Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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We are in public session. I have received apologies from Deputy Clarke. I wish to refer briefly to the ongoing matter of Covid-19. I ask all those present in the committee room to exercise an element of personal responsibility in order to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19. I welcome the members of the committee and acknowledge that the post Covid-19 regulation regarding members appearing online stands.

By way of reminder to members and guests the meeting is somewhat a hybrid insofar as some members are online, as well as Deputies Brady and Stanton and Senators Wilson and Joe O'Reilly who are with us in person. I welcome Her Excellency, Ms Larysa Gerasko, Ambassador of Ukraine to Ireland and also Her Excellency, Ms Larisa Miculet, Ambassador of Moldova to Ireland. The purpose of the meeting, as we approach the anniversary of the unacceptable and unlawful act of aggression, that being the invasion of Ukraine, is to receive and hear an update from the ambassadors in regard to their own countries.

I welcome to our Public Gallery Ambassador Anna Sochañska, Ambassador of Poland to Ireland; Ambassador Marijus Gudynas, a friend of this committee, from the Embassy of Lithuania; Ambassador Skåre of the Norwegian Embassy and also Ms Hammouchi; and another special friend of this committee, Ambassador George Zurabashvili, Ambassador of Georgia to Ireland who is no stranger to our meetings. I welcome Senator Craughwell and Deputy Cowen.

We commence with Her Excellency, Ms Larysa Gerasko, Ambassador of Ukraine to Ireland. I welcome the ambassador. We thank her for taking time to meet with us in order to brief us and answer some of the questions members will have. We are meeting, as I said, in advance of the one-year anniversary of the Russian invasion of her country. This is an opportunity for us to reiterate our unwavering support for the territorial integrity and sovereignty of Ukraine and its people. We welcome the opportunity for Her Excellency, Ms Gerasko, to update us on the situation. I also welcome embassy officials, Mr. Yurii Rubashov, counsellor of the embassy, and Mr. Dmytro Schedrin, first secretary.

I remind our witnesses and members of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make them in any way identifiable or to engage in any speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity.

If any statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, the witness or member will be directed to discontinue and it is imperative that any such direction be complied with.

I call on the ambassador, Her Excellency Gerasko, to make her opening remarks.

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

I thank the Chair. I am honoured to be here today to brief the distinguished members of the joint committee on the threats the Russian Federation poses to Ukraine and Europe in its entirety. Before I turn to my remarks, on behalf of the people of Ukraine, I extend our appreciation for Ireland's unwavering support at this unprecedented and challenging time for our country and people. Three days from now, on 24 February, Ukraine will mark one year since Russia began its full-scale invasion of our country. The only reason for this unprovoked aggression was the neo-imperial and expansionist ambitions of the Russian state and its top leadership. Despite a number of devastating defeats and its growing number of losses - as of today more than 144,000 have been killed - Russia continues to deny our legitimacy as a sovereign state and retains its maximalist goal to destroy Ukrainian statehood and the Ukrainian nation. Having already lost strategically, the Russian occupiers still have enough resources to conduct tactical offensives. More than 300,000 Russians are currently fighting in Ukraine. In revenge for its military losses on the ground, Russia continues to terrorise Ukrainian civilians. Recent months have been marked by intensive missile and drone attacks against Ukrainian civilians, critical infrastructure and residential areas, resulting in significant casualties and destruction.

On 10 February, Russia launched another massive missile and drone attack. Unfortunately, high-voltage infrastructure facilities were hit in the eastern, western and southern regions of Ukraine. Several Russian missiles flew over Moldovan airspace. Even today Russia was shelling Kherson and hit bus stops, car parks and some residential buildings. Unfortunately, six people, whom I underline were civilians, were killed and 21 people were injured. The terrible rocket attack on a multistorey building in the city of Dnipro on 14 January 2023 was another demonstration of the face of Russia. It is the face of a bloody monster-terrorist. A total of 45 people died during the tragedy, including six children, and 79 people, including 16 children were injured.

Russia`s invasion triggered one of the largest human displacement crises in the world today. Some 14 million Ukrainians, or one third of the population, have been displaced. Approximately 5.9 million people became internally displaced people, IDPs, and a further 8 million people have been forced to seek safety abroad. In this respect, we are grateful to Ireland for being one of the first to open its borders to Ukrainians, providing temporary protection to tens of thousands of them, as well as accommodation, access to the education and healthcare systems, language courses and many other things. I thank Ireland for that.

Russian troops systematically violate the norms of international humanitarian law and human rights in Ukraine, including deliberate and indiscriminate attacks on civilians; their use of hostages and human shields; executions and rapes; forceful conscription and kidnapping; attacks on medical personnel and facilities; use of banned weapons and so on. I ask the committee to imagine the situation: more than 16,000 Ukrainian children were deported to Russia, including under the pretext of medical rehabilitation. Ukrainian law enforcement agencies registered the damage or destruction of more than 80,000 civilian infrastructure facilities, including more than 61,000 residential buildings and houses; more than 2,000 educational institutions; almost 500 medical institutions; 320 cultural buildings; 94 religious buildings; and almost 4,000 water and electricity networks. These numbers do not include the temporarily occupied areas in which the real level of destruction is much higher. In the recently occupied areas, Russia reproduces the same patterns it has been using in Crimea and parts of Donbas since 2014. It appoints an occupation administration and imposes Russian passports and Russian legislation. Thus, we are grateful to the Seanad for its decision to recognise both the ongoing Russian aggression and the Holodomor great famine of 1932 to 1933 as crimes of genocide. I thank Members for that. To call a spade a spade is very important to us.

Almost 50% of Ukraine’s energy system - most notably, thermal plants, hydroelectric power plants and the high-voltage network - has been damaged by Russia’s attacks. These brutal and unjustified attacks, which do not pursue any military objective, are systematic and ongoing. Our main priority is the quick restoration of the energy grid that has been severely damaged by Russia’s missile terror. This will include the following steps: repairing damaged power transmission and distribution lines wherever possible; restoring and decentralising generation wherever possible; implementing energy efficiency programmes; and strengthening cross-border electricity trade. We are, therefore, grateful to Ireland for providing transformers, generators and other energy equipment. At the same time, we continue to address our partners with a request to keep on providing Ukraine with the energy equipment necessary to restore Ukraine's energy system. Furthermore, the cost of environmental damage in Ukraine caused by Russia’s war against Ukraine is estimated at more than $46 billion. Almost 2,300 instances of environmental damage caused by the fighting have been recorded. Ukraine is one of the most mined countries in the world today. I ask the committee to imagine the situation, 35% of Ukraine’s territory, including 5.8% of agricultural land, requires de-mining. This will take at least five years. Since the start of Russia’s full-scale invasion, approximately 500,000 explosive objects were identified and neutralised.

The Russian invaders are draining the Kakhovka reservoir, thereby creating an ecological disaster, depriving Ukrainian settlements downstream of water and endangering the safety of Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, the cooling systems of which depend on water in that reservoir.

Russia's ongoing military occupation of the six reactors of the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant could cause large radioactive releases into the environment. Russia is a terrorist state. We call on the Oireachtas to recognise this in a corresponding motion.

Every Russian war criminal must be punished. The establishment of the special tribunal will enable Russia's political and military leadership to be prosecuted for the gravest crime, the crime of aggression. We call on Ireland to support its establishment. As we all see, the Russian meaning of peace is actually the complete opposite of what the civilised world sees as peace. We propose the implementation of the ten-element peace formula presented by President Zelenskyy at the G20 summit. This will bring comprehensive, just and lasting peace to Ukraine and security to the whole world. The formula's main goal is to deprive Russia of the tools to commit the crime of aggression against Ukraine and to guarantee security and justice for the entire international community. We call on countries across the globe to join in the process of its implementation. In the joint statement following the 24th Ukraine-EU summit, the EU expressed its support for the peace formula and committed to actively work with Ukraine on this peace plan. The elements of the peace formula are radiation and nuclear safety; food security; energy security; release of prisoners and deported persons; implementation of the UN Charter; restoration of Ukraine's territorial integrity and the world order; withdrawal of Russian troops and the cessation of hostilities; restoration of justice; ecological safety; preventing escalation of the war and repetition of aggression; and, finally, confirmation of the end of the war.

These steps could be implemented one by one or simultaneously. We call on Ireland to take leadership or co-leadership in one or several of them. We will be glad to welcome Ireland's active involvement in this initiative. Ukraine greatly appreciates the recent groundbreaking decision of the 54 partner countries at the meeting of the Ukraine defence contact group at the Ramstein air base on 20 January 2023. This ensured large-scale supplies of artillery, armoured vehicles, rockets for MLRS and anti-aircraft guns. A subsequent meeting on 14 February 2023 provided for air defence systems, the tank coalition and ammunition reserves. The expansion of training programmes for servicemen will definitely strengthen our military capabilities at the decisive stage of the war.

At the same time, as long as Russian boots remain on Ukrainian ground we still need the means to deal with it. We hope for Ireland's further dynamic support on the European Peace Facility and the effective results of preparation within the framework of the EU military assistance mission for Ukraine. The sooner and the more security assistance Ukraine gets now, the sooner the war will end with a lasting and just peace. Ukraine's victory is critical to European and global security. As the famous Irish saying goes, ní neart go cur le chéile; there is no strength without unity. I apologise for my pronunciation but it is true - there is no strength without unity.

For many years, the aspiration to belong to the European Union, has been an important priority for Ukraine, its government and citizens. We would like to thank Ireland for its consistent support of Ukraine's journey to full membership of the EU. Ukraine is completing the implementation of seven recommendations of the European Commission and will hope for positive updates from the Commission on this issue in March. Ukraine aims to complete all the requirements for the earliest possible start of accession negotiations. We would be grateful if Ireland could share its experience with us to implement the necessary reforms to gain full EU membership as soon as possible and take our rightful place in the European family.

Dear members of the committee, our common fight against Russia should not only be on the battlefield. We have to cripple Russia's military economy. Sanctions are one of the most effective ways to do this. That is why we call on Ireland, along with other EU member states and our partners, to maintain consistency in increasing sanctions pressure. We are expecting the adoption of the tenth package of sanctions as soon as possible. Among our key priorities is the termination of air attacks on our cities and energy infrastructure and, therefore, in addition to the existing arms embargo, we call for global bans on the supply to the Russians federation of components and products for dual or civil air purposes that can be used for the production of offensive weapons, including missiles and drones.

There is an urgent need for sanctions in the nuclear power industry. The sanctions should address the designation of persons involved in attempts to seize the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant and blackmail by nuclear incidents at the plant. There should also be a ban on cooperating with Russian nuclear energy by broadening the definition of the energy sector. On February 12, President Zelenskyy put into effect the decision of the national security and defence council of Ukraine to impose sanctions against 200 employees of the Russian nuclear industry. Among the priorities is the strengthening of the energy embargo as a main source of financing the war. It is important to introduce restrictions on the importation of iron ore and critical raw materials, including titanium, aluminium, copper, nickel, palladium, rhodium and diamonds.

We welcome the intention of our partners in the EU to synchronise sanctions against Russia and Belarus in the next package of sanctions. The regime of Lukashenko in Belarus remains the Kremlin's proxy in its war against Ukraine. The territory of Belarus is used for training and logistical purposes. We are also grateful to the EU for the unanimous decision of the EU Council on November 28 to include the violation of restrictive measures to the list of EU crimes included in the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. This is an important step to put pressure on Russia. This expands the list of crimes, the committing of which provides legal grounds for the confiscation of assets and their sales. We all know, that like all wars, this war will end. Unfortunately, the damage dealt to Ukraine by Russian attacks accounts for hundreds of billions of euro.

With this in mind, a fast recovery plan was created. The cost is at least €17 billion for immediate critical reconstruction, such as hospitals, schools, vital transport and energy infrastructure. In addition, we have a huge need for housing reconstruction, which Russian tanks and artillery methodically destroy. One of the sources to fill this fund should be Russian assets. Those that have already been frozen and those that still need to be frozen are significant. A significant part of these assets is in the jurisdiction of European countries, with €1.8 billion in Ireland. We need a very fast legal mechanism for directing Russian assets to compensate for the losses caused by the Russian war. The scale of the destruction to the Ukrainian economy is difficult to overestimate, as this is the biggest blow since the Second World War. As a result, there is a radical change in the system of intersectoral relations and the economy's structure as a whole.

The economy of Ukraine has experienced a large negative shock, with GDP contracting by at least 30%. It has lost 30% to 50% of its productive capacity, with losses concentrated in eastern Ukraine. However, even in the conditions of full-scale war launched by Russia, with a shattered economy, Ukraine retains its place among the world's top five agricultural exporters, being one of the guarantors of the world's food security. Since the start of the war, Ukraine has exported more than 50 million tonnes of grains, oilseeds and processed products to provide food for hundreds of millions of people across the globe. The destructive Russian policy of delaying the inspection of vessels resulted in a systematic decrease in the freight turnover within the Black Sea grain initiative. In the past three months, the world received less than 10 million tonnes of Ukrainian food. The situation is deteriorating further. A queue of more than 140 vessels has formed in the Bosporus, the vast majority of which have been waiting there for more than a month. We expect a reaction by the UN and Turkey. This initiative should be expanded to Ukrainian ports in the Mykolaiv region. The grain from Ukraine humanitarian programme returned vital food stability to the world. More than 30 countries and the EU joined. The amount of accumulated funds provided by international partners for this programme is about $200 million. We hope that Ireland will become one of the donors to this initiative.

Ukraine wants peace more than any other country does but we will not accept peace at any cost. We will not agree to anything that keeps Ukraine's territory occupied and puts our people at the mercy of the aggressor. Russia must be stopped now because appeasing the aggressor will lead to more atrocities elsewhere.

On the one hand, Russia pretends to be ready for peace talks while on the other it keeps ramping up its efforts on the battlefield in an attempt to turn the tide of war in its favour. Ukraine reiterates its demand that the Russian Federation immediately, completely and unconditionally withdraws all its military forces from the territory of Ukraine within its internationally recognised borders and calls for a cessation of hostilities. This war is not only about Ukraine. Russia's brutal attack destroyed global security and endangered all nations. This war must end with the triumph of international law and the UN Charter. Justice must be restored for Ukraine, Europe, and the whole world.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I thank the ambassador for her most comprehensive overview of the situation in Ukraine, which we all know is hugely challenging and has deteriorated over the past 12 months. As a parliamentary committee, we are very keen to reassure the Ukrainian Government and people of our support and solidarity. The importance of our engagement this afternoon should not be underestimated.

I will open the meeting now to members of the committee. I am conscious of the ambassador’s time. I know that members have some brief contributions to make in terms of observations on the situation in Ukraine and perhaps some questions. Mr. Schedrin and Mr. Rubashov should not hesitate to press the button and reply to any of the issues of importance they think might be appropriate.

I say to Ambassador Miculet that we will deal with the situation in Ukraine in the first instance and after approximately 30 minutes we will switch and deal with the situation in her country, Moldova, which is also an issue that has been exercising us on this committee.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The ambassador is very welcome to our committee on what is a harrowing anniversary. It is hard to believe it is nearly one year since the full and illegal invasion by Russia into Ukraine. I reiterate my full support and that of my party for the people of Ukraine and its full territorial integrity and the immediate full withdrawal of Russian troops from Ukraine. It is frightening to think it is a year on Friday since the full invasion.

The ambassador is aware that last April I travelled to Romania and Moldova. I saw at first hand the impact in the first few months when innocent civilians were targeted and used as a weapon of war. I saw hundreds if not thousands of ordinary civilians, including women with small children, fleeing over the border, predominantly from Odesa into Siret and Moldova. Young mothers were crying with their children, not knowing where they would end up.

I had the honour of meeting the ambassador in Greystones in my constituency just before Christmas in the fantastic Tiglin centre, which is being used to house Ukrainian refugees. That, along with my experience on what was essentially the front line in April, brought the situation home to me. That was especially the case when I spoke to a young man in Tiglin who had fled Ukraine with his young son. The ambassador will remember the reason he is there.

As he was packing his bags to send his wife and son to safety in Ireland, the mother was killed in front of their eyes. Anyone questioning the support that Ireland is giving the people of Ukraine should take their time and go and speak to people who have lost loved ones through the invasion of Ukraine by Russia. Everything Ireland is doing, we are doing for a reason - we are doing it for the right reason - and I think anyone who is questioning that needs to cop themselves on and think twice about the impact it is having on ordinary Ukrainian people. I will just say that.

I still get emotional when thinking about that so I can only imagine how the ambassador and ordinary Ukrainians feel about what is going on daily. We have seen 14 million Ukrainian people displaced, one third of the population, with 6 million displaced internally. Over 75,000 have now come to seek refuge in Ireland and they are very welcome. I know every town and every county across Ireland has opened its arms and embraced them, and they have done everything they can to make people feel welcome.

There have been challenges in terms of the provision of accommodation, and I know the ambassador spoke out before Christmas in trying to send a message to Ukrainians around some of those challenges. Do those challenges still present themselves or has the ambassador seen a change in terms of the provision of the critical accommodation that is coming on stream for people?

From day one, Russia has lost this war, especially when we think of everything that has moved against them and the solidarity of the international community. Even a neutral country such as Moldova is now looking at its security and where it needs to be to protect itself, and conversations are starting about NATO membership. When we look at Finland and Sweden and how this invasion has changed their domestic defence policies, we can see it has been totally counterproductive from Russia's perspective. They have lost this war from day one.

I ask the ambassador about the ten-point peace plan. A resolution is to come before the UN General Assembly this week, and I believe 60 countries have now signed that resolution. I hope it is passed and that it gets overwhelming or even unanimous support from all 190-plus members of the General Assembly. The ambassador might touch on how that is going and what kind of feedback she is getting.

I want to raise the issue of accountability for war crimes. I fully support the investigation by the International Criminal Court, ICC. I welcome the funding that has been allocated from the Irish Government to the ICC and that needs to proceed apace. I have said previously that it is essential that evidence is collected in a timely fashion to ensure those responsible for carrying out war crimes are held fully to account. I am sure it is very difficult in a war situation to access some areas, and we have seen the atrocities carried out in places like Bucha. With regard to getting people on the ground in a timely fashion to collect evidence and having personnel available, such as skilled forensic scientists, given there are thousands of live investigations, what are the current challenges? Is there a need for more assistance to collect the forensics that are needed?

I fully support the nine rounds of sanctions that have been imposed. There was a report this week which stated that the Russian economy only contracted by 2.1%, although I do not know how independent those figures are, given they came from Russia's statistics agency. While I look forward to the tenth round of sanctions that is being worked on, I ask how effective the ambassador thinks the sanctions have been to date and what more should or could be done. We know Russia and its oligarchs are doing different things to sidestep some of those sanctions. Is there more that should or could be done to ensure the sanctions are fully implemented and there are no grey areas? What additional measures should be taken? If it is accurate that the economy has only contracted by 2.1%, that would be a concern. When the sanctions were being discussed, there was an expectation that it would impact on the Russian economy by about 12%, so it seems a good bit off. I would like to get the ambassador's view in that regard.

I began my contribution with reference to civilians being used as a weapon of war and the targeting of civilian infrastructure, which is a gross violation of international law. We have seen the devastating impact this has had on ordinary civilians in Ukraine, but not only in Ukraine. We know Moldova imports about 20% of its energy supply from Ukraine, so a direct attack such as we have seen from October onwards on the energy infrastructure in Ukraine has had a direct impact on Moldova as well.

To conclude, the ambassador has my total support and the total support of my party.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Thank you. There may be a further opportunity for the Deputy to come in. I call Deputy Stanton.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the ambassador and the delegation and thank them for coming in today. Deputy Brady has covered a lot of the questions I was going to ask so I will not repeat them.

I am struck by one of the figures which the ambassador mentioned in her presentation, where she said that 16,207 children have been deported from Ukraine and that they are now in Russia. The ambassador might let us know the stories around those deportations, where those children are, what has happened to them, why they are being deported and what their future is. It seems a huge figure to me. What part of Ukraine have they been deported from? To have that number of children being deported must be horrific not just for them but for their parents and families as well, if their parents and families are still alive. It is something that jumped out from the presentation. I have come across this on a few occasions previously. I thought we had left this kind of barbarity in the Middle Ages. Kidnapping children, taking them away and deporting them seems a particularly heinous thing to do, although everything else is awful and terrible as well.

The ambassador mentioned the laying of mines and explosive devices. She said that 500,000 explosive objects have been identified and neutralised to date. My guess is there are a lot more munitions like that buried in fields and in land across Ukraine. We can imagine the impact that is having on civilians as they try the best they can to get on with their day-to-day business. We know that the laying of mines was condemned internationally yet this seems particularly horrific, apart from everything else.

I have reflected on this for quite some time. I believe the ambassador is right to suggest that Russia is now a terrorist state.

There are no two ways about it. It is a terrorist state because of what it is doing. I agree with the ambassador on that. We need to support her country's ambition to join the European Union. It is hugely important. I thank the people of Ukraine for what they have been doing in supplying grain to parts of the world that are starving and under pressure from hunger and famine. Despite what is happening, the Ukrainian people are still doing that, which is fantastic.

We all know and have become friends with Ukrainian people who have moved to Ireland. Some of us have taken them into our own homes. Generally speaking, what feedback is Ms Gerasko getting from Ukrainian citizens who have moved to Ireland? What are they saying? Do they need assistance, for instance, with getting employment and work? I am conscious some of them want to work and many are working, but can we do more in that regard? Many Ukrainians have exchanged their driving licences, got car insurance and are driving and so on, but is there more we can do? We are obviously at full employment and it might help Ukrainians here if they could work and use their skills. Are there areas where we as a State can do more to integrate them into our economy and our society?

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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As some of the questions have overlap, I propose we will hear from a number of Deputies and then I will revert to our guests from the embassy to make further observations.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I join the Chair in assuring our guests of Ireland's absolute and unwavering support for the Ukrainian people and their Government. We will continue, undoubtedly, to do the right thing by the Ukrainian people and offer a safe port for the massive number of them who are displaced. No matter how challenging it is, no-one in this country could be facing the horrors the ambassador's people are facing. As a result of that, it is imperative we reiterate our commitment in that regard and assure the ambassador that, no matter the difficulties from how little or how great a minority, we will continue to do the right thing, and we are undoubtedly doing the right thing.

Following on from Deputy Stanton on the proliferation of mines, it is said up 60% of the agricultural land base is now mined and 35% of land generally is. I note, welcome and appreciate the Government's committing our Defence Forces in joining international armed forces in helping, assisting and training the Ukrainian population in the area of demining. It is efforts of that nature which can be of great benefit in practical terms. I have no doubt that through the interactions with the EU, more opportunities such as that will emerge in time. Our Defence Forces are committed to act in such a manner in order to assist the ambassador's people to be in a better position to defend themselves.

As we approach the anniversary of the invasion, Russia may not be winning the war or it may not be going according to its greater plans but that can be of little solace to the ambassador and her people, especially given the terrible atrocities being perpetrated by Russia. We will, as has been alluded to, continue to use whatever influence we have, no matter how small a nation we are. We have a history of conflict resolution and expertise in that regard and we will seek to use what diplomatic channels we can within the EU, the UN and the international community in an effort to bring peace to bear, eventually.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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The ambassador and her officials are very welcome. It is important they are here with us. We welcome the opportunity to renew our expressions of solidarity to her. There is no ambiguity or question about that. I want the ambassador to know the people of Ireland are completely with the people of Ukraine. She might have noticed one or two ugly demonstrations in the newspapers, but they are very fringe. They are beyond fringe, thank God. What is more representative is that the mass of people, and their representatives in here, across all political areas, are totally in support of the Ukrainian people. Ms Gerasko should not interpret that small cohort who are there for negative purposes as being reflective of the will of the people.

I wish to ask about a few things and variations on what has been asked. From a military point of view, I gather there is a need to get the additional arms and the tanks that have recently been approved into the country in time and to get Ukrainian soldiers trained to use them. The ambassador and her officials might comment on the status of those efforts. Are we going to be fit to get the additional armaments in on time and effectively? There is not much can be said only that it is a horror, but I gather from the newspapers that there was a near hit on a nuclear plant in the last few days. Our guests might elaborate to allow us confirm that is the case. It was certainly reported in the media. That risk is perpetually there.

Deputy Stanton raised the question of the children. We are all concerned on that level and I await the ambassador's answer to him on that.

Our guests might elaborate on the application for EU membership and the fact Ukraine is working on the seven recommendations. I gather there have been some high-profile arrests around corruption in recent times. Our guests might comment on that. Most people want to see Ukraine in the EU and the same is true with Moldova. Ultimately, we want Ukraine, Moldova and our friends from Georgia to be part of the EU also. We support an expanded EU. Obviously, the recommendations issued are there for good reason. Our guests might comment on them and whether they are attainable. If any of them are unattainable or unreasonable we should know about them because then we could try to project that to our MEPs and to the Commission.

Deputy Cowen made a point about the Irish being so willing to be peacemakers. Our guests may take that as a given. We have expertise there, as the Deputy said, and would love to be at the vanguard of seeing peace. Some recommendations towards a peace plan came from China recently. Our guests might give an opinion on that plan or say whether any element of it is workable.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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The ambassador and her team are more than welcome. I thank them for a most comprehensive report. I will begin with a positive and take time to congratulate Ukraine on its ability to develop a mobile phone application that allows its citizens to engage with Government and Government services in the middle of a war. It is an incredible feat of bravery and tenacity by the ambassador's people and I wanted to put that on record. Amidst all the bad things that are going on, Ukraine is still performing as a normal country, or as close as it can to normality at any rate.

The Georgian ambassador has been referenced. It is fair to say this war started in 2008 with the first Russian probe into a country occurred in Georgia. We in the Western world took our eyes off what was happening. I am thankful that has not happened in the case of Ukraine. We talk about Ireland's support for Ukraine. There is no question whatsoever about it. We have supported Ukrainian refugees and provided what goods and services we could provide. However, my colleague in the Dáil, Deputy Berry, and I have said we should provide what weapons we can. Are our guests able to differentiate between what might be regarded as offensive weapons and what might be regarded as defensive weapons?

It has always been our view that we should provide Ukraine with the tools we can to prevent missiles landing in built-up areas or to take down aircraft causing a threat to built-up areas.

Up to now, the air war has been fairly limited. Is Ms Gerasko concerned that an air war is coming? Is that why Ukraine is asking for fighter jets from the western world? I know our friends and neighbours in the UK have provided Ukraine with training in fighter jets. I am not sure that any fighter jets have been made available to Ukraine yet. Maybe for security reasons, Ms Gerasko does not want to comment on that. However, she might let us know the demand Ukraine has and where matters stand in that regard.

It has often been said that Ukraine has been fighting the war of the West and fighting it on its own.. What is Ms Gerasko's view on that? Is it very much a case of the West supplying Ukraine with everything but that the West will not fight for it? Ukraine is very much on its own when it comes to that. The supplying of tanks, arms and ammunition is all great and Ukraine needs it. However, no country is offering to stand four-square behind Ukraine militarily. Do Ukrainians feel bad about that? Does it make them feel somewhat lonely?

On a positive note, I note Putin's speech offered very little to the oligarchs who are suffering from sanctions. He points out that this is just tough luck and that all Russians are in this together. I wonder if that will be his downfall. Does Ms Gerasko have any opinion on how the oligarchs may ultimately decide where Russia goes?

We are about to decommission some naval vessels. My colleague Deputy Berry and I have often said that to allow the Ukrainian navy to maintain naval skills, it could make use of those ships somewhere in the Mediterranean or Atlantic where it would just keep skills and skill sets up to speed so that when things revert back to normal, its navy is ready to come straight back into work.

While there has been massive support for refugees coming to Ireland, a few situations have come to my attention regarding the provision of food and heat in some hotels. I have seen at first hand food distributed in polystyrene dishes with plastic cutlery. I have seen heat switched off in hotels except for two hours in the morning and two hours late at night. I have written to the hotels where that has happened and I believe there has been some change. Are any reports like that coming back to the Ukrainian Embassy? Our Government has put our money into making sure that those who come into the country have a safe and warm place where they can be well-fed and as comfortable as they possibly can be. If people are profiteering on that, we need to know about it.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I welcome Deputy Devlin, who is not a member of the committee but who nevertheless is very welcome to make a contribution. He has recently been appointed deputy Government Chief Whip on which I offer him my congratulations and the congratulations of the committee.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I am grateful for the opportunity to address the committee. I welcome the witnesses this afternoon. Obviously, it is a very difficult week for the ambassador, Ms Gerasko, on the first anniversary of the invasion off her country. It is certainly an anniversary that nobody wanted to reach. It is exceptionally difficult for her personally and also for her fellow Ukrainians. I note the Moldovan ambassador and his colleagues are also here. This war has had a significant impact not only on Ukraine's immediate neighbours but indeed right across Europe. We, in this House, stand in solidarity with each and every one of them.

Many of my colleagues have spoken about the effective use of technology by the Ukrainians in particular. I was not here for all of Ms Gerasko's opening statement. I ask her to touch on the implications of foreign involvement and the supply of technology to the Russians. In particular, we saw the use of drones earlier on. I understand that other technologies are being utilised for different types of weapons, which is obviously having a devastating impact on the Ukrainian people in many of the country's regions. Speaking of the annexation of certain regions within Ukraine, Deputy Stanton mentioned the children. Not only has there been the abduction of children, but also the re-education of children in many parts of Ukraine. Obviously, there are human rights issues in that regard. I ask Ms Gerasko to elaborate on that.

Obviously, Ireland has witnessed a certain amount of migration, but not to the same extent as Ukraine's neighbours, particularly Poland and the Baltic countries. This morning, RTÉ reported that some Ukrainians were heading home where there was liberation of certain towns and areas. I suspect that is the minority of cases. Does the embassy here have a figure for how many Ukrainians may be returning from Ireland and elsewhere around Europe? Obviously, I know that information is quite sketchy and not necessarily a high priority for the Ukrainian Government at present. Nothing amazes me, however, when it comes to the Ukrainians because they have been able to do so much simultaneously. As was said earlier while fighting a war it is proceeding with the process to join the European Union and is communicating its needs with the rest of the world throughout this war.

I thank both ambassadors for being here.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I will come back to the ambassador, Ms Gerasko, shortly. I am very conscious of the wide-ranging questions that have been put by members. I will ask her and her colleagues to deal with them as she feels appropriate. To reply to some of the questions that have been put, I suspect she would need to have the capacity of a military general directing operations on the front line. She should feel free to deal with the questions in a manner she thinks is appropriate.

I acknowledge the importance of this morning's approval by the Government of the participation of up to 30 Defence Forces personnel in the newly-established European Union military assistance mission in support of Ukraine. That mission will provide what we would regard as vital training to the Ukrainian armed forces. It will also co-ordinate the EU member states' response, which is important in the context of the EU contribution. Having regard to Ireland's solidarity which has been mentioned by all members here and having regard to the considerable experience and expertise of our Defence Forces in training both here in Ireland and also overseas, I would see the participation of our Defence Forces in this mission as an important signal of our unwavering support of and solidarity with Ukraine. Again, the primary role of the Defence Forces will be to provide that training to members of the Ukrainian armed forces. That training will be provided on EU soil in one of the neighbouring states. The trainers will also be supplemented by a small number of staff based in Brussels and the multinational special training command in Germany.

There has been a lot of discussion in recent times about Irish neutrality and the Irish position. It is fair to say that since the beginning of the invasion and over the past 12 months, Ireland has provided significant support to the Ukrainian armed forces, principally through the European Peace Facility, EPF, through which we are currently committed to the provision of €77 million. Ireland stands ready to increase that contribution in the event the European Union agrees that further tranches are necessary in support of Ukraine. Ireland is not alone in insisting that EPF funding is used for non-lethal purposes. That reflects our long-standing position, as was confirmed in the course of the recent meeting between the Taoiseach and President Zelenskyy. I acknowledge the many bilateral contacts in the past 12 months between Ireland and Ukraine at political and diplomatic levels. Insofar as Ireland's contribution is concerned, the focus has been on providing assistance, as Deputy Cowen has said, in the area of de-mining, which was an important aspect of the conversation between the Ukrainian Prime Minister and the then Taoiseach, Deputy Micheál Martin, last year. It is important that Ireland continues to make these contributions, which are consistent with our long-standing position of military neutrality. In the presence of our guests, I say that Ireland is not, and has not been at any stage in the past year, in any way politically or morally neutral. We will continue to provide supports as the need arises.

I return the floor to the ambassador, Mr. Rubashov and Mr. Schedrin, as they deem appropriate.

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

I thank the committee members for expressing words of support and for their real support to our country, people and embassy. The first question was about accommodation for Ukrainians. In my reply, I will also answer all the questions about Ukrainians in Ireland. I will try to answer the many questions that were asked in one block.

More than 70,000 Ukrainians got temporary protection here in Ireland. Unfortunately, we only have statistics for how many Ukrainians have received protection. We do not have statistics for how many Ukrainians have already left Ireland. As far as I know, governmental authorities do not have such statistics. It is impossible for the embassy to count those people.

Accommodation is always a painful issue for Ukrainians and the Irish Government. I am in constant contact with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. Of course, as Deputy Brady said, I address the issue with Ukrainians. The Citywest centre was closed for the Christmas and new year holidays. As of today, all centres are open. Ukrainians are facing the same challenges in respect of accommodation but it is not as tough a situation as it was. Many Ukrainians use the Red Cross and other non-governmental organisations to find accommodation. Those Ukrainians who have got jobs and have started working here prefer to rent accommodation, which is good.

As the committee knows, many Ukrainians live in Citywest and other such centres. A couple of weeks ago, I visited such a centre in Gormanston. The situation is, more or less, good. We hope and expect more Ukrainians to return to Ukraine before summertime, after the winter's cold.

With regard to food and other complaints, we are, of course, in contact with Ukrainians and are receiving many letters, emails, etc. The complaints are mostly from Ukrainians who cannot find a job because they live in rural areas. That is the question I hear most often. Another question I hear relates to access to medical facilities, especially for those who have special medical needs, including people with disabilities and children with special needs. There are also some complaints. People do not complain about the Government or the Department Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. They sometimes complain about specific hotel managers. We are trying to help Ukrainians on a case-by-case basis. We are doing the best we can in co-operation with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. I hope that covers the issue.

The second question related to the peace formula and the draft UN resolution. Hopefully, the resolution will be adopted by the General Assembly on Friday. Our diplomats are still working to get more votes and support from different countries. Ireland is one of the co-sponsors of the resolution, for which we are grateful. I hope that a large number of countries will show support and vote in favour of the resolution. If we are talking about a peace formula, I might refer to the Chinese peace plan.

All of us may have just read in the newspaper about the Chinese plan. China stated that it will present this formula on the one-year anniversary of the whole-scale invasion on 24 February. We will see. It is quite difficult to discuss an unknown plan but I will state that there is no compromise on the territorial integrity of Ukraine.

As I mentioned in my statement, we are not only talking about the territory of Ukraine but we are talking about people. Most of the people in attendance here saw the video of how Ukrainians in liberated Kherson greeted the Ukrainian army. That is the answer. Many people live under Russian occupation and, believe me, they are not happy. All present here, for instance, saw the exhibition which is upstairs, after the liberation of Bucha, and saw the images of liberated Izuum where there was a great cemetery. That was also the case in Mariupol and Kherson with chambers of torture. Just imagine what is going on every single minute with our Ukrainians who remain in the occupied territories.

Accountability is a very important question. I mentioned in my statement that we call on all countries to support the establishment of a special tribunal. One can say that there is the International Criminal Court, ICC, but the scope of crimes is wider than the scope of crimes which could be investigated and prosecuted by the ICC. Today, for instance, the Ukrainian law enforcement agency launched an investigation into 70,000 war crimes and crimes of aggression committed since 24 February. They included the killing of around 10,000 children, the wounding of tens of thousands of civilians and many others. That is why the establishment of the special tribunal is very important. Criminals have to be punished, that is for sure.

Ireland provided finance of over €1 million to the ICC in order to improve the collecting and documenting of this evidence.

On the issue of sanctions, as I mentioned, the imposing of sanctions is very important. Sanctions work very slowly but surely. That is why the adoption of a tougher and stronger package of sanctions is very important because the sanctions should be harmful for the Russian economy. Perhaps the commissioner will add some words of his own on the sanctions.

Mr. Dmytro Shchedrin:

As mentioned by Deputy Brady, one cannot fully trust the information one hears from the Russians. They are overestimating their victories and underestimating their losses.

Some 2.5% of a decline is still a decline and is something that Russia is not proud about, as one of the most powerful economies, according to its own description of itself. It is feeling the pressure. Russia is quite inventive in circumventing the sanctions. They use other countries to import those products they need, including those products that might be used in the manufacturing of drones and missiles, if one is talking about electronics. This is something we should work on.

We should definitely leave the current level of sanctions in place and should never think about losing this grip, but, as the ambassador mentioned, we should even push for more. We should implement more sanctions and especially those secondary sanctions on the companies and individuals who will do whatever it takes to circumvent the sanctions that are in place. I would second the ambassador’s comments in saying that sanctions are working. We should take the numbers we are getting from Russia with a pinch, if not a bag, of salt and keep the sanctions in place. We have a great team working in Ukraine, together with our European and American partners, on identifying the individuals and companies that need to be sanctioned. This is where we need Ireland’s support as part of the EU to keep them going.

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

I will continue. On the issue of deported children, we have a preliminary number of between 16,207, which I mentioned in my statement earlier, but we presume that this number is higher. Most of these children were deported from the temporarily occupied territories of Ukraine to Russia, including children whose parents died as a result of Russia’s military aggression. Some of the children have been adopted already, if one can imagine. We are aware that it is prohibited to use the Ukrainian language with those Ukrainian children, unfortunately, in those families, or to contact Ukrainian relatives. Unfortunately too, neither we nor international observers have any access to the territory of Russia.

I refer to the ombudsman of Russia on the issue of children. She adopted a 15-year-old teenager from Mariupol. She said she saw it on TV, that she had a meeting with Putin and she said that now she would know how to be a mother of an adopted child from Donbas. That is unbelievable. We raised this issue in all international forums, including in Geneva. We tried to get our children back and that is one of the elements of the peace formula of our President.

I was asked if additional arms would be effective. To defeat the Russian army we need weapons. We have to strengthen our capabilities, but I would like to underline that we are not going to conduct any offensive attacks outside of our territory. We just need what we need to liberate our territory, to renew and restore our territorial integrity and to liberate our people. We need offensive arms for that. This issue was discussed in Ramstein and at the Munich Security Conference. Our President stated that our partners should accelerate and ensure the sustainability of arms deliveries. There is no alternative because Ukrainian lives are at stake. Ukraine managed to unlock six of the big seven weapons up until today. These include anti-tank arms, artillery, multiple launch rocket system, MLRS, air defence, tanks, and long-range missiles. We are convinced we will be able to unlock the seventh type, aircraft, which is crucial to protect Ukraine's sky and to prevent further missile attacks and shelling of civilian infrastructure.

I visited Kyiv last December and I cannot even explain how scary it was to be on the street when air raid sirens were yelling. You do not know what to do, whether to run to the subway or do something else. Ukrainians live in such conditions and under such circumstances every day. I reiterate that the sooner we get security means and assistance, the sooner we will win. We will save more lives in that way.

The EU anti-corruption-----

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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The ambassador has dealt comprehensively with the members' observations.

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

There is one more issue, that of corruption and the struggle and fight against same. Ukraine is committed to a zero tolerance corruption policy. The Ukrainian Government takes all reports of alleged corruption cases extremely seriously, including the recent ones at the Ministry of Defence of Ukraine and the Ministry of Reintegration of Temporarily Occupied Territories. As members know, in response to those reports, President Zelenskyy immediately took action, resulting in the removal of high-ranking officials from their positions in both central and local governmental authorities. Despite the ongoing war, the President's solution to fight against corruption is intended to bring stability to Ukraine. All these anti-corruption steps are supported by 100% of the population.

If I missed something I ask members to remind me.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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The ambassador may well have an opportunity to come back in before we complete our business. I thank her for her contribution and for the manner in which she dealt with questions. I am conscious of time and of the fact that our guest, Ambassador Miculet, has been waiting patiently and listening attentively to our deliberations. We are keen in this committee, as Deputy Brady referenced earlier on his visit to Moldova, to ensure the situation in Moldova is high on our agenda and in our discussions here as well as in the wider Parliament. I am delighted, therefore, that the ambassador is here, and we are keen she would update us on the situation in Moldova and on how the war in Ukraine is impacting her country and people. She is welcome and I thank her taking the time to be with us. I also welcome Mr. Igor Moldovan, who is the councillor at the Embassy of the Republic of Moldova. I invite the ambassador to make her opening remarks, following which I will invite contributions from members. I will commence with Senator Wilson, who I know has been trying to get in.

H.E. Mrs. Larisa Miculet:

I thank the honourable members of the Oireachtas committee for the opportunity to make this address on the situation in Moldova in the context of the impact of the Russian aggression against Ukraine. As this is the first official appearance of the Ambassador of the Republic of Moldova to this committee since the opening of the embassy in July 2019, before moving to the topic of today’s discussion, allow me to state the following. Diplomatic relations between our countries, which will mark their 24th anniversary in September 2023, are based on mutual values and interests and they have been significantly strengthened in recent years, especially in 2022.

On 12 July 2021, the first telephone conversation took place between the President of the Republic of Moldova, Maia Sandu, and the President of Ireland, Michael D. Higgins. The Irish President congratulated the citizens of the Republic of Moldova on the historic vote on 11 July, and the President of the Republic of Moldova thanked him for the help provided to ensure the smooth running of the voting process for our diaspora in Ireland. The dignitaries also discussed areas of further co-operation. In 2022, after a gap of 19 years, the Irish Minister for Foreign Affairs, at that time Deputy Simon Coveney, visited my country twice. The leadership of our foreign offices had a constant communication and exchange of views via video conference, phone calls and meetings on the sidelines of various international forums.

The Taoiseach, Deputy Leo Varadkar, has already had a meeting this year with President Maia Sandu. We look forward to his participation in the second European political community, EPC, summit in Moldova on 1 June of this year, when 47 delegations led by the leaders of European countries, as well as the leadership of the European Union, will come to Chiinu to participate in the most important event ever hosted by Moldova. The decision to organise the second EPC summit in our country is a strong signal of support for our European future.

Interparliamentary co-operation has also been strengthened through the establishment of the Ireland-Moldova parliamentary friendship group, which serves as a valuable vehicle in developing closer ties between our legislatures. We look forward to the upcoming official visit of the President of the Parliament of the Republic of Moldova to Dublin at the beginning of the next week, at the invitation of the Ceann Comhairle. Last year's invitations to address the Joint Committee on European Union Affairs on 15 March and 27 April regarding Moldova's application to join the European Union and the status of Moldova's response to Ukraine were very valuable. The subsequent visit of the cross-party delegation of that committee to Moldova to show solidarity and to find out how the situation has evolved, as well as what more can be done to support us, was very much appreciated.

Please allow me to express my sincerest thanks to the leadership of Ireland for the financial assistance of €5 million to Moldova to support refugees, essential public services and efforts to increase resilience in the energy sector, in addition to assistance previously allocated to alleviate the situation of Ukrainian refugees. At the same time, I would like personally to express sincere gratitude to the Chairman of this committee, Deputy Charles Flanagan, for his firm commitment to develop dialogue and support the Republic of Moldova while my country is strengthening political associations and deepening economic integration with the EU. I felt his support not only last year but in all the years I have been posted to Ireland as resident ambassador.

This week marks one year since the military invasion of Ukraine by the Russian Federation. It is still hard to believe in the possibility of such a dramatic scenario, that is, large-scale military actions on the European Continent, and it is impossible to comprehend this unprovoked military aggression against an independent state. So many lives have been lost and so many atrocities of war committed. So many buildings were also devastated this year. The Republic of Moldova, from the first days, resolutely condemned the war and joined the international community by aligning itself with appropriate political statements, including as a co-author of some. Deputy Brady spoke about the coming resolution at the UN. Moldova is a main co-sponsor of that resolution. We reiterate our strong support for the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine within its internationally recognised borders.

Despite many pressing economic challenges and limited resources, we opened our country and our homes to Ukrainian refugees. More than 700,000 Ukrainian refugees entered Moldova in the past 12 months and around 85,000 Ukrainian refugees remain, almost half of whom are children. The Government’s recent decision to activate temporary protection is another concrete and tangible expression of continued and sustained solidarity with the Ukrainian people. This provides a more secure legal status for refugees in our country and paves the way for a more sustainable and planned response. Temporary protection will help refugees access employment and become self-reliant, and will allow them to contribute to their host communities until they can return home in safety and dignity. It also provides the framework for even more sustainable access to education and other basic services they need, providing stability during times of great trauma and upheaval.

For more than nine months, Moldova has been part of the new logistical routes for Ukraine, the so-called solidarity lanes. They carried more than 20 million tonnes of cereals plus many other products, from humanitarian aid to fuel, animal feed and fertilisers. At the same time, the reorientation of Ukrainian trade flows in the volume of 3.5 million tons of grain increased the burden on Moldovan transport, logistics and border crossing infrastructure from seven days to 14 days for a round trip. We are working together with European partners to find quick and good solutions to this situation.

Obviously, the war in Ukraine has caused serious consequences on a regional and global scale in various sectors, such as energy, economy, food, humanitarian aid and security, with the Republic of Moldova also being directly affected by the increase in the cost of food, fuel, and energy prices. We are also facing disrupted imports and exports from the eastern markets so we are now looking for quick but sustainable solutions to open other markets for Moldovan products. We also face increased risks at the border with power outages and airspace violations. For instance, four missiles illegally entered into our airspace and the debris of many different rockets has fallen on our territory, as H.E. Ms Gerasko already stated.

The general security context around Moldova remains very fragile due to Russia’s war against Ukraine.

We are witnessing various destabilisation attempts by Russia, using its political proxies in Moldova, as they are interested in and intend to undermine the stability and credibility of the Government of the Republic of Moldova. So far, these attempts have not yielded results due to the efforts undertaken by the Moldovan authorities. It is obvious that our country will feel the consequences of the war for a long time. Therefore, we need the support of our partners to strengthen our resilience from any perspective. In this context, we need equipment for border control, air defence systems and new partnerships to allow us to continue to keep the Republic of Moldova in a state of calm.

The launching of the Moldova-EU high-level political and security dialogue represents one of the greatest achievements in 2022. It is a major step forward in our relations, signalling a greater degree of openness and interaction between Moldova and the EU in the security and defence spheres. We are grateful for the most consistent support in these difficult times for Moldova provided by the EU, especially in the energy sector. With the help of the EU, during 2022 we succeeded in: the diversification of gas sources; the establishment of strategic gas reserves in underground storage facilities in Romania and Ukraine; diversifying electricity supply; and access to the Romanian energy market and to the European grid.

Also in this context, we are grateful to EU member states for their firm and vocal support of our European aspirations and perspective. Without the help that we are all receiving, the impact of the war would have been much more dramatic, and the situation would have been much worse. The population and citizens of the Republic of Moldova want to build and live in a democratic, prosperous, European country, and be a member of the European Union. The newly formed governmental team fully supported by a pro-European majority in the parliament will continue to focus on EU accession and reforms, and will place increased emphasis on the country's security, but also on economic recovery and Moldova's contribution to regional security.

The recognition of the European perspective and granting to the Republic of Moldova candidate status for accession to the European Union is regarded by the Moldovan authorities as a historic chance to transform our country. We have been working diligently in such a complicated situation on the implementation of the nine recommendations of the European Commission. The second non-paper on the progress achieved has been sent to members of the committee. Our target is to achieve the necessary progress and to fulfil the Commission's recommendations by the end of June 2023. We are already working on the 33 EU acquischapters based on the internal analysis of the Moldovan replies to the EU accession questionnaire. We have already started making the necessary adjustments on the basis of the analytical report of the European Commission recently published on 2 February 2023. We have set up the European integration co-ordination mechanism, according to the accession methodology. We hope that the 2023 European Commission enlargement package will serve as a solid basis for EU member states to agree unanimously on the launch of accession negotiations with the Republic of Moldova at the December 2023 European Council.

From this perspective, I ask members to allow me to convey to them that my Government would greatly appreciate Ireland's continued support for increasing our resilience and advancing Moldova's co-operation process with the European Union. I express our deep gratitude for all the support and solidarity that were expressed at this meeting.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I thank the ambassador for the comprehensive account she has given. I am conscious of the clock. I will give the floor to Senator Wilson but, first, I acknowledge the presence of Senator Horkan, who while not a member of the committee is a friend of it. He is also convener of the Ireland-Moldova parliamentary friendship group. As always, he is very welcome. I also welcome Senator Ó Donnghaile, who indicated he would not be here for the entire meeting. I record apologies on behalf of Deputy Berry, who was to be here but he was called away rather urgently earlier. He sends his good wishes, support and solidarity to both Ukraine and Moldova.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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My comments and questions are for the Ukrainian ambassador in particular, but I thank the Moldovan ambassador for her contribution. I welcome their fellow ambassadors in the Public Gallery.

There has been commentary to the effect that next Friday is the first anniversary of the illegal invasion by Russia into Ukraine. There is another significant anniversary around this time. On 1 February 2022, the Russian ambassador addressed this committee and he assured us on that occasion that Russia had no intention of invading Ukraine. He went on to say that Russia only goes into other countries by invitation. When it was pointed out to him by me and others on that occasion that in 2008, the people of Georgia did not invite Russia into their country he retorted that the Georgians were lucky they did not go all the way to Tbilisi. I agree with what my colleagues Senators Craughwell and O'Reilly have said, which is that if that particular invasion had been dealt with differently by the international community, Ukraine might not be suffering the consequences today. I want to ensure that the people of Georgia are not forgotten in this context.

The ambassador estimated that the recovery plan would take approximately €17 billion, to provide immediate essential infrastructure such as hospitals, schools, vital transport, energy reconstruction and housing, to mention but a few. She pointed out that there are substantial wealth deposits belonging to the Russian Government held all over the world, including within the European community, some of which has been identified. However, other deposits have not been identified. Specific mention was made of €1.8 billion in Ireland. Has that been identified and if so, why has it not been taken out of the control of the Russian Federation and put towards the €17 billion fund for the recovery plan?

That is my first question. We should also ask this of the rest of the European community. What are they doing about freezing the assets of the Russian Government when they know where it exists?

I thank the ambassador, Ms Miculet, for her contribution in respect of Moldova. I acknowledge that 700,000 refugees from Ukraine entered Moldova and that 85,000 of them still remain, half of whom are children. Are these children in the company of a parent or parents, or are they on their own? I thank the ambassador for the contribution her country has made in opening the safe solidarity lanes that have been critical in carrying 20 million tonnes of aid, cereals and other humanitarian products to date. That is only over a nine-month period. She said that the situation in Moldova remains very fragile due to Russia's war against Ukraine. We are witnessing various destabilisation attempts by Russia using its political proxies in Moldova. Will she elaborate further on that? I thank her for her contribution. I had other questions but I know we are under time pressure.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I will not revert to the ambassador now. I will group a number of questions and then call on her to reply. I am conscious of the direct question Senator Wilson addressed to the ambassador , Ms Gerasko. I will give her an opportunity to deal with the specific issue of the sanctions, as queried by Senator Wilson, before the end of the meeting.

I call Deputy Brady followed by Senator Horkan.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the ambassadors for coming before our committee again. Much has been said, and correctly so, about the Russian invasion of George in 2008. That was the start of Russia's involvement in occupying other countries. We cannot forget the Russian invasion of Crimea in 2014. The invasions of Donetsk and Luhansk also occurred around the same time. The reaction of the international community did not go far enough in terms of holding Russia to account. They are the building blocks, unfortunately, which led to where we are today with a full invasion of Ukraine.

I have spoken to the Moldovan ambassador many times. As I alluded to earlier, the Committee on European Union Affairs visited Moldova in April 2022 and it left a lasting impact on me and the other committee members who were there. It has been often said that Moldova is the poorest country in Europe but it welcomed many thousands of Ukrainians fleeing the invasion with open arms. This was really appreciated by so many people. I spoke to people in Siret and Palanca who crossed the border from Odesa into Moldova. They were so grateful that Moldova opened its borders and allowed so many people in. There are still 85,000 Ukrainians in Moldova, a country with very little. Compare this to Ireland, one of the richest countries in Europe, that has in taken in 75,000 Ukrainians. This puts the challenges the invasion has put on other countries into perspective.

I listened to Vladimir Putin's speech earlier, in which he referred to different agreements that have been in place with regard to the so-called frozen conflict in Transnistria. We know that between 1,500 and 2,000 Russian forces are still in occupation in Transnistria. There was an awful lot of speculation, and commentators said from day one that the Russian intent was to move down along the coast of the Black Sea, into Odesa and, ultimately, to link up with landlocked Transnistria to free up that part as per their plans. Thanks to the bravery of the Ukrainians, in defence of their land, they scuppered the Russian plans. There is some concern and it has been reported today that the new Moldovan Prime Minister has said there are plans by Russia to take over the airport in Chisinau and to lead an invasion of its forces into Transnistria. That is in line with what the former Moldovan Prime Minister said on the fear of coups being orchestrated by Russia's destabilising forces in Moldova. Perhaps the ambassador will go into a little bit of detail on this. I know she alluded to some of this in her opening statement earlier. There are major concerns that Russia is still intent on destabilising and occupying Moldova. That is very concerning and worrying. I ask the ambassador to touch on that. In addition, there have been numerous cyberattacks on Moldova. Will she comment on this also?

In her opening statement, the ambassador referred to the energy issue within Moldova and how the attacks on civilian infrastructure and energy production facilities in Ukraine have had a direct impact on Moldova. There has been progress in gas storage that will lead to some sort of energy independence for Moldova but there is still a reliance on Gazprom, which brings gas into Transnistria. Before the invasion, approximately 70% of Moldova's energy came from Transnistria. How dependent is Moldova on the gas supply by Gazprom into Transnistria now? Is that still a major cause of concern? If Russia were to turn off the tap on the gas pipeline into Transnistria, what impact would that have? Russian would say there is a legacy debt for the supply of gas into Transnistria and Moldova. The ambassador might touch on that issue. I know that according to Russia, Moldova owes a sizeable debt.

We absolutely want to see Moldova progress and, ultimately, become a member of the European Union. The same can be said about Georgia and Ukraine. There were previous conversations on the role that Ireland could have in helping in that regard. There was some discussion around the possibility of civil servants helping out by training or upskilling some of the Moldovan civil servants. Have conversations taken place in that regard? It might be useful. One thing we have is extraordinary diplomats and fantastic civil servants. It would be useful if there was a requirement there.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach for allowing me to contribute at today's committee meeting. I welcome both ambassadors presenting before us, H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko, from Ukraine, and H.E. Ms Larisa Miculet, from Moldova. I also acknowledge the presence of our Polish, Lithuanian and Georgian colleagues, among others, in the Gallery.

They are all very welcome. They are much more familiar with how the Soviet Union and its successor Russian entity tends to want to behave. I was chairing another meeting earlier so I was not here for all of the opening statements. I am here in solidarity with the witnesses and what they are all doing for Ukraine. I remember going out on the Thursday morning of the invasion and meeting the Ukrainian ambassador and the Polish ambassador at the time. It does not feel like a year ago. There has been wanton destruction of lives and property. Throughout Europe we are all feeling the effects of the energy crisis. We are dealing with it every day throughout our island. This is not the fault of anybody in the room. It is Russia's fault for invading another country and deciding to occupy it and take it over, thinking that everyone would roll over and accept it. We need to recognise that we missed out when Crimea was taken in 2014 and Georgia was attacked and occupied in 2008. The world generally said it would accept it. Thankfully in one way, we are not willing to say it is okay to invade other countries. Where will it stop? There is no evidence that it is going to stop. We all have to stand up in support of Ukraine and we are doing so. I ask the Ukrainian ambassador what else we in Ireland can do other than what we are already doing. What else would she like us to do?

I acknowledge what Moldova is doing as a country of its size and population. It may be poor in financial resources but it is very rich in people resources and many other talents. It has taken 700,000 people through its relatively small country and relatively small population. More people are being housed there than here and our population is two and a half times that of Moldova and we have a much bigger territory. Moldova does not have the resources financially that it would like to have to be able to do what it is doing. It is an enormous task. All of us throughout the world, particularly in Europe, owe Moldova a huge debt.

I ask the ambassadors - if Georgia were represented, I would also ask its representative this question - what else we can do to help in the process and their progress into the EU. Membership of the EU has been amazingly positive for Ireland in so many ways. If we look back 50 years, we started as very much the poorest of the nine countries that were then members. We certainly have our problems and challenges but we are an awful lot better for our membership. It is not a case from our perspective of pulling up the drawbridge after us. We welcome the enlarging of Europe. It was in Dublin back in 2004 that the agreement to bring in ten and then 12 countries, including Poland, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia and Romania, was signed. We want to be as helpful as we can and bring countries inside the EU and let them have the same benefits as we got. Ireland benefited from the enlargement of Europe in terms of all of the people who are here. I acknowledge the many Europeans, particularly of eastern European background, who have settled in Ireland. Tens of thousands of Poles and Romanians and thousands of Moldovans are here and they are all very welcome. They are contributing greatly to our society.

I am the convener of the Ireland-Moldova interparliamentary friendship group. I thank the Chair for allowing me to contribute to the meeting. I am also the convener of the Ireland-Romania interparliamentary friendship group. Little did I know when I was asked to be convener of either of these groups how relevant Romania and Moldova would be. None of us would have known as much about Moldova or Ukraine a year ago as we do now. It is for all the wrong reasons but it is a privilege to know more than we did.

We stand 100% in solidarity with the people of Ukraine and the fight they must fight, which is totally unnecessary and needless. I credit Senator Wilson for reminding us of the Russian ambassador coming before the committee. I rarely attend meetings of committees of which I am not a member because we are all busy enough and the committee has enough to do without other members joining it. Senator Wilson reminded us that the ambassador went on national television and said there was nothing to see and that Russia would be retreating to its bases. Within hours and days, in it went. There has been wanton destruction by the Russian state.

I and others in the room are among the 52 Oireachtas Members who are banned from visiting Russia, not that I would want to go. What it has done would be outrageous anywhere but it is particularly so in its nearest neighbour. In the 21st century, we would have all hoped that this type of behaviour was long over, even after having seen what happened in Crimea and Georgia. It went in and destroyed lives and families. There has been wanton destruction. We in this country know how difficult it is to get a school or hospital built. Hundreds and thousands of school buildings and government buildings, and public property along with private property, have been destroyed. It really is unimaginable, only that we see it. I know we will be seeing more in the photography exhibition upstairs during the week.

I am in solidarity with the witnesses. What else can we do to aid in their war efforts and peace efforts in trying to resolve the situation? Longer term, what can we do in the process of bringing their countries into the EU? The sooner that happens, the better. I acknowledge that the speaker of the Moldovan Parliament and a number of other parliamentarians will visit next week and we look forward to seeing them. They will be very welcome. In the longer term I hope the committee will be able to speak to Georgia about where it is going in terms of its EU membership and what we can do to help it. Any country in the shadow of the Russian state is very vulnerable and needs the protection and support of those of us in the western world and the free world.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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I welcome Mrs. Miculet and thank her for her presentation. My colleague Deputy Brady has already mentioned that wars can be fought in different ways. There are the conventional boots on the ground, tanks and planes. There are also propaganda wars, disinformation, destabilisation and cyberattacks. Last week there was a change in political leadership in Moldova. I wish the country well with respect to fighting the other war that is going on, which is also quite dangerous. I am not sure whether we can help with that one. I recognise this pressure. I thank the ambassador of Moldova and her country for what they have done with respect to what is happening in the neighbouring state of Ukraine.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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I thank the ambassador, Ms Miculet, and her colleagues for appearing before the committee. It is great she is here. It is important that this exchange and flow of information continues in both directions. As I said privately to the Chair, I had to leave to represent a colleague who could not be in the Seanad today. I missed the presentation but I have notes.

I will start with a point in Ms Miculet's speech. It is one that has been picked up in the media. It is very disturbing that Russia is attempting to destabilise Moldova with cyberattacks and the threat of military invasion. It is very disturbing development. Along with colleagues, I salute the logistical support Moldova has given Ukraine. It has been the route in and out. It has housed record numbers of refugees and made a great contribution.

Ms Miculet is right to underline our common values, our friendship through history and the visit of various personnel from here and vice versa. I hope this will continue. I am a strong supporter, as I said earlier, of Moldova becoming a member of the EU. It would be wonderful for Europe and its stability to see Moldova in the EU along with Ukraine and Georgia. I have not been part of the discussion or heard the previous questions. Our real function today is to listen to Ms Miculet and salute what Moldova is doing, welcome her and assure her that as Ukraine has our solidarity, so too does Moldova. I will leave it at that.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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On behalf of the committee, I acknowledge the work Senator O'Reilly does on the international stage as a leading member of our parliamentary representation on the Council of Europe, which is also playing a very important role in the context of current matters in the region.

I reiterate my appreciation to the ambassador for her engagement in Ireland. My only question elaborates on an important point made by Deputy Brady when he referred to the political situation in Moldova, with particular reference to attempts on Russia's part to overthrow what is a pro-EU government by infiltration and undue interference, as well as trying to stir-up a protest movement in Moldova which is resulting in certain instabilities. I acknowledge President Zelenskyy recent statement in Ukraine that he had uncovered a Russian plot to destabilise Moldova. Before we conclude, will the ambassador give a flavour of the domestic situation, which is obviously a worry to the people of Moldova and also its neighbours. I reiterate the support of this committee to the Moldovan regime and to Ms Miculet as ambassador. I assure her that we will continue to highlight the very fragile nature of politics in Moldova. I think the best assistance we can give, as Deputy Stanton and Senator Horkan said, is to try to assist Moldova's application for EU membership, drawing on our own situation. The parallels are real, as Ms Miculet knows, between Moldova as a candidate for EU membership and the situation in Ireland during our candidate status and the sacrifices Irish people made, as well as the transformation that took place in this country, particularly during the early 1970s. As Senator Craughwell is gone, I am probably the only one who remembers that. I was at school at the time.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator had been long in the workforce by then.

Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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I cannot recall it at all.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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We are not supposed to impugn people when they are not here to defend themselves.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I am thinking, for example, of the areas of family law, labour law and equality legislation. The mid-1970s was a time of huge change in Ireland which resulted in Irish people embracing the European dimension in a way that has not faltered since. If there is experience or expertise that we can give to Moldova along the lines mentioned, we would certainly do that.

I apologised earlier on behalf of our colleague, Deputy Berry, who, as I said, was called away. I have been taken to task because he informs me that while he was called away, he is still very much listening although he cannot contribute. He asked me to remind both of our guests that he is listening to every word here and he looks forward to meeting Ambassador Gerasko before the end of the week.

I will ask Mrs Miculet to respond and then we will wrap things up.

H.E. Mrs. Larisa Miculet:

I will begin by responding to Senator Wilson. I said that 700,000 refugees crossed through Moldova, probably back and forth, according to border control agencies in Moldova. I read in the media this morning that in the last 24 hours, 10,000 Ukrainians crossed into the country. That is the flow every day. They are our brothers and sisters and we open our hearts. I cannot imagine that Moldovans could have behaved in any other way. There are 85,000 Ukrainians still in Moldova.

When I reported to the committee in March 2022, I shared the difficulties my country was experiencing at that time because we were not prepared for such a flow. Now mechanisms have been put in place, international organisations are there and we have European partners. The refugees receive appropriate allowances and so on, so everything looks settled. We are happy and consider it our human duty to support our neighbours and help them, so we are doing that job. I know a lot of Ukrainians opened businesses. They are employed, including as doctors, and their children are in school and kindergarten.

Many questions were asked about attempts to destabilise the situation in Moldova. I emphasise that this is nothing new for us. From the time Moldova and its people expressed themselves in different elections and showed their pro-European aspirations, these attempts started. They are probably more amplified now but we were aware of them. The country in question did not and does not like our pro-European aspiration. However, that is our path and we will follow it no matter what. Different tools are used in the attempt to destabilise Moldova in the so-called hybrid war against us. These include disinformation, proxy political actors, cyberattacks and many other methods. They are identified by our intelligence services which work very hard to deal with these attempts, and intelligence is also shared by different partners, including the Ukrainian side. As I mentioned in my statement, so far they have not managed to destabilise. They wanted to discredit our Government and, as Deputy Brady said, even gas and energy were used as a weapon in the efforts to destabilise the country. However, our Government managed to keep the situation calm and we continue to do that.

Deputy Brady also spoke about today's news. Unfortunately, I only saw parts of the speech in question. Of course, this affects our region. The Deputy was referring to the cancellation today of a decree which provided that the Russian Federation would look for peaceful best solutions to solve the Transnistrian conflict. My Government and the Moldovan authorities noted this information.

We are now looking carefully at the legal aspects and everything else. I can confirm, however, that my Government will not deviate from the basic principle we have always declared regarding seeking a diplomatic and peaceful solution to this conflict.

Mention was made of the airport and other declarations I am aware of in this context. Just a few days ago, President Maia Sandu said at the Munich Security Conference that as long as the Ukrainian army keeps Russian forces far from Moldova, then no imminent military threat will come through Transnistria at the moment. We are carefully monitoring the situation via the appropriate agencies in consultation with our strategic partners because we have a partnership with NATO. We are thinking about different solutions to keep Moldova stable and calm.

The energy issue was certainly a very difficult one for my Government to overcome this year. Prices increased five times over. Due to the support of our European partners, solutions were found. This allowed us not only to maintain supplies of gas, electricity, etc., to Moldova, but also, with our European partners, to help our population because this energy situation placed a very difficult burden on people's shoulders. Various solutions were found and the situation is now calm in this field. We are working further on this aspect, but, as I said, we now have other connections and we have other solutions in this regard. We will continue to work on this issue further, however, because not everything has been solved.

Deputy Brady referred to Ireland's willingness and intention to support us with internal and civil service reforms under the European public administration co-ordination exchange. He is absolutely correct in this regard. As part of the programme, during the upcoming visit to Ireland of the chair of our Parliament, we intend to have some meetings with high-level officials and to request support in correctly and efficiently spending public money and restructuring and enhancing the efficiency of our civil service.

I thank Senator Horkan for being with us today and for always being on our side. When I need his support, he is there. I thank him very much for this solidarity and support. I assume that in a few days when the chair of our Parliament will be undertaking activities for a full day here in the Oireachtas, there will be in-depth discussion regarding the situation in Moldova. The Houses will hear this information first hand and in detail. This will include what our priorities are and in which areas we will request Ireland's support.

Deputy Stanton is absolutely correct regarding what he said about propaganda and disinformation. I will not go into detail, but our authorities took serious measures, which were supported by our strategic partners. Despite being criticised by some people, these actions were needed to stop propaganda that was influencing ordinary people who are not always well informed. I refer again to what I said earlier about propaganda and hybrid war in this context.

I also thank Senator Joe O'Reilly for his continuous support. Any time I have had discussions, I have got advice and support from the Senator. Regarding invasion, we understand that we are fragile and that such a threat persists. Going back to what I said, however, as long as Ukrainians are fighting so bravely and keeping Russian forces far from Moldova we feel safe. We are vigilant and doing what is appropriate to strengthen our country's defence capabilities. We feel this is a situation that we must work on very strongly.

I thank the Chair for asking us about the political situation in Moldova. It is stable, despite all these attempts to undo it that we have just discussed. Our Parliament is following its full agenda. It is very much a full one because of our commitments to those European recommendations we must work on. As I said, we will inform the committee of the details of what is being done in a few days. Moldova has a new Government and we have a very pro-European Prime Minister. This new Government has come into office in the context of a planned transition and it has just announced it is going to accelerate reforms in Moldova. Equally, it is going to strengthen security. This team will, therefore, enforce our reforms. As I said in my statement, this Government was supported by a pro-European majority in our Parliament, so there are no worries in this regard.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ambassador Miculet for her contribution and the manner in which she replied to the questions from our members. I will now allow Ambassador Gerasko a brief moment to respond to Senator Wilson's question regarding sanctions, the frozen assets, the next steps in the sequestration and how these funds might be deployed for the reconstruction of Ukraine, if I have adequately interpreted his query.

Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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I refer in particular to the €1.8 billion identified here.

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

I thank the Chair. As I mentioned in my opening statement, the Irish Government has identified €1.8 billion of Russian assets in Ireland. These funds have already been frozen. As I said earlier as well, we need a real, fast and legal mechanism to allow this money to be directed to compensate for our losses.

In many other countries, assets were identified but unfortunately there is an absence of a legal mechanism on how you direct these frozen assets to Ukraine for compensation. That is why we urge all countries to adopt legal mechanisms for how to direct these frozen assets to Ukraine. We are working on this. If the Chairman does not mind, I will also answer Senator Horkan.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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We can keep it brief because he is not here.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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No, I am here.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Oh sorry. My apologies. Of course, ambassador. Go ahead. I am not used to Senator Horkan being here. He is not here much.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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It has happened before. I do not know why.

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko:

First, I want to thank everyone for not asking me how long this war will last. Instead, they have asked how to help Ukraine to end it faster. I really appreciate that. Your support, the support of Ireland and the support of all our partners is very important to us. As I mentioned, the sooner Ukraine gets security assistance the faster we will win. Of course we need political support and access to full EU membership. Co-leadership in implementing a peace formula is very important. Accountability is a key element of the peace formula. This involves directing frozen assets to Ukraine to use for the rebuilding and reconstruction of our country. The financial support and support for our country that is provided from the European Peace Facility and within the framework of the European military assistance mission for Ukraine is, of course, military support but there is also an appreciation of those with neutral status. We need all kinds of supports and further pressure on Russia.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I thank the ambassador. I will bring matters to a conclusion by expressing my appreciation and the appreciation and thanks of members of the committee for a really important discussion. I thank the ambassador of Moldova, Ms Miculet, and the ambassador of Ukraine, Ms Gerasko, and her team for being with us. I invite the members of the committee, our guest ambassadors and the ambassadors in the Visitors' Gallery to stand briefly at the Ukrainian flag upstairs as a gesture of solidarity before we leave the building. I remind members that I am going to defer private business and we will adjourn until Tuesday next.