Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Members have the option of being physically present in the committee room or joining the meeting via MS Teams from their Leinster House offices. Members may not participate in the meeting from outside the parliamentary precincts. It is important to note that in order to participate, members must be physically present in the committee room. If joining on MS Teams, I ask that Members mute their microphones when not contributing and use the raise hand function to indicate. All present in the committee room are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from Covid.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The meeting has been convened to consider the 2023 Revised Estimate for Vote 30 - Agriculture, Food and the Marine, which was referred by the Dáil on 14 December to the committee. I welcome the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy McConalogue, and his officials. He is accompanied by Mr. Gordon Conroy, assistant secretary general; Mr. Paul McNally, assistant principal officer; and Mr. William Farrell, administrative officer. I call on the Minister to make his opening statement. Does the Minister want to go through it all?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. I think it will outline a good bit of the context.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Okay.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chairman and members for providing time to go through and discuss the Revised Estimates for 2023. The Department’s budget for 2023 was designed to lay the groundwork for strategic supports for the agriculture and fisheries sectors while providing farmers and fishers with supports to deal with the immediate and ongoing fallout of the illegal invasion of the Ukraine and the challenges associated with Brexit. We have designed the budget to strategically address the short-term and long-term challenges and opportunities in the sector. Despite these and other challenges, the sector has displayed remarkable resilience, as demonstrated by the fact that the value of Ireland’s agrifood exports increased by 22% last year to a record high of some €18 billion. The foundation for this incredible performance were farmers, fishers and food producers. The agriculture Vote for 2023 provides the Department with the resources to deal with current challenges and exploit opportunities across the various sectors. In a period of uncertainty and high input costs, I have agreed a budget that protects the income of farmers and fishers and supports them in their efforts to ensure standards are maintained, including, importantly, the meat inspection service and various supports provided by the Department’s laboratories.

Tuberculosis, TB, and brucellosis allocation is more than €51 million. The level of bovine TB in Ireland continues to be relatively low by international standards with progress being made during 2022, but it is against a challenging background. Herd incidence stands provisionally at 4.27% and has decreased in comparison to the previous year’s 4.33%. The number of herds restricted last year was 4,492, compared to 4,675 in 2021. As Minister, I initiated enhanced actions to clear infection from herds experiencing extended breakdowns in 2021. The goal is to eliminate TB infection from such herds, help them go clear as soon as possible and reduce the risk of repeat breakdowns. My Department, in consultation with the TB forum, will continue this year and beyond to implement the policy options outlined in the bovine TB eradication strategy. We are all acutely aware of the financial and emotional pain associated with a TB breakdown. It is important we move quickly and together to reduce rates. Our focus will be on reducing disease year by year.

The increase in subhead A3, incorporating food safety, animal and plant health and animal welfare, can be attributed to the need for the Department to address a number of areas, including the costs associated with any potential outbreak of avian influenza and Brexit adjustment reserve, BAR, funding for potential meat and bone meal disposal projects.

On programme B, which covers farm sector supports and controls, improving the carbon efficiency of suckler cows will play a key role in reducing Ireland’s emissions. The sheep improvement scheme provides valuable support to those undertaking actions which make a positive contribution to flock welfare. The allocation for that scheme is €20 million in 2023 and provides for increased payment from €10 per ewe to €12. A total of under €1 billion is available under programme B. This is in addition to €1.2 billion funding from the EU in respect of direct payment schemes.

There are several key provisions in programme B for this year. In beef and sheep supports, the Estimate provides €105 million in targeted supports for livestock farming, with €85 million, as it stands, to support sustainable beef farming and €52 million towards the suckler carbon efficiency programme that is taking over from the outgoing beef data genomics programme. The funding of €260 million in the lifetime of this programme is a recognition of the importance of the suckler sector to Ireland’s economy and will help improve economic and environmental efficiency of enterprises.

The targeted agriculture modernisation scheme, TAMS, is one of the key drivers of on-farm investment. It continues to be a hugely successful and beneficial scheme that will continue for the year ahead. An indicative allocation of €370 million for TAMS is available from 2022 to 2027, of which €89 million is provided for this year. Investments will be linked to climate, environment or animal welfare. I expect TAMS will open for receipt of applications on a phased basis throughout this month. To assist generational renewal and gender balance, young farmers and, for the first time, women farmers will be provided with grant aid for capital investments at an enhanced grant rate of 60%, providing they meet the eligibility requirements. The proposed increase to 60% grant aid for farm safety equipment will encourage the development of physical safety infrastructure on farms. The Minister of State with responsibility for farm safety, Deputy Heydon, has led strongly on that. I believe this will be critical in helping to drive down the unacceptably high number of fatal and non-fatal incidents on farms in the years ahead.

The agri-climate rural environment scheme, ACRES, is our new environmental scheme. We have provided €160 million of new spend this year. Tranche 1 of the scheme closed in December and my Department is working through and assessing applications before moving to the next stage. The scheme has proven extraordinarily popular with farmers, which is good to see. We received more than 46,000 applications. My objective, if possible, is to be in a position to accept all 46,000 applicants to the current tranche of the scheme, but there are operational considerations for my Department and for co-operation project teams and agricultural advisers. I am considering these. I want to be certain any next steps do not compromise the integrity of the scheme or our ability to make timely payments to applicants accepted into it. The scheme is well designed and offers much choice to interested farmers. Its implementation will be closely monitored. It is important the scheme delivers and is managed properly, both for potential participants and to provide a return on investment of public money. It is important to move as quickly as possible on this and I plan to announce next steps very soon. I intend all ACRES applicants will hear from us before the end of February.

There is considerable growth in organic farming. Currently, 200,000 hectares are farmed organically and there are real opportunities for growth. The budget allocation for 2023 has been increased from €21 million to €36 million. This will facilitate the awarding of organic farming scheme contracts to over 2,000 farmers who have submitted applications to the scheme, which closed for applications in December past. We now have 4% of overall land area farmed organically and I am confident we can achieve and exceed the programme for Government commitment of 7.5% land cover during the lifetime of the CAP Strategic Plan 2023- 2027. The Minister of State, Senator Hackett, is working strongly to ensure we achieve this.

An investment by the Government of €1.3 billion in Irish forestry for the next national forestry programme was announced by me and the Minister of State, Senator Hackett, last November.

This is the largest ever investment by the Government in tree planting. The new programme is farmer focused and aimed at supporting farm families to engage more meaningfully with forestry. As well as receiving record tax-free payments, farmers can avail of 20-year as opposed to 15-year premiums, which were part of the outgoing scheme and will the remain the case for non-farmers. Premiums will be from between 46% to 66%. In addition to receiving 33% more premium payments compared to non-farmers, farmers who plant trees will also continue to receive the single farm payment on land converted to forestry. The forestry programme 2023-2027 is subject to state aid approval from the EU Commission, which we discussed in detail at previous committee engagements. The Department's engagement with the Commission is progressing. We are seeking to ensure that state aid approval happens in the best timeframe possible.

While the new forestry programme has not yet been finalised, the Department has introduced an interim afforestation and roads scheme in order to ensure that those with valid approvals under the old forestry programme can plant and build roads while receiving the new rates of payment proposed under the scheme. There are now 1,000 approved afforestation contracts with 7,000 ha ready for planting. In addition, more than 9.5 million cu. m of felling was licensed, well beyond the National Council for Forest Research and Development, COFORD-estimated demand for timber.

I will touch on the tillage incentive scheme and liming measure. For 2023, I have provided €18 million for the continuation of the tillage incentive scheme and the introduction, for the first time in many years, of a new lime natural soil conditioner scheme meant to incentivise liming. Research carried out by Teagasc shows that liming not only increases soil microbial activity but can also unlock soil phosphorous and potassium, P and K. Our high annual rainfall, along with crop and livestock production and nitrogen fertiliser use, all combine to reduce soil pH.

Programme C deals with policy and strategy. The total allocation for that programme is €440 million.

I willtouch on access to finance, which is a crucial need for 2023. Some €20 million has been allocated to play a key part in the Government’s response to the challenges posed by Brexit. I am working closely with the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Coveney, and the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael McGrath, in that regard. Bank of Ireland was the first to launch a new scheme for loans under that funding recently.

To support our food industry, a provision of €17 million has been made for next year through the Enterprise Ireland capital investment scheme to support the food processing sector.

I will touch on the matter of farm safety. Last year, for the first time, we had a specific farm safety budget of €2 million. That has increased to €2.5 million for this year. The hope is this funding will continue to play a significant role in achieving cultural change around safety on farms.

We know the important role Bord Bia plays in marketing our food abroad, considering 90% of our food is exported. The Bord Bia grant is €55 million in 2023, which is up 4% on the previous year.

With regard to Teagasc and the important role it plays, more than €6 million in additional grant aid is being made available bringing its overall grant to €162 million. That includes €107 million to pay staff salaries and pensions, €44 million to support current operational expenditure, and just over €5 million for the Teagasc capital investment programme.

On programme D, the seafood sector, I have significantly increased the provision for this year's seafood programme by 70% to a total of €337 million. That increased investment reflects the Government’s commitment and follow-through on the Report of the Seafood Task Force: Navigating Change, which outlined 16 support schemes with an estimated cost of €423 million to assist the seafood sector and deal with the impact of Brexit, especially in respect of the inclusion of a temporary and permanent cessation scheme for the fishing sector, capital investment schemes for the seafood processing and aquaculture sector, and liquidity supports for co-operatives and processors. The task force recommended that the initiatives be funded through the 100% EU-funded Brexit adjustment reserve and our forthcoming EU seafood development programme under the European maritime fisheries fund. I have announced 11 schemes to date.

Fishery harbours are being significantly invested in, which is reflected in subhead D.3. We have two flagship projects, namely, the deep-water quay at Ros an Mhíl and the Smooth Point pier extension in Killybegs.

The budget allocation for the Sea Fisheries Protection Authority, SFPA, is €28 million for 2023, which will allow it to continue to meet our national and EU obligations as the competent authority for the enforcement of seafood safety law and sea fisheries control.

That is a brief overview of measures we included in this year's budget. I am satisfied that the 2023 allocation, together with the supports, provides a good, balanced package of measures for farmers, fishers, coastal communities and the food and forestry sector.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Before I open questions to committee members, I will ask about BSE and meat and bone meal disposal. It is 26 or 27 years since we had an outbreak of BSE. Will we have to continue with disposal indefinitely? Will meat and bone meal ever be incorporated back into proper usage, whether it is for fertiliser, heat or energy generation or whatever? Why do we have to fund its disposal after such time has passed?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I do not know the answer to that as regards the time ahead or into the future. The current EU requirements and controls are that we must have disposal for meat and bone meal. Brexit has posed a particular challenge around that, as the Chair knows, because much of the meat and bone meal disposal has gone abroad up to now. That is why €20 million is allocated towards it. We are currently engaging on how we can spend that in a way that would meet that need nationally. A significant job of work is under way that will be expedited and completed this year to make sure we have that capacity. I am happy to get the Chair a further response regarding the long-term necessity and the regulation around it.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Minister to do so. It seems irrational. We had a scare regarding a cow with BSE a number of years ago. There was always an odd case of BSE in the herd. That is just a matter of nature. Since controls were put in place, thankfully, BSE is a thing of the past. It seems illogical that we still have to spend money on the disposal of product. Previously, before the proper heat treatment was in place, we created a problem for the food chain but I cannot see the logic of the current position on disposal continuing indefinitely. Surely, when BSE has been eradicated, meat and bone meal should be used either as fertiliser or for whatever use can be found for it.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I thank the Minister and his officials for attending. I have a couple of questions on the TB budget that was laid out. My understanding is there is not yet an agreement with the farmer organisations regarding the new testing regimes. Will that budget change?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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What was the final part of the Deputy's question?

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Will that budget change? Has the Department decided and that is it?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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That is our current allocation and projection. Obviously, as the year goes on, we manage the budget. Revised Estimates can occur across any budget line as the year goes on. There has been a lot of good engagement between my team, the TB forum and farming organisations on reaching an agreed outcome on how we deal with TB testing in respect of males more than 36 months old and the testing requirement for cows. I am hopeful of a positive outcome and one that will be agreeable to both sides. If it requires any budget adjustment, I will look at it.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I will address the beef and sheep part of it. In light of the sheep sector having had what was probably one of its toughest winters, and it appears that since many hoggets will stay on before they are out of the system spring lamb may not be as attractive, is there a possibility that some extra sectoral budget for sheep will be brought in? There was a scheme previously for the slaughter of cattle. Sheep farmers have gone through a tough time. It is hard to sell even ewes and lambs at present. Will the Minister consider the €12 per ewe? If we look at the reduction in the price of lamb, even compared to this time last year, it has reduced by approximately €24 to €25.

The meal to feed them now costs that €24 or €25. They are getting €2 more; I understand that. Is the Minister looking at doing something for the sheep sector at the moment like he did, in fairness, with the beef exceptional aid measure, BEAM, scheme when beef was in trouble?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I am very much aware of the pressure the sector is under at the moment. It is a changed situation from a few months ago and, indeed, what the situation was last year. The new sheep welfare scheme is kicking off at €12, which is up from €10 previously. As the Deputy said, that is small in the context of the change in price from last year.

I have been engaging closely with regard to getting full assessments from Bord Bia and insight into what is happening in the market. I stand to be corrected, but 40% of world traded sheep meat is in China. That has led to displacement of Australian and New Zealand sheep meat to other parts of the world market and depressed it in recent months.

I am monitoring the situation closely. I am very much aware of it. There is nothing planned at the moment but I am closely assessing the situation.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Is the targeted agricultural modernisation scheme, TAMS, grant rising to €90,000? Is that the limit?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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If a person is putting up a shed, are the solar panels separate? If a young farmer is putting up a shed and drawing 40% or 60% of the €90,000 and then decides to go solar, is that a different thing? Is it included in that €90,000?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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It is included for the first time. It was included in one allocation before-----

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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That is what I wondered.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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-----but we have two separate ceilings now. One of the reasons we feel the uptake was not as strong as it might have been in the outgoing TAMS was the opportunity costs of availing of it where farmers would not then be able to use their ceiling for other on-farm capital investment. There are two separate ceilings now. In theory, farmers will be now be able to avail of TAMS for up to €180,000, that is, up to €90,000 for solar and €90,000 for shed or tanks, for example.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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That is good. On the agri-climate rural environment scheme, ACRES, which the Minister outlined, is there a budget left for the 46,000 or 48,000 people? Am I correct in saying we had 46,000, 48,000 or 50,000 people at one stage in the previous scheme and they are all out of the scheme now? It is not that we are not used to having the guts of at least 50,000 people on the scheme. I welcome that the Minister is laying out money for tranche 2 from what I can see in the documents. Does he have the budget laid out to take in the 46,000 or 48,000 people who are in already?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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What we budgeted for in terms of projections was 30,000 people.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Yes, I know that.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Obviously, what I am trying to achieve now is to take in all 46,000 people. That requires the logistical capacity to be met to make sure it works properly and that everybody can be accommodated and things go the way they should so that it delivers in the way it needs to. It also requires budgetary adjustment.

I have been engaging across government, particularly with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform but also with other Ministers and party leaders. There is a very strong appetite if we can do it. It would require additional budget as well as making sure we have the logistical capacity.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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With regard to the figure of 46,000 people, we used to always be roughly around 50,000, give or take a few thousand, in schemes such as the green low-carbon agri-environment scheme, GLAS, energy efficiency obligation scheme, EEOS, or whatever. Where the Minister was looking for 30,000 or 60,000 more people, will he be allowing 20,000 in the next round? What way will that be done? If farmers are buying into something, will the Minister encourage them by saying the numbers do not matter and we will welcome them all in? Will we still be dealing with the same figures over the €1.5 billion the Minister talked about?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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My objective would be to ensure there are places for those who want to take part. We will move to tranche 2 next year. Obviously, if we do more this year, we have to engage around the budget. To achieve and ensure there is a place for everyone, I have to engage at Government level to secure approval for that. That is something I would seek to do but it would be for down the road.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I presume the Minister agrees we are going to spend damn all money this year on forestry. By the time we get the go ahead, first of all, an application has to be put in. There is a headline figure of €1.3 billion. We have to make an application for state aid, which will not be for another month and then it could take between two and eight months. Let us say it takes four or five months and then people have to go through an application process, and we know what that is like. Where is this budget going to be if it is not being used for this year? I know the Minister is going to say there is a preliminary budget for the people who had been given planting licences before 31 December. Where is that budget?

On a side note, Chairman, I did not see any dashboards coming into us in the new year. The clerk to the committee might check that for us. No dashboard has come into members for the new year. It was a great help to us to be able to look at what was going on the forestry sector.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We have allocated the budget to be able to deliver on our targets. Obviously, we are coming from a low base so we want to make real progress on that this year. A fair amount of the budget is recurring premiums for forestry already in the ground. That is the most significant part of it. We have the new rates now available. Anybody who is planting today can avail of the new rates. There is significant-----

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Provided they have an existing licence.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Provided that an existing licence is there.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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People cannot apply today.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We cannot give a licence today.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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No.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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People can make the preparations and do a lot of the work. We are making sure we use the time to clear in order that there is not any lost work time as such. It does require reorientation with regard to work flow. Anybody with an existing licence can plant, however. It is also fair to say that anybody with an existing licence, and this was a challenge in the second half of last year, was understandably waiting until the new forestry rates were in place before they planted. The challenge last autumn was that people would not plant and be able to avail of a 15-year premium, which was 40% to 66% less than what is available now. Therefore, we are going to try to-----

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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It is not that it is available now. It is just that when we get going, better will be available.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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They are available under the de minimisfor people who are actually planting now.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Yes, but not for a new person who wants to apply. When does the Minister envisage the lime coming and at how much per tonne will it be put out?

Access to finance is very important. My understanding, and the Minister might be able to explain this to me, is that generally these access to finance schemes are for six years. If a farmer wants to buy a bit of land, I believe he or she is not allowed under the scheme. Will anything be done to help them in the sector maybe for a ten-year period or allow it so that farmers could buy a bit of land? Why is it restricted to certain things?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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It has to work within state aid rules and that type of requirement in the first instance. I do not believe it can-----

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Can it be used at the moment?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I am not an expert in the technicality. I do not believe it can apply to that. The key objective is to try to make sure we are promoting investment, making farming more efficient and backing farmers in that regard. That is what the schemes are designed to do. Then there are specific responses to challenges that exist. Obviously, there is a challenge around Ukraine at the moment, and Brexit was a challenge previously. It is a balance between what is allowable under the rules and targeting it at what will deliver the biggest outcome.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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With regard to the budget for Teagasc, I presume the Minister will put an emphasis on making sure plenty of research is done. In fairness to the agency, I believe some of the initial figures it is doing on cows are way less than what the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, has loved shouting about down through the years. Does the Minister make sure that whatever research budgets are required are in place? We need to get up to speed with stuff fairly quickly. Many figures being used as default on our inventory or climate stuff would be coming out of other countries, which is not a help to us.

I will not say I am an expert on fisheries. Could the Minister explain something about the fisherman who took the funding to get out of fishing? I cannot fathom one of the things that was in it. They basically had to cut up or destruct the boat. Why would that be? Surely, be it South Africa or somewhere, it would be better that someone, somewhere is paddling it rather than just cutting up a good boat. Why is that clause in the scheme?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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What was the point before the fisheries one?

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Teagasc.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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On research, they are driving investment into that and doing a lot of good research on beginning to measure soil carbon capture and on food or feed additives, etc.

On the decommissioning scheme, I understand the Deputy’s point; it was my initial reaction as well. In the past when decommissioning schemes have been launched and there was not a requirement to decommission the boat, in many cases, boats were not decommissioned and became problems in years after. In many cases, they clogged up harbours and were left there, which led to a cost to the State to have to come in and deal with them down the line. I believe that was part of the rationale behind having to decommission the boat.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I wish to raise one last point. This is a bit away from this but it is ferociously important to it. Is it correct that at Cabinet yesterday, part 1 of the land use, land-use change and forestry, LULUCF, review was brought in to Cabinet? When will we get our eyes on what is in that?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I expect the first part of the land use review to be published pretty soon – in the next couple of weeks.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Was it brought to Cabinet yesterday?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We discussed it at Cabinet yesterday. It should be published in the next couple of weeks and it will be moving to part 2.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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It is good to have the Minister back in. I thank him, as always, for his ongoing work in the sector. He is doing a lot of significant work. I wish to discuss a couple of points with him, some of which have been covered by my esteemed colleague and neighbour here beside me. I will try to plough the same ground again.

The agri-climate rural environment scheme, ACRES, scheme has generated a huge response, which is great to see, with more than 46,000 applicants. Unfortunately, many farmers in my area are marginal farmers and they have been enthusiastic supporters of every environmental scheme that has been introduced to date. A large number who have contacted me will not qualify for either tier 1 or tier 2 and are, therefore, staring at the possibility of being excluded from ACRES. Most of them operate marginal holdings at a time input costs are spiralling. These are all factors beyond their control. Most of them are also dependent on an off-farm income. Those small farmers are hugely important both to the local economy but, more importantly, to the local ecology. I know the Minister has not been able to give us a definitive answer. Is there any way or means to accommodate those farmers, particularly ones who are exiting existing environmental schemes in order that they will not experience a fall-off in income and supports that will most likely force them to make a draconian decision and exit the sector?

The Minister can answer this and then I have one more question.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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My objective, if at all possible, is to include all 46,000 and they have shown the appetite to do it. It is a scheme that will deliver significantly for the environment and biodiversity and also contribute to climate emission reductions. We are assessing our capacity, the infrastructure to be able to deliver it efficiently and also then engaging around budget. If it can achieve it so that all 46,000 are in, there are not any other challenges around payment or gap years for them. If it not possible to do it, I will then assess issues relating to gap years, etc. At the moment, all effort is going to, and the objective is, try to include all 46,000 if at all possible.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Is that a reasonably enthusiastic response?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I echo Deputy Fitzmaurice's comments on the sheep sector. I attended a meeting with sheep farmers in Longford last night. They are worried about their situation. It is arguably our most challenged sector at the moment. Many sectors in farming are quite buoyant at the moment. It goes without saying that the Government has provided significant supports for both the pig and horticulture sectors. The Minister is to be applauded and commended for that. They were worthwhile and timely interventions in both cases by the Minister. I appreciate sheep farmers can access the fodder scheme but we also have to acknowledge that their operational costs have increased by 40% in the past year. Teagasc is estimating a further 10% increase in feed costs for that sector again this year. It is a stark scenario. Typically, returns on a lamb at the moment are as little as €7. In an average holding, €75 is a small return in that type of situation. It is unsustainable for many of these sheep farmers, particularly in Longford where many sheep farmers operate on a store basis. They were buying a lot of stores and looking at a bleak scenario for the next couple of months. I know the Minister is aware that the Irish Farmers' Association, IFA, in particular, is looking for a €30 per animal support intervention from him. Can he give us any comfort or indication that is something he is taking seriously on board at the moment?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I know the challenge the sheep sector is facing and how tight it has become in the past number of months. The situation has changed significantly for them. As I said in reply to Deputy Fitzmaurice, I am monitoring it closely. I am engaging closely with Bord Bia on what is happening in the market and what we can do. I am looking at the situation closely. There is not anything in the pipeline as things stand but I take on board the Deputy’s feedback and the feedback I am getting from many other Oireachtas Members. I am assessing the situation closely.

On sheep farmers, the fodder scheme, which I introduced last year, delivered up to €1,000 per farm family and under which I made a forward payment on at the end of last December, was important for them. The Deputy raised the issue on ACRES. The vast majority of sheep farmers have applied for that. If we can accommodate all 46,000 of those and deliver a payment under the scheme to those farmers and sheep farmers this year, many of whom will be able to get up to the €7,000 and have built a payment around that, it would be significant and important as well. Those are two key issues for them. I take on board the point the Deputy made on the market situation and the feedback he gave me on the pressure there.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Just to conclude, I acknowledge the Minister said there is nothing in the pipeline at the moment. However, for many farmers, it is an ominous situation and a short pipeline. I impress upon the Minister and his officials to look at the situation. I know he is monitoring this through Bord Bia, Teagasc and many market sectors as well. However, many farmers to whom I have spoken to over the past 24 hours are in a precarious situation with an uncertain future. There are many hard decisions to be made in the coming weeks unless there is a clear indication from the Department that support is in the offing for the sector.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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To follow on to questions that have been asked, on the forestry programme, when is the application likely to be formally submitted? Has it been submitted yet?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I am not sure whether it has. As of now, I know the team was working to finalise issues in formal engagement with the Commission. It could not be done before 1 January because the state aid guidelines were only published then. Following on from them being published, there has been informal engagement between my Department and the Commission to try to make sure that when the application goes in, we will get as quick an answer as possible. If it has not gone in, it should be done shortly and as quickly as it can be.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Minister saying it will be this week?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I do not have the updated position as of this morning, except that they are engaging closely. As soon as we believe we have it in a position where it can get the best and quickest answer possible, we will submit it.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What is the quickest answer? What is the timeframe the Commission-----

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Our objective is once we submit it, we get the approval back as quickly as we can. If it takes a little bit more time to prepare the application to shorten the time it takes to get an answer, that is what we will do and the approach we will take.

My question then is what indication we got from the Commission of the timeframe for the application considering we are frontloading all of the effort , to use that familiar term, before we submit the application. Do we have assurances that it will be worth it?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I do not think the Commission will be in a position to say for definite and to tie its own hands. All we can do is make sure that in terms of engaging with it in advance, as many of the likely questions and likely queries are dealt with in the application itself to shorten and toing and froing that happens once the application is made. The objective is, whether before it is submitted or after, to shorten the overall timeframe and response time as much as possible.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Do we have an indication of the overall timeframe? When would we expect an application to be approved?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The formal timeframe is two to eight months, if I recall. Whenever we submitted a previous application it took four months to get it. Best efforts will certainly be made on everyone's part to deal expeditiously with applications. At the moment and since 1 January that has been in relation to preparing as strong an application as possible.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am still no clearer because the problem is the Minister mentioned the application could not be submitted before 1 January, it is 8 February now and if we are waiting at the latter stage of even the previous application, which was four months, we are into the summer before a single new application can be formally submitted for the scheme.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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As I said-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I would accept, by the way, if we were to wait until the middle of February and we were sure that meant we would receive approval within the two months I would consider that to be time well spent. However, if we were to wait two months and then put in an application that was closer to the four months, I would consider that to be the same as someone cutting the top off a blanket to tie it to the bottom because their toes were cold. They are actually no better off.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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It is fair to say it is time well spent in terms of getting the application to be as comprehensive as it possibly can be before we submit it. In terms of several briefings we have given on this so far, we would love to be able to give a definitive date and we would if it was possible but we have to work with the application process and respect the prerogative of those who we applied to, to go through the process. We are fully on top of the engagement and work required. Everything that can be done is being done to make sure we get as quick an answer as possible. All I can do at this stage is to outline the potential possible timeframes and outline that we will do all we can to achieve the near end of that timeframe. We will make sure that in terms of how we manage our workflow that of existing applications such as the de minimusscheme, people that are planting now are getting the new rates, and will have the full benefit of that. All of the licensing work that is possible are going into that so that we are continuing to clear the decks and that we have the capacity to deal with and manage and prioritise afforestation licences once it is possible to accept them and make decisions on them.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Regarding deliberations within the Commission, we had a long discussion on state aid the last time the Minister was at the committee. Has he sought or received clarification in respect of how the new state aid rules will affect Coillte's ability to draw down grants?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We continue to assess the situation and to engage with Coillte about possibilities as to how it can work with farmers into the future and also how we can work together as a State. We will then engage with the Commission around state aid queries as to what is possible.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Just to be clear, my question was in terms of Coillte drawing down the funding. Can the Minister talk about that?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I am including that.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Has the question actually been asked of the Commission as of yet?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We are currently engaging with Coillte about the methods that we might step out. We will then seek clarification from the Commission in relation to the capacity for such approaches to be accommodated through state aid.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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My understanding was, from what Coillte told this committee, the reason it could not enter into direct afforestation programmes was because state aid rules-----

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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That is true.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----precluded it from doing so. Who are we seeking clarification from in respect of the new state aid rules as to whether or not Coillte can avail? Do I take it from the fact the Minister is discussing these issues with Coillte before asking the Commission that it is the Department's view that Coillte can actually draw these down?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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In terms of Coillte being able to directly benefit from premiums, that was the situation that was clarified in 2004, I believe. We have been clear regarding the fact that in terms of how Coillte is supported going forward to do afforestation we want that to be working directly with the State and with farmers. We are exploring ways that can happen with Coillte and we will also engage as appropriate with the Commission around state aid clarifications on that and the potential of flexibility there. I do not have the up-to-date position as of this week regarding any recent engagement with the Commission but we have been clear that the way we will go about this is seeking that clarification and our objective being the State working closely with Coillte.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am sorry for being persistent on this. The question that must be asked and answered is whether or not Coillte can directly draw down grants and premiums that it was previously precluded from doing so as a result of the state aid rules? The state aid rules changed on 1 January after a very lengthy consultation process. Has anybody asked for independent advice or have we asked the Commission directly whether or not the new state aid rules allow Coillte to draw down funds directly?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We will be engaging with the Commission to seek clarification. I do not have the up-to-date position as of this week as regards any engagement we have had over the last week or two but we have been very clear about the way we want to go forward and the clarifications we will seek.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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What we want to do is for any afforestation that Coillte is doing that it is done alongside the State. We are exploring that with Coillte and will explore that with it further. We will also explore it with the Commission and we have also been very clear the approach taken with Gresham House is not the preferred way we want to go forward.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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On that note we had a lengthy conversation around the shareholder letter of expectation in June and what that might have meant or how Coillte might have interpreted that with regard to Gresham House. Has the Minister or his colleague, the Minister of State, Senator Hackett, commenced the process of reissuing a new shareholder letter of expectation to make it clear to Coillte that the option he says is not his preferred option is actually precluded to Coillte in the future in terms of engaging further?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We are working very closely with Coillte at the moment in relation to how we take options forward. We are now engaging on an ongoing basis with Coillte.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is it the Minister's view that another shareholder letter of expectation will issue?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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It is my view that we will continue. There are many ways in which we can engage and we are engaging closely with Coillte at the moment and will step that out. The shareholder letter as we go forward will then reflect the pathway we want to take. We are engaging very closely with it.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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At this point the official guidance Coillte has as to how it conducts its work is based on the three letters of expectation it has received to date, including the one in June 2022.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I think it is fair to say there has been a lot of engagement between my Department and Coillte, and there will continue to be. We are very connected in that regard-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I know but the Minister is still not answering the question.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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-----in terms of how we step it forward.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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We will see Coillte on 1 March.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I know but Coillte will tell us it is operating within the shareholder letter of expectation. Finally on forestry, does the target afforestation rate for 2023 still stand at 8,000 ha?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister believe it will be reached?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We will do everything possible to reach it. We have phenomenal new premiums in place as of last month.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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However new applications cannot be submitted for them at this point.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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As I outlined to Deputies Flaherty and Fitzmaurice, there was a lag in planting in the second half of last year because people were waiting for the new premiums to come in. Those new premiums are now in. I expect that to be a step change in the context of afforestation and a kick-starter in increasing the rates. There are more than 7,000 ha of licences issued and in the system. The conversion rate normally is approximately 60% of licences to planting.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is 60% in any given year, however. Those 7,000 ha, some of which go back several years-----

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Some of it goes back but my point is that people were awaiting the new afforestation rates. Those rates are now in place. Only time will tell, but I expect there would have been a lower conversion rate last year because people were waiting on the new premiums to come in and there is every possibility there will be a higher conversion rate of licences to plantations once the new rates are in place. We are now very much on the front foot in terms of communicating to farmers that the new rates are there and we want people to afforest. In addition, we are working to get the new state aid approval in place for new licences to be processed.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How many of the 7,000 ha licensed were planted in January?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I do not have that figure with me. I do not have the update here.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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If we had a dashboard, would we be able to find out ourselves-----

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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It is in excess of 1,000 ha. I will come back to the Deputy directly with the data we have on that.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Is the dashboard coming?

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Perhaps the Minister will follow up on that issue as well. The weekly dashboards were incredibly useful. There were a number of broad policy issues I intended to address but I will confine-----

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I am told that 1,000 ha were planted in January.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is of the 7,000 ha.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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That is correct. We will communicate directly about it-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That was new planting.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. On the basis of our previous conversations, I take it that it was all private and none of it was Coillte.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We will communicate on that. It is a significant step change. At the end of last year, everything planted was on the old rates. There are now new rates in place that are up to 66% higher than the previous rates. I expect there to be a spurt on the back of the new rates being in place. Our whole messaging to farmers-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In fairness, it says a lot that so many members of the committee are aghast that the figure might not be true. That is precisely what we need to be planting in January. In fact, we need to be planting double that in January if we want to reach 8,000 ha per year.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We should be. Our message to farmers with a licence is that the rates are now 66% higher for many of those than they were just two months ago and everybody who plants this month or planted last month will now get those premiums tax free for 20 years rather than for 15 years as would have been the case if they planted last year. My clear message to everyone who is sitting on a licence is that it makes absolute sense to engage with one's forester and get planting. We have the systems in place for them to do so and we want them to do it.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I will move to financial questions, as I am sure the Chair is glad to hear. As regards the sheep welfare scheme, notwithstanding the fact I agree with other members that we need to go much further than the €12 increase, that €12 represents a 20% increase but the allocation has only been increased by 11%. Is that because it was undersubscribed for last year or is it expected that the number participating will reduce? This relates to subhead B8.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I will get a note on that. The rate is €12. There have been 19,100 applications. As regards the rates, we budgeted on the basis that it will be €12 for sheep. We will have no limit in this regard. Anyone who applies will be accommodated. If we need to readjust the budgets slightly to make sure we accommodate all applicants, we will do that. As of now, 19,100 have applied.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The figure for the previous year is 17,700.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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That is correct.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Assuming people will keep the same number of sheep or increase their number, the allocation will need to be revised.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I will be making sure everybody is covered.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Does the Minister have plans to review the payment rates and budget allocation for the areas of natural constraint, ANC, scheme? As he is aware, it is one of the more important and popular schemes among farmers, particularly in areas such as his county or mine. Essentially, however, it is reducing every year because inflation is eating into it. It has been the same, broadly speaking, for several years.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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This is an issue I discussed at many of our Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, consultation meetings around the country. We have programmed in the areas of natural constraint scheme for each year of the CAP up to 2027 at €250 million, which is maintaining it at its previous level. That comes as part of an overall increase of 50% in our national co-funding of Pillar 2. Obviously, we had to make choices in respect of what we were going to increase. Overall, we are delivering 50% more national funding to it. That is why we are able to increase significantly the agri-climate rural environment scheme, ACRES, payments, organics and the beef suckler scheme within CAP. As part of those balances, however, the ANC payment is maintained at €250 million.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I do not have time to rehash the issue of Pillar 2 payments and the increase in co-financing. In overall terms, farmers will be looking at the payments that are most valuable and important to them, and the ANC is one such payment. It has remained static for the past four years. There was previously a domestic decision to increase the budget allocation to it but, under the Minister's vision, it will remain static until 2027. In real terms, that will be a substantial reduction.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Even when an unprecedented increase of 50% in national co-funding for Pillar 2 is being delivered, choices still have to be made in respect of where that is allocated. We have significant increases in ACRES as well as other environmental schemes, beef, organics and so on but, as part of that, we are maintaining ANC. Overall, all of that funding is making its way to farmers. That 50% increase in national co-funding will end up in farmers' pockets.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We are talking about farmers here. They are not cods in the context of the budget-----

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Certainly not.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----but the Minister is treating them as cods.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Certainly not, Deputy.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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He is trying to suggest there is a 50% increase in funding for Pillar 2 payments. That is not the case. I asked him specifically about ANC.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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That is so, and I was-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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He stated there will be no increase under his vision. I accepted that answer. He then tried to-----

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I told the Deputy the whole story.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----disseminate what is actually untrue information in respect of-----

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I gave the Deputy the full picture.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----Pillar 2 schemes but I asked him a specific question in respect of ANCs. He would be better off, and people would have much more respect for him as Minister, if he were to clarify the question that was asked rather than try to diverge in a way that is not correct.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I have done so and I have given the full picture in terms of the context in which that payment is being maintained. Other schemes are being significantly increased and, ultimately, all that funding will be going to farmers.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister should ask farmers in his constituency if they are better off. I can tell him what the answer would be.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I have asked farmers in every county, Deputy.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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As regards TB, there is a decrease of 11% in the allocation of funding. Given that the numbers are remaining static, how is the decrease justified?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The programme is being maintained. We will move other funding into it if it is being maintained. The 11% is-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is subhead A4. I am reading here it is-----

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Just give me the-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is subhead A4.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We had increased payments last year for higher than expected costs in operating the scheme last year, including payments to veterinary professionals for testing. We will monitor expenditure during 2023 and adjust as necessary for any additional funding needed to maintain the programme.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Will there any EU funding for the scheme in 2023?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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There will be. It has reduced. I am not sure if we have the figure. It has been reducing over the last two or three years. Our TB rates for two or three years were increasing. We have been making progress again and the TB forum has done really good work here. Overall, our EU allocation has reduced. I will see if I can get the exact figure for how much. We are still getting EU funding but it has reduced compared with previous years.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister has said the TB figures have improved. Did the figures for January 2023 not show an increase on the same month last year?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Our overall herd incidence rates are marginally down and the figures are starting to move in the right direction after two or three years of going in the wrong direction.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I will double-check that.

I seek clarification on some figures. In administration, the training and development and incidental expenses, there is an increase of 47%.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Which line?

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is line (III) in administration.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Training and development and incidental expenses.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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It went from €6.7 million last year to €9.9 million this year. In 2023, we will see the return or replacement of up to seven attachés along with increases in local hire supports. Mr. McNally might wish to add to that.

Mr. Paul McNally:

That administrative subhead is a mishmash of different expenses. As the Minister said, we have a few attachés returning this year and there will be costs associated with that. Obviously, attachés will be going out to replace them. The entire increase is not attributable to the attachés; there would be different increases. There is the training and development of new staff coming into the Department. The training budget has gone up. There would be different expenses covered there, including advertising costs. For one or two of the HR systems, there would be increased service level costs associated with the IT systems in there.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Can we get a note on the breakdown on that? It is a significant percentage increase. I laughed to myself when I saw that the cost of value-for-money reviews increased by 120%. It includes consultancy and policy reviews as well. Is there any reason for that? That is line (VII) in administration.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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It related to possible consultancy dealing with the Food Vision implementation and also mink farming.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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When will the mink farms close?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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They are finished. It is all done and dusted.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Since when?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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It is since the end of last year.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Was that December?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Do the farms affected have any outstanding claims or have they all been resolved?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We will be working through the compensation process with the three farmers concerned, but all mink have now been removed from the farms.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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My final question is on supplementary measures for EU, which is line (VIII) under administration. There has been an increase of a few hundred thousand euro there. What does that relate to?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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It was an increase in the cost of the new certifying body for the rural development programme and increased costs associated with the CAP strategic plan.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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There is a very substantial increase in inspection fees at meat plants. What is the reason?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Is this under appropriations-in-aid?

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Under subhead E3, receipts from inspection fees at meat plants, appropriations-in-aid have increased by 45%.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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There is actually an administrative error in that, which we will be correcting. There is €8 million included in that which is incorrect. That is actually staying the same.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Well spotted.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister and his officials for coming. Following up on what Deputy Carthy asked about consultancy and value for money, I ask for more details on the increase in expenditure. What reviews are planned for the coming year given that it has increased by 120%.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I do not think we have that detail today, but we can come back to the Deputy with the detail in writing.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Most of the questions I was going to ask have been answered. Under key outputs and public service activities, it states that the 2021 outturns for the number of on-farm controls and inspections for animal health and welfare to be carried out and the number of animal transport controls and inspections for animal health and welfare to be carried out are not yet available. We are nearly at the end of the first quarter of 2023. Why is the 2021 outturn not available at this stage?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Which subhead is this?

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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It is under the subhead A3, key outputs and public service activities.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I am not sure. It is a fair question. I will get the Deputy a written response on that.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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We do not have figures for 2021.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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It is a fair point.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Under subhead E3, there is a 45% increase for receipt for inspection fees at the meat plants. Can the Department confirm-----

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, Deputy Browne, the Minister said that was a mistake.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Sorry, I missed that.

Under subhead E12, there is a 91% decrease in the veterinary fund. I ask for more detail on that.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I can get the Deputy detail on that.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Everything else has been answered.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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On behalf of the select committee, I thank the Minister and his officials for assisting the committee in its consideration of the 2023 Revised Estimates and for dealing so comprehensively with the members' questions.