Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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All those present in the committee room are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19. Anybody joining the meeting remotely must do so from within the Leinster House complex only. We will look at the sectoral employment order for the construction sector.

The Industrial Relations (Amendment) Act 2015 introduced a mechanism for sectoral wage-setting known as sectoral employment orders, SEOs. That mechanism applies across economic sectors and replaces the previous system, known as registered employment agreement. The intention of the legislative framework governing the SEO is to establish minimum rates of pay, sick leave provision and pensions provisions for a particular sector. The Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment has received a draft SEO for the electrical contracting sector and laid it before the House of the Oireachtas for confirmation. Both the Dáil and Seanad have referred it to this committee for consideration.

To assist the committee in considering the SEO, I welcome, on his first visit to the committee as Minister, the Minister of State of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment with special responsibility for employment affairs and retail business, Deputy Richmond. I also welcome his officials from the Department: Ms Tara Coogan, principal officer with responsibility for industrial relations, workplace relations, construction contracts and adjudication; and Ms Mary O’Connor, assistant principal officer, industrial relations, workplace relations, construction contracts and adjudication.

I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practices of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to another person in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. Witnesses are again reminded of the longstanding parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that may be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by me to discontinue such remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

The briefing note and opening statement have been circulated to members. I invite the Minister of State to make opening remarks.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I am delighted to join members for my first time before the committee and pleased to present to the committee a draft SEO for the construction sector. The draft order is proposing to amend the previous SEO made in 2021, which in turn amended the SEO made in 2019, by confirming new minimum rates of pay, pension and sick pay entitlements for workers in the construction sector. This order, if approved, will be the fourth of this kind. The construction sector has had three previous SEOs in 2017, 2019 and 2021.

Before speaking about this SEO specifically, I will say a few words about the process of approving a draft SEO, my role as Minister and that of the Houses of the Oireachtas more widely. An SEO is a statutory minimum wage-setting mechanism in a certain economic sector. Essentially, it is a collective bargaining mechanism which, once the statutory thresholds have been met, gives the Labour Court, as a neutral decision-maker, the power to examine an application for an SEO in a given economic sector. As part of this examination, the Labour Court must explore all the policy considerations set out in the Industrial Relations Act 2015 by affording all interested parties an opportunity to engage with the proposals and have their views heard.

Once the Labour Court has complied with this statutory process set out in the 2015 Act, it has the power to make a recommendation for an SEO to me. This recommendation must be accompanied by a report which sets out the process and matters that the Labour Court considered when reaching its recommendation. The purpose of this report is to assist the Minister in deciding whether the court has fulfilled its obligations as per the Act.

My role as Minister in this process is limited. As per the 2015 Act, I have the power to either accept or reject the recommendation as presented. If I agree the Labour Court has complied with the statutory process, based on the statutory report, I am compelled to accept the recommendation. If I or the Minister is not satisfied, the proposal must be returned to the Labour Court explaining why it was not accepted. There is no role for me or any Minister to engage with the recommendation itself.

This SEO will provide for increased rates of hourly pay for workers in the construction sector from 18 September 2023, as well as amendments to minimum pension contributions. Further increases in pay will commence from 5 August 2024. From 18 September craftspeople will see their minimum hourly rate increase to €21.49. Workers in category A, including those with an advanced scaffolding card and who have four years experience, bank operatives, steel fixers, crane drivers and heavy machine operators will receive €20.86 per hour. Workers in category B, skilled general operatives with more than two years experience, will receive €19.35 per hour. I have considered this draft recommendation in line with the terms of the 2015 Act, relying on the statutory report outlining the Labour Court’s deliberative process. I am satisfied the court has complied with its statutory role. Accordingly, my Department notified the Labour Court on 17 April that I accepted the recommendation and that I would be referring the matter to the Houses of Oireachtas, as required by the Act, for their consideration. Furthermore, as required, a draft order was laid before the Houses on 5 April 2023.

Similar to my own role, the 2015 Act also states that the Houses of the Oireachtas may only accept or reject the draft order as it is presented to them. The committee or Oireachtas cannot amend or alter the draft order. If the Houses accept the recommendation, as I hope they will, I will sign a statutory instrument giving effect to this decision. Should the Houses reject or fail to approve the draft order, the proposal for the SEO fails.

I will say a few words about how this SEO came about. The application for an examination came before the Labour Court from application by the Building and Allied Trades Union; Connect Trade Union; Operative Plasterers and Allied Trades Society of Ireland, OPATSI; SIPTU; and UNITE the Union, as per section 14 of Chapter 3 of Part 2 of the Industrial Relations (Amendment) Act 2015. The five unions requested that the Labour Court examine the terms and conditions of those employed in the construction sector as craftspeople, construction operatives and apprentices. Included in this was any sick pay scheme or pension scheme.

Having examined the submissions and the accompanying supporting materials, the Labour Court reported that it was satisfied that the applicants were substantially representative of the workers of the particular class, type or group in the economic sector in respect of which the request is expressed to apply. This allowed the court to proceed with the examination. The court then, as it is required to do, published its intention to undertake an examination of the unions’ request and invited submissions from interested persons. Written submissions were received from four stakeholders: the construction industry committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, the Construction Industry Federation, the Irish Plant Contractors Association and the Construction Workers' Pension Scheme. No parties objected to the making of an SEO. These submissions are available for anyone to examine on the Labour Court’s website.

A public hearing was held on 13 February. All interested parties were given an opportunity to be heard and to engage with the required policy considerations. Having considered the matter fully within the time limits, the Labour Court made a recommendation to me.According to its report, the court has considered the factors set out in section 16(2) of the Act. This includes the potential impact of the SEO on employment, unemployment levels and competitiveness, and that the order would be binding on all workers and employers in the construction sector. I understand the court’s report has been shared with the members of this committee, so they have had the opportunity to examine it in greater detail. It is also available on the Department’s website.

I hope the committee will accept the draft SEO, given its importance in ensuring industrial relations stability in this sector. I know the committee recognises that Ireland needs a competitive, productive and sustainable construction sector for the delivery of high quality and affordable homes and commercial properties, as well as our national physical infrastructure. I believe this SEO plays a significant role in supporting the construction sector through maintaining harmonious industrial relations. The terms of the SEO refer merely to the minimum rates of pay and terms and conditions. At times when the sector is performing well, it is fair to expect that most employers will exceed these minimum rates. The importance of an SEO is to ensure that in times of downturns, workers are properly protected and the sector maintains its attractiveness as a profession for apprentices.

It has been a longstanding practice of the trade unions and employers in the construction sector to enter into collective agreements that govern the terms and conditions of employment. These arrangements have been in place for many decades and have provided the industry with cost certainty and stability. The original SEO, made in 2019, also provides for a dispute resolution mechanism, which helps in preventing industrial unrest.

Should the committee approve this order, I will sign an order giving it legal effect. Its terms will be binding across the entire sector. The new order will become effective on 18 September. It will remain in place for two years and includes a second minimum remuneration increase in 2024.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the Minister of State and I understand it is his first time at this committee. He will be glad to know we are a nice committee and I am sure his officials will confirm that. I thank the Minister of State's officials for all their work on this.

The SEO is supported by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and the trade union movement more broadly. I support the SEO in as much as it has been decided by the workers themselves that this is what they want. I have some concerns and some of those do not relate to the SEO but to the mechanism of enforcement. The Workplace Relations Commission, WRC's, inspectors do not have a specific responsibility to enforce SEOs. We can cut and paste my biannual rant about the number of WRC inspectors into this and there are not enough of them but even if there were enough of them they do not have enough powers.

We have seen what can happen when workers' rights are disrespected and the Minister of State will know I raised the Iceland issue with an Taoiseach and he said the Minister of State would come back to me. I know the Minister of State will do so but I hope that will be sooner rather than later. However, there are other areas and bogus self-employment, for example, is a handy way to get around an SEO. It is tough to prove it but the WRC inspectors are not coming in to look for that. What concerns me is not the SEO but conditions that render the SEO inoperable or useless to workers. It is an important floor and that should be stated. To be fair to the Minister of State he stated in his submission that it represents the minimum and that it is not the maximum or a target. It is the minimum as exists.

There is an unfair advantage given to employers that do not pay the rate and we saw that in the case of the Murphy 4, which I raised this morning. They went out to get the recognised rate for the job and Unite the Union would contend that they were sacked from their work for trade union activity on the basis that they have found it nearly impossible to get work and also virtually impossible to get social welfare. As long as the capacity exists to go around these mechanisms, they are effective but their capacity to be effective is incredibly limited.

We need a thriving construction sector and we need men and women to be able to build houses. We know that according to the Housing for All progress report, action point 14.6 states that the Government has an ambition to deliver a number of international recruitment events for construction workers. People coming to work here may be ignorant of their rights and entitlements and in those cases an SEO is even more important. Particularly now that it is a stated aim of Government to recruit from abroad, an SEO for the construction sector is extremely important but it is useless without the capacity to be able to enforce it.

We know about Iceland, we know about the Murphy 4 and it is the same with Tesco; they are changing the rosters on their workers. There are mechanisms in place but there is a growing sense that employers can act with impunity now, which should not happen. When we have a lack of enforceability from an SEO, this reinforces the idea that employers can do what they like. I have written to the Project Point Technologies lad in Iceland and I have not even had the courtesy of a response. For me, that kind of atmosphere underlines the absolute need for an SEO, which I do not dispute.

There are few mechanisms to support it. When everyone agrees then the rate gets paid but only because everyone agrees. We have a situation whereby other regulated employment agreements are down in the courts being challenged. I understand the status challenge and that but that is being held up and the application of the correct rate of pay in the security sector is being held up by legal cases. All of these things mean we need sectoral employment orders and registered employment agreements as they are mainstays of trade union activity. Can the Minister of State talk to me about enforcement? Enforcement is where I see that we have a serious issue.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I am heartened to hear that the Deputy not only thinks this is a nice committee to come to but, crucially, I am heartened to hear her broad support and welcome for this SEO. That is the most important thing to put on record. We have had a couple of discussions in the Chamber so far on issues similar to this, be they through oral parliamentary questions or Topical Issues, and I apologise for my absence this morning. I was in a meeting with the trade union movement, as the Deputy can appreciate. It was a statutory meeting that I was required to attend. We will continue to have those discussions and enforcement is key to this.

I fundamentally believe this SEO is a good thing for the construction sector. It is good for workers and employers and it is vital to the continuing progress of our economy. The Deputy correctly mentioned the Government's intention to encourage people from outside the European Union to come to Ireland and there is a good reason for that. We are attracting key talent to fill clear gaps. We make it clear that if any work permits are being granted for people coming from outside the European Union there will be strict responsibilities on the employer to protect those coming from outside because, sadly, in our past we have unfortunately seen too many cases where there has been abuse, be it in accommodation, pay or conditions. We will always work, be it with the Migrants Rights Centre Ireland or other bodies, to make sure workers are protected in the construction sector and beyond if they are coming from overseas. Last year saw 30,000 people come from within the European Union to Ireland and more than 40,000 people came from without the European Union to work here, which is considerably more than the number who left the country for work reasons.

On this particular matter, the WRC and the role of inspectors of the WRC, the mechanisms for enforcements under this SEO are quite clear. They are the same as the 2019 mechanisms and the Deputy will agree that those mechanisms are solid and when they work, they work well for employee and employer alike. I take on board the Deputy's concerns on resourcing for the WRC in terms of providing adequate numbers of inspectors. We would have had a meeting with Connect Trade Union prior to this, in parallel on the issue of bogus self-employment, which the Deputy raised prior to my time coming into office. We discussed the issues where that occurs and we also discussed how it is a system that certain workers choose to pursue as they feel they do better out of being self-employed. Those workers have the right to identify as self-employed so that status should not necessarily be seen as bogus. It is clear that we need to use those mechanisms but we need to ensure it is done in a balanced way that protects workers. It is crucial that within this SEO we will meet the responsibilities in terms of need for enforcement and in resources in terms of inspectors for the WRC, and I undertake to do that.

I will go slightly off script on two areas the Deputy brought up, including the Iceland workers. I appreciate the correspondence I have received from the Deputy on that and I know she raised it with the Taoiseach during Questions on Promised Legislation, after which I got a swift phone call from him asking me to get onto this. I have already done so and my Department and officials have already engaged in this area. We will bring the Deputy into that process when it is appropriate because we need to get the full facts. I know there was a protest held by some of the Deputy's colleagues outside a specific store in Cork a number of weeks ago, which was brought to our attention as well. We are well aware of these issues and we want to make sure that workers in every store, regardless of the sector, are protected and that their rights are enshrined and maintained.

On the security sector, all of these things are done on a voluntary basis and people always have a right to go to the courts. We have to recognise the rights of employee and employer alike but where the State believes it is fundamentally in the right it will challenge any such injunctions or anything else, which we have done in that situation.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that but there is something more that the State could do. If the Minister of State is talking about the regulation employment agreement that exists within the security sector, he is also talking about the same people who are down in the courts trying to frustrate this process being in receipt of lucrative Government contracts. A time is coming when the State will have to recognise its power in this area and not the soft power of legislating for voluntary arrangements, which is fine. The State is a big spender and purchaser of services and it really angers people when they see a company that is in dispute over the base minimum terms and entitlements under a registered employment agreement. On the one hand those employers are engaging, to a degree, with the third part industrial relations machinery that is funded by the State, and then on the other hand they are getting Government contracts. People cannot understand that and I cannot understand it. I find that practice to be abhorrent.

I take issue with what the Minister of State said about self-employment. I could not tell the Minister of State the number of times, particularly when representing home helps-----

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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There is one issue I wanted to raise with the Minister of State.

The Minister of State said that workers sometimes choose that. Workers may choose to be self-employed, which is fine, but workers do not choose what companies bogusly characterise them as self-employed. They just do not. When I was representing home helps, when we went to the court, every employer that came in would say that the women - whom they referred to as "the girls" in some cases despite the fact that most would never see 50 again - like the flexibility. I want to tell the Minister of State that workers like stability. They like to know their rosters, their terms and conditions and their wages because, like everybody else, they have to be able to plan. That is important. Employers will tell you that workers like the flexibility but people do not. People like stability. That is what workers want.

With regard to Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, inspectors, is the Minister of State open to a discussion as to how their role could be expanded into enforcing regulated employment orders? We now have a situation whereby one very prominent employment order is being held up. The message goes out to employers that this is just voluntary if they do not want it. I know how much time and effort goes into these. The Minister of State has described the process. A lot of time and effort goes into coming up with these agreements, the intention being that, when they are done, you can walk out saying that a floor and minimum rates have now been established. However, when people are here on work permits, they are very often here long enough to do the work and, in some instances, although I am not saying in all instances, perhaps long enough to be exploited but not long enough to learn about their rights. The WRC must have the capacity and the resources to uphold these agreements. Otherwise, those workers, who are especially vulnerable, are left in an even more vulnerable situation.

I hope we will have occasion to discuss not only how more resources can be provided to the WRC, which is absolutely essential, but how WRC inspectors can be given additional powers. Unfortunately, this will also mean that more resources will be needed because, if the WRC is to be given more work, more people will be needed to do that work. Already, there are not enough people in the WRC. If you are an unscrupulous employer, you know how unlikely it is that you are going to be inspected. Without additional resources and additional powers, we will all be back in a room saying that regulated employment agreements are a good idea, that they are arrived at by consensus and that the majority of employers and workers want them but that the teeth necessary to enforce them are lacking.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Absolutely. The strength of this sectoral employment order, SEO, is that it has the agreement of employers and employees alike. They recognise that this is the bare minimum. Employers know this is the bare minimum they need to attract people into professions that are grossly understaffed at the moment, both domestically and from elsewhere. However, they only work if they are fully and totally applied and recognised by all parties. I agree with the Deputy that the practice of 0.1% of employers who undermine this system and who go below the minimum rates is abhorrent. As a Minister of State, I fundamentally agree with the Deputy on the need to make sure these orders are upheld and enforced. I would be more than happy to engage with the Deputy and other parties, both within this room and beyond, in looking at the role of the WRC and its inspectors, at the resourcing of the WRC and at the powers given to inspectors to ensure these minimum rates - and I will stress a couple of times today that these are minimum rates - are enforced. They are a very clear reflection of the skills that are on display, skills that are vital not only to our economy, but to our society.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister of State and his officials. This is his first visit here. I hope it is the first of many. I recognise the procedure in the Labour Court that is under discussion today and all the bodies who made presentations to that court. It is a very interesting and effective way of reaching agreement with respect to minimum rates of basic pay. In his submission, the Minister of State made the point that these are minimum hourly rates of basic pay. Everywhere we go, people across the board tell us that we are at full employment. Most sectors have problems getting workers. I hope this will assist in that regard. These are the minimum rates of pay. Has the Department done any research into whether employers are offering more in order to attract workers? I have been told that is happening in some cases where there is competition between employers. It is good that we have a floor that is agreed by all sides but there is competition out there.

Will the Minister of State confirm that any operations based outside the State are also covered by this? How do we compare with Northern Ireland? Do the workers of companies that are based there but who are themselves here have to be paid in the same way? Deputy O'Reilly mentioned migrants and people coming in from abroad. The Minister of State might also comment on that.

One area that has recently been brought to my attention and that I raised by way of parliamentary question a little while ago is that of mechanics. There is a chronic shortage of mechanics at the moment, especially in the haulage industry. It is so severe that some firms are talking about having to reduce operations or close down completely. It seems mechanics are not eligible to be brought in from abroad under the work permits list. They are actually ineligible. I really contend that they should be on the critical list. That should be changed. That is a matter of serious urgency. I have had conversations with the Minister of State about this offline. Will he take it back to the Department and see if something can be done as a matter of urgency here because we do not want to see firms closing down and people losing their jobs because trucks cannot be maintained? Of course, we also know how important the haulage industry is to the economy generally. Almost all the goods we have here in the country are exported or imported by way of trucks. It is very important.

Will the Minister of State comment on the impact of inflation? From the briefing notes, I understand that inflation is a concern for workers. It is important and everyone agrees that we have to increase wages to match it or to at least address it in some way or other. I know it is coming down and I hope it will come down faster but the cost of living is an issue.

I will ask another question and then let the Minister of State in, although I might come back with more questions afterwards. The situation regarding apprentices, hiring apprentices and encouraging young people to take up apprenticeships, especially in the construction sector, is a matter of concern. Many people seem to think they have to go on to third level and do a degree. I know the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science is doing a lot of work in this respect but, with respect to the Minister of State's own role in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, will he comment on apprenticeships and how what we are doing today will encourage more young people to take up roles as plumbers, carpenters, electricians, plasterers or other positions in that space? I will come back in again after the Minister of State has responded.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy very much. I will try to address each of the points raised. The Deputy's first and last points come to the same conclusion, that is, how we attract people into the construction sector to build the homes we so desperately need, the roads, such as the one in Mallow, we so desperately need and so much else beyond. With regard to apprenticeships more specifically, the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science and the Minister, Deputy Harris, have done an awful lot of work to bring apprenticeships within the CAO system and to make them a far more attractive destination for many school leavers or, indeed, those who are looking to change career or retrain or reskill for various reasons at any given stage of life.

The SEO under discussion today does two things. It provides clear rates for apprentices. A category A worker will receive 33.3% of the craft rate in year 1, 50% in year 2, 75% in year 3 and 90% in year 4, so there is good remuneration for apprentices. The SEO also demonstrates that the very minimum salary expectations for people entering professions such as those of scaffolder and heavy machine operator represent a really decent starting salary that is considerably higher than the overall national minimum wage and what is identified by as a living wage. These are just minimums. The Deputy asked whether any research had been done into whether these rates are actually the rates paid in the sector. I challenge him to find a scaffolder who is working at this rate. Most are working at much higher rates. Unfortunately, that is the nature of the very tight labour market we are seeing at the moment. One of the consequences of having effective full employment is that much more power is in the hands of the employee with regard to seeking higher wages.

The market is competitive and we see people move from site to site or from job to job searching for better pay, conditions, or for the level of stability referred to by Deputy Louise O'Reilly. In terms of operators based outside the State, if they come here to work they will be expected to meet the terms and conditions of operating in the State, including salaries. That is, if they come to the State for a decent period of time. If someone just comes to do a day's work it is difficult to work out the salary based on that but if an Irish company is sending their own workers to work outside the site, offshore, or something like that it would of course be expected to meet the obligations of the sectoral employment order, SEO.

The impact of inflation has obviously been taken into account as part of this because it concerns all workers, not just those in the construction sector. That is why we have seen so many measures such as more than €12 billion of direct intervention by the State in the last budget and many more measures for workers such as increasing the minimum wage level and an ambition to reach the living wage in due course. The measures also look at areas such as the cost of childcare, public transport, short-term energy spikes and everything like that to provide sustainable supports that will allow people to overcome the worst of the cost-of-living measures. For those who are not working or are not in a position to work, there are the three different welfare payments that will be made this week for people with disabilities, carers, pensioners or those on a working family support payment.

Regarding the chronic shortage of mechanics across the State in every sector, this is something that I have received representations on not just from the Deputy. I have received them from Deputies all across the country, from Dublin, Mayo, Cork, Donegal and Westmeath about the need to get mechanics into general workshops and garages but also particularly in the haulage sector. We have a distinct shortage of people in every work category at the moment but mechanics and drivers in the heavy goods vehicles, HGV, sector is an acute concern. Not only does it feed into the overall labour shortage but it has a knock-on effect on Brexit. I did not think I would be back talking about Brexit so soon but it is quite clear that the post-Brexit changes to cabotage and supply chain management in the UK have had a major effect on logistics in this country as well. We are absolutely looking for more haulage drivers to come from the prescribed countries. I think that more than 300 work permits were issued last year to qualified drivers from South Africa. There are options in other countries and we will examine that list. In terms of the specifics of moving mechanics from the ineligible list, the process of the critical skills list is under review. We have a traffic light system of green, amber or red and so moving someone from red to amber, or indeed from red straight to green, is under consideration. I welcome representations, not just from individual Members of the Oireachtas but crucially from those in the sector who can demonstrate quite clearly that they cannot find work, not just in Ireland but also within the UK and across the European Union. There are sectors where staff can come in on a basis, be it short term or longer term, from within the European Union. More than 30,000 workers from EU member states came to Ireland last year for professional reasons. When we look at other countries that could supply mechanics, be it Brazil or other countries outside the European Economic Area, EEA, it is something that we will look at but on an evidence basis and I agree, anecdotally, there is a shortage. There is a huge waiting time to get a car serviced at a garage or to get an appointment for a national car test, NCT, so we do and will bear that in mind.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State for his response and reiterate the issue with respect to mechanics. I will write to him about this matter and I am sure others will also. It is critical and it is urgent. That is the information I have. Will the Minister of State comment on the costs of travelling to work? It was an issue that I think was a little bit contentious and there was a lot of discussion on it so will he clarify the situation please?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Stanton and I appreciate his comments about mechanics. They are well received and will be actioned. Regarding travel, provisions for travel time were requested by some parties. The Labour Court has declined to provide it in the SEO. Unfortunately, this is not a matter for me but it is for the Labour Court and its justification is in its own hands; we will have to go by its report and recommendations.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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Very briefly in the time available I would like to say I welcome this. We have acute supply problems in the construction sector and the solutions to those lie with skills, permits, technology, and of course wages. These increases are encouraging. It is also encouraging to see that in the past 12 months the numbers at work in construction are up by more than 22,000, and by 40,000 from the low point so we are definitely making headway in this sector. What is the Minister of State's perception of the tightness of the labour market in construction? What other initiatives might be considered apart from the wages and permits regime the Minister of State has in place? Are there things we could consider, in particular technology where we were told that the approach to construction is not fully exploiting the capacity to build more efficiently and effectively? Does the Minister of State's Department have a role in the knowledge transfer that might supplement this measure?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Bruton and I appreciate that. It is heartening to see the increase in numbers of people opting to work in the construction sector. There are still a number of concerns. Only 9% of people working in the sector are women and we can do a lot more than that, if we look at other countries beyond the EU who have done so much to incentivise women into the trades and onto building sites. There are particular projects that are a culmination between Intreo offices and Dublin City Council which are a real template for other local authorities to follow around the country in terms of encouraging apprentices but also working again with the Minister, Deputy Harris's Department in terms of training. There are advanced and very clear technological solutions within construction to maximise the potential for more efficient practices within construction, using the latest and most efficient form of machinery to develop that. That requires skills and skills are the key to everything for a small open economy like Ireland. We need to ensure we reward highly-skilled, highly-trained workers with minimum salaries like in the SEO that are reflective of their talent, but also with the opportunities to access that continuous training. That requires bringing together the construction sector with the education and training boards and other State bodies to ensure certification and qualifications are not just a one-time thing. We want to ensure that someone does not simply do a four-year apprenticeship and enter the workforce for the next 30 or 40 years but will constantly upskill and up-train. Harnessing those new and growing technologies offers the greatest level of potential and opportunity for people within the sector.

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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There are a number of issues with the sectoral employment order that has been proposed for construction. First, on a cost-of-living point the proposal is for a 1.9% increase in September of this year, to be followed by a 3.5% increase in August of next year. Breaking that down, it equates to a pay increase of 40 cent per hour, or €16 per week, in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis. Inflation is more than 7%, the price of basic essential items such as foodstuff etc. is rising at a faster rate than that. I do not think it is a sufficient pay increase given the cost-of-living pressures that bear down on working people in general, and construction workers in this instance.

I also point to the fact that a package for developers was announced yesterday which in my view amounts to a gift of €1 billion from the State, from the taxpayer, to developers in the hope this money will be used to build more housing. On top of the profits already being made a top-up is being paid by the taxpayer and that is in a context not just for looking at housing output but also looking at the wages paid to construction workers. That is a 1.9% increase this year at the same time as developers have €1 billion flowing their way.

I am informed that there is a group of subcontractors who will attempt to challenge the sectoral employment orders, SEO, and quite possibly, challenge them in the courts. This points to the need for workers in the construction sector to organise. They should organise, on the one hand to stop wages being dragged downwards, and also to ensure that the 1.9% and 3.5% are merely a base from which they push on to improve their wages and conditions through trade union organisation and so on.

I make one final point to the Minister of State because it is an important issue. It is good that we are having the debate and the discussion in the committee today, but the discussion should be brought onto the floor of the House. We need more, not less, debate on the cost of living. Proposed wage increases for workers in a key sector of the economy, which set a certain guideline or indication for other groups of workers as well, is a key cost-of-living issue now. Let us have the discussion on the debate, not just at the committee here but on the floor of the Dáil. I ask the Minister of State's opinion as to whether he would support that as a proposal.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Barry, as ever, for his intervention. There are a couple of points I will address because, respectfully, I think he is cherry-picking much of what we are trying to do here this morning. Let us be fair; these are about minimum rates. This is not setting salaries within the construction sector; these are very basic and minimum rates. If he goes through the categories, professions and skills that are detailed in this, I challenge him to find any worker that is receiving solely the minimum rates. It is very important when you talk about a 5% increase in minimum rates, to also reflect that these rates are considerably higher. They are over €10 higher in most cases than the national minimum wage. When we look at salaries in this sector, it should be borne in mind that salaries within the construction sector are, on average, 5.5% greater than national salaries and they are 11.5% greater than private sector salaries. These are good jobs paying good salaries for good, much needed work. I note Deputy Barry's comments. I am unwilling to comment on hypotheticals but he talks about his belief that certain subcontractors will attempt to challenge the SEO and is correct to talk about the importance of organisation within labour but this was a fully consultative process taken out under statutory obligation. There was full support from the trade unions that engaged with this process for it. The trade union movement and the workers' representatives support this. This is good for employees and employers and it is good for our economy and our society. Crucially, it will help deliver more people to build the homes we so desperately need. We are in the middle of an acute housing crisis that needs support and that needs every possible measure to be taken. That means more people working in construction and it means removing barriers and bureaucracy and, indeed, rising costs in construction be they due to increased energy, materials, and so much else.

I have an obligation as Minister of State, to receive the recommendation of the Labour Court to move a motion without debate, which I did yesterday in the Dáil and to come before the relevant sectoral committee to lay out the rationale behind the order and to field questions where possible. Ultimately, I will bring it before the Seanad tomorrow where I presume Senator Ahearn will be talking to that, and indeed Senator Crowe who is online. That is my obligation. If the Deputy is of a mind to put down a Topical Issue debate on this, of course I will take it, but my obligations as set out and my requirements are quite clear and that is what I am here to meet.

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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Very briefly, I welcome the Minister of State's comments about the importance of the organisation of labour. I am aware of the position of the workers' representatives with regard to the SEO and I am aware that they are minimum rates. I will stress this point again that it is a matter of great importance that workers organise, organise, and organise again within construction so that these increases are not the end of the matter but are merely a starting point for wider increases that these workers who play such a key role in our economy deserve. Finally, there should be a full debate in the Dáil on this and we will be pressing again for that.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister of State to the committee for the first time. I wish him well in his new role and look forward to working with him over the next two years hopefully. The point he made from the very start is to recognise that this is a minimum rate. Certainly from the people I know in Tipperary who work in the construction sector, an awful lot of them would be on a higher rate than this rate in particular. I am aware of the concerns that have been raised by other members here this morning on pay. I feel this is more of an issue in other sectors such as hospitality. In construction, certainly from my experience of speaking to workers, pay is quite good or very good. There are a number of factors for that obviously, one being the challenge of getting people into the sector at the moment. That can be seen from the number of people coming through on work permits to work in construction here. I certainly do not see that as an issue and I would appreciate the Minister of State's thoughts on that.

In the two and a half years he was in the role, our Taoiseach and former Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, made an awful lot of changes to support workers' rights. I ask the Minister of State to touch on how he sees his role in following on from what was done in terms of workers' rights, whether it is sick pay legislation, a new public holiday, the right to disconnect, rights about redundancies for people who were laid off during the pandemic, or better protection rights for tips. I know some of those are not related to construction but they are related to workers' rights and pay and conditions, and that is in addition to changes that have been made to pay and tax thresholds. I would like to get the Minister of State's sense, over the next number of years in his role, of how he feels he can follow on from what the Taoiseach did while he was Minister.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Definitely within the construction sector and more widely, the Senator is right that pay is not the immediate concern. We are setting minimum rights at a time that is very different perhaps from before. It is a time when the economy is going very well. Activity in the construction sector is as high as can be but it can and needs to be a lot more. When we are putting these thresholds or basic minimums in place, this is to bear in mind that things will not always be going so well for the economy and that there are natural ebbs and flows. Over the past five years alone we have dealt with concerns from the impact of Brexit, a global pandemic, the likes of which we have not seen for a century, a vicious and brutal war in Ukraine and the knock-on effects in terms of a very acute rise in cost-of-living issues. There are also energy increases which are impacting every western democracy to be honest; we are not an individual outlier on this. Where we have a unique strength as an economy and a society is when we look at the indicators. Compared to all other EU member states, we will have the fastest growing economy next year; we will have proportionately the highest budgetary surplus; and we have the highest number of people at work in the history of our State at 2.57 million people, which is colossal. Without giving away mine or the Senator's age, when we left university there were not many options for us. He went on a boat and I went to Belgium. Unfortunately, that is where many of our generation found themselves because they simply left college with nowhere to work. Thankfully, and with respect to the action plan for jobs of the then Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, and later, Minister for Enterprise and Employment, Deputy Bruton, that is not the case for so many people who came after us.

When we look at those supports and at making sure that people getting a job is the first and foremost priority of an enterprise strategy, this ensures that those jobs and employment options are good and worthwhile jobs which more than 70,000 people came to Ireland last year to be part of. This is not just because they are going into jobs in the dynamic sectors - like technology, life sciences, pharma, the construction field building pharmaceutical plants and the homes workers will live in, or on the roads or the public transport mechanisms - but because they are working under good conditions with good basic minimum rates such as what we are laying out this morning. This also builds on the very many areas that have already been pushed through in legislation by the current Taoiseach, and indeed by my predecessor, Deputy English. I do not know how many times I was on the backbenches of the Dáil in the past year speaking to legislation being taken by Deputy English who was a Minister of State in this Department.

It was something I always took great pleasure in because these are good and ambitious measures. We have built on them, particularly when it comes to statutory sick pay and building up what it covers and going from three to five to ten days. I hope that more widely in the budgetary process we will see a greater return for workers as we go into pre-budgetary discussions over the coming weeks. We should make sure that our workforce remains officially, according to the UN, the happiest workforce in the world.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State. He touched on employment creation. I am thinking back to when Deputy Bruton became Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment and he promised to create 100,000 jobs in five years. I am not sure many of us believed it was possible when we campaigned but now we are in the position that since 2011, 800,000 jobs have been created in this country. This was started by Deputy Bruton. We went from 1.8 million to almost 2.6 million jobs. I do not expect the Minister of State to follow with another 800,000 jobs but it is important to recognise where we have come from and where we are.

I have several points on which I want to get the opinion of the Minister of State. One relates to people with disabilities in the workforce, another is yesterday's announcement on changes to housing and this touches on construction workers having job security. In Tipperary I see a lot of construction workers working for developers building one-off houses here and there. They end up moving from developer to developer. In a number of the changes announced yesterday I see an opportunity for the construction sector to have certainty about building more houses over a period of time, which will give certainty to workers with regard to staying with a builder for a longer period of time rather than moving from one builder to another. I would like to get the thoughts of the Minister of State on the measures announced yesterday and how they will support workers in the construction sector.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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The Senator's time is running out.

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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I just have a brief comment on this.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Will you want a response?

Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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One of the challenges we have is that we are the lowest in Europe in terms of creating employment for people with disabilities. The construction sector could play a role in providing employment in this area to try to get us to the European average. What does the Minister of State think we could do in this regard? He can come back to this after answering someone else's questions if needs be.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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With the Chair's indulgence, we are seeing an increasing amount of certainty in the construction sector. People are going into work on jobs that are two, three or four years in duration on site. There are individual contractors, subcontractors and people working directly for developers and in-house. We see this not only in housing but in the commercial sector with large-scale building. We speak of developments in pharmaceuticals and the tech industry. These are great opportunities which will be complemented by the sectoral employment order because people will know when they go into these roles to fill these contracts that they have very good minimum rates that will not be changing as well as all of the other employment rights and benefits that Senator Ahearn has mentioned.

When we are running at a 4.2% unemployment rate it takes every measure possible to meet the workforce needs. This means looking into those who are long-term unemployed and those who are not in a position to work but would like to work and need the workplace to be more welcoming and open to them. Much of this can be due to issues regarding flexibility, such as with regard to caring for a relative or a loved one, and maximising the potential of those with disabilities. In the past month I had a very productive meeting with Senator Conway and the National Council for the Blind of Ireland. Its representatives spoke about its new apprenticeship programme in the retail sector for those with vision loss and difficulties. This is a good model that we will be looking to a lot more to maximise the working age population and get to people who are still underrepresented in the workforce and in certain sectors. Certainly the varied skilled and unskilled roles in the construction sector offer great opportunities.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Thanks to Senator Ahearn and the Minister of State I thought I was sitting in on an episode of "This Is Your Life" for Deputy Bruton.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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You are definitely showing your age now.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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He would deserve one. The sectoral employment order is very welcome. As the Minister of State alluded to, it is not for today but it is probably something that will safeguard the sector in future. The economy is buoyant with regard to opportunities for workers at present and it is very much a workers' market.

I want to discuss a specific point with regard to apprentices. They are probably falling through the cracks at present. Typically those on a four-year apprenticeship are on €250 a week. I will take the specific case of electricians living in rural Ireland. They must attend a college module so invariably they have to have transport. They have to get a car or van to go to and from work. They probably have the added cost of accommodation when they take on the college module. As with many cases, when people come to us in constituency offices with these issues we turn to the Department of Social Protection to look for a one-off supplementary welfare allowance payment. Unfortunately as they earn €250 they are nominally over the threshold for such a payment and nothing can be done for them.

This probably straddles two Departments because it is as much the responsibility of the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science Deputy Harris as it is of the Minister of State. Is there an opportunity or capacity to look at an interim cost-of-living measure specifically for apprentices given that it has to be nigh on impossible to operate on €250 a week? A number of people have come to me in recent weeks who are considering dropping out of the apprenticeship and emigrating. This would be a huge disappointment for us. It would also be a loss for us as a nation because we have invested in these people and we want to keep them in the country. It is something that we have to look at in terms of an immediate and short-term fix for apprenticeships.

An increasing number of apprentices are probably exiting specifically for this reason. It is too punitive for them to maintain the apprenticeship. It is coming down to a cost issue. Approximately 20 young apprentices working in a number of sectors have come to me. None of them cites issues with their employers. It is all about the cost of getting to college and the cost of keeping themselves functioning with everything else. I appreciate the cost of diesel and fuel is reducing but suppliers tell us it will increase again towards the winter. This is when this issue will come to a head because this is when most of them will be back in their college modules. I would welcome the thoughts of the Minister of State on this. Is there an opportunity to do something, even if it is a one-off measure, to help those apprentices?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Flaherty. The first response I will give is on my specific responsibilities and the terms of this sectoral employment order, which sets increases on the hourly rate for apprentices. It provides a very clear indication, as I referred to when responding to Deputy Stanton, that those choosing a career in any of these crafts or trades can rely on to have a very decent and good salary as a basic minimum. These are salaries that have the potential to allow people to bring home extremely high incomes in due course. This is for the medium term. In the short term we want to make every effort to increase the number of people going for apprenticeships and increase the number of people who, after going through the apprenticeship process, stay in this country and contribute to the economy and provide a return to society.

In further education more generally we have seen a number of measures from the Minister, Deputy Harris on college fees, SUSI grants and on-campus accommodation to try to address the very real concerns. Parallel to apprentices, one third of third-level students have said they feel serious financial pressures. This is one third too many and every effort must be made to reduce this and keep them in further and higher education.

I am very open to the suggestion on a potential one-off measure to look at the thresholds of a supplementary welfare allowance payment. Deputy Flaherty spoke about straddling two Departments. We are probably straddling five Departments and we need to get into a discussion with regard to social protection, public expenditure and finance but this is what is required. It is about having a whole-of-government approach to home building. This is what it comes down to. We need more homes in the State. We need more homes, be they in Longford, Tipperary, Cork or Dublin. We need homes of all natures, including private, social and affordable, duplex, apartment, one-off houses, estates and everything else. We need them and we need people to build them. We need people to be in a position to complete their apprenticeships and perhaps take the option of moving career from one sector into the construction sector, perhaps to a good salary.

Every effort that can be made by every Government Department should be made. I will take on the Deputy's recommendation and bring it to the Minister for Justice, Deputy Harris and the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Humphreys and see, in the context of budgetary considerations, if it can be added to the budget in the autumn, whether on a one-off or capital expenditure basis.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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It could be done through the community welfare offices by way of a supplementary welfare allowance, SWA. If it could be a one-off payment that is included in the budget, with payment scheduled for October or November, that would be a lifeline for many of those young apprentices. I would appreciate it if the Minister of State could follow through on that.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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As nobody else is indicating, I will pose a number of questions myself. The Minister of State, in responding to Deputy Flaherty, spoke about a whole-of-government approach to unemployment. Hopefully we will reach full employment across the State soon. I represent Limerick and seven of the top ten unemployment blackspots are in my city. Has there been any discussion on this? The Minister of State has said that this is not the sole responsibility of his Department and that it crosses other Departments as well. Has there been any discussion about getting to full employment across the State and making sure that communities like those I represent are not left behind, as they were during the so-called Celtic tiger period? Have there been any discussions about particularly targeting those areas? I want to put on the record my appreciation for the really great work that has been done recently by the Limerick Regeneration programme involving local schools and community centres in the four regeneration areas as well as businesses across the mid west. Huge numbers of businesses have held jobs fairs in the regeneration areas. There was one in Moyross last week and three other areas are scheduled to hold fairs too. Has there been any discussion at Government level on that?

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy may be aware that I was in Limerick on Monday. I had meetings in the city with the Local Enterprise Office, LEO, and a number of business representative groups including the Limerick Chamber of Commerce, the Small Firms Association, SFA , and others. In 2022, more than 2,000 new jobs were created in Limerick city and county, supported by various State agencies including Enterprise Ireland, IDA Ireland and the LEO. In terms of job creation across the State, the mid-west region is doing well. We are seeing new jobs being created in every region and there is no Dublin-centric or urban-centric point of view at work.

I recognise the crucial work of the Limerick Regeneration project. Its work has been going on for years and I know that Deputy Quinlivan has contributed to that, steadfastly, as a public representative, both in the Dáil and previously as a member of Limerick City Council. There is a huge responsibility on my Department to work with local bodies, local State agencies such as the Intreo office and local bodies like Limerick Regeneration to identify perceived blackspots or what I would see as areas of huge opportunity. We are at full employment in this State and we need everyone who is in a position to work to be working. Ideally, I would like them to be working at building homes but they need to be working in every sector of the economy. There is increased scope to look at where the opportunities lie, including in the blackspot areas in Limerick referenced by Deputy Quinlivan and certain parts of Dublin's north inner city. The latter area also had a really successful taskforce which was set up by the former Taoiseach, Deputy Enda Kenny, with contributions from the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, Deputy Donohoe. I am also thinking of new initiatives that have taken root and have started to deliver in places like Drogheda and the south-west inner city area of Dublin. There is a template there that can work. However, templates can only work if they treat every part of the country fairly and equitably.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you very much. That concludes our consideration of the matter before us today and I propose that the committee requests the clerk to the committee to inform the Dáil and the Seanad accordingly. Is that agreed? Agreed.