Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 16 February 2023
Public Accounts Committee
2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Resumed)
9:30 am
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome everyone to the meeting. We have received apologies from Deputy Verona Murphy. Members and witnesses attending from within the committee room are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19.
Members of the committee attending remotely must continue to do so from within the precincts of Leinster House. This is due to the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the Parliament. The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness to the committee. He is accompanied by Mr. John Crean, deputy director of audit at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.
This morning we will engage with officials from the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth to resume examination of the appropriation account 2021 for Vote 40 – Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. The committee is particularly interested in direct provision expenditure and international protection, emergency accommodation, modular homes, and accommodation contracts and related processes. We are joined by the following officials from the Department: Mr. Kevin McCarthy, secretary general; Ms Carol Baxter, assistant secretary; Ms Sheenagh Rooney, assistant secretary; Mr. Toby Wolfe, principal officer; Ms Laura McGarrigle, assistant secretary; and Ms Lara Hynes, acting assistant secretary. We are also joined by Ms Jessica Lawless, principal officer of the Vote section of the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. They are all very welcome. In addition, we have the State architect from the Office of Public Works, OPW, Mr. Ciaran O’Connor. Mr. O'Connor is very welcome also.
I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are switched off or on silent. Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and practices of the Houses as regards references they may make to other persons in their evidence. As they are within the precincts of Leinster House, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to the committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure it is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 218 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
I now call on the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, for his opening statement.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Members are happy enough with that. I welcome Mr. McCarthy back. He was here in October. As detailed in his letter of invitation, he has five minutes for his opening statement. He may proceed.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
I thank the committee for this invitation to further assist it in its examination of the 2021 appropriation account of the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. The Chair already introduced my colleagues, so I will not reintroduce them. In my opening statement, I was going to give a brief overview of the main features of the Vote. We have also supplied more detailed briefing material in advance of the meeting, which hopefully provides a fuller picture of the work of the Department and its expenditure in 2021.
To remind members, as they are aware the Covid-19 pandemic continued to impact on how we delivered services in 2021 and required ongoing responses and supports in adapting to public health restrictions while continuing to deliver on our objectives to enhance the lives of children, young people, adults, families and communities, to recognise diversity and to promote equality of opportunity.
The total provision for the Vote in 2021 was €1.923 billion, which included capital carryover of €4.1 million. The current expenditure allocation was €1.887 billion, with a further €36.1 million allocated for capital expenditure, including capital carryover. The net allocation for the Vote was €1.884 billion when appropriations-in-aid of €39.1 million are taken into account. The final outturn for the Vote in 2021 was €1.785 billion, with a surplus of €98.5 million, of which €3.2 million was deferred as capital carryover to 2022, leaving a total to be surrendered at the end of the year of €95.3 million. Three spending areas represented almost 90% of the overall Vote spending in 2021, namely, Tusla, the Child and Family Agency; early learning and childcare; and international protection seekers accommodation.
Covid-19 impacted on spending across a number of areas of the Vote. In quarter 1 of 2021, the early childhood care and education, ECCE, programme was suspended and access to other early learning and childcare services were restricted to children of essential workers and children experiencing disadvantage. For the remainder of 2021, there was a reduced demand for early learning and childcare owing to changes in parental working arrangements and other Covid-19 related issues. This led to savings across all early learning and childcare funding programmes - ECCE; the access and inclusion model, AIM; and the national childcare scheme - and an underspend of €46.7 million, or 7%, of the allocation of €640.2 million for early learning and childcare.
The impact of Covid-19 also contributed to an underspend of €27.2 million, or 12% of the 2021 provision of €218 million, for international protection accommodation and related service costs. Restrictions on international travel resulted in lower than anticipated arrivals and demand for international accommodation in that year. Towards the end of 2021, expenditure across the Vote, particularly in areas such as early learning and childcare and international protection accommodation, started to rebound. As restrictions eased, other areas on the Vote also started to return to normal patterns of spending.
2021 saw important progress on a number of important policy and legislative milestones for the Department, including the announcement of major reforms to the funding model for early learning and childcare services, the publication of the National Action Plan for Childminding, the publication of an action plan for survivors and former residents of mother and baby homes, the publication of the White Paper to end direct provision and the signing into law of the Gender Pay Gap Information Act 2021. Important progress was made in that year on a number of Bills which have since been completed and enacted in respect of assisted decision-making capacity, birth information and tracing, and institutional burials, to name some of the highlights.
In referencing the area of international protection, I am conscious of the particular interest that the committee has expressed in the areas of expenditure on international protection and emergency accommodation. The State is currently accommodating more than 77,000 international protection applicants and beneficiaries of temporary protection, made up of 19,741 international protection applicants and more than 57,500 people from Ukraine. This time last year, there was a total of 7,500 people in international protection accommodation. Meeting this tenfold increase in the overall numbers accommodated has involved huge operational challenges over the course of the past year. All of the accommodation capacity within the International Protection Accommodation Service, IPAS, system is currently being used. Intensive efforts are being undertaken daily by staff in the Department to source emergency accommodation. However, procuring enough beds to keep pace with incoming arrivals remains extremely challenging. This is particularly so in the case of accommodation for single males. This has now entered an extremely difficult phase, with insufficient new accommodation for international protection applicants at scale available in the short term to medium term, and a number of international protection accommodation contracts coming to a close. The overflow facility at the Citywest transit hub has reached capacity. It became necessary to pause arrival of new international protection applicants, IPAs, into the overflow facility at Citywest from 24 January. Since the paused entry, the total number of IPAs who were unable to be accommodated now stands at 203 people as of 15 February. The situation remains under close review.
The sheer scale and urgency of need inevitably means that emergency accommodation for those seeking refuge must be occupied on a faster timeline than would otherwise be the case, thereby limiting the time window for advance communication with communities. The Department is aware of the need to address information deficits in these circumstances. We are committed to working with elected representatives, local authorities and local communities to ensure local dialogue is fact-based and to counter misinformation that is used in some instances to generate fear and resistance.
The committee is well aware of the related accommodation pressures associated with our humanitarian response to the war in Ukraine. As I said, some 57,500 people have been provided with accommodation here since the temporary protection directive came into effect following the outbreak of the war. This is the largest mobilisation of humanitarian support in the history of the State. The accommodation response has involved contracting and activating serviced accommodation across hotels, bed and breakfasts, guesthouses, hostels, self-catering accommodation, and repurposed and refurbished buildings; using sports centres and arenas, scouting facilities, properties offered by religious and voluntary bodies, student accommodation, military facilities, temporary tented facilities and emergency rest centres; and availing of pledged accommodation in people’s homes or second properties. Specific planning exemptions have been used to facilitate the use of repurposed office buildings and rapid-build homes as part of the overall response. There are now in excess of 700 accommodation provider contracts in operation as part of this broad national effort. The provision of immediate shelter is part of an all-of-Government humanitarian response to the needs of people arriving from Ukraine. We are continuing to work closely with colleagues across government in addressing the challenges associated with the scale of response that has been mobilised, in identifying risks to future accommodation supply and in addressing any policy considerations associated with our approach. We are very grateful to the communities throughout Ireland that have given their support to this national effort. The overall requirements of this response, including the use of various forms of emergency accommodation, has had and will continue to have a significant impact on costs in 2022 and 2023 as the Department continues to deal with the challenges of providing safety and shelter for those seeking international protection here and those fleeing the war in Ukraine.
I would again like to take this opportunity to thank all of my colleagues in the Department, and our partner agencies and providers, for the enormous contributions they have made in sustaining delivery on so many of our objectives during 2021 and since, in the face of unprecedented challenges. I thank the Chairman and committee members for their attention and look forward to their questions.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I welcome our guests and acknowledge their dedication and hard work in leading the country's emergency response and providing accommodation and service for more than 77,000 refugees who have arrived in Ireland since March 2022. It is much appreciated. It is Mr. McCarthy’s second time visiting the Committee of Public Accounts in a short period and we appreciate his time.
Mr. McCarthy has outlined the situation in regard to the overflow facility at Citywest transit hub, which has now reached capacity. He mentioned that the arrival of new international protection applicants has been paused. Will he provide the committee with an update in regard to the establishment of a second transit hub? What plans are being put in place to accommodate the 203 refugees who are unable to be accommodated?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We are in negotiations at the moment in respect of a potential second transit hub. However, it is important to emphasise that a second transit hub does not necessarily solve our problem. As I outlined, the number of people to whom we have been unable to offer accommodation since 24 January now stands at 203. A second transit hub would have bought us sufficient time in terms of an additional holding facility for those 203 people and potentially others. In the absence of a sufficient pipeline of onward accommodation for international protection applicants, however, we would quite quickly run into the same problem again, to be frank about it. It is therefore a more fundamental challenge for us in terms of the scale of the potential pipeline of accommodation.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is the procurement and establishment of a second transit hub something that is currently being actively pursued?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is there a timeline associated with that?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. McCarthy believe it is important for the Department in terms of the operational element?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
Yes. All additional capacity is important. A second transit hub would allow us to take some of the pressure off the Citywest transit hub, which has clearly been operating under significant pressure for a considerable period of time. The decision to pause entry into the overflow facility there was taken as a result of concerns around the impact of the sheer numbers that were being managed overnight there.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is it hoped to have that operational this year?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Will it happen within the next number of months?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In relation to IPAS, I will focus on the provision of accommodation. Will Mr. McCarthy outline the different types of IPAS accommodation currently in operation? He mentioned the emergency centres. How many emergency centres are currently in operation?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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A breakdown in regard to the different types of accommodation will be sufficient.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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When the Secretary General talks about 46 accommodation centres-----
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
Sorry, that is not the total. There are 123 emergency accommodation centres in addition to those. There is the national reception centre in Balseskin and the Citywest transit hub we have referred to, and we are using temporary tented accommodation in Kilbride. That is a total of 172 centres.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What is the level of expenditure associated with IPAS accommodation? What is the Estimate for 2023 versus 2021?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is to host the 19,000 international protection applicants currently in place.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What is the breakdown of expenditure by location?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That would be very useful.
Regarding the-----
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What is the increase on the 2021 figure?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Regarding the appropriation accounts in 2021-----
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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As I am conscious of time, perhaps the Secretary General might revert back to us.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Therefore, it has increased by €163 million.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is just for international protection applicants.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I move to the hotel contracts to house refugees, which predominantly is for beneficiaries of temporary protection but also includes international protection applicants. How many hotel contracts are currently in place?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does the Department have the expenditure associated with the number of hotel contracts? The reason I am asking-----
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Thanks.
Regarding the demand for hotel accommodation which is predominantly being used by the Department to accommodate refugees, many contracts are currently up for renewal as they are due to expire. What steps is the Department taking to secure accommodation in the coming year?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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How difficult has it been to engage with some hoteliers who want to move out of this space?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
On the Ukraine front, we have not lost contracts as yet. I referred to the fact that on the international protection front we are losing contracts, which creates a difficulty for us. The Government agreed before Christmas to move to a new form of provider contract for hotels - what we are describing as a bed-only contract. It is a contract under which residents or Ukrainian beneficiaries of temporary protection would pay for their own meals, which changes the contract terms. We have been in contact with a number of hoteliers whose contracts are expiring or are due to expire to offer them the new contract terms. Nobody has refused to sign the new contract as yet, but a considerable number of hotels are reserving their position or have not confirmed their position as yet. There is a clear risk to us of losing contracts but we are not able to put a figure on that at this point in time. A good number of contracts will come up for expiry at the end-of-March period because, as the Deputy might expect, that is one year on and from that point on, 12-month contracts will increasingly be coming to a close.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is there an indication of the shortfall of beds that will result from a number of these contracts not being renewed?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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How many have been lost to date?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We have not lost any as of yet. There are hotels and other providers which have decided at different points of time not to stay with us. They have offered us contracts for a period of time. Even coming into last summer, we would have lost some contracts coming into the tourist season.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It has been reported-----
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It has been reported that there will be a shortfall of over 3,000 beds.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is that figure accurate? Is the Department concerned about it?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is the Department aware that it will lose a number of beds?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We need to plan on the assumption that a number of people will decide not to renew. That is our planning assumption. If we take a 10% attrition rate, that gives us a particular shortfall. If we make assumptions of the rate of daily arrivals, on that basis we have projections of significant shortfall across April and May and so there is a challenge for us.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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An issue that has been raised with many public representatives is the unpaid hotel invoices. How much is currently unpaid to hoteliers who have invoices pending payment?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There have been reports of hoteliers waiting up to ten or 11 weeks for invoices to be paid.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We are really dependent on hoteliers to provide a service on behalf of the State. They then have major difficulties with cash flow. What is the Department doing to address the issue?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What is the figure for what is owed to hoteliers?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
I cannot give a precise figure for what is owed at any particular point in time because invoices will have arrived in yesterday and this morning. It is a constantly moving picture, but we monitor closely the number of invoices on hand at any point in time. In terms of what we have done, an additional 22 staff were borrowed from other areas of the Department before Christmas to help to clear that backlog. Some €200 million was paid out in November and December. Since Christmas we have put additional staff into that team again in January to try to clear backlogs. So, we are confident that the pace of processing invoices has picked up, but there is a resource challenge for us in keeping pace with the scale of demand on that front. There is no question about that.
The fact that we have over 700 providers now shows that the scale of operation has grown hugely. That gave us that challenge towards the back end of last year, where clearly the invoices were building up. As the Deputy rightly points out, providers were waiting considerable periods of time to be paid. That is not in anybody's interest. It is certainly not in the interest of the providers. It is not in our interest, in terms of trying to keep people on board. So, we are very conscious of this as a significant priority. We are doing what we can in terms of-----
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Has the Department lost any contracts as a result of dissatisfaction?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Have the recent protests throughout the country had an impact on hoteliers renewing contracts or entering into IP contracts?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
There is no question that there is a considerable reluctance on the part of providers to become involved in international protection provision, which is a reluctance we do not see on the Ukraine front. That has been a huge challenge. The protests are not helpful from that point of view, to be perfectly frank about it, because providers are hesitant. They have concerns and fears around bringing trouble on themselves or their communities. That is certainly a challenge. It is a particular challenge, as I mentioned, as regards single males because a narrative seems to have got out that single males somehow present a threat to communities. There is no evidence for that. In fact, the evidence over 22 years is to the contrary. It is a narrative we need to challenge. These people do not present a threat to communities. There is an onus on all of us to try to challenge that narrative. Certainly, it has fed into a reluctance. We are seeing the impact of that as we try to secure contracts for international protection.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Secretary General and the full complement of officials. It looks like half the Department is with us today. I appreciate they are extremely busy in responding. I think I am correct in saying the Vote before us concerns approximately €1 billion and the Vote that will be before us for 2022 will involve approximately €2 billion, which shows the scale of the increase in expenditure in this area by the Department and the resultant increase in activity. As Deputy Dillon did, I acknowledge that challenge, from a manpower perspective if nothing else.
We should not have to say this but in challenging operational weaknesses or service delivery issues, it is important we are not in any way seen as giving succour to the idea that Ireland should not cope with the challenge of international protection, not just from the perspective of international responsibilities but our own responsibilities. If I ask tough questions, it is not in any way to suggest we should not rise to the challenge.
I will focus a little on the issue Deputy Dillon raised regarding international protection. The numbers have increased very significantly. Has the Department done any work on projecting where that might go in 2023? What patterns are impacting that?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We consistently keep projections under review in respect of both international protection and Ukraine. There is consistent reporting on projections of potential arrivals, accommodation supply and potential associated shortfalls at any time. There are many variables in that, particularly on the Ukraine front, where the rate of arrivals can be unpredictable. On international protection, we are seeing a fairly consistent flow as regards numbers.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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For the record, what was the increase last year compared with 2021?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Department expect a similar number for 2023?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Is it likely we will get to December and might have up to 40,000 people in emergency accommodation?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
Some 19,000 are being accommodated now. If another 11 months are added to that, on the basis of an annual arrival rate of 15,000, we will get to quite a large figure for the numbers we will potentially be accommodating by the end of the year. Obviously, people also exit the system over the course of the year as they receive status-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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On that number, people exit in two ways. There are either granted protection or their application is denied. How many applications reached that conclusion in 2022 and are expected to do so in 2023?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We have monthly data on the number of people who receive status. The Department of Justice maintains good data on the numbers who have been refused status at any time. We can share that data with the committee. The exit rate of people with status who have been leaving international protection accommodation, for a good number of months last year, stood at in or around 50 or 60 a month. It has gone up to about 90 a month but it is still way off where it needs to be to free up capacity in the system.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Even if that was brought up to 100 a month, we would we talking about maybe 1,000 or 1,500 leaving-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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-----but with the potential for 15,000 to flow into the system.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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In the scramble for accommodation to accommodate the 15,000, is there also an equal challenge, which perhaps we are not seeing yet, to increase the capacity to process applications?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
The Department of Justice is responsible for processing applications. It is putting a lot of work into achieving faster decision-making. The challenge from our point of view, as the providers of accommodation, has been that even where people are processed and receive a decision, we are not seeing them exit the international protection system as a result of wider constraints-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Accommodation.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
-----in accommodation availability. We have 5,040 persons with status within the system at present. That is taking up a considerable amount of capacity within the system for international protection applicants. Our duty is to provide accommodation for international protection applicants. People with status have the same rights to housing and accommodation as others-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I will stick with the patterns and where they might go. Does Mr. McCarthy believe the proposed changes in the UK had a significant impact on the flow into the Republic?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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To help us understand that, traditionally, people claimed asylum at a port or airport. What percentage of applicants are making claims at ports and airports versus those who do not?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. McCarthy saying that up to 60% may be-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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If Mr. McCarthy is saying more than half-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Up to 60% of people claiming asylum are not doing so in a port or airport.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Given we have not seen 7,000 or 8,000 people land on beaches around the country and so on, that implies the only other entry point is across the Border.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Given it is the stated objective of everybody, almost universally in this House, not to have a hard border on the island, I am not suggesting that in any way, that leaves a very significant challenge if we do not know the source of arrival for more than half of our applications.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
Yes. To the Deputy's earlier question on the impact of the regime and policy choices in the UK, it is probably worth saying this is an EU-wide challenge. We are not unique in terms of the impact we are seeing here. In some ways, as others have commented, and in a sense we are catching up with the European experience as regards the scale of migration we experienced last year and will this year.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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As the UK is outside the EU, I imagine the Dublin Agreement does not apply there in that case. Is that correct?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Ireland would be the first country of entry from the EU perspective.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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We are getting to an area that I did not want to get to but which we need to try to understand because this impacts the whole service delivery and how we project where the demands will be. There will probably be more work to do.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Okay.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. There is no monitoring or hard data on which Mr. McCarthy can put his finger?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I will move to the procurement side of things. When the budget of a Department is increased by 100%, there are bound to be areas of non-compliant procurement. The Comptroller and Auditor General raised an issue in respect of the procurement of accommodation. Will Mr. McCarthy talk to us about the process of how sanction is given? Is there interaction with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery, and Reform on an ongoing basis in terms of the sanctioning of the overall spend? How does the Department ensure value for money in a situation where, as Mr. McCarthy said, there is a scramble for accommodation?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We operate to pricing guidelines for what we procure. That informs decisions in respect of contracts that are entered into. There are obviously value for money considerations. A reality in the current environment is that there may be opportunistic behaviour in a market where people feel you are desperate and, therefore, willing to pay any price. We must avoid that. We cannot simply pay any price. There must be value for money considerations. We are guided by that. There is continual engagement with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery, and Reform in respect of overall spend on accommodation. We are operating within sanctions. Clearly, when the war broke out last year and an emergency response was required, there were very early Government decisions about what was required. Departments were expected to step up and meet the challenges of the humanitarian crisis. Since then, we have had close engagement with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery, and Reform about the costs that are being incurred. It was agreed late last year that we would bring regular expenditure memorandums to the Government this year.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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We want to avoid a situation where this year's accounts are being considered by the committee next year and we are talking about very high levels of non-compliant procurement or what the committee might consider bad value for money. Is the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth applying emergency oversights now so that the Comptroller and Auditor General will not bring an alarming report to this committee next year?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
On procurement compliance, we make an annual return under Circular 40/02 which sets out all of the contracts that are procured outside the EU directive framework. As the Deputy pointed out, that included a considerable volume of contracts and a considerable sum of money in 2021. In 2022, it also involved a considerable sum of money. That is not to say, however, that the procurement is not competitive, open and transparent or that it does not offer value for money. We operate within guidelines.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. McCarthy is saying procurement offers all of those things.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
It offers all of those things. An EU derogation has been in place since the war broke out in Ukraine. It allows us to procure on an emergency basis. We publish every quarter in the EU Journala list of the contracts that have been entered into under the terms of that EU derogation. We will take advice on the matter but we will be including those contracts in the 2022 return under Circular 40/02 on the basis they are outside normal compliant procurement arrangements. The return for 2022 will be considerable and I expect the same will apply to 2023. However, we are doing what we can to comply with all of the requirements in respect of transparency and oversight of spending.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I have tested the Chair's patience.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
I will add another thing on the international protection side because it has come up. We issued EU directive-compliant requests for tender, RFTs, for accommodation in January and November of last year. That did not deliver anything near the scale of capacity that would be required. We have no option but to procure outside of those. That will be reflected in our returns under Circular 40/02.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The witnesses are very welcome to the meeting. I know Mr. McCarthy will not agree with me because I have suggested this to him before, but from the outside it certainly looks like the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is now very overloaded and in emergency mode. That is understandable, given the scale of what the Department has taken on. My concern would be the Department is not getting support from other Departments. I wanted to say that to begin.
Between 2020 and 2021, an additional 121 staff joined the Department. Additional functions also went to the Department. What is the current staff complement of the Department? Mr. McCarthy told us he is borrowing from other functions within the Department to make payments. What is the current staff complement?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Are some of those seconded?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is that the Department's full complement or has it approval for more?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We have approval for more. We have identified a need for up to 100 additional staff who are required on the Ukraine and international protection fronts. We are considering various recruitment strategies to bring those on board.
I will pick up on the Deputy's comments about support from other Departments. We put out calls for staff from other Departments over the course of past year and received positive responses in respect of each of those. A number of staff are on loan to us from other Departments, including key and valuable staff. That is good evidence of the extent to which we have been assisted and supported. It would be unfair to say we are on our own in terms of the management of this crisis. I do not want to let that point go.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I knew Mr. McCarthy would not let that point go but I do not want him to take up my time. That is my perception of the situation from the outside.
Is the Department working to a plan? Are there scenarios if certain things happen? The Department has put out calls for staff. A statutory instrument allows for particular buildings to be used in a manner other than what we would hope to see in the normal course of events.
I have met representatives of the HSE in community healthcare organisation, CHO, 7, who told me they have no additional resources to address the additional needs that will come with an inflow of people, particularly people who are coming from fairly chaotic situations. We need matching resources and not only housing. We also need GPs, schools and all that kind of stuff. Those resources are essential for good integration. I am looking at the evidence I have in respect of the kinds of supports that should be there and I have some questions in that regard.
I wish to ask the representatives of the OPW about the 500 modular units. In addition to all of the work the Department is taking on, it is also going to take on responsibility for the ownership of modular units and their future use. How is that going to work? How much are those modular units going to cost? What is the lifespan of those units?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Please do.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What would that look like? Would that be a full fit-out?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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They are half the size of a three-bedroom house.
Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:
They are 45 sq. m. They meet all our social housing standards. They could in time be converted to that use. We comply with all the building regulations etc. It is not a temporary situation. For instance, all the site layouts conform with the layout for social housing required by the Department of Housing, Heritage and Local Government.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth will manage an initial 500 units. That Department does not have a function in housing but it will acquire a number of units that may be in play for a very long time.
I hope that the war will end soon but how is it envisaged that the units will be managed?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Fine, because that would be a fairly intense issue. The Secretary General mentioned in his opening statement that the "Department is aware of the need to address information deficits". It is not unusual for public representatives to be told that a contract has been signed and people have already started moving into units, which is a situation that I have certainly experienced on a couple of occasions. The Secretary General continued, in his statement, to talk about countering misinformation. That is the vacuum from which "misinformation" will emerge. What is the plan to deal with this issue differently? Is the Department working to a plan? If so, what does the plan look like? Do the "information deficits" come into that?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
Deputy Dillon raised a question earlier of engagement with providers before contracts come to a close. We seek to maintain a clear picture at any point of time in terms of the emerging scenarios around potential accommodation shortfalls. We engage with colleagues across the Government on the impact of that. There is a number of strands to this, as the Deputy knows.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is there a plan?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
So obviously we keep a close outlook on a rolling ten-day basis in terms of accommodation that is available and anticipated numbers over the coming period of time. Beyond that, there is obviously a number of programmes or strands of work and the Deputy mentioned the rapid build homes.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Will we see something different with regard to dialogue?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
On the communications front, there is certainly a challenge and I have acknowledged the challenge that we faced where we are trying to move people into emergency centres. The biggest challenge has been on the international protection front. We have opened up 60 centres of international protection since 1 January last year. We have opened up over 700 centres of Ukraine accommodation since last year. In all of those, for the most part, communities have been welcoming and supportive. There has been a relatively small number but an increasing number, and an increasingly recent prevalence, of resistance to what is happening. We are very well aware of that. We are very well aware of the need to get clear information out to public representatives in those areas on time.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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That tends to happen, sometimes, after the event.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Can the Secretary General talk to me about the contracts? I share the concerns expressed by Deputy McAuliffe about what we might see in a year's time. So, last November, expressions of interest were put out and people came through. What vetting is done? Obviously there are pricing guidelines, suitability and all of that. Is that work done by the Department?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Do Department officials physically go out and look at places?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It is easier for us to envisage what the Department does about hotel accommodation. Can the Secretary General show us the application form that people must submit? Can he outline the process employed by the Department? Let us say the accommodation is not a hotel. What process does the Department go through in terms of the people who offer the accommodation, pricing guidelines and the suitability of the accommodation?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
There is a set of questions that we ask all people who are offering accommodation to respond to through the offers portal. So there is a standard appraisal approach then, based on that. They are triaged, in the first instance, on the basis of capacity and availability, how quickly are they available and what kind of capacity do they offer us. There are standards that were agreed with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage at the very outset in terms of any properties for vacant possession that are not hotels, for example.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Does that include information such as the number of showers?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Plus the mix of people.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Fire officer certification, presumably.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
Exactly. Fire certification is a fundamental one, obviously, namely, the need to meet particular requirements on that front. Also, laundry, if there is self-catering arrangements and what are the catering arrangements otherwise. We would look at things like location and proximity to services, and proximity to schools. All of those things would feed into our prioritisation.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There may well be proximity to schools but capacity within schools is an entirely different thing.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is a deep dive being done on that?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We have close ongoing engagement with the Department of Education. There is an official from the Department of Education now on secondment to our accommodation team. We also have somebody on secondment from the HSE on to our team as well. I think that is a reflection of the kind of close engagement that we have with those providers because obviously, we are very conscious of the impact on services in any of the locations that we are going into. As the Deputy will know, the Government approved a community fund, before Christmas, of €50 million to support communities which have taken significant numbers of refugees since the beginning of last year, recognising the impact on those communities.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We will take further questions on that. I know that consultation is a huge challenge. The Department has performed very well in terms of trying to deal with the scale of operations. On the consultation piece, as far as I can remember I have never ever received an email, letter, phone call, text or anything for 23 years and a huge number of people have been accommodated in my constituency, particularly in Portlaoise. We need to do everything that we can to help these people who are genuinely fleeing war, persecution and famine. We need to genuinely do everything that we can for them. In general, things have gone very well and that is good.
The briefing document supplied for today states, "Before the opening of any facility the Department engages with local representatives to provide information as soon as possible following the agreement of terms with contractors." I acknowledge that the window of opportunity is short and the task is challenging. It is a huge task and there are more difficult tasks ahead. As I was a county councillor up to 2010 and have been a Deputy since then, I have been a politician for 23 years. In all that time, I have never ever received any communication from anyone. I read about developments in local newspapers or somebody came to me with misinformation. You can see that an awful lot of bull or rubbish is spun on social media and on the grapevine about what his happening, what is going to happen and everything else but I have never been notified, which I find incredible. I understand that contracts must be signed and this work is a huge challenge. The Department deserves credit for the work that has been done. As Deputy Catherine Murphy has said, the impression is that the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is very much on its own in terms of this work and what it has been asked to do. The public do not believe that politicians do not know what is happening. The people who elected me do not believe that I do not know. They think that I know and I must say to them that I read about something in a local newspaper, which is a situation that contradicts what is stated here.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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A whole lot of facilities have been opened, Mr. Kevin McCarthy, and not just in my constituency but directly in the town that I live in and nobody contacted me, as far as I can recall. My secretary keeps a good eye on emails and stuff like that but I have not received any communication from anyone.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Somebody could put me on a mailing list or I can give provide my phone number so somebody can give me a call. I do not want that to be taken as saying we should not help these people.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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In the vacuum, what is happening is-----
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
-----misinformation gets out there. There is no denying that we have had capacity challenges in terms of our ability to get that information on the ground quickly enough when opening emergency centres. We are looking at how to do that better. The Minister of State, Deputy Joe O’Brien, was recently appointed to this area and is working on a new model of community engagement, trying to draw on wider resources such as local development companies in order to work with communities on the ground. A subgroup of the senior officials group is looking at the overall approach to communications and engagement across Government in these things. There is a strong recognition that we need to be more effective in what we are doing. I acknowledge that.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I will continue in relation to communications and consultations. Mr. McCarthy said there was correspondence but there has not been, to be perfectly blunt. That is not excusing the nasty narrative that is out there, particularly around single males being accommodated in centres, but the lack of communication does not help and is adding to the hysteria. Mr. McCarthy says he is looking into it now, after the horse is bolted. I appreciate he has a mammoth task, is under severe pressure and is looking at everything.
What he has to tackle is almost insurmountable but I will give an example of what is happening today, which people could replicate in their own areas. A certain impression is given, particularly in relation to international protection accommodation for single males, where it is sourced in multiples of ten and might be in a village setting. It happens overnight, sometimes after dark, and nobody knows anything about it, neither public representatives nor anybody on the ground. Mr. McCarthy mentioned the limited time window for advance communication but it is not really. His Department is already engaging with particular premises and sussing out whatever has to be done. A notification that the Department is looking at this to community leaders, public representatives and local authorities would mean the message is out there and people are informed of what is happening in their community, as opposed to waking up one morning to an additional 50-odd people in the community. They do not know when they arrived or any of that sort of thing.
There is fear regarding resources. Mr. McCarthy said he is now engaging with the HSE and Department of Education. Has he not done that up until now when housing asylum seekers? Has he engaged with the HSE in the past 12 months? If they said there was a shortage of school places in that area, or a chronic shortage of GPs, has the Department cancelled or proceeded with a plan to stay in that area?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
On the latter point, to be clear, engagement with the Department of Education and the HSE has been a feature of the approach from the outset of the crisis. There have been very good flows of information and we meet regularly on a bilateral basis. The recent secondment of staff to our team is just a further strengthening of that, rather than the beginning of that engagement. It has informed us from the outset. Both the HSE and the Department of Education recognise the pressure we are under in identifying available accommodation. The HSE has always been part of our international protection system teams and of providing support to international protection centres. There is always close engagement with the HSE in respect of where numbers are-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I know there is probably close engagement-----
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
On the Deputy's latter point on the extent to which we take it into account, we do. We have steered away from particular locations in terms of our procurement approach at various stages where we see numbers are significant and pressure is coming on services in such a location. We have engaged with local authorities and other State agencies to ensure we are informed at any point in time of where the pressures are. I am satisfied there is good overall engagement but that does not mean services do not come under pressure. It is important to say-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Does that engagement always result in additional resources from the HSE?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is the point. You can have all the engagement in the world, with respect. It is delivery of services that is needed where there are shortages.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
Absolutely. If GP services are under pressure in an area, they are under pressure. There are limits to what the HSE can do to address that if it does not have additional GPs to call upon. In the 2023 budget, significant additional resources were provided to the HSE to support the reach-in of services, including additional GP hours.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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In fairness, we know all about the HSE. I have asked whether that is a decision the Secretary General would take in advance. He has said he has ongoing consultation with the HSE but it does not necessarily deliver additional services if he decides he is placing 200 extra people in a small village setting.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is fine. Time is of the essence. I just wanted clarity.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is what we can see on the ground as the result. Mr. McCarthy said 203 people is the most recent figure of those arrived who were unable to be accommodated. Where do those people go? Are they on the street or on park benches?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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They are not offered a place so there is-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is fair enough. I am just asking.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
The gross number of people not offered accommodation on their day of arrival was higher than 203. Some 119 have been offered accommodation subsequent to their arrival on 24 January. All of these people are essentially on a waiting list for accommodation. We take their details and will offer them accommodation as soon as we are in a position to do so. I have referred to the huge scale of the challenge that we have, particularly in respect of single males.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I accept that. There are 203 who have not been offered accommodation. Is that right?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Can Mr. McCarthy estimate the average number of daily arrivals from here on in who will not be offered accommodation?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Based on your knowledge thus far.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I want to ask about hotels and contracts. I read somewhere that of 141 hotels, only 51 have thus far confirmed they are prepared to renew their contracts. Mr. McCarthy said the figure of 300 bed losses was a conservative estimate. Where will they go? What will happen? There does not seem to be an alternative. There was a commitment of 2,000 modular homes. When are the first 500 scheduled to be delivered?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The contracts with the 141 hotels are due to expire in mid-March.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That will be to accommodate the start of the tourism season.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Thus far, 51 have said they will renew the contract. That leaves 90.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Ninety is substantial. There are 3,000-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Secretary General stated that the figure of 3,000 was a "conservative" estimate.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Does the figure just relate to quarter 1?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Does the figure of 3,000 plus relate to quarter 1?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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So, quarter 1.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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How many of the 1,000 beds under the vacant homes initiative have been procured?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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How many have been delivered?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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There were to be 1,000 beds through the vacant homes initiative under local authorities.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. How many have been delivered? How many of the 3,000 beds under the refurbishment grants have been delivered?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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No. There are two categories – the vacant homes initiative and the refurbishment grants.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am sorry. For the sake of clarity, it has been said that we would need 1,000 beds over the next three months because of hotels not renewing their contracts, 30 people arriving per day, and the prevailing chaos. How many of the 1,000 beds under the vacant homes initiative have been delivered? How many of the 3,000 beds through the refurbishment grants have been delivered? How many is the Secretary General confident will be delivered in the first quarter of this year?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Department has secured 245.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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So, the Department has secured none. That was my question.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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How many?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Of the 1,000 beds under the vacant homes initiative, how many has the Department physically got?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am talking about the 1,000 beds through the vacant homes initiative.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. How many-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Offered, but how many-----
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
They are not all occupied. Currently, 1,198 beneficiaries of temporary protection have moved into those properties. I do not know how many of those properties have been occupied, as there will obviously be more than one person in a property. The number that have been occupied is probably in the low hundreds.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Of the vacant-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Secretary General say those figures again?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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And 245 of the 3,000 beds under the refurbishment grants have been delivered and occupied.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is far below the target.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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My question stemmed from the conservative estimate of 3,000 people who, come March, would be out of hotel accommodation. We do not seem to have anything lined up to accommodate them. March is only two weeks away.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The task force has a long way to go.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
Part of the objective is to increase the rate and volume of supply through the refurbishment programme and to help to inform the extent to which any one of these strands, or all of these strands in aggregate, can meet demand over time. The basic challenge is that we do not know what the future rate of arrivals will be, but the fact that we have accommodated 55,000 people from Ukraine over the past year means that the supply pipeline is getting tighter in terms of our capacity. Whatever about the risk of losing hotels, our capacity to add further hotels is increasingly limited.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is the worry.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Secretary General for his presentation. I apologise, as I was asking questions in the Dáil at the time.
The Secretary General spoke about 77,000 international protection applicants in temporary protection and 57,000 people from Ukraine. My understanding is that the number of people from Ukraine is higher. Does that mean that a number are in private residential accommodation?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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From Ukraine.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Of those 70,000, are 13,000-----
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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If 70,000 have come to Ireland, approximately 13,000 are living in the community.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Of those 13,000, how many are accommodated under the programme where people volunteer to provide accommodation and are now getting some State support? Have we figures on that?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Yes.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We have figures for the number availing of the recognition payment. The pledge programme that was run by the Irish Red Cross was launched at the outset. We partnered with the Red Cross on that. Local authorities were involved as well and activated the pledges. Approximately 6,500 people have been accommodated through that programme and are included in the figure of 57,000. The 13,000 I am referring to are people who were not accommodated through any of our strands of activity.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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There are 13,000 who have not been accommodated under any strand and in respect of whom there is no State support.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
Yes. They are not being accommodated by the State directly. They may have had connections in Ireland beforehand or they may have gone into privately pledged accommodation arrangements. For example, Facebook organisations and a number of charities ran their own pledged programmes outside of the Red Cross process. We are aware of a considerable volume of those. There are 5,900 applicants receiving funding under the recognition payment scheme, which offers €800 per month to people hosting beneficiaries of temporary protection, and there are approximately 12,800 Ukrainian beneficiaries of temporary protection associated with it. If 6,500 of those have come through the Red Cross process, it suggests that there are a further 6,000 at least who are in some form of accommodation that was pledged outside that process.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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All of the 13,000 would be getting State support of some description.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Not the beneficiaries themselves.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Regarding the 57,000 mentioned, do we have a breakdown of the age profile? It would be helpful-----
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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It would be helpful if we could get that information. Of the approximately 70,000 or so mentioned, how many are in the age profile under 18? What kind of numbers are we talking about in this regard?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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On the 19,741, it was said this has gone up from 7,500 in previous years. Why has there been a sudden increase in this figure to 19,741?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Was that from any particular countries?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
Again, we can give the Deputy a breakdown of the nationalities of origin, but a wide range is involved in this regard. Overall, it would seem that migration flows are significantly on the increase. As I mentioned, this is an EU-wide phenomenon. During Covid-19 movement was much more restricted, so there was some level of pent-up potential movement.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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What are the top three countries in the context of this 19,741? I know Ukraine is the top country, but what other three countries we are talking about?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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In relation to Georgia, my understanding, and I may be wrong about this, is that it is a reasonably stable country. On what grounds can we accept someone coming in from that country, on the basis of it being democratic? I have done election observation in Georgia. While it might have been several years ago, it is a reasonably stable country. I refer to this just as an example of a country where we are talking about people coming in from.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
Obviously, migration policy and border control is a matter for the Department of Justice. I preface anything I say with that point. Everybody who comes here seeking international protection has an entitlement under the recast directive to be accommodated while their applications are being processed. If a country is defined as a country of safe origin, then the Department of Justice's objective would be to process applications as quickly as possible and to prioritise the processing of applications from countries it would see as countries of safe origin.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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From the perspective of Mr. McCarthy's Department, it would be helpful if the Department of Justice processed those applications at a far faster rate.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I presume there has been ongoing consultation on this issue.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Over the next six months, is it foreseen that this process will speed up?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We do foresee that. The Department of Justice has identified significant staffing requirements to help to speed up its processing arrangements. It has strong objectives to try to fast-track or speed up those processing arrangements. This will be helpful in the sense that at least we will have clarity at an earlier point as to people's status. Obviously, however, when people present here they are entitled to accommodation as international protection applicants. One of the challenges I referred to earlier is that even when people receive decisions they remain on in the international protection accommodation with status. This has been the experience and this is part of the challenge we face.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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The reason I am looking for the figures concerning the age group under 18 is because there are many people from Ukraine now working here. My understanding, and the last figure I got was somewhere around October, is that around 11,500 or 12,000 people from Ukraine are physically working here. Do we have up-to-date figures in this regard? Once a person gets a job, how does this then affect their accommodation status and the contribution they are making in that regard?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am sorry to interrupt, but just to get some clarity, we are talking about Ukrainians.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I just wish to be clear about this. What was the figure for women aged over 20?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What was the breakdown for children under 18?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What are the other breakdowns?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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That is the number in employment.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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How does that then affect the issue of accommodation? These people are obviously earning money. Are they required to make a contribution towards the cost of accommodation?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
No. The Government decided back in December that all Ukrainian beneficiaries of temporary protection who are in fully serviced accommodation, hotel accommodation in the main, would be required to pay for their meals. A rate for meals has now been agreed. It is €10 per adult and €5 per child daily. We do not means test. This is all beneficiaries of temporary protection. Whether someone is in employment or not does not impact on their status in terms of the accommodation support provided.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Turning to Turkey, many people there are now without accommodation. I have been contacted by several families whose members are Irish citizens but who came originally from Turkey. They have family there whom they now want to try to assist. Has there been any discussion with the Department of Justice concerning this issue of people from Turkey who may need temporary accommodation here? I refer in particular to elderly relatives whose family members are here and who want to look after them for a time until the situation stabilises.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I accept that. Okay.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We will break for ten minutes.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I have some questions for Mr. McCarthy on the overall costs. What is the projection for 2023? I think he mentioned to one of the Deputies a figure of €363 million for IPAS.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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As for the beneficiaries of temporary protection, which as I understand it refers to the Ukrainian situation, what is the projected figure for this year? I acknowledge there probably will be movement in this figure.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is €641 million. So we are looking at approximately €1 billion.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We are looking at just over €1 billion.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
Just to say the outturn on Ukraine in 2022 was €593 million so it is around 8% of an increase on that. I referred earlier to the fact that we are going to Government on a regular basis to provide expenditure reports because we are monitoring that closely with colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Based on what is happening around the numbers rising, it would seem that, Mr. McCarthy said that €641 million is budgeted for this year. What was spent last year?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That would seem to be way under the mark in terms of forecasts.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is Mr. McCarthy basing that figure on-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We are looking at €50 million extra.
That does not appear to be taking into consideration the numbers that are arriving from Ukraine.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
The approach last year was that there was a contingency fund retained centrally for the Ukraine response. My understanding is that Government has retained a contingency fund for the Ukraine response again. That is what has been allocated as our Revised Estimate allocation for now but, obviously, that will be tested.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We have a Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform representative here. Would Ms Lawless be able to tell me whether we are getting any EU money in this regard?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Are we getting some?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, yes, if you could.
Returning to Mr. McCarthy on the numbers, I understand there is an EU directive in terms of assisting and we must play our part in that. In terms of the ratio of the number we are coping with per thousand of population at present, how does that compare with the other EU states? I am aware that Poland has done huge work. Its GDP per head of population would be fairly low. It would not be counted as a rich country. It is a big country with a large population, but not a rich country. They have performed well. I think it has taken 3.5 million. I saw a figure for Poland. In terms of the other EU states, how do we fair in comparison to France and others?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Are we talking about Ukraine now?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the Secretary General to through that slowly and not rush that as we want to hear that.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What has Poland got? Just give us the percentage.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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And Bulgaria?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, they are countries to the east.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Keep going now.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What percentage is France taking?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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France has taken 0.5% and we have taken 1.8%.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Britain is out of the EU. Do we have any figure?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I know that, but do we have any notion of what that is?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Apart from France, who is taking the lowest?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Who is next, working up from them?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What are they taking?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Can I ask a question?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I will let the Deputy back in after.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It is just that Greece and Italy have very large migration.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Of course, they have - from Africa.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am not opening that conversation.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am aware that Mediterranean countries have a huge influx from Africa. We understand that. As part of the European Union, I am trying to get a sense of what is happening. I am trying to get the picture. It is the first time I heard those figures. There are figures bandied about. In terms of what we are doing, as compared to the west or the 15 European countries before the last big expansion, we are top of the league in terms of how many we are taking.
For 2023, have we any figures for the potential number that we may have in terms of the Ukrainian situation? It appears to have slowed down. Would that be correct?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We watch the rolling seven-day average of arrivals. Over the course of the last year, that went from a considerable high in March, April, May and June, reduced somewhat during the summer and reduced again towards the end of the year. We have seen since the beginning the year that figure start to pick up. Over the last couple of weeks, we have seen a pick-up in the numbers in that seven-day rolling average.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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All of that would be determined today by the war.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The Department has obviously looked at projections for the year in terms of what this may look like come the end of December. What are we looking at in terms of sheer numbers in the Ukrainian situation?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Of course, on the basis of the war and what is happening in terms of the Russian invasion.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
Absolutely. There is a huge potential range in terms of the numbers. The Chairman will have heard some of the figures in the public domain. The Department of Health, in briefing of Ministers, had quoted a figure of 90,000 potentially. In terms of the different scenarios, scenario three of a number of potential scenarios is the one that we sort of see as being likeliest, which is where the conflict is consistent in terms of the current nature of the conflict.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Secretary General give me some figures?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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An additional 50,000.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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In terms of the IPAS, situation, there are 19,000. It is coming up near 20,000 now, from approximately 7,000. What if the current rate continues there?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Extra?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That would bring us to 32,000.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Those figures are very low from that, as the Secretary General states, 90 per month. We are looking at the Department accommodating 170,000.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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From 7,000, let us say, 12 months ago.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is the scale of what we are looking at here.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
I probably should clarify that those are the overall arrival numbers. Obviously, as Deputy Colm Burke pointed out earlier, there are a number of people who do not seek accommodation from the State now. Over time, the proportion that have sought accommodation from the State has increased. There was a stage where that was around the 80% mark. It is probably now around the 90% mark. That would only reduce the figure in terms of the demand for State accommodation, if that were to sustain.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There is a high percentage of adult Ukrainians now working. I can see, even on the briefing notes, the number has gone up 1,000 in the past couple of weeks. There are now in excess of 13,000 people who are working.
That is a success story as well. Well done to everyone on that. We want to try to assist them as much as we can.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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On the 5,000 people who are stuck in direct provision who have status under the different categories, which I am always trying to get my head around, they could be working in the community and living independently. Is the biggest barrier to that private rental accommodation and accommodation generally? Is housing the issue for those 5,000 people?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
Yes, I suppose. We are introducing some changes in, say, grocery point systems and so on within direct provision centres to remove some of the entitlements they have there. There is an incentive for people in a tight and expensive rental market to remain in accommodation that is provided for them. That is-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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And if you are in low-paid employment-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Many of those working outside of the centres would be in low-paid employment.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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So that is understandable.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We provide supports to persons with status to find accommodation. We have the Peter McVerry Trust and Depaul providing a service to work with them, assisting them in finding employment and accommodation. We also work with the local authorities on a distribution key and there is a distribution key agreed. These people would qualify for housing assistance payment, HAP, supports for rent, for homeless HAP services and so on.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The Department probably has a role in flagging up the direction things are going. There are 170,000 people, the accommodation situation is tightening and, added to that, per head of population, we are taking more than three times what France is taking. None of this is an argument to not help, by the way. We have to do everything we can. Is Mr. McCarthy, as Secretary General of the Department, flagging this up with the Minister for Foreign Affairs, the Taoiseach, and his Minister, Deputy O'Gorman? Has that communication happened? In other words, is this being taken up at European level? We are a relatively small state. We can see the challenges that Mr. McCarthy is facing. We do not want people finishing up homeless in the streets - Irish people, people seeking international protections or Ukrainians. That is the last thing we want. We want to try to end homelessness for everybody. Is this being flagged up?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
There is dialogue at EU level among home affairs ministers and so on around the operation of the temporary protection directive. There is a Cabinet committee on the humanitarian response to Ukraine, which all of the relevant Ministers are members of. All of these issues are discussed and subject to Cabinet confidentiality. All of the issues around the operation of the temporary protection directive are considered by that Cabinet committee.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is it Mr. McCarthy’s understanding that this is being raised at European level?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Under pressure.
On the modular homes that are planned, Mr. O'Connor said 45 sq. m. Typically, 45 sq. m would be two good-sized rooms - a bathroom, a hallway, a living area and a bedroom. Is that correct? They are one-bedroom units.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. They have two bedrooms. They would be quite small at 45 sq. m.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What size of household are we talking about? For example, is it a three-person household or a four-person household?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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A standard local authority house would be 90 sq. m or 95 sq. m.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I have been in ones that are 100 sq. m. I lived in a house that was 55 sq. m, so I am familiar with what it is like. They can be used for social housing afterwards.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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They are semi-detached.
Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:
Like semi-detached accommodation. There are two units. The idea was that if, in time, you wanted to reconfigure the floor area of the two together, it gives a full social house. We were cognisant of possible future use. It can be lifted and sent off to Ukraine as part of Ireland's aid to Ukraine later. It is a lift-and-plug house.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is good to get that clarification.
I will bring in members for a second round. We could have late arrivals if people are held up in the Dáil, so if everyone could bear with me on this. We will take six minutes each for the second round of questions. I call Deputy Catherine Murphy.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I have a few quick questions. Are the pricing guidelines public?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Right. Okay.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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On the 22 staff who were loaned, where did they come from within the Department?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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This is a very different Department from the one that was envisaged. I know there were additional functions and much has happened in relation, for example, to children, childcare and the mother and baby home legislation. It is not just one thing; there is a multiplicity of things. On mother and baby homes and the delay in files, is that a delay at the Tusla level or is that a Department staffing issue?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
Those are services provided by Tusla and the Adoption Authority of Ireland. The challenge that is faced is within Tusla and the adoption authority in being able to process the volume of requests that came in. A significant number of requests came in within the first two weeks of the commencement of that service, which has challenged them. However, they have clear plans in place to address the backlog of applications. We can provide figures on the numbers that have been provided with their information at this point.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We are all meeting people now who are stressed out. There is a human cost in relation to those delays. However, that is not a departmental issue. Does the Department have a responsibility to ensure Tusla has the resources to do that?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There was not an expectation of significant delays when people applied.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
No. There are clear targets in respect of responses for complex and less complex cases. Both organisations are committed to responding within those timelines and have set out project plans for when they will get to the point where they are responding within the agreed timelines. They both expect to be at that stage by late summer or early autumn.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I want to ask about the reductions in Tusla residential care made as a result of the 2020 spending review. What impact did this have on the cost and availability? Is it the same envelope that is available and is being stretched further? Respite is incredibly important to families. I would like an indication on the spending review.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
Tulsa has developed a strategy for alternative care that was informed by the spending review and other policy considerations. It has been quite reliant on private residential care providers as part of the overall mix. Approximately 60% involves private providers. There is an objective to reduce this to a 50:50 mix in the short term and a 40:60 mix over time. My colleague may have figures on where we are at with this trajectory. The reliance on private providers has reduced in recent years from the high of 60%.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How did that happen? Was it through purchases or leases?
Ms Lara Hynes:
It was through the implementation of the new strategic action plan on residential care which seeks to change the proportions. This is through purchase in the main. Some provision has had to be made in the context of accommodation for Ukrainian unaccompanied minors. In this context Tusla has developed some new centres.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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They also have to be staffed. It has a capital and current cost.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Has it provided additional spaces? Is it just from a financial perspective that it has made a difference?
Ms Lara Hynes:
The number of spaces increased in the same timeframe between October 2020 and 2022. It fluctuated somewhat. It increased from 415 spaces to 446 over the time period. Staffing is challenging in the current employment environment. It is challenging to increase the number of overall spaces but Tusla has achieved some increase in spaces over that period of time.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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With regard to unaccompanied minors, what numbers are we speaking about?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Are there plans for this vulnerable group?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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So there is no cliff edge.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I have dealt with some Irish nationals who were in care and their experiences have been quite mixed. I have come across people who have been badly let down with regard to having a future pathway.
I want to ask Mr. McCarthy to provide us with information on the process the providers go through. Will Mr. McCarthy provide us with this documentation?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I want to be sure that we get it so that we see it. What is the length of time it typically takes when a provider comes with an offer of accommodation? Deputy Munster made the point that once it is progressing through the system there should be a communication plan. I reiterate the point made by the Chair. People do not believe us. The loss of trust of communities in their public representatives is an intangible. I have had people tell me they went through the planning list and could not see anything on it. There is no appreciation that this is an entirely separate and very confidential process. The language people often use is that they feel disrespected. People just want to know what is happening in their own area with regard to buildings.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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They expect us to know and they think we are involved in something underhanded. There is a rumour mill and misinformation and we all know where that brings matters. Unfortunately it is used by some people to further a different agenda that we do not want progressed in this country. This is the question.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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This is not a case of something being offered on Monday with the contract being signed on Friday. This is a longer process.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We absolutely appreciate the point. With regard to how long it takes for an offer to come to fruition, it very much depends on the nature of the offer. An offer of serviced accommodation can be brought into play almost immediately. If significant capacity is offered to us, we will move on it very quickly. If there is an offer that involves some level of repurposing or refurbishment, the length of time it takes varies on a case-by-case basis. It very much depends on the scale of works involved. A major refurbishment may go to the refurbishment programme of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. We will take on short-term quick turnaround refurbishment. It is on a case-by-case basis. The contract negotiations that can be involved are also individual in terms of how quickly all of it can be transacted.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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More time is involved in modular accommodation.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That was the case with what I read in the local newspaper.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There has still been no phone call or letter.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
To be fair we have a good communications plan in place in respect of the modular programme, where there is a very clear lead-in time and sites are identified. We have people on the ground engaging with communities and speaking to their representatives and their local public representatives.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The point is that there has been zero communication. In this vacuum, the rumour mill gets going.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Briefly.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I apologise as I have been in and out of the Dáil Chamber and I have not been following all of the responses. Some of my questions may already have been answered. I will begin where the Chair and Deputy Catherine Murphy have left off. The briefing note provided for today in respect of emergency accommodation for those seeking international protection states that before the opening of any facility, the Department engages with local representatives to provide information as soon as possible following the agreement of terms with contractors. Does the Department now accept this is blatantly untrue?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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This is very important. The Minister repeats statements such as this. When we are in our constituencies, people tell us they have heard that a house is being used or a hotel has been converted to house those seeking international protection. We tell them we do not know.
When the officials and Ministers make this statement, it appears to people that their elected representatives are lying to them. This is really important and goes to the heart of the breakdown in trust among communities for which, I would argue, the Government is wholly responsible. There is a breakdown of goodwill. The last time officials from the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth appeared before the committee, we were all able to convey the absolute goodwill of our constituents towards supporting particularly those fleeing war and persecution. That goodwill has been entirely undermined and somebody needs to take responsibility for it because statements like this are purposely designed to try to shift the blame to others apart from the people who are responsible for it who are officials at the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
I made the point earlier that the window we have to inform public representatives is often quite narrow. We will not provide information to public representatives until such point as a new accommodation is confirmed and is across the line in terms of whatever discussions we are having. It may be that information leaks out ahead of that, which is outside of our control, obviously.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Here is the term that is in this document: "Before the opening of any facility, the Department engages with local representatives to provide information." That does not happen. I represent two counties which have seen several centres opened for emergency accommodation. In one instance, in respect of modular housing in County Cavan, I was informed beforehand. For all the others, not a single time have I had information to convey to my constituents; it has been as a result of my seeking it out. In every instance it has proved a battle to find the true information.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
The statement is correct in that we endeavour to provide that information to public representatives before opening any new centre, but there is a point in time at which that happens. Unfortunately, as the Deputy mentioned there, sometimes the information breaks for reasons outside of our control before we have reached the point where we are in a position to share the information. That is obviously unfortunate and puts public representatives in a difficult position. However, we cannot provide information on a new centre until such time as we have secured-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is a different argument. How many emergency centres are operational in respect of international protection?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It was 27 in November.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It has increased from 27 to 123 since December 2020. On how many of the additional 96 were local representatives provided with information the opening of the facility? That might get to the heart of where we are at.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am asking in-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I want a response within a week as to how many cases that has happened in. I would hazard a guess that it is a fraction of those cases. If that is the case, I want the Department to retract the statement that says, "Before the opening of any facility, the Department engages with local representatives" because it has not happened. As I have said, that has had serious implications not in terms of the local representatives because we are just conduits for information in this regard. If the Department is making statements like that in respect of local representatives when they are sitting in front of the Secretary General telling him it has not happened, I would have to query the assertions that the Department is also engaging in a deliberate way with the health service, with the education services and other public services. If the Secretary General is looking at me straight in the eye, as an elected representative I am telling him that the engagement he claims is happening has not happened. If he is saying essentially that it is, then everything else he is saying about engagement comes under a cloud in my view. I regret saying that because I know that the work we are talking about is very important and is an integral part of Ireland's role in trying to assist, particularly-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is this done in the same way as they do with elected representatives?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
I have said that we endeavour to provide information to public representatives before we open any new international protection emergency centre. I have also said that for reasons outside our control, information will often get out before we reach that point. There is a point at which we can provide information and a point at which we cannot provide information. We do not control what others out there may be saying on social media or elsewhere. That is extremely unfortunate and I acknowledge that it puts public representatives in a difficult position. We have also acknowledged that we need a better level of engagement with public representatives and communities.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I want to move on to some other questions because the Secretary General is absolutely missing the point. We all agree there needs to be better engagement and we hope that the Department will endeavour to do that. However, the Secretary General and the Minister are making statements as statements of fact insisting that the Department engages. It does not say that the Department endeavours to engage. It says that it engages with local representatives before the opening of any facility. I am telling him that is blatantly untrue.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We have to accept that it has happened in some cases, but it is not happening in-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I can say it is across the board. It may be happening with direct builds, but it does not happen with emergency accommodation in respect of hotels, houses etc.
When we met last October, I asked how many intermediaries are used by the Department and Ms Baxter said it was probably three or four. However, the correspondence from the Department dated 14 February, just in the last few days, states that only one intermediary was used between 2018 and 2021. Which of those is the correct position?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
On the international protection front, it is one intermediary. There are two intermediaries between international protection and Ukraine. I think we were upfront in acknowledging the last day that we did not have a handle on the numbers and in fairness three was a guesstimate. It turns out there is one on international protection and two across international protection and Ukraine.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I had asked a number of questions for which the departmental officials did not have answers the last time. How many properties are engaged via intermediaries? How many people are accommodated in properties engaged through intermediaries?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Do those 23 properties include individual houses?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Do intermediaries contract individual houses?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The departmental officials stated this the last time as well. A large house in my constituency was purchased recently. It is now housing Ukrainian refugees, for good or for bad. However, it does not fit in with the information we are receiving from the Secretary General.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In this instance I am told there are 11 residents.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Who determines the capacity?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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So, if the provider were to advise that they have a property with a capacity for more than 15 but a local authority fire officer says it can actually only accommodate 11 people, do I take it the property would no longer be used for that purpose?
Yes. Our intention is not to be contracting properties for fewer than 15 people. Obviously, there is the offer-a-home scheme, which the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the local authorities are operating, where any vacant homes can be offered for use to Ukrainians. They are individual, stand-alone homes, typically second properties owned by people, but we do not contract in that space. Our offer portal makes clear what our requirements are for any valid offer, and that threshold of 15 is clearly stated. The person providing the offer would have to meet certain space requirements and provide evidence the property meets the requirement, including documentary and photographic evidence, as part of the application.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is that the case even if they are going through an intermediary?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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A figure of just over 5,000 have status in direct provision and are in a position to move out if suitable accommodation were available. How many people in direct provision, in the IPAS system, have been refused status and what happens in that case? Of the almost 20,000 in total, how many have been refused? Mr. Kevin McCarthy may not have the exact figure.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I understand that but Mr. McCarthy's Department will be across the figures. It is a couple of hundred.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is the longest the applicants have been there for? Would some of those who have been denied status have been there for a year or two?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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As I recall, there was a White Paper on ending direct provision, and then Ukraine happened. I presume events overtook everything and we understand that, but my recollection of what was out there in respect of direct provision was that State-owned facilities were an option. Has there been any advancement of those plans?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We have purchased a number of properties that would have been described as phase 2 properties under the original White Paper proposals. I think 34 properties at this stage have been purchased. They would be smaller properties. We have shifted our focus on what are described in that as phase 1 properties, which are larger reception centres-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What size are the ones the Department bought? What is the capacity?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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In terms of capacity, is Mr. McCarthy talking about ones that would typically accommodate 50 people, for example?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is the longest period for which someone has been in direct provision?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We gave a figure in the correspondence to the committee earlier this week of 181 months. That seems to be rather anomalous. There is no reason somebody should be in our accommodation for that period, particularly given that the Department of Justice regularisation process would have allowed anybody who was here for more than three years to be regularised.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is more than 16 years.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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In that case, the status has been granted, has it?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is there somebody longer, therefore, with status?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Have a number of people been there for more than ten years?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Generally, what is the longest period these cases are taking to be processed? Mr. McCarthy's Department has to provide the accommodation and the Department of Justice has to process the applications. Obviously, there is a regular back-and-forth between them on all this. What is the longest period the cases are taking to be processed?
Ms Carol Baxter:
The Department of Justice has been working to a target of six months processing for first instance and six months for second instance, and it had achieved quite a lot of progress on that. Obviously, the very high numbers have now delayed that, but typically the process takes a couple of years now. That Department is working hard to come back to the six-month period.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Do we have a figure for the number that have taken more than five years?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is a long time. Is there any indication of the breakdown of that? Do all those cases not yet have status?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Approximately 1,700 people have been in direct provision for more than five years-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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-----and one person has been there for more than 16 years.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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This underlines the need, for the benefit for everybody including the people seeking protection, that the process be accelerated. That would take the pressure off the Department by freeing up accommodation. For those people who will be successful, their cases need to be processed quickly, but also to free up accommodation.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I understand that but they are in a position to do so.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is difficult. For that 5,000-plus figure who have status, the immediate step has to be to try to help them to integrate into communities.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is the total number of direct provision centres, between emergency and the other type?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The emergency centres tend to be smaller ones. Is that correct?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is the inspection rate for them? Does someone inspect them all annually?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
The same inspection regime would not apply to emergency accommodation centres as would apply to the designated centres, where there are national standards and a formal process. As the Chairman knows, HIQA is now being given regulatory authority in respect of designated centres. When it comes to emergency centres, we retain the services of QTS, an inspection firm, which we ask to inspect any centre where complaints or issues are raised by residents.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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HIQA will inspect the 46 designated centres but not the emergency ones. What is the inspection regime for them?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am trying to understand the process here. One type of centre is contracted and money is paid, and it is important we are getting value for money here. Does a departmental official go out, perhaps accommodated by somebody from the Office of Public Works, OPW, whether a technician, a clerk of works, an architect or an engineer? Who goes out to inspect them? Someone might have a large public house that has closed. Many of the centres might have been multistorey town centre premises and they might be out of use for a considerable period.
Who goes out to inspect those buildings?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We might engage a quantity surveyor or contractor to go out and take a look at it and provide a report to us. It may be that a member of our own team will go out and take a look at a particular property. If it is a very large-scale development, we take a very direct hands-on role in satisfying ourselves that it is suitable to meet our needs.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. McCarthy.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I will come back on the point about briefing. Mr. McCarthy obviously sees it very differently from the way we see it. I got a briefing in four instances. In one case I got a phone call to say the contract was signed and people were moving in. In another case, they had moved in already and I was being advised in retrospect. In a third case, information had emerged and a public meeting had been called. We got a briefing in advance of the public meeting, but we knew nothing about it other than that.
Mr. McCarthy referred to information getting out. Information gets out when people go in and start work on a building. Typically, what happens is that when the people on the building site go into a shop, they are asked what is happening. Mr. McCarthy says it is beyond his control.
In the fourth case there was an advertisement for a job for people to work in a centre and I got a press inquiry. I made an inquiry then to the Department to find out if it was true and what it was. That has been my experience. I suspect it is not terribly different from the experience of others. As the Chairman, Deputy Stanley said, he read some of it in the newspaper. I would not say I am untypical. Let me just put that on the record. That is how it is from our perspective. We operate on trust. People put us in here. They give us something very important: they give us their vote and they expect us to treat it with respect. I feel there is a degree of disrespect in not being able to impart accurate information to people. That can be valuable, as we know our local community, the people in it and how we can be helpful, among other issues. The very least people expect from us is that we will be honest with them. I find it very hard to be honest with them when I am not getting the information to be honest with them until after the event. That must change.
I also want to ask about the vetting of providers. During Covid, we saw what happened with ventilators. When there is an emergency situation the vast majority of people will be fine but then there will be a cohort of people who will not be. What vetting is done on providers? Is it tax compliance, company law and a range of other issues? It is good to hear that individuals from the HSE or Department of Education are part of the team, but what other disciplines are involved to make sure that it is not just value for money but that there will not be problems in the future?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
In terms of vetting of contractors, I am not sure what form of vetting we can do other than checking that somebody is tax compliant, has ownership or control of the property and is in a position to provide the property he or she is offering. We will satisfy ourselves on those issues in terms of checks. We do not conduct further background checks on people beyond what they are required to provide as part of the contracting arrangement. I want to make that clear.
I accept very much what Deputy Catherine Murphy says about the community engagement piece, and the fact that we need to do more and be better at that. We are taking that seriously. I hear what the Deputy outlined in the different examples and instances she described. We will reflect on that because it is our objective to retain the trust of public representatives in what we are doing. We rely on the support of public representatives to try to challenge the damaging narrative that can be put out there and to challenge misinformation put out there by people with their own agendas. That is absolutely in our interests.
I might have mentioned earlier that there is a group under the auspices of the senior officials group looking at the overall approach to community engagement and communications with a view to strengthening what we are doing on that front. It is resource-intensive given the rate and scale at which we are going into properties. There are lots of sensitivities around the timing of information that can be safely released. We must respect the process when we are involved in negotiation.
There have been lots of instances where information has been out there about a property that we know nothing about because somebody somewhere is preparing something that they are going to offer to us. That may be the word on the street, but we would not have been approached at that point so we would not be in a position to provide that kind of information. There are lots of scenarios that come into play. It is the reality that we will not always be in control of the narrative, but we can certainly do more to try to support Members in terms of being able to control the narrative at a local level and provide good information to people who need it, in particular local community leaders on whom we also rely on to support what we are trying to do here.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I wish to discuss the intermediaries. Mr. McCarthy indicated that there are 23 properties relating to emergency accommodation. I take it that is for non-Ukrainian refugees. Is that correct?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. McCarthy mentioned that there are two intermediaries specifically in respect of the Ukrainian programme. How many properties are under the auspices of those intermediaries and how many individuals are involved?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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At this stage we are talking about 100 properties through intermediaries. Is that correct?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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If my figures are correct, there are more than 5,000 individuals. That is substantial. From my reading of Mr. McCarthy's correspondence in respect of 2021, I had concluded that there were eight properties at that stage. In October of last year he indicated he was moving away from intermediaries and trying to deal directly with property owners, yet the number of properties has increased to 100.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How much was paid to intermediaries in 2022?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What is the total for general emergency accommodation?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We are up €50 million, which is a lot of money.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We spoke last time, and I am still not satisfied with the responses, about why a property owner would go through an intermediary. If I recall correctly, I was told that it was more or less on a par whether there is a differential in what the Department is paying on property through an intermediary versus through direct negotiations. I know there are different arrangements for each one. Is the Department satisfied that on average it basically is the same?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We are, yes. We have looked at that. The rate we are paying through intermediaries is consistent with the average. It is probably at the lower end of the average range. On why people would come through intermediaries, our preference is to contract directly with the provider. We have made it very clear in our offers portal where we put wording in place to say that we do not employ agents to act on our behalf because there may have been a misapprehension among some providers that there is a way in to this market through an established intermediary. That is not necessary because we consider all offers from direct providers of accommodation and we make that very clear.
There can be a benefit or value that the intermediary brings to the process in that we spoke earlier about provider reluctance to become involved in international protection provision, for example. It may be that an intermediary who is very active in this area is able to persuade providers to come on board and provide them with a reassurance around what it involves. That may be why providers have come to us through that route rather than coming to us directly.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Department inform the local authority about all these? I do not mean in the way that it informs elected representatives. I mean, does the Department formally inform local authorities that X property is now being used for this purpose?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am just following on from the questions the Chair was asking in respect of inspections. As a matter of course, would the Department expect local authority fire officers, for example, to carry out an inspection of all of the properties?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Beforehand?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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And who would carry out that fire certification? Would it be the local authority fire officer?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
The local authority fire officer would potentially inspect a property. Fire certification is a function of the local authority. We recently had to move out of accommodation where fire safety concerns were raised by the fire officer. It is obviously a function that they take very seriously and we take very seriously in terms of the requirements for any provider.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is an important clarification, if Mr. McCarthy is in a position to tell us that every property that is being used for emergency accommodation has a fire certificate through the local authority. That is an important point to note.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
On the sharing of data and information with local authorities, I want to make clear that local authorities are represented on the senior officials group and there is a weekly sharing of data with them around refugee locations and accommodations so that they are kept informed in real time of where people are going.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Returning to the overall projections, we have gone over the numbers we have at the moment. I have gone down through what is projected. The Department said it was 137,000 projected for Ukraine and we do not know because it depends on the conduct of the war.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We are all hoping that there will be a ceasefire quickly but it does not look like it, unfortunately. The experts say that. Unfortunately, it looks like it will grind on for months and possibly years, unfortunately. It is awful that people have to flee this. You are looking at 32,000 in international protection accommodation services, IPAS, and 70,000 in 2023. That is the best guesstimate that the Department can make. I know that none of us has a crystal ball. There is €1 billion budgeted for this year to cover both programmes. It is fair to say that if you have 170,000 people in total, that figure will have to be pulled up by about €300 or €400 million. You are probably looking at €1.3 or €1.4 billion.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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So you are probably looking at €1.5 billion to cover the cost.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am just taking a quick glance at the figures, you are certainly looking at well in excess of €1.3 or €1.4 billion, given what it is costing at the moment,
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
Depending on the scenarios that play out. You would hope in certain scenarios that people would be in a position to begin to return to Ukraine which is obviously the desire of many here. As the Chair says, unfortunately I do not see the geopolitics suggesting that is going to happen any time soon.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Most of them are from those war-torn areas and are the people directly impacted, obviously. Do we have any figures for the people returning to Ukraine out of accommodation that the Department is providing? Are there signs of that happening? It is obviously small enough.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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To put one myth to bed, are Ukrainians, whether or not they are working, paying for their meals?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Where people in direct provision are working, do they pay?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
In direct provision, no. They are in receipt of a daily allowance and they would receive accommodation and meals. Our grocery points are -----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I know if they are not working they are only on the €38 payment.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
The grocery points system that I referred to earlier was where there are self-catering arrangements within a centre. There is essentially a shop on the centre that supplies groceries etc. and all the essential needs. There is essentially a voucher system to allow them to meet their own needs.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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So there is an element of people providing for themselves.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I will turn briefly to the mother and baby homes. What is the total estimated cost of the redress for mother and baby homes?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Some 40% of those who were affected by that are not eligible because some were less than 180 days in the homes. If they were 179 days, they do not get anything. People might wonder why. I know this is a policy decision in the legislation but the party that I represent tried to change this. There are people who I am familiar with, including a friend of mine who was in a home for less than the six months but it did not alter the fact that he was farmed out from there, literally, to a family where he was physically, mentally and sexually abused in the subsequent years. I think it is unfortunate that these people were not taken into consideration.
On the financing of this scheme, what finance has the religious orders contributed towards this? What is likely to come from them?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
A negotiation is under way with six religious congregations and one lay organisation in respect of the contributions that they will make.
While those negotiations are under way, we have agreed to respect the confidentiality of the process. However, the Minister has given a commitment and made clear to the congregations that, when we reach that point, the outcome of the negotiations will be reported. We are a number of months away from that.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I acknowledge there are negotiations ongoing. Is it expected that a considerable chunk of the €800 million will come from the religious orders?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is Mr. McCarthy hopeful it will happen?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is there the possibility of compulsory purchase orders or transfers of property belonging to the religious orders if the cash is not there or where they say the cash is not there?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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However, earlier contributions fell short, including in the case of the Magdalen laundries scheme.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
In the case of the redress scheme for which the Department of Education had responsibility, there were protracted discussions around this issue, with various stages to the process. I really am not in a position to say what is or is not on the table in respect of what the congregations might be prepared to offer. We will report in full on that, through the Minister.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I do not expect Mr. McCarthy to say what it is but does he have a financial estimate at this point of what the religious orders may be able to contribute? If they do not contribute, the taxpayer will have to do so.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am not asking for the figure. Mr. McCarthy seems to have mistaken my question. Is there a range in terms of-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Department starting to get the shape or range of the figure?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Will all assets, including property, be looked at?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Organisations, like households, may be asset rich but cash poor.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses. The next speaker is Deputy Catherine Murphy.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I have a question on modular homes, 500 of which are being delivered on a pilot basis. What is the expectation for further provision beyond the pilot and what is the timeline for that?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We all want the work to be over soon to make up the provision for the bulk of the people who have arrived here from Ukraine in the past 12 months and who have been able to work from their time of arrival. Is work being done on recognition of professional qualifications? Is there a plan in this regard for the longer term? There are many people arriving here who have valuable skills. How is that aspect being handled? Is it a matter in which Mr. McCarthy's Department is involved?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We are not directly involved in that. Recognition of qualifications is, in effect, a matter for individual professional bodies. For example, the Medical Council or the Nursing and Midwifery Board of Ireland would have to be satisfied as to the process that any person presenting credentials from the Ukrainian equivalents would have to go through to meet the Irish requirements.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The process is quite fragmented.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
Unfortunately, yes, it is fragmented by nature. Where a profession is regulated, the relevant regulatory body would determine the requirements for that profession, whether it be the Teaching Council, the Medical Council or otherwise. I am aware that the various regulatory bodies are actively looking at what they can do to support Ukrainians by way of fast-tracking the normal processes they would have to go through to verify qualifications. It is an issue that is kept under review at the senior officials group. One of the challenges people have is around English-language proficiency. All of the education and training boards around the country are heavily engaged in offering English-language classes to people who arrive here. Whatever about recognition of qualifications, language difficulties can be one of the biggest barriers to people's full participation in the labour market.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Ukrainian people make up the largest group of arrivals but there are also people coming from other areas for whom recognition of qualifications will equally be an issue.
I spoke to the departmental witnesses on the previous occasion they were here about the level of suicide among Travellers, which is horrendously high. Can they give any progress update on the Department's initiatives in this regard, even within the period to which the accounts we are examining relate? I refer to investment in key programmes and their outcomes.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
A new Traveller health strategy was published recently. An overall Traveller and Roma inclusion strategy, with which the Deputy is probably familiar, has been in place for a few years. There is a commitment to review the strategy and that review is under way at the moment. The mental health challenges facing the Traveller community are addressed as part of the Traveller health strategy. I am not in a position to give the Deputy any targets or key indicators off the top of my head but we can supply that information.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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A note on it would be helpful. Unfortunately, because there are several pressing issues currently, other issues the Department would normally be dealing with are not getting the kind of attention we would like to see. This sometimes affects groups that are very vulnerable.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I thank Mr. McCarthy.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. O'Connor indicated that locations have not yet been found for all of the 700 modular units that are committed to be delivered. Of the locations that have been found, how many people will be accommodated there?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How many sites will that cross?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There is some work to be done, then, in identifying new sites.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Are these sites being offered predominantly by local authorities?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Do the local authorities contact the OPW or does the OPW engage with them?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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They came through the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. Mr. O'Connor will be aware there is some media coverage of the fact that certain areas of the country seem to be immune from any responsibility regarding housing, either through direct provision, emergency accommodation or now through modular housing. They just happen to be some of the wealthiest parts of the country, particularly some Dublin suburbs. Is there an effort being made to identify potential sites in those areas so that we can say there is a balanced approach? There is a sense that it is predominantly working-class areas where the majority of emergency accommodation has been provided.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In that instance, what happens?
Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:
We can only operate the sites that are offered to us. The selection rate of the ones we are offered is quite low, with 78% being deemed unsuitable. It is a significant issue for the Department and for us to try to address. You put a lot of time and effort into looking at something only to get such a high level of fall off. It is not the best use of our resources. For every eight sites we look at, we get one. That is something beyond us. We have to operate with what we are offered.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I will address this to Mr. McCarthy. There is a sense of unfairness about how this has been done in many areas, some of which have already suffered high levels of deprivation and low levels of service. That in turn feeds into the anger that we have seen, which is then manipulated by people who have a very regressive political agenda. From Mr. McCarthy's perspective as Secretary General, working in conjunction with the Minister, what is being done to make sure there is balance?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We keep a careful eye on that. When it comes to site selection on the modular programme, for example, site location is one of the key criteria to ensure there is a good geographical spread. However, as Mr. O'Connor has said, we are at the mercy of technical feasibility and quality of sites as well.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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If I understand correctly from what Mr. O'Connor has said, there are certain places that are not offering anything, so they are not even in consideration.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We are talking about areas that are the most beautiful places in the country to drive through. There are huge areas of publicly owned green spaces and other publicly owned land that is suitable. I am not suggesting that we just move in and build a pile of modular homes but we need to have a balance in terms of those areas.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We do try to seek as balanced a provision as we can. We have spoken quite a bit about all the pressures that are on us. We do not always have the luxury to be able to select or not select when something becomes available to us. At times, we are taking whatever is available, but we do keep an eye on that. The data around the distribution of beneficiaries of temporary protection are shared with players across Government at all stages. A keen eye is kept on that. The community support fund was put in place to try to support those communities that are seen as having taken on more of their share than others. There is an attempt to reward and support communities that have done so. We are actively involved in proposals regarding what might be perceived as the kind of areas the Deputy has described. We are very keen to get some of those across the line. The fact that we are in 800 centres now between Ukraine and international protection means that there is not a part of the country where people are not being accommodated. But I absolutely accept what the Deputy is saying.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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However, some parts of the country have remained relatively untouched-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I will finish on this point. There are rural communities and urban working-class areas where there is a high level of frustration with and disengagement from "official Ireland", to use that term. These are places where you cannot get a GP appointment or it is very hard to access any public service and that has been the case long before we had anybody seeking asylum in this country. Overwhelmingly it those same communities, because they are more likely to have a hotel that is closed or a building that is empty, that are being used for emergency accommodation. The very fact that areas have suffered deprivation leaves them more open to be expected to carry a burden. In order for a sense of fairness to prevail, when the Department is leading in terms of directly providing accommodation through modular homes or otherwise, we have to ensure there is a balance. In this way, we can truly say this is Irish communities working together to meet our international obligations, not just some communities.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The figures on geographical locations that have come out in the last week underline the fact that there are blank spots. It infuriates people in communities under pressure where there are issues with the health services or school places. Many parents cannot get their child into the local school or even the one in the next village or suburb. People in areas where there is huge housing pressure and sometimes a serious drugs problem and where they have been screaming for services for years become infuriated when they get a lecture from political leaders in more leafy or better-off areas that have taken in nobody. I know it is a challenge but the resistance in the better-off areas will have to be addressed.
The figure of 170,000 is what we are likely to reach by year's end in terms of international protection accommodation services, IPAS, and Ukrainians, with a budget of possibly €1.5 billion. Presently we have 1.8% of the population are classed as international protection and Ukrainians. If we hit those figures, we will have close to 3% of the population of the State in emergency accommodation of one kind or another.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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They can go up or down.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Can the Secretary General repeat that for me?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is the figure for the longer-term international protection?:
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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This is a huge challenge and I acknowledge the work being done in this area. In terms of provision, is there a figure we will hit that instead of having perhaps 200 people without accommodation we will hit a ceiling that we cannot get beyond?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Take the figure of 170,000 which we are working off, is the witness fairly confident that by December we will be able find accommodation for them?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Congregated accommodation?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Will Mr. McCarthy come back to the committee within the next week with the figures regarding the percentages per 1,000 of population regarding other European countries because he can see that this-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Will he give the breakdown both for international protection and the beneficiaries of temporary protection, in other words Ukrainians? Will Mr. McCarthy break that total figure down just for comparison across other EU countries?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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If Mr. McCarthy could come back to the committee with that also, that would be helpful.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That concludes the questions from the Members. We thank the witnesses and the staff of the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, and also the witnesses from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery, and Reform as well as Mr. O'Connor from the OPW. The committee appreciates what the witnesses are doing and recognises that their Departments and officials have been handed a huge task and deserve credit for the work that is being done. I wish to acknowledge that and bring it back to the staff because sometimes they hear all the criticism but I think there are some things we have flagged this morning around the consultation and all of that and they hear what we are saying. If that can be addressed with public representatives we want it to be addressed. I also want to thank Mr. McCarthy, Mr. Crean and their staff from the Comptroller and Auditor General's office for attending and assisting the committee.
Is it agreed that the clerk will seek any follow-up information and carry out any agreed actions from the meeting? Agreed. Is it also agreed that we note and publish any opening statements and briefings that have been provided? Agreed. This meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts is suspended until 1.30 p.m. For those listening in I ask people to be back at 1.30 p.m. as we have a short piece of business in private session before resuming in public session.