rented sector or who were coming up to retirement and had never had a housing application. That is how is started; the Senator has seen it work.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is great.

Ms Mary Hayes:

It is a very solid scheme and I would recommend it to any council. There are target groups. It if difficult to pick out target groups. Young people leaving care is another target group for us. We work with particular AHBs that buy properties particularly for young people leaving care. They are prioritised through the young people leaving care steering committees we work with through Tusla.

I might leave the question about mental health and homelessness to my NGO colleagues. We are conscious of the work of the HSE in terms of trying to improve the response to mental health and homelessness. It is recognised that there has been a deficit and work is ongoing there. I also commend some of the area of work that have made a difference in terms of mental health. Housing First in particular has worked with some very complex mental health cases that we have known as rough sleepers for many years in the Dublin region who have been tucked away and hidden away in caves in very out of the way spots, not necessarily in town, and who are very isolated. It is an absolutely amazing to see Housing First work with those people.

As for the tenant in situ scheme, I could tell the Senator all day long it is such a pleasure to have a tangible thing to offer someone when they come in. Prevention cannot just be talk; we need tangible tools to make it work.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will take one more answer if anyone wishes to offer one.

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly:

I can speak to the tenancy terminations. As can be seen from our opening statement, Threshold works with more than 2,500 people at present who have a notice of termination. We find that approximately 50% of notices are invalid and, in those instances, the Threshold adviser is able to advise the person whether they must move out on foot of this notice and what action they can take to keep the tenancy going. However, when it comes to the notices for sale, we find that approximately 60% of those are actually valid and there is very little that can be done to keep the person in that home unless they are able to avail of the tenant in situ scheme. Where it is for other issues such as rent arrears or tenant breaches, we can work with the tenant and the landlord to resolve those. We have seen a significant increase in the number of terminations coming into Threshold.

Mark Wall (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for attending and, as been said by other committee members, for the work they all do. It is important to many people when we look at the numbers that were announced recently. I have two specific questions. The last time Ms Hayes was before the committee we spoke about people from Dublin moving to my good county in Kildare and there was an issue regarding them qualifying for the tenant in situ scheme. Has that improved? Is it now happening? The Minister confirmed to the committee at our previous meeting that it would happen and will happen so could Ms Hayes comment because it is a huge issue for a lot of people, particularly for those who come from Dublin? They are very welcome to come to County Kildare at all times but unfortunately a good few of them find themselves in homeless situations. They have come to me and to other public representatives and were told by the local authority that the scheme was not up and running at that stage. Will Ms Hayes confirm whether it is up and running now?

The second question is more specific to Threshold. I came across a couple of incidents lately relating to caravan parks where people have been given notices to quit. The recognition of that notice to quit seems to be lost somewhere, whether it is correct or not, but people are finding it difficult to negotiate with their local authority that they have actually received a correct notice to quit. Is there legislation to cover notices to quit from caravan parks? Are people who are presenting to Threshold experiencing this problem? Is there a solution for those people who have contacted me in the past couple of weeks?

Ms Mary Hayes:

I can confirm that the tenant in situ scheme is definitely working in Dublin, which was not the Senator's question.

Mark Wall (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No.

Ms Mary Hayes:

We are very close to all local authorities agreeing to a inter-local authority protocol. The protocol is there, the draft was there, there was a meeting this morning but I was not there so I cannot actually answer for sure. I know that we were very close to agreeing it. Some of that has just been the working out of who is doing what, who is doing the estate management checks, how it is working and some level of balance between how it is operating. However, I am very confident that, following this morning's meeting, it has probably been agreed.

Mark Wall (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Excellent. That is good news.

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly:

Regarding notices of termination for people in caravan parks a couple of cases have come in and the advisers have looked at them with our legal officer to determine on what grounds and under what legislation that would fall. If Senator Wall would like to follow up with us after I can put him in touch with the legal officer on that because there could be many instances and different bits of legislation applying or there may very well be gaps. It is something that it quite new that has come to our attention.

Mark Wall (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is the reason I raised it. It is something new that has come to my attention. Identifying the legislation that is governing this is causing me a problem with local authorities. I will contact Threshold. I know local authorities have also been in contact with Threshold but it is just to come back on that.

My final question may have been answered. I will put on record, as I did when I previously spoke about homelessness, the terrific work staff in Kildare County Council do. Where are we with outreach at present? I know of families that have now been offered accommodation two or three counties away, at distances where they cannot accommodate their school issues, including getting their children to school every morning. Again, is there co-operation whereby someone from Dublin will go to a place in Dublin rather than, say, someone from south Kildare going to Dublin? Is that co-operation there when it comes to homeless services? Is it just a fact that people will go to the hotel that may be available or, more importantly, has the space to take in a family? It is causing a lot of stress for families when they are offered accommodation that is 50, 60 and, in some cases, 70 or 80 miles away from where they are, where their base is, and where their family supports may or may not be. Most importantly, however, the school system for their children is causing them a lot of stress. Is that improving or is it still the case, given the huge numbers involved, that people are taking what they can get?

Ms Mary Hayes:

I will be honest with the Senator; it is pretty limited. There are limits to what can be offered to people as regards what is available on that day, depending on family size. We could sometimes get a family of two or a family of ten. We are limited. We work with Mr. Ollie Brady in Kildare County Council on specific cases and, if anything is available, we have some co-operation and flexibility. We are acutely conscious that it is not easy for families. There is great difficulty in getting somewhere that is close to their schools. We try our best in Dublin. We are relatively lucky that we can place people close to a Luas or transport link, at least, but it is a real issue.

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for all the information they provided since the previous round of questions. I will touch on the matter of the 50% of notices to quit that are invalid with the Threshold representatives. When they work with clients, do they find it is a short-term fix in that they are buying them a little extra time? Do they find they are able to resolve the issue in some of the cases?

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly:

That is where we find ourselves now. A number of years ago, where we found notices to quit were invalid, the tenancy continued in most of those cases. We are now seeing, particularly with so many properties being for sale, and landlords having a genuine intention to sell, that once they realise the notice is invalid, it is corrected and a new notice is issued. It is a buying of time, in many cases, unfortunately.

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What percentage is it?

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly:

I would have to check.

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No problem. I will stick with the Threshold representatives. I love what they said about requiring the reduced tax on rental income to be linked to tenure. I would love to hear a little more about their suggestions as to how that can happen from a practical perspective.

Mr. John-Mark McCafferty:

It is not easy. The tax code has various tax breaks and incentives, which are tied to a particular action that can be taken. Sometimes, that can be done over the long term. Generally speaking, tax breaks are not necessarily a great form of policy. However, in this instance, given there is such a reliance on small landlords, the unfairness of the tax treatment of larger institutional investors compared with those small landlords who house the vast majority of people we are assisting, and positive sounds from the Government with regard to tax reform, ways need to be found to tie certain types of behaviours regarding longer leases with the tax code. Whether that is something that is redeemed after so many years could be looked at. It is probably something that might need to be looked at along with some wider issues, such as energy efficiency in the private rental sector. As we rely so heavily as a society on smaller landlords to house such a large part of our population, this is one area where tax breaks are justified, but they need to be focused.

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Simon representatives referenced in their opening statement the issue of renters being bigger now that it was initially. The increase in rents and HAP staying static, to some degree, is probably not helping matters. Will they talk to me a little about the percentage of people they find who are ending up homeless who are renters? Do they think that is part of the reason they are ending up homeless?

Mr. Wayne Stanley:

The big driver of late has been landlords selling up. To answer the Deputy's first question, I can get the percentage. We will work it out but I do not have the figures in front of me. It is definitely combined with the cost-of-living crisis. We are seeing that people will go above and beyond to pay their rent and leave other things behind, which puts them under additional pressure. It is the household package that is driving the unsustainability of the accommodation. The increase in HAP would bridge some of that gap.

There is an additional concern in that space, although HAP is falling away as a solution, which Ms Hayes outlined very well. The other aspect of it is we are supporting families, in particular, and individuals who are topping up. Even though they are getting the homeless HAP or whatever it is in the different local authorities, and are topping up, that already puts them on a path to unsustainability. The usual case is landlords are only following the legislation, including in rent pressure zones, but rents are increasing by 4% each year so it is getting further and further away from people's incomes, especially if they are on social welfare payments.

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If somebody is on HAP and receives a notice to quit, and part of that person's circumstances is that they are in rent arrears, is it possible to move from HAP to homeless HAP in that scenario to assist with financial distress and try to maintain that tenancy?

Mr. Wayne Stanley:

That would be taken on a local authority by local authority basis. If somebody were to present to Ms Hayes and if an increase, in the form of a move to homeless HAP, would save the tenancy, we can be fairly sure that would happen. Often, however, we are talking about cases where it is beyond the top-up. It is not that there is unwillingness on the part of the local authority. It is purely that our private rental market is unsustainably expensive.

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ms O'Reilly was shaking her head. She might have a different perspective.

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly:

I have just not seen it happen that often where someone was given homeless HAP in order to keep a tenancy. It is usually-----

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Because they are homeless.

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly:

Even if the tenancy is at risk, and a renter is still five or six weeks out from the end of it, and an increase in HAP would assist, I have not seen it happen often. It is probably very much a case-by-case situation and requires that strong bit of advocacy.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Higgins was under time. I appreciate that.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will pick up where Deputy Higgins left off. It is important for people to know that separate to the homeless HAP, there is that discretionary uplift in financial hardship cases. Outside of Dublin, the two are not differentiated. Strictly speaking, it is not permissible to go from HAP to homeless HAP in the one property but that discretion can absolutely be given. That tool is there. If it can be more generous than 30%, then all the better, if it stops somebody becoming homeless.

I have a few follow-on questions. Like others, I welcome the increase in applications by landlords for the tenant in situ scheme but I will put out a couple of notes of caution at this stage, which is not to disagree at all with the comments anybody else has made. Almost 10,000 notices to quit have been issued by landlords since January of last year on the grounds of sale.

Even with the very significant increased publicity around tenant in situin the run-up to the ending of the ban on no-fault evictions, there are still only a few hundred - there are just over 300 in Dublin city and 200 in my local authority etc. The number of landlords selling their properties who are applying is still very low. In my local authority, almost 20% of applications by landlords have been rejected by the council. We are waiting for data to get a sense of why that is. The sooner our committee gets the report the Minister promised he would give us, the better. It will give visibility State-wide of the number of landlords who applied, the number of properties refused and rejected and will provide visibility and various stages of the process. My concern is the length of time applications are taking. I know it is a complicated process and is not straightforward.There is a survey of the property, there are valuation, legal considerations and conveyancing. I hear from some landlords a concern that it takes an exceptionally long time. Apologies to Ms Hayes but she is the only person who can talk directly about the tenant in situ scheme. I know it is only Dublin city and not the State or the other Dublin local authorities. Will she give the committee a sense of processing times? While it is very positive that there are 387 applications in the system, that does not mean 387 applications will eventually be closed. I hope they all are and will prevent those families from becoming homeless. Will she provide some additional information on processing times?

The next question I wish to ask is about overholding. There does not seem to be any indication in the latest Residential Tenancies Board, RTB data - although it is too early - around overholding. The number of notices of termination for breach of contract has remained broadly in line with the previous two quarters. From Threshold's point of view, what is it hearing on the ground about overholding, particularly in the most recent period of time? Will Ms Hayes or her team share their views on that? I would be interested to hear them. I have some other questions but to give the presenters more time we can deal with those first.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We can have a subsequent round.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have a long list of questions. The Chair does not need to worry.

Ms Mary Hayes:

Regarding tenant in situ, there is a greater number of notices than actual tenantsin situ. We are seeing that and saw it in the April figures in the Dublin region. We will see some people entering who received a notice of termination for reason of landlord sale. We are monitoring closely why they did not go through and why we were not able to pick them up. We go back to each local authority; we want this to work. We must examine why prevention did not work in that case.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I apologise for cutting across. Does that mean the DRHE has some visibility on the picture across Dublin city and county?

Ms Mary Hayes:

Only if we have to place someone - it could be in my own local authority. Sometimes, I ask my staff why this person from Dublin City Council is coming in with a landlord notice of termination and why were we not successful on a tenant in situ. We are examining that internally. There will be a different issue in reporting. It is a key issue for us regarding why that prevention is not working. On length of time, I think when we were before the committee previously, we optimistically said it could be four months. In reality, that would be a very clean one. It is a bit like any sale to get to sale agreed and conveyancing and related issues. The valuation process is relatively straightforward. We are waiting a couple of weeks for an inspection at the moment. We can prioritise them if we feel there is a priority case and the clock is ticking against us. In Dublin City Council, we have a high focus and are keen on cases in which there are more children in the family, a disability or an age vulnerability. We try to prioritise those cases first. By and large, once we get in contact with the landlord, we reassure them, tell them what it will take and try to give them a sense that it will take about four months if all goes well. There can be delays when it comes to conveyancing, title documents and legal matters. In some cases, we have got to the point where they will not accept the valuation. That does happen - I am not trying to oversell it. More people accept the valuation than do not but it can happen that you go that far and it will not be accepted.

On overholding, I will say very little other than that we see it. Sometimes it is by consent. For example, someone will tell us they are looking to come into emergency accommodation, that everything is gone and they are overholding. If it is a case that we do not have the accommodation size to meet their need on a particular night and we can contact the landlord we ask them to hold them for another day or two until we get something. That happens. People voluntarily choose to overhold. I will hand over to my colleagues who are more familiar with that.

Mr. John-Mark McCafferty:

I mentioned that in the first quarter of 2022, the number of clients overholding with whom we were working was 303. The number for the first three months of this year was 475, an increase of 57%. If you break that down into household type for the first quarter of this year, 125 were single-person households, 49 were couple households, 138 were lone-parent families, 148 were two-parent families and it is unknown for 15. There was a similar proportion in the first quarter of last year. That gives a sense of the demographic. We tend to work with people who are overholding longer because of the nature of their pathway. We do not advise people to overhold because we advise them on and according to the legislation. However, it is understandable that many families and individuals have few or no options for alternative accommodation in the market or access to social rent or even cost rent, notwithstanding the fact that there is an increase in supply now and housing is coming through the pipeline. We have seen an increase in the phenomenon of overholding. We advise as best we can in that circumstance.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A concern some of us has is, if the number of people with notices increases, the number of people overholding will increase and emergency accommodation options may become more limited. It already takes the RTB, on average, four months to deal with adjudication in an overholding case. Is there a concern that the length of decision-making could increase because the RTB itself has a challenge in staffing and processing times?

Mr. John-Mark McCafferty:

Yes. It is a risk. We are seeing a gradual throughput of notices of termination cases. It has not been a wave. We did not predict a wave-----

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Absolutely.

Mr. John-Mark McCafferty:

-----but we predicted it would be a challenge and it indeed is in terms of overall volumes. The overall volumes were high regardless but they are staggered due to the sequencing of the notices. We have a sense that these processes are taking longer and the number of processes is increasing. We are then spending longer on those complex overholding cases. There is pressure on the system.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am interested to hear the views of Threshold, the Simon Communities of Ireland and that of Ms Hayes's team on the following. Like Threshold, most of us who understand how notices of termination work were not predicting a "tsunami" or a "wave" - some of the more colourful language some Members of the House chose. There is a concern that, given all of the information we have, that challenge will increase more significantly than perhaps some of the average figures which Ms Hayes rightly outlined and were a feature of the last year or two. I know it is hard to predict but the witness organisations are in the uncomfortable world of trying to forward plan for these crises. Is there a view, given all the information they have in front of them right now, that we could be looking at a significant rate of increase above and beyond where we have been up to this point in the last 12 or 24 months?

Mr. John-Mark McCafferty:

It would be stark. It is difficult to say because of the staggered nature of it and the longevity of certain cases. We are monitoring it closely and there is always a concern about capacity. It is an ongoing concern but it is perhaps a little too early to say one way or the other about the scale of the need.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can I ask Mr. Stanley for a response, please?

Mr. Wayne Stanley:

We have all said today that if the tenant in situscheme continues to ramp up and to succeed, it might be the bulwark against that increase. Ms Hayes rightly set out the figures but if one goes back a little further to the start of the crisis, there was a family a month coming in. The year after that, it went to 16. The following year it then went to 32 and then to 64. The capacity for this to grow and to become up to 90 and 100 families a month, and that sort of scale, is definitely there. Mr. McCafferty is fully correct in that we want to be very cautious because on the other side of those figures, there are families who have been served with a notice to quit and need to be able to approach their local authority in confidence rather than being concerned that we are predicting some kind of inevitability to it. The trajectory on this can continue to go up and we will know relatively quickly, that is, within three or four of the upcoming months, because that pressure is already in the system. I would say that we will know in three or four months what the very clear trajectory is.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Deputy Ó Broin. I see that Deputy McAuliffe is online and I can to bring him in now or I can go before him, if he so wishes.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Chair. Unfortunately, the PC did not connect so I am making this connection from my phone.

I want to return to the tenant in situscheme. Ms Hayes gave us an indication of where things were from her perspective. I would be interested in hearing from Simon and Threshold as to how they are finding the implementation of the scheme?

Mr. Wayne Stanley:

I can give the Deputy a general idea but perhaps I will ask Mr. Kavanagh or Mr. Shinnors to deal with this question. Would Mr. Kavanagh like to speak about Cork?

Dr. Dermot Kavanagh:

I do not have the information front of me but I know that there has been a great amount of activity by Cork City Council in advancing this scheme. I do not have particular statistics.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As practitioners, Ms Hayes was indicating that she might have a figure. She was being general in her comments in stating that it might be 10% to 20% of landlords who were not be proceeding with the scheme. Is that the experience of Simon and Threshold?

My second question is on the roadblocks which were flagged at the beginning, such as domestic violence cases where people have an interest in the family home but are not able to return to it, or the mismatch of house sizes. Is it the experience of the witnesses that those issues are being ironed out at the local level or are there still blocks to the tenant in situscheme?

Mr. Wayne Stanley:

More generally, these issues are being worked through. I know from our work on the national homeless action committee, NHAC, and the County and City Management Association, CCMA, in particular, and the local authorities are starting to meet together and regularising the way this is implemented. At the early stage, there were many concerns around the quality of properties and the stress that it might put on maintenance systems with perhaps a reluctance in some local authorities to engage in it in that way but I believe there has been ongoing work in that space and it is improving. As Deputy Ó Broin was setting out, it is a very challenging vista in front of us and the outcome and outflow, as opposed to the intention, will be very much where we see the results, and we will see that over the coming months.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In some cases, it involves elected members doing a bit of hand-holding or case management on some of these. That should not be the case and there probably should be better systems to prevent interventions for those more complicated cases. From Threshold’s perspective, does it have worries about people falling between the gaps? Is a structural change needed for those cases? Second, is it having the same experiences as in Dublin Simon and Cork Simon where it believes that, by and large, these things are being worked out at local level?

Mr. John-Mark McCafferty:

We are seeing in general that it is working overall and perhaps working better than I thought it might. As somebody said, it is a better match than, perhaps, I thought might happen. There were, and we have mentioned these already, the inter-local authority issues and I understand that these are being tackled currently. The likes of elected representatives intervening is probably part and parcel of a scheme with many moving parts to it that is just up and running. If there was some much longer-term scheme, we would probably have some permanent or longer-term intermediary agency that would assist tenants with the tenantin situ scheme.

This is an inevitable result of a new scheme where people must respond very quickly. The clock is ticking with a notice of termination. Otherwise, assuming that there is a 10% non-take-up, that represents a very high level of non-take-up. The corollary is a 90% level of take-up, which is high. That said, the proportion of successful tenant in situtransactions compared to the number of notices to quit that result in the end of a tenancy without a tenant in situstill represents a very small proportion. They are welcome and positive but the bigger picture is that many people have had to just try to find alternative accommodation, which is particularly challenging and is, arguably, more challenging than it has ever been.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I ask our witnesses to help us the square the circle because I believe it is a very fair point. Clearly, for somebody in an eviction scenario, the tenantin situscheme is the single biggest intervention that can be made to prevent them needing to require emergency accommodation, yet Mr. McCafferty is correct in that the completion rates or the level of interest rates for the scheme are not necessarily matching the recorded figures that were mentioned there earlier, for example, with the RTB.

Could Ms Hayes comment on that because if there is a low rejection rate of the process by landlords, why are we not then getting the higher number of people availing of the scheme from both sides?

Ms Mary Hayes:

I do not have exact answers to that. This is an estimation of what I believe does not go ahead. We will probably need to look at that more forensically to get a true picture. My sense, just from the team in Dublin City Council, is that there are good and positive reactions to it but, obviously, as we covered earlier, sometimes people will withdraw at valuation stage. Sometimes the tenant does not want to go ahead and sometimes the local authorities is in a position to make an offer, depending on where someone is at, in overall terms, on the housing list, and the tenant will prefer to move rather than stay in that property.

In April we saw 14 such offers coming in to the Dublin region for reasons of landlords sale and in all of those cases, the tenants in situscheme was explored.

There are cases which will fall through the gaps where either the tenant rejects staying, the landlord is not willing to go ahead, or it was too late in the process. I would see that I believe we will be able to even out the tenant in situ scheme, bed it down and get there faster. We have a much better chance of success when people are contacting us earlier. Again, I am limited to speaking knowledgeably only about Dublin City Council.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want to ask about the issue of tenant rejection. I might ask the Chair to let me know if I am going over my time as I cannot see the clock. He might let me know-----

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy has another two minutes.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On the tenant rejection issue, the alternative in those scenarios is that the tenant would be forced to seek emergency accommodation. Obviously, from the State’s perspective, it would be far more beneficial to purchase the property. Does the tenant have the veto on the application of the tenant in situ scheme?

Ms Mary Hayes:

To be honest with the Deputy, the only cases we have seen are very exceptional ones where, for example, it would be a large family in a one-bedroom accommodation or in an apartment. It is not something I am worried about other than to say that, to date, I have not seen any unreasonable objections. They were very much based on the accommodation not being suitable and the fear of being there on the transfer list for a long time.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Could Ms Hayes provide answers at this stage to the mismatch between the numbers of people who are being evicted as a result of a sale and those coming forward for the tenantin situ scheme or is it still too early for that?

Ms Mary Hayes:

I cannot say why they are not all translating into emergency accommodation, but in a sense, it never does. It never has been an exact match. In terms of where people go or how they manage, I imagine there is overcrowding, people staying with family and friends, overholding, and where possible, the tenant in situ scheme. There are all of those factors. The number of tenants on completed schemes does not match up to the number of notices of termination issued.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Ms Hayes.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will take the next slot myself. I want to talk about policy measures that we can take to assist. We must bear in mind that when we pull the policy lever it can be quite a while before we see the reaction at the end of the line. The tenant in situ scheme, as well as the tenant in situcost rental and the first home loans opportunity that the legislation is going for, put measures in place to protect tenants that never existed before. That is a significant measure taken by the Government.

The Minister set out a figure of 1,300 homes as the starting point. Does the witnesses think that number was pitched correctly and split among the different regions? I might ask for a response on a regional basis. Counties Wexford and Wicklow, for example, got an allocation of 30. I do not know what the demand has been like there. The places with the highest demand such as Dublin, got 500 to 600. Do the witnesses think those figures are right?

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly:

The RTB figure for today shows there are 4,700 notices of termination. Every person is not going to be eligible for the straight-up local authority tenantin situscheme because they will need the social housing eligibility. We are working with 2,500 people. We have been told however that it is not necessarily a target, and that they can go beyond that but considering the demand it is starting pretty small.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has Threshold well exceeded the figure allocated?

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly:

Yes, for the number of people who have got notices of termination.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the engagement like from the Department? The Minister did say it was the starting point, that it is not a target. Having gone back to the Department and said: “We are way over this figure here. Is the Department still funding this or going with it?”

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly:

What we understand is that it will continue even beyond the 1,300. The cost rental then is the additional piece on top of that for the people who would not have social housing eligibility. That is still at the very early stages, but a lot was learned from the initial tenant in situscheme to put in place some of the structures for the cost rental. I am not aware of any of those coming on stream yet.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is fine. In terms of other policy measures, Ms Hayes mentioned long-term leasing. She said anything is preferable to homelessness in terms of economic ideology or housing ideology. We had a type of model before where a local authority would enter into a long-term lease for 25 years for a privately built development. Is that something all of the witnesses would support? Ms Hayes mentioned it. What are the views of Mr. McCafferty, Ms O'Reilly or the Simon Communities?

Mr. John-Mark McCafferty:

We take a fairly pragmatic view, as in supply is absolutely key here. There is a preference for bricks and mortar provided by AHBs and local authorities. That said, just given how stark things are for tenants, which we are seeing every day – everyone around this table sees the lack of options available to tenants and their families who are faced with notices of termination, which do not result in a tenant in situarrangement sale - we just need to be very pragmatic about these things.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is that more as a result of the emergency rather than what Mr. McCafferty would consider the ideal starting point in an ideal world?

Mr. John-Mark McCafferty:

Absolutely.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have just seen some good results from it in my constituency where the local authority has entered into long-term leases. Not only does it provide housing, but it provides an opportunity to free up family homes as well, as they tend to be one- and two-bedroom units. I have seen the cascade effect of it as well. I do question the long-term economic benefit of a 25-year lease, which we do not own at the end of it. I have always questioned that aspect of it. Does the Simon Communities have a view on the long-term leasing schemes?

Mr. Wayne Stanley:

I do not know if anybody else wants to come in, but I think we hold the same position as Mr. McCafferty. I think everyone does. The truth is, as I said in the opening remarks, there is a trauma to homelessness and there are issues to be dealt with when people experience homelessness but, fundamentally, the increase in homelessness we are seeing is because the housing system is broken. If leasing is a part of that, we support it as an immediate, interim or medium-term action. In particular if the properties are being allocated to people who are experiencing long-term homelessness, we can see the very real impact that can have. In the long term, what we really want to see is a build-up of public housing that will meet the needs of the State into the long term.

Mr. McCafferty covered a lot of the questions on the growing population. The growth in our population has not been a shock, but it has not necessarily been planned for. The Chair is correct. I think the question being asked is: what is the medium to long-term view? Another issue that concerns us when it comes to homelessness is that as the crisis has become more acute, and as the number of people presenting over time has increased, we have gone back to look at what the immediate thing is that we need to do because the crisis of somebody crossing the Threshold service is an immediate thing. The tenant in situscheme is a perfect example of that, but it is not providing additional stock in the system. Who is minded to make sure that we are getting to the 30,000, 40,000 and 50,000 units of accommodation that we need as a State every year over the longer term? We must make sure that in policy we view the immediate but not at the expense of the medium and long term.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Absolutely. The witnesses are dealing with the emergency situations and when I focus on policy, it does take a little time to kick into place but it has a long-term benefit. Because of the crisis we are in at the moment, I do see the advantage in that, although I would have had a view on it before. As well as that, we hear from developers that a lot of the sites where these developments could be located are non-viable, as there is no opportunity to make a private market sale because they are too expensive, but I can see the advantage if the Government was to come in and subvent it and enter into a long-term leasing arrangement.

I have heard about tax breaks for landlords as well. If I went out on the plinth and said that, somebody with other ideology would beat me up and down the plinth with their policy an would say we cannot have tax breaks for landlords. Could Mr. McCafferty expand on that a little? He did mention it, but could he just elaborate?

Mr. John-Mark McCafferty:

There already are certain tax breaks for institutional landlords. The Government seems to be making positive sounds around some kind of intervention there. In terms of the measures that we are advocating, our interest relates to smaller landlords. There is a number of strands here. One is particular interventions relating to sales. We have the tenant in situscheme and it is working. We did ask for changes to capital gains tax for the scheme, but perhaps it is working out okay as it currently stands. It is more around PAYE and the treatment of income tax. A blanket tax credit for small landlords would not necessarily change any behaviour in and of itself, and there would be an awful lot of deadweight in it, as the Department of Finance would call it, so it would be a huge cost to the taxpayer. The challenge is to find a way of structuring a tax credit or some kind of tax break that incentivises a change in behaviour in terms of substantially longer-term leases of ten or 20 years to emulate the experience elsewhere in northern Europe. We are back to our friends in northern Europe again. It is not the easiest thing to design but it is not impossible.

We need to look at other tax incentives that may operate over a longer period, tying in certain behaviours and looking at how they can be transposed into the landlord world. A blanket tax credit for small landlords will not have much efficacy. It is about incentivising some kind of change that will lead to improved security of tenure.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is a difficulty in trying to fix a certain tax for a certain cohort.

I have more questions on policy but I am conscious of time. At the critical point at which the landlord has served notice of termination and somebody is about to be become homeless, when Threshold intervenes and tries to talk the landlord back into renting out the property and keeping doing what he or she is doing, what are the main reasons landlords give for wanting to get out of renting out their properties? There are some really good landlords and some really good tenants. We know all of that. What is the main reason landlords give for wanting to leave the market? Landlords getting out is by far the biggest reason we are hitting the numbers we are now seeing. What are the main reasons landlords give Threshold for wanting out?

Mr. John-Mark McCafferty:

I will give a couple of the top-level reasons and then ask Ms O'Reilly to elaborate. Obviously, house values are being realised now in a way they were not previously. A lot of landlords were in negative equity from 2008 or 2009 right through until quite recently. I understand there were changes to capital gains tax in recent years, which incentivised certain behaviours, such as landlords selling their properties. Some landlords will cite regulation and others will cite negative experiences of being a landlord. That is a reality for some. There is a whole plethora of experiences given.

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly:

The other reason given is that it was always their intention to sell when they got to a certain age. Landlords are far from a homogenous group. There are lots of different reasons for selling and some will have multiple reasons for doing so.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The difficult point we have to address is how to introduce some sort of taxation or monetary incentive to keep the landlords who intend to stay. We do not want to incentivise any who were intending to stay to leave by offering them a good deal to get out. It is a very tricky area to navigate.

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly:

The information from the RTB survey of landlords will go some way to inform us on that. Another survey is due that will delve deeper into the issues. The solution certainly will involve consultation with landlords across the board. We assist some 20,000 renters a year. We speak to a cohort of renters but certainly not all of them. It is a similar situation with landlords, of whom there are some 150,000 in the country. There must be significant consultation with them on this issue.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Ms O'Reilly. I have gone well over time, for which I apologise. We move now to the third round, beginning with Deputy Gould. I may come back in later with some further questions.

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for being here today and for all the work they do. Looking back over the years at where the homeless figures were previously and where they are now, we recognise the important front-line work that has to be done. I thank the witnesses and everyone in their organisations for their tremendous work.

My first two questions are for Threshold. From a parochial point of view, do the witnesses have any information on the number of homeless in Cork? If they do not have the figures to hand, they might send them on to me. Second, one of the things we are hearing is that the numbers in emergency accommodation are not a true reflection of the homeless figures. I know the witnesses have discussed this in the past. On the basis of the data they can access, what do they estimate are the true homeless figures today? The witnesses from the DRHE and Simon Communities of Ireland might also respond to that, if they wish.

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly:

We have a glimpse into the numbers who are couch surfing, of which there has been an increase. A total of 68 people in quarter 1 told us they were couch surfing. That compares with five in the first quarter of 2020. We are seeing a lot more people having to stay with family and friends, compared with the numbers we were seeing before the pandemic. While the numbers involved are small, they are based only on the people who come to us.

Mr. John-Mark McCafferty:

By its nature, this type of arrangement is hidden. Cases close and people move on. They have lost their tenancy and are in an emergency situation, moving from place to place. They might go to a family member one week and to a friend the following week. We believe the numbers we have are only the tip of an iceberg. The figures are an indication that points to a trend.

On the Deputy's other question, we have figures specifically for Cork city and county, which we will share with him.

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Mr. McCafferty.

Mr. Jonathan Shinnors:

I will respond as manager of emergency accommodation for the Simon Community mid-west region, which covers Limerick and Clare. We are aware of a lot of uncounted numbers due to individuals not wanting to come into services for many different reasons, including addiction, mental health issues or the trauma of returning to a hostel after possibly having a negative experience previously. There have been a number of rough sleeper counts in recent years, which show a marked increase in the visibility of individuals sleeping homeless. We have spoken a lot today about the people who can engage with services. I work predominantly with individuals who need assistance and do not have the capacity to engage with services. Many homeless people manage themselves.

The pressure points are all leading to a situation in which we will see far more people homeless on the streets. Although we are doing all this work in the background, the pressure points include families and individuals who are in work and seeking emergency accommodation. They are squeezing the marginalised people with addiction and mental health issues out of the hostels. We now have working people entering the system who can sustain their beds in the hostels and engage with supports. Those who are entrenched in addiction, suffering mental health issues and so on can no longer sustain themselves and are sleeping rough on the streets or wherever.

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It used to be the case that having a steady income from work was a preventative against becoming homeless. That is no longer the case. In the past five days, I have had four people present to me who are in very good full-time jobs. Three of them will not qualify for social housing because they are over the income limit. Cork City Council's income threshold for an individual is €40,000, which is higher than the threshold of a lot of local authorities. Those three people will not qualify for social housing and two of them will not even qualify for the cost-rental backstop because their salary is over €53,000. When the Minister increased local authority thresholds by €5,000, he did not also increase the backstop. Now we have people earning over €53,000 a year who will become homeless in September or October. In the past, a job was always a shield against homelessness. I have spoken to people who are distraught. Never in their life, with the jobs they are in and the families they have, did they think they would be in this situation. Compared with five years ago, how much of an increase has Mr. Shinnors seen in the number of homeless people who are in work? What percentage of an increase has there been? It is fine if Mr. Shinnors does not have the figures today. This is an issue we need to look at as part of an examination of the causes and consequences of homelessness.

Mr. Jonathan Shinnors:

In my years of experience managing homeless accommodation services, we would previously have seen nobody who was in employment. Now we are in a situation whereby 20% to 30% of the homeless people living in our accommodation are in employment, and that number is increasing. They are either coming in with employment or the level of case management we offer means they are able to access and sustain employment. There has been a marked shift in this regard.

It has been noticeable for the first six months of this year. That is where we are at.

Dr. Dermot Kavanagh:

From Cork Simon's perspective, it would have been fairly unheard of to have people in this situation. Work was one of our most effective pathways out of homelessness actually. We have a significant employment, education and training programme for that . We did a snapshot a couple of months ago and we found that there were eight people using our Night Light emergency shelter who were in full-time, taxable employment, which is a very high number out of approximately 70 people per night in the emergency accommodation that we provide. Eight others were engaged in the informal economy, so that is a very different situation compared to a few years back.

Mr. John-Mark McCafferty:

In 2022, of those who entered homelessness from our system, 158 were on a social welfare payment and 138 were in waged or salaried employment, so the figures are very similar. We will come back to the Deputy on the historic figures. From our experience working in the sector, back when rents started to increase in 2013 and 2014, the pressure points were in relation to people who are on social welfare, and trying to access or who would have traditionally accessed, rent supplement. Those rent supplement levels were relatively low, on the margins of what was needed in Dublin city. That was the issue and now, as the Deputy says, homelessness is a real and present danger for those who are salaried. We can get back with more specific figures

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In hindsight, the Government should have brought in the tenant in situ scheme earlier. If it had been brought in two years ago, we would see fewer people homeless. Is that a fair enough statement for me to make?

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was reintroduced in April 2022.

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, it was only enacted last July. It was probably from August and September that local authorities actually started purchasing housing. That is the information I have.

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly:

I do not know if it would have. It might have changed the number slightly. If it was being delivered at the scale it is being delivered at now a few years back, it might have made some small difference. However, the over-reliance on the private rented sector from ten years ago has to a degree brought us to where we are now. The tenant in situscheme might mitigate it to an extent I do not know how significant a difference it would have made if it had been introduced two years ago. Perhaps the other witnesses have some thoughts on it.

Mr. Wayne Stanley:

Landlords selling up has been an issue for a number of years. If a tenant in situscheme had been brought in earlier it would certainly have prevented a number of families and individuals from ending up homeless. There is no question about that.

Regarding hidden homelessness and the total numbers, to be fair to the Department, they have never argued that the monthly figures that come out are anything other than a barometer of where we are in the number of people in emergency accommodation. That is how we have to view them. The question is not how many people, although we have spent time polling to try to get our head around that. The important questions are where the people are coming from and where the pressures are. Our understanding of hidden homelessness is the important point as opposed to necessarily the true scale of it. As we seek to understand that, we see it particularly in the area of youth homelessness. We know there are identifiable young people coming through systems that are not necessarily going to meet all of their needs, and they are going to struggle to find housing when they come out of it. If we are monitoring that and identifying those pathways into homelessness, we can actually put in place some of the preventive measures that will assist them. It will also give us a sense of the true scale at which we need to be providing social public housing to mitigate those risks of homelessness, over and above the very substantive crisis we have in the private rental market.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I think the tenant in situscheme is a really good initiative on the part of Dublin City Council, born out of a particular set of circumstances. It was not widely applied across local authorities. I know our own local authority did not pick up on it. The real issue is that it should never have been shut down. It was shut down from 2020. When it was was reopened last April, there was not the urgency behind it that there is now. I am only saying that because if we decide to do anything on the other side of this meeting, the suggestion that the scheme should actually become much more mainstream is a good one. Many of the things that the local authorities, to their great credit, have done since March, including the protocol and the additional flexibility shows that this could continue to be a significant intervention, subject to proper controls of value for money and a reasonable pragmatism in terms of property types, etc. It cannot just be buying everything. There are good reasons why some properties could be bought, but I just want to recommend that.

My first point is for Ms Hayes and Mr. Stanley and his team. I am strongly of a view that the thresholds for Housing First are set too high and the targets are too low. Because it works so well, if we lower the threshold for entry and increase the targets, many of those people who are stuck in emergency accommodation for long periods, but not eligible for Housing First, could be taken out of emergency accommodation. This would be much better for them as well as for the pressure points.

My next question is for Ms Hayes. The Health Research Board, HRB, produced that very important report on premature mortality among people experiencing homelessness. It builds very effectively on work the Dublin Region Homeless Executive, DRHE, and the HSE commissioned previously. Is there an initial response from the DRHE or is it still assessing the findings of the report? How does it indicate practices can be improved?

My next question is for Threshold. From what we know, there are only a small number of illegal evictions. However, there was the very significant Residential Tenancies Board, RTB, report to the Minister last November that, through the good work of a number of journalists, including those at the Dublin Inquireris now publicly available. I invite the witnesses to comment on that piece of research.

I also ask the witnesses to comment briefly on the relevant findings of Threshold's recent research report with Alone to the conversation we having today, so not specifically on that wider issue of ageing and older people in the private rental sector but specifically in terms of homelessness.

My final question relates to the Cathaoirleach's policy solutions. We are still scrambling around trying to cope with the increased pressure. Is there not a compelling case, in addition to taking the kinds of measures that people are outlining here, for Government to reconsider the ban on no-fault evictions, even on a temporary basis? I will not ask the Cathaoirleach to answer that policy question for Government but I will ask Simon and Threshold.

Mr. Wayne Stanley:

Cork Simon runs a very effective Housing First initiative in Cork. Mr. Kavanagh will continue on this point.

Dr. Dermot Kavanagh:

I am a big advocate of Housing First. It certainly has been transformative in prioritising people who have been very long-term homeless. Some of the people we have housed have been homeless for up to 20 years. Many have very complex needs. A few years back, Professor Nicholas Pleace of the University of York did a categorisation and talked about lighter versions of Housing First. The Deputy is right, there needs to be a relentless focus on people who are long-term homeless, not just those with the very complex needs that the current Housing First programmes are targeting, but those who have moderate to high support needs as well. The tenancy sustainment services need to use the same model when working with people.

The biggest barrier to expanding Housing First services is the availability of one bed units. There are a lot more coming down the tracks in Cork and I am sure in other areas as well. A decision needs to be made to prioritise and to give a disproportionate number of one bed units for programmes like that and to expand it.

It should expand it and focus very much, as I said, on the roughly 10% of people who are availing of 50% of the bed nights in emergency shelters. That would have the most immediate impact on taking pressure off the system, which is urgently necessary now. I hope that answers everything.

Ms Mary Hayes:

On Housing First, I disagree with Deputy Ó Broin on the threshold being too high. We have a very specific target group. If we see the same faces turning up in a rough sleeper count in Dublin over successive counts, those people are our top priority. We balance the Housing First lettings. In Housing First, we also see people who have been long entrenched in emergency accommodation. We do not discriminate; both are considered for Housing First.

On the issue of being able to provide more housing for single adults, it is just a matter of doing the lettings through our allocations. Lighter supports are available through the support to live independently, SLI, scheme and various other things. The overall message is that we need to move single people out of emergency accommodation, irrespective of whether it is through Housing First or other means.

To respond to the question no the Health Research Board, we welcome the HRB's report on premature mortality. We were collating data, but as we are not health researchers in the DRHE, we are not in a position to give recommendations whereas the HRB is. We engaged very early on with Ena Lynn and Suzi Lyons from the HRB in relation to our work but we are very happy that is now in the right home. They will make recommendations on preventable deaths, which is something the DRHE could not do. What we can do is operationalise those recommendations. We have in place in Dublin a critical incident review and a HSE co-ordinator who is working with us in the DRHE. We do whatever we can. Some 46 automated external defibrillator, AED, machines have gone in across the services. Naloxone has been rolled out in private emergency accommodation and to the NGOs. I thank the staff who are saving lives every day, intervening in overdoses in hostels, etc. It is extremely traumatising for the staff and everybody else involved. The HRB's report on premature mortality has lessons for us all in terms of what we can do. We very much welcome it.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There were four more questions but we are almost out of time.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There were only three more and they were shorter questions.

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly:

On illegal evictions, unfortunately we are seeing an increase in the numbers. I do not have figures to hand but we are seeing upwards of 150 per year. I have not had a chance to go through the RTB's report in full detail yet but we definitely support its recommendation that it should have more power or capacity to tackle illegal evictions. As matters stand, it is quite limited in what it can do. We are seeing that Friday evenings and weekends are the times when the illegal evictions will occur. If the advisers are working with somebody and they anticipate an illegal eviction will occur, they give them as much advice and guidance as they can to get them through the weekend as regards who they can ring and talk to if something happens. The RTB seems to have got to the nub of what is going on in those instances. Very specific and extraordinary things need to happen because it is an extraordinary situation. I will let Mr. McCafferty speak about the double deficit.

Mr. John-Mark McCafferty:

It is called the "double deficit" because there is a deficit in data planning and a deficit in the provision with regard to older people and housing. There is an increasing risk of homelessness among older people because of their particular vulnerabilities. A large proportion of those in the private sector are ageing into that cohort. As the Deputy will have heard at the launch, landlords are reluctant to house older people because of the care needs they may have. That information was offered by the landlord representative body. It is a challenge. We will work with Alone to build up a coalition of people to have ongoing conversations, policy development and policy implementation on addressing the particular homelessness risk inherent in being older, having care needs and being predominately on lower incomes. All those issues are coalescing.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On that point, the report is very strong and it may something for the committee to consider in the autumn. When we discuss our schedule, we could agree to consider the full report. My final question was on the eviction ban.

Mr. John-Mark McCafferty:

Clearly the ban was a respite and it gave breathing space to both statutory services and voluntary services. The moratorium was not going to last forever. There are arguments on both sides around the long-term versus the short-term impacts of the ban. We said that the "least worst" option would be to extend the ban. It came to an end and we are seeing a staggered impact in terms of notices of termination. We are responding to them to the best of our capabilities, as I am sure everyone around the table is. We monitor the position in relation to the notices that are now maturing. What we do goes back to the conversation we had earlier about the flow and volume of notices.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does a representative of the Simon group wish to comment?

Mr. Wayne Stanley:

Yes, my comment is very similar to that of Mr. McCafferty. I would have liked to have seen an extension to the moratorium while the tenant in situ scheme was being ramped up, as well as those other initiatives. It would have been good to have all of that in place. However, I am cognisant that that did not happen during the five months of the ban and it was only in its final month that the scheme started to ramp up and the pressure came on. It seems that sometimes we need that imperative. Instinctively, I would say "Yes" but I am also cognisant that we have made progress since the ban was lifted because of the pressure that brought on the system. I do not know where that answer leaves the Deputy.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I apologise for my absence. I was speaking in the Seanad on the mother and baby homes redress Bill. It struck me when I was speaking on the Bill that it ties in to this issue because many homeless people have come from institutional care. The discussion on the older cohort reminded me of the number of people who have come from various areas of State care, such as health facilities and prison facilities. We see a very high percentage of those in the homeless figures, anecdotally, but also in meeting them and speaking with other agencies which interface with them. Some of those individuals do not particularly like the confinement of institutional support systems, such as youth housing, hostels, etc. There are complexities around that but, as with everyone who is homeless, there are many who have complex needs. I think we have faced up to that.

I am conscious that I touched on a lot of questions before I left the meeting. I am back now but I will spend much time speaking as I would rather hear the responses of the representatives. Addressing youth homelessness was one of the key aims of the Government's Housing for All policy. It was one of its planks. As I said earlier, the Government established a youth homelessness strategy, which had 27 distinct actions. I do not know much of that overlaps the work of the organisations before us or how their work interplays with the synergies in driving forward the 27 objectives. These 27 key actions are complex, varied and important. Seeing them laid out in 27 categories crystallises the objectives and targets. The purpose is to prevent young people from entering homelessness, improve the experience of young people who are in emergency accommodation and assist young people exiting homelessness. While there is an issue with anyone being in emergency accommodation, there are particular issues with having young people in emergency accommodation.

I am conscious of a model of aftercare service in Dún Laoghaire. I do not want to mention the individual institution. It is involved in the care of children, from infants right up to the teenage years. Those involved showed great foresight more than 20 years ago when they realised they were meeting the same people coming through the care systems on the streets, both in Dún Laoghaire and Dublin city.

They set up an aftercare service. It has two full-time people. Remember, it is more than just an aftercare service. It is a link with their past and it understands their past. When a person gets to a certain stage in life he or she does not necessarily want to keep explaining his or her background or past and why they do not have the support of a normal family, if there was ever such a thing. It adds to the complexities of the issues all around that. That is an important model. I believe they struggle to get on with the job but those people do it, and do it effectively. There were many interventions, slips and recurring issues but there is a safe space and a safe place. Aftercare as a follow-on from institutional care in any shape or form is critically important.

I sat on the board of a number of prisons in this State. Therefore I am familiar with the complexities and experiences of people leaving prison services. This is a cohort of people who need interventions through an overlap or synergy with the prison services. They are vulnerable people. In many cases, we find that people released on early release plead to get back into the system because they do not want to face issues outside the door of the prison. That is a particularly important issue. The witnesses might touch on that. What is their knowledge and understanding of the youth homelessness strategy and how the organisations interplay in that?

My final point may have been covered in my absence. If so, there is no need to cover it again. In regard to the commentary on the most recent figures on the increase in family homelessness, what was the witnesses' immediate reaction to that? We always need strategic interventions. What we in this committee really need to hear is, what are the asks from the witnesses, as experts in the field, walking the ground and engaging with people? What are the strategic interventions or policies that we need to support further to address this issue?

Mr. Wayne Stanley:

On the youth homelessness strategy, we are a member of the Irish Coalition to End Youth Homelessness. One of our members sits on the steering group for the youth homelessness strategy, and another member is on the national homeless action committee, NHAC, so we have two representations on it. From the reports we are getting from that committee it seems to me that good work is being undertaken. When it comes to young people the challenge will be to get joined-up thinking across agencies to make sure the supports reach the young people as and when they need them. There seems to be good engagement on it. They are awaiting such things as Tusla’s development of its own strategic plan. Youth homelessness should be in the body of that and a priority within it. We will see the outflow of the success of the strategy in the coming months. A good deal of preparatory work is still being done. It certainly sounds positive but we always judge these things on the results as the Senator rightly said. Hopefully we will start to see results quickly.

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly:

In Threshold, we are not particularly involved the youth homelessness strategy. We support the Irish Coalition to End Youth Homelessness and contribute but at present we are not involved in any of the actions. The Senator asked for a comment on family homelessness. Unfortunately it was not a huge surprise. We see the increase in notices, the numbers of people who are facing the loss of their homes and the difficulty in firstly keeping the homes they have and finding new homes. Sadly, it is not a big surprise.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Ms O'Reilly expect it will continue to rise?

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly:

Possibly, yes, because there are just not enough houses. We see the increase in hidden homelessness as I mentioned. Our expectation in that regard was touched on already, but the homeless numbers only count those who are in emergency accommodation. That number may not rise hugely but it is based on the capacity of the accommodation. We can see the rise in hidden homelessness.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What Ms O'Reilly says about capacity is an interesting point. If the capacity is not there then it does not reflect on the accurate figures. Therefore we are getting a mixed message. The situation could be far worse. Would Ms O'Reilly agree?

Ms Ann-Marie O'Reilly:

Possibly. As I said hidden homelessness has been touched on. We do not have a good idea of that.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In regard to Ms Hayes's involvement in the youth homelessness and the synergies of that, particularly the role of the four Dublin local authorities in regard to people exiting State care of any form, will she touch on that?

Ms Mary Hayes:

Any transition from an institution is probably one of the most fragile times in a life. That includes hospital discharges, prison discharges and as the Senator accurately said, children leaving care are already an identifiable group that we know is at high risk of homelessness. Where they are active, youth steering groups are incredibly good and effective at identifying those who are at the highest risk. What we do in the Dublin regions is, we support capital assistance scheme, CAS, acquisitions for children leaving care which we can then target directly at young people leaving care. Tusla approached us and Dublin City Council certainly about unplugging some of its transitional accommodation for people who have aged out of care. We need to look at some options. I am interested, along with my colleagues in Limerick, in the shared living model. We find that with some of the young people we will have to look at different models from those to which we are accustomed. While not recommended for any other group, unconditional transitional accommodation is probably suitable for young people leaving care in terms of supporting them to help to learn independent living skills, in some but not all cases. Broadly speaking, the youth homelessness strategy is conscious of all those actions. There are good people on the strategy group. It remains to be seen how we implement it. A report is due out shortly.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Ms Hayes for her time.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To return now to policy measures, when the moratorium was introduced everybody was in support of it. Many of us knew that deciding when the moratorium was going to be lifted would be an extremely difficult political decision to make. Is it too early to determine whether the moratorium had an impact on landlords' decision to leave the sector? That was one of the reasons put out there, that it was to be a temporary measure in a particular set of circumstances. However, would Mr. McCafferty know whether it is too early to determine the impact on landlords leaving the market?

Mr. John-Mark McCafferty:

The short answer to that is "Yes". The assumption is that had the moratorium continued, while the ongoing protection for existing tenants would be welcome, the unintended consequences of the impact on small landlords is clearly a factor because of the level of uncertainty in the system around how long this moratorium would last and whether this moratorium would be one of many. These are issues to consider. We need to join the dots going backwards and that will take time in regard to the data.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In regard to the tenant in situscheme, if I had to make the decision now on a moratorium or the tenant in situscheme, I think I would lean more towards ramping up the tenant in situscheme. That would be more effective because, whereas the moratorium was just putting off an event, the tenant in situscheme was actionable and quantifiable, by yourselves and others. Would Mr. McCafferty agree that doubling the funding for the tenant in situscheme capacity numbers would be much more beneficial?

Mr. John-Mark McCafferty:

As we said in our opening address, the ramping up of that would be welcome. Admittedly, I probably did not see the potential of the tenantin situscheme in the sense that it has realised probably more than I might have thought possible. That is welcome but my caution is that it is still only benefits a small portion of the large share of people who are losing their homes. However, it is a positive interaction. Some years ago a number of the homelessness organisations and homelessness prevention organisations came together on this issue of sale. We were asked by the Taoiseach in 2018 or 2019 the question of what is the most pressing issue.

As far as we could see, the most pressing issue was notice of termination and the biggest cause of that, which is the still the case, was due to sale. We were asked if we could do something about the selling of these properties. We ran into issues with the advice from the Attorney General and so on and then it stopped. In hindsight, perhaps if collectively we had looked outside the box we might have been further down the road on this tenantin situ scheme. Again, it is one intervention.

Senator Boyhan asked about strategic interventions which links to the policy question. What is needed is supply, including cost rental and the roll-out of social housing by approved housing bodies and local authorities. We await the outturn of the discussions of the Housing Commission. Hopefully there will be a number of recommendations relating to the rental sector and by implication, to homelessness. Prevention is crucial but I would say that, would I not? Investment in prevention is really key, structurally.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That makes absolute sense. Mr. McCafferty just mentioned cost rental and in terms of the provision of housing in Ireland, we will probably look back in a decade's time and say that the introduction of cost rental was one of the most transformative ways of procuring and providing housing for people. It provides that long-term, secure tenancy, which very few people in Ireland currently have. People are always worried and to have cost rental in place, especially for the older cohort of renters, is so important.

There have been calls for emergency planning powers and emergency procurement powers. Is planning an impediment in some way? In terms of emergency procurement, I presume it is in reference to modular and volumetric units. Is that something that Mr. McCafferty sees as an impediment?

Mr. John-Mark McCafferty:

We are not specialists in planning but to return to my earlier point, I cannot help feeling that the process, however it is structured, facilitates a real drag in development and barriers to development. I am not advocating that there is a gag on local opposition voiced to genuine concerns but it strikes me that it takes an inordinate amount of time to get certain projects off the ground, or certainly projects that I am hearing about within the Dublin city area. Clearly there are various barriers along the way so yes, planning is a factor. In terms of the solutions, there are people who are better qualified and experienced on planning issues than me but it is certainly a factor.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have spent a lot of time talking about the delays in planning and about resources within the planning system. An increase in resources would obviously help but emergency powers have been introduced in relation to planning for local authority construction of social homes on land that is already zoned. I do not know what impact that is having as yet but would be interested in looking at the figures to see how many of those projects are in process or even how much time that would shave off because that is generally done by Part 8 development.

Mr. Wayne Stanley:

We are hoping and anticipating that the Housing Commission report on the right to housing will come up with a proposed wording and something we can progress. That would strengthen the constitutional position and help us to bring forward some of the solutions that are required.

In response to the original question around the moratorium, there are two sides to the debate about extending it. One relates to the capacity of the State to communicate with landlords and reassure them. Landlords understand as well as everyone else that we are in the midst of a crisis. One of the egregious parts of lifting the moratorium because it was a safety net that was going to impact landlords, instead of extending it while we ramped up the safety net, was that it put the pressure on the shoulders of people who were in imminent risk of homelessness as opposed to putting it on back on the State to deliver on what it said it was going to deliver on. When we talked about it, we argued that rather than setting a timeframe, the Government should set delivery targets against which the moratorium would be lifted, and that the delivery should be rolled out as quickly as possible so that when the moratorium is lifted, it is lifted for good. In that way, at least the majority of the most vulnerable would be protected. That is the way the State should look at its duty.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are eager to see that right to housing inserted into the Constitution. Mr. Stanley was before the committee previously with the Home For Good campaign group and assisted us with that issue previously. The report has been awaited for quite some time now and we need to see some movement on it.

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank our guests for their contributions. The figures released by the RTB today show that 525 families in Cork received notices to quit in quarter 1 of 2023. There were 1,000 such notices between quarter 3 and quarter 4 of 2022. This means that in Cork city approximately 1,500 families have received notices to quit. Threshold and the Simon Communities are doing tremendous work but do they have the resources to deal with what is a tsunami? This is on the back a report in the Irish edition of The Mirror today by Louise Burne that family homelessness has risen by over 1,200% in three years.

What I am seeing in my constituency office at the moment is that as homelessness figures continue to go up, more families are couch surfing and staying with family members but that only lasts so long. People might be able to stay with a family member for three to six months but no longer. A family came to me last week. Their child had made their holy communion and the family had to stay overnight in a hotel. They had been staying with the wife's sister. Communion is one of the pivotal events in a child's life and the only place the family could go was to a hotel. They had to borrow money to stay in a hotel in order to give the child their special day. That is only one example. There is no way the family can continue to live with the wife's sister and her family under one roof. I am in fear at the moment for the people who are coming in to me. That lady asked me last week if there was hope. I always tell people there is hope. Cork City Council does brilliant work. I can be critical at times but the council does brilliant work and is doing its very best in the circumstances. I always encourage people. I tell them there is hope and that there are supports available but to be honest, I do not know where all of these families are going to go. We are talking about 1,500 families in Cork. Cork has 10% of the national stock of social housing. How are we going to cope? If we cannot cope in Cork then how are we going to cope across the State?

I firmly believe that if the Government is not going to reinstate the eviction ban right now, it must reintroduce a winter eviction ban. That might give the local authorities and the State the opportunity to put more tenantin situ scheme arrangements in place and to deliver the social housing that has been promised. While I have major doubts about the ability of the Minister to deliver, at least another ban on evictions might give him the opportunity to do so.

Mr. John-Mark McCafferty:

In response to the question on resources, the model that the Dublin Region Homeless Executive operates in terms of bringing all of the players together is really important for planning in the short, medium and long term. We had a conversation in the past around regional homeless fora. What is really key at a time of crisis is that across the State, all of the players are working together. The DRHE is a model for what happens in Dublin. It is really important that the local authorities, the HSE, voluntary organisations, and private providers are regularly communicating, planning and co-creating solutions across the State at a regional level. That is really important.

The Deputy asked about resources and I would underline the fact that resources in prevention are really key here. However, even within that there are limitations.

If a landlord is selling and the notice of termination is legitimate, what can be done is limited, notwithstanding the success of the tenant in situscheme.

Winter eviction bans require really delicate decisions to be made by the Government. Our sector has made its feelings known on the respite that the previous ban provided for tenants and the policy innovations that came from it in terms of the great momentum behind the tenant in situarrangements of the past couple of months.

Mr. Wayne Stanley:

With regard to a winter eviction ban, there would be great reluctance on our side. I believe that if we started to introduce winter eviction bans, they would be built into the system. Such measures have genuine force and effect as immediate emergency actions, but if you start anticipating the introduction of a winter eviction ban, or even introduce one every year, the bans will quickly be built into the system. Since people will know they are coming, they will serve their notices to quit in advance. This could put more pressure on the system because more people would be presenting in the three months before a winter eviction ban came into effect. The system quickly adapts to these things. The eviction ban we had was so powerful and effective because it was responding to a crisis. We felt it should have been in place for longer, and we stated that several times. Unless we end up back where we were, with a genuine risk of families ending up on the street immediately because of no capacity in the system, we will be slow to call for the repeated introduction of eviction bans.

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Under the French model, there is a winter eviction ban every year.

Mr. Wayne Stanley:

We would be reluctant to call for that because it would be built into the system.

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I get the point on it being built into the system; but would it not provide safety, especially for rough sleepers, when the weather is at its worst, which is probably from November to February? The witnesses deal with rough sleepers on the front line and will realise that we surely need some kind of protection. The DRHE gathers data on the number of tragic deaths. The witnesses made a point on having regional authorities or executives. Down in Cork, we do not have any access to such data. The data allow us to analyse what happens. It was said that when there is a critical incident, people can be brought together to analyse it, hopefully preventing future deaths among rough sleepers.

I will bow to the delegates' greater knowledge. Protecting people at the highest risk, especially rough sleepers, when the weather is at its worst should be done, but that is just my view. I understand the point that there could be unintended consequences.

The delegates might want to comment on the scale. Do their organisations have the resources and staff to deal with it? Even if they had all the money in the world, would they have the staff to implement the policy? There are unbelievable initiatives in Cork but the scale of the problem is the issue.

Mr. Wayne Stanley:

Mr. Kavanagh might talk about the excellent work Simon Communities of Ireland is doing in Cork.

If I thought an eviction ban would be effective, I would call for it. We saw that the one we had supported families, in particular, but even when the full moratorium on evictions was in place, during the Covid pandemic, single people continued to become homeless. Bearing in mind the pressures, it is generally single people who end up rough sleeping, unfortunately. It is not always the case but it is generally the case. Therefore, the solutions we need are slightly different, and we need a slightly different understanding of our housing system and its needs.

Mr. Kavanagh will refer to the pressure on the system in Cork.

Dr. Dermot Kavanagh:

As I have said already, the system is under tremendous pressure. There is no question about that. Now that we are in May and winter is six months away, or whatever it is, the focus absolutely needs to be on doing more by way of prevention and finding as many exits for people as possible. For the system to cope, we need to focus especially on the large number of long-term homeless people, who account for most of the bed nights in the emergency accommodation system. Without any doubt, there are considerable challenges, so it is a question of having the resources and staff in place to deal with the challenges that lie ahead.

People have said the evictions ban gave breathing space. That breathing space was needed because not enough had been done by way of prevention and finding more exits. We must use the time we have now, as we approach winter, to focus on all these things.

Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Mr. Kavanagh for that comment. It was the last one on the subject today.

I thank all the witnesses for their time. I realise that when they take time out of their day to be here, nobody else is doing their work back in the office and it builds up. Members realise and acknowledge the difficulty of the job done by staff at the front line. As I often say to local authority representatives when they are before us, it is one of the most emotionally difficult jobs and it puts great stress and strain on people. We appreciate and acknowledge the delegates' work and thank them for their time.