Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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The committee will consider the Revised Estimates for Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth; and Vote 25 - Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, as referred by the Dáil. Only matters relevant to the Estimates can be discussed.

On behalf of the select committee, I welcome the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Deputy O'Gorman, and his officials, and thank them for the comprehensive briefing material provided. This material has been circulated to members in advance of the meeting. The following officials are here with the Minister: Mr. Andrew Patterson, principal officer; Dr. Anne-Marie Brooks, assistant secretary; Mr. Dermot Ryan, assistant secretary, Mr. Gordon Gaffney, principal officer; Ms Laura McGarrigle, assistant secretary; Ms Orla Tunney, principal officer; and Ms Patricia Ballantine, assistant principal.

The proposed format of the meeting is to invite the Minister to deliver an opening statement. Following this we will open it up to questions from the committee. Everyone is allocated ten minutes for their questions, including answers from the Minister.

On parliamentary privilege, I advise attendees of the following. They are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. They are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure it is not abused. If an attendee's statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I welcome the opportunity to discuss the Revised Estimates for my Department for 2023, including that of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission. As members will have seen from the briefing material provided last week, my Department is projected to spend €3.173 billion on current expenditure and €103 million on capital expenditure during 2023. This represents an increase of €463 million or 16% over the 2022 Supplementary Estimate.

This allocation provides for a range of key services to children and young people, including those delivered by Tusla, and across the early years and youth services sectors. It provides for major resources to other key programmes, including the provision of accommodation and other supports for international protection applicants and Ukrainian beneficiaries of temporary protection, as well as other refugees under the refugee resettlement programme. The allocation allows us to continue to address the major legacy issues relating to mother and baby institutions and birth information and tracing services. In addition, there are allocations across the areas of equality, integration and inclusion. This includes funding towards gender equality, human rights, LGBTI+ issues, Traveller and Roma issues, migrant integration and disability policy. To outline my Department’s Vote in more detail, I have provided the select committee with details of the funding allocations across the different programme areas, along with a summary by subhead, including details of changes over the 2022 figures, as allocated following the Supplementary Estimate last year. In terms of the Vote allocation in 2023, 91% of the Department’s funding is concentrated in four areas of the Vote, namely, early learning and childcare, 31%; Child and Family Agency - Tusla, 28%; Ukraine-related spending, 20%; and international protection accommodation services, 12%. Youth affairs and administration each account for 2% of the overall allocation. The balance of 5% is spread across the remaining programmes and subheads in the Vote. I will now briefly address the various areas in turn.

The early learning and care allocation of €1.025 billion represents an increase of €319 million or 45% on the 2022 Supplementary Estimate allocation for subheads B3, B4 and B5. During 2023, I intend to continue to reform the early learning and childcare system to bring together the best of community and private provision, focus on children’s rights and quality outcomes, reduce inequalities and, critically, substantially reduce costs to parents.

In this regard, 2022 saw the introduction of the core funding scheme. This commenced with the start of the September 2022 to August 2023 programme year, and will continue into the next programme year from September this year. I am pleased to inform colleagues that I have secured additional funding to cover the costs of increased levels of capacity and numbers of graduates in year one and for a number of enhancements in year two of the scheme. I am also pleased to be in a position to enhance the national childcare scheme, NCS, by offering supports to a greatly expanded cohort of children and families at significantly higher subsidy levels. Effective since January, the minimum subsidies have increased from 50 cent per hour to €1.40 per hour.

My Department continues to meet the cost of the two-year early childhood care and education, ECCE, programme and the associated access and inclusion model, AIM, which supports children with additional needs who access the ECCE programme. The funding for this area will also enable the delivery of a range of regulatory and quality supports for the implementation of the national action plan for childminding, Nurturing Skills, the workforce plan and the ongoing development of the registration and inspection system, as well as policy development commitments set out in the First 5 strategy and the programme for Government.

My Department’s Estimate contains provision of €917 million for Tusla, which is broadly in line with the 2022 supplementary allocation and represents an increase of €50 million on the original 2022 Revised Estimate, exclusive of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence, DSGBV, funding. It is important to note that funding under Tusla subhead A3 has been split between A3 and A7 for 2023, with funding for DSGBV services, which had previously been shown under A3, now shown under A7. The funding will allow Tusla to respond to a number of challenges, such as addressing increasing demand for its services, and to roll out strategies to improve residential and foster care in Ireland. The budget will allow Tusla to continue its expenditure on its capital programmes, further develop its ICT infrastructure and initiate priority projects, including its estates strategy. It will also allow that agency to support the community and voluntary sector, which delivers services on its behalf. It will maintain support for DSGBV services and address recommendations arising from Tusla’s accommodation review of refuge provision.

In early 2022, following the invasion of Ukraine by Russia, our Department was tasked by Government with providing short-term accommodation and other supports for Ukrainians fleeing the conflict and in receipt of temporary protection. A new subhead was added in 2022 as part of the Supplementary Estimate to cover Ukraine-related expenditure which was new to the Vote. An allocation of €641 million, which is 20% of the Vote, is provided in 2023 to meet the costs associated with the provision of accommodation for beneficiaries of temporary protection orders arriving from Ukraine. The allocation represents an increase of €48 million or 8% on the 2022 Supplementary Estimate allocation.

The largest cost element is in relation to accommodation through commercial sources in large part, but also through pledged accommodation and other sources. Funding has also been provided for the cost of modular housing and for expenditure in relation to early learning and care, Tusla and youth affairs supports and services.

The allocation for costs associated with the provision of accommodation for international protection seekers has seen an increase of €33 million to €395 million in 2023. The funding will allow for the continuing provision of accommodation to those seeking international protection. The allocation also includes funding towards implementing the recommendations of the White Paper to end direct provision and to establish a new international protection support service. International protection accommodation is demand-led with requirements for accommodation and services increasing as numbers of new international protection applications increase. Since the latter half of 2021, there has been a sharp increase in the number of new arrivals seeking international protection accommodation in Ireland. Indeed, in 2022, there has been a record increase in the number of new arrivals seeking such accommodation, with just over 15,000 new arrivals.

Deputies will be aware of the current acute pressures on our accommodation system, which will be exacerbated in 2023 in the context of a potential sustained demand for international protection. I am working closely with colleagues across Government in seeking to address the pressures of this on an already stretched system. This year will again be very challenging for the Department in meeting both international protection and Ukrainian accommodation requirements.Depending on a range of potential variables, I expect that the funding provision for these areas will come under pressure in the course of the year and I will be keeping the Government regularly informed as we monitor cost pressures on this front. As well as providing for increased immediate accommodation demand, I am continuing the purchase of accommodation in the community with a focus on larger properties for international protection applicants in order to progressively increase the provision of State-owned accommodation.

There is a new subhead included under Vote 40 in 2023. In responding to the final report of the commission of investigation into mother and baby and county home institutions, the Government approved a suite of 22 specific measures. Action 20, the mother and baby institutions payment scheme, is a key element of the Government’s response to the findings of the commission. This is a demand-led statutory scheme that is anticipated to provide financial payment to 34,000 survivors and former residents, of whom approximately 19,000 will also receive an enhanced medical card.

Of the €800 million allocation agreed by the Government for the scheme, funding of €10 million is being made available in 2023. This allocation has been provided to meet the initial costs of establishing all aspects of the executive office to administer the scheme, including staffing, IT infrastructure, training, national and international information and awareness-raising campaigns, outreach and engagement, and business processes. Over and above this allocation, further funding will be provided on the opening of the scheme, in order to meet the costs of financial payments and medical cards for survivors and former residents. This additional funding will be provided by way of Supplementary Estimate.

On the rest of the Vote, there are of course other important policy areas that will be progressed in 2023. The 2023 Estimate will allow me to continue to provide funding in the important areas of equality, disability, inclusion and integration. These are very important priority areas and the Vote contains funding for areas such as the National Disability Authority, refugee and migrant integration, gender equality, and LGBTI+, Traveller and Roma initiatives. As I mentioned, each of these areas are in receipt of additional funding in 2023 compared with the final 2023 allocation following the Supplementary Estimate in 2022.

The 2023 Estimate has seen an increase of €2.8 million for youth services to €76 million. This level of funding will support the delivery by the voluntary youth work sector of a range of youth funding programmes and services for all young people, including those from disadvantaged communities, as they re-establish following the period of Covid-19 restrictions. These investments are particularly essential in supporting our most marginalised and vulnerable young people.

I am pleased to advise the committee that the significant increase in resources under my Department’s Vote for 2023 allows for the continuation, targeted improvement and growth of the extensive and wide range of vital services and supports provided by my Department to people and communities throughout the country, including our most vulnerable, marginalised and disadvantaged. Deputies may be assured that I will continue to work closely with all sectors and stakeholders, as we strive to maximise outcomes from the resources being considered today. I thank the Chair and members. I look forward to responding to their questions.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister. I will go through our speaking rota. Deputy Costello is first, followed by Deputies Ward, Murnane O'Connor and Cairns.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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I thank the Chair. I did not realise I was first. I thought I had more time to prepare. It is the nature of the job to keep me on my toes. I thank the Minister. I will raise a couple of points.

The first issue is related to the Estimates, which I will get to. However, I will raise concerns regarding many groups in society that essentially want to tear apart the fabric of society and are now actively organising. These are anti-democratic and racist groups, and even individuals, that are travelling around the country stirring things up and trying to tear apart the fabric of society. They offer nothing but fear and hatred, and are trying turn people against each other based on the colour of their skin or where they came from. We need to respond to that. Many of the responses will be through the Joint Committee on Justice or another committee. One of the things we need to do when faced with people who are tearing apart the fabric of society is to knit things together quicker than these groups are tearing it apart.

I am glad to see that an equal and inclusive society is a priority area. What money is being made available to the many local community and genuine groups that are saying they are open for all, such as Drimnagh For All, the similar Ballyfermot group, and East Wall Here For All? All these groups are coming together to try to build a more equal and inclusive society and are trying to hold us all together. This is also the responsibility of many other Ministers, and I will raise this issue with them as well. It is essential we get this right, especially at this crisis point when there are people who are actively trying to undermine our democracy.

I will also make a point regarding Tusla. One of the matters the committee regularly talks about is retention of staff, the retention and recruitment of social workers, and that there just are not enough of them. Is there a way we can use the Estimates to try to incentivise social workers to stay in Tusla? Other agencies have more generous arrangements around superannuation and pensions. Time spent in Tusla might be more valuable to a social worker than time spent somewhere else. I do not see anything in the Revised Estimates relating to trying to push for retention and all those fundamental issues we talk about, including access and supports. I notice from the indicators that referrals to Tusla have been going up over the years but the number of children in care is going down, which is a curious anomaly that might take another committee meeting to explore in its own right.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I thank the Deputy. I agree and share, as I am sure all Deputies do, his concern regarding the rhetoric we have seen in recent weeks and months. It comes from a small group in society but one that is vocal and uses online techniques to organise and perhaps amplify its voice more than may be representative. It is, however, a voice that is also dangerous and makes threats to elected representatives, as the Deputy knows well, at this stage.

My Department's response to the broad issue of anti-racism will be spearheaded through the national action plan against racism. This will be launched in March of this year. It is a piece of work that has been under way and developed by the anti-racism committee that has been working on this for the past two years and that held a comprehensive national consultation. There will be a number of immediate acts and more will take place over the subsequent four years. I will chair a committee that will monitor implementation across the Government. There will be a funding package behind the plan. Of the €6.8 million allocated under subhead D4, €1.7 million will be explicitly behind the national action plan against racism. There will be a funding call looking to support initiatives. We will probably do what we have done with other funds. We will allocate larger amounts of money for national or regional activities but we will also consider small amounts for very localised initiatives. A second fund provided for under D4 is the migrant integration fund of approximately €2.36 million. Again, that supports a number of migrant integration initiatives at present at both a high and low level. It is very important that, for example, €1,000 is allocated to hold a picnic with children in the local international protection accommodation. It is just once-off funding but is very valuable in creating those immediate links.

I am very conscious of the wider work my Department is doing in the sphere of international protection right now and the importance of building in stronger community local links. I am working with the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, Deputy Donohoe, at present to bring forward a small fund that might enable us to immediately support groups such as Drimnagh For All in what they are doing. We hold annual funding calls but if international protection is setting up in two weeks' time, my saying we will have a call-out in nine months' time or next year is no immediate good to anybody. We want something that will act as a bridge to work in the short term. We are also looking at how we can better mobilise communities and better engage with community support. We have Ukraine forums throughout the country, which are valuable and have worked very well in many local authorities. There are wider issues, including the legislation on hate crimes before the Houses at present, in addition to the Online Safety and Media Regulation Act, although that probably falls outside our area. It is important to note this legislation, however, because, as the Deputy said, there needs to be an all-of-government approach.

We discussed Tusla recruitment and retention the very first time I appeared before the committee. Recruitment and retention of social workers remains a very big challenge for Tusla. We are seeing this year that its overall numbers are holding still. We need to grow the numbers because we are aware, as are Deputies, that the number of unallocated cases still remains too high. There is a real focus in Tusla right now on addressing that but the number of unallocated cases still remains too high. Getting more social workers into the organisation is key as is, as the Deputy noted, retaining the ones who are there at present. Staff turnover increased in 2022. There is a turnover of approximately 16%, which is a figure we are looking to bring down.

In July 2022, I launched Tusla's people strategy, which is designed to bring new people into the organisation and, in particular, to retain the good staff they have. A whole range of initiatives have been rolled out by Tusla in the past year aimed at supporting and retaining staff. I attended an event in Farmleigh House to recognise excellence across the various parts of the organisation, which was really good. It showed the many innovative things the organisation is supporting at a local level.

The campaign targeting new graduates has been rolled out in the past two years to try to enhance the number of social workers in the organisation. It offers new graduates an immediate role in the organisation. It is a good campaign but it needs to be supplemented with other measures. A number of other things have happened. The position of social worker has been put on the critical skills list so that social workers can be recruited from overseas. That is an important step to allow social workers from other countries to seek to join us here. There is a strong focus on that issue in the organisation but no one underestimates the challenges, and the fact we have stood still this year in overall numbers shows the scale of that challenge.

Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister and officials for attending the committee today. I have questions about a couple of issues. One is the mother and baby homes payment scheme and the second is the Decision Support Service, DSS. I will ask about them separately.

The State's response to the legacy issues in the mother and baby homes in this year's Estimates is to make €10 million available to set up the mother and baby institutions payment scheme. It looks likely the Bill will pass Report Stage. Shockingly, it has been said that this scheme will exclude 40% of survivors and deny healthcare to two thirds. As was said last week, this scheme excludes survivors who were separated from their mothers before the age of six months in a mother and baby institution or county home. I still have not received a logical explanation for how this six-month timeframe was arrived at. Will the Minister shed some light on this today? This exclusion ignores the lifelong consequences of forced family separation and loss of identity for these 24,000 people. Everyone in this room, including the Minister, will have received thousands of emails in recent weeks from survivors outlining that the Government's plan to deny these survivors recognition is a blatant act of discrimination. My first question is about the six-month timeframe and how it was arrived at. My second question is about the Estimates. If the 24,000 survivors the Government intends to exclude are miraculously included, will the €10 million in the Estimates be enough to start the scheme?

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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There are two key areas where we are providing in this year's Estimates for the response and action plan the Government is bringing forward, namely, subhead C9, which I will speak about in a moment, and subhead C8. Subhead C8 makes provision for €9.1 million. The key element of that is meeting the costs of the Tuam agency that is currently being established. The process for appointing the director is taking place at the moment. We hope to be able to announce the appointment of the director in the next few weeks. A total of €7 million is provided for in the Estimates for the work that will start on the Tuam site this year.

The other key element is subhead C9, which is the establishment of the payment scheme. The €10 million provided for in C9 is to deal with the initial establishment costs while the legislation is being passed. While the Dáil and Seanad are working on that legislation, officials in my Department are putting in place the mechanisms which will be needed to run what will be an extremely large scheme. That is taking place now. We are putting in place the ICT infrastructure and the relevant training for staff on some of the issues discussed in the House during the week. As soon as the legislation is passed and we are in a position to start accepting applications and making awards, my Department will seek a Supplementary Estimate from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform to ensure we have the adequate financial resources to meet the first year of applications. The interdepartmental group's report set out a number of scenarios to estimate the amount of money we expect to be drawn down from the scheme during the five years. Once the legislation is passed, we will make this new application to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform to seek that additional money. As soon as the legislation is passed and as soon as the administrative side is ready, we can start to process the claims and to provide survivors with financial payments and enhanced medical cards.

We have discussed the six-month period previously. We made a determination in the design of this scheme to bring forward a scheme under which former residents would not have to present evidence of abuse or trauma. The best way in which we could reflect people's residence and their experience of being in one of these institutions was in terms of time spent. That can be proved through records that are with my Department which were provided by the commission. Through proof of time spent in the institutions, we can ensure survivors do not have to bring evidence forward or give testimony. We recognise one of the reasons previous redress schemes were heavily criticised was the requirement to provide testimony. People applying under those schemes were asked to give evidence and were cross-examined about their experiences in the institutions. We have brought forward a scheme of payments that recognises time spent in the institution, the harsh conditions in them and the emotional abuse and other forms of trauma that were sustained. The payment increases based on time spent, recognising the impact of the longer stay in those harsh institutional settings. That is the basis on which we brought forward and designed the scheme.

Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I have a supplementary question about that. Why was no consideration given to people who could prove they were there for one day to six months without giving a testimony? How does the need to give testimonies relate to survivors being there for less than six months? The proof is available. We know about vaccine trials, children who were boarded out and separated from their mothers and all the things that happened to children while they were in the institutions. Why is the Minister saying there is a need for survivors who spent less than six months in an institution to give testimony? I do not understand that.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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The design of the scheme was based on the idea of a generalised payment to avoid survivors having to prove individualised experiences such as forced participation in a vaccine trial. It is explicitly to avoid the need to go towards a testimony-based approach that the generalised payment based on the length of time spent in one of these institutions was adopted.

Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I understand that but I still do not understand why it was done for six months but not for one day, if that was the rationale. I still do not understand the arbitrary six-month timeframe. I know that is the scheme the Government is proposing, but why does the generalised payment not start from day one? I will stop there as I can see the Chair looking at me. I am going off topic a little. I may return to this on Report Stage of the Bill.

The DSS was established under the Assisted Decision-Making (Capacity) Act. The service is planned to commence in 2023. When in 2023 will this start? The second part of my question relates to subhead D9 and the increase of €1.9 million to meet the costs of the DSS, including the cost of recruitment, training, payment of fees and expenses. Did the delay in putting the service in place have any impact on the increased cost?

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I do not think it did. The DSS was established a number of years ago and so it is an organisation that exists. Obviously, it has not been undertaking the very significant range of tasks set out for it within the Assisted Decision-Making (Capacity) Act. It will now be undertaking the appointment of decision supporters. Where complaints are made, it will be looking at those complaints. Its range of day-to-day functions will be very significantly enhanced and increased and that is why additional money is being provided for it this year.

Regarding what happens next, I recently spoke at the Joint Committee on Disability Matters. Five statutory instruments need to be passed to initiate the 2015 Act finally. Because of the importance of the work decision supporters are doing, many of the rules on how they operate will be set out in statutory instruments. It needs to be very clear because it will be taking responsibility for decisions. My departmental officials are working on drafting those regulations. Over the coming weeks I will be issuing each of those five sets of regulations. We hope to have the system up and running by quarter 2 of this year. I know I am being a little vague there. I do not have the precise timeline for all five right now. I might come back to the Deputy on that.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome that the Minister has his full team with him today. I also welcome the €463 million, which is a 16% increase in the overall budget. Services, particularly for children, are very important. The committee has frequently discussed difficulties with recruitment and retention. In community healthcare organisation, CHO, 5, there are difficulties with services, including occupational therapists and social workers. What is the Minister doing to try to alleviate this and ensure we are recruiting? I understand a recruitment drive is ongoing. What is the uptake on that?

The national childcare scheme projects a large increase in its spend. There were concerns about the scheme's ability to deliver for disadvantaged families who need it most. How has this been remedied? Does the Estimate include funds for targeted measures for these particular families? Is the Minister satisfied that all children with a disability can access the ECCE programme?

What measures is the Department taking to improve the lives of trans people? All of us have received representations on this matter. Is ample funding being made available for these initiatives? What initiatives are being taken to protect our LGBT community? What is needed to address once and for all the challenges faced by these communities? Does the Department have the tools it needs to make meaningful change for these cohorts, including the appropriate funding? Expertise is also very important here.

The committee has heard that people with disabilities have been left out of some legislative processes, perhaps through tight deadlines and our failure to provide speech-friendly text or plain English versions of legislation. Does the Minister believe meaningful engagement with disabled people is happening? I do not know if it is.

The White Paper promises to abolish direct provision, something the majority of people favour. How can the Department catch up with this important goal, given the challenges the war in Ukraine has presented? The Minister's opening statement referred to increased funding for Ukrainians. I believe there has been a failure there. People in Carlow have contacted me to say they have a home available. One owner of commercial premises contacted me in recent weeks and I know it is possible for people to go online. There seems to be a lack of communication here. People are showing friendship and are trying to help but we are being let down. The information is not readily available. It is necessary to keep ringing.

I now understand that the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, will it be working with local authorities. If, for example, somebody in Carlow contacted me offering premises, it would now go through the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, with the local authority. As the Minister knows, local authorities now have a director in charge of looking after Ukrainians, which is very important. However, when I ring, I cannot get information. There is a lack of communication and the system needs to be quicker. How will the Minister and his Department do that?

I will come back again on the second round.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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The Deputy asked about recruitment, specifically on the disability side of things. The Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, and I are looking forward to the final transfer of responsibility for the HSE's community-based disability services on 1 March. I met the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, and officials to discuss that just prior to this meeting. Obviously, there are many issues relating to disability services. We all recognise the absolute priority of children's disability services and the availability of therapies and interventions for children and young people. A considerable amount of work needs to take place there. Community disability network teams, CDNTs, have been rolled out throughout the country, but there are significant staffing gaps across those. That is having a very significant impact on children and on their parents.

The Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, has introduced a number of initiatives. As was done with social workers, we want to get these therapist roles on the critical skills list so we can recruit from abroad. The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is working with the HSE to introduce a roadmap on progressing disability services, PDS, to demonstrate in the short to medium term what steps can be taken by the HSE, my Department and the Department of Health to improve recruitment and retention and to improve the engagement between the HSE or the local service provider and parents. As we all know, in many places that relationship has broken down and there is a gap of trust. The roadmap document, which we will produce this year, will be important. It will take some time before all the CDNTs are at 100% staffing. How can we move towards that point? What are the key milestones the HSE needs to achieve to deliver for children in that time? I have no doubt we will discuss that in more detail once responsibility has moved to my Department.

The Deputy is right to highlight the very significant increases in investment in childcare we secured in this year's budget. We have an investment of more than €1 billion in childcare for the first time in the history of the State, which is a milestone we were very proud to break and we did so five years early.

Tens of thousands of parents are seeing a benefit from that from 1 January this year in terms of the increased subvention on the NCS, and therefore the decrease in the fees they have to pay.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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My own two daughters were delighted.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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That is very good. I am glad it has been seen to deliver in Carlow.

In terms of the targeted stream for the disadvantaged, that is something my Department is very clear it wants to advance. That is not provided for in this year's Estimate so it is something we will look to bring forward in budget 2024. There is a piece of work being undertaken by my Department to ascertain how exactly it will operate, what will it look like, and how we assess and support disadvantage in all areas. There can be a childcare facility in area of affluence but it may have a number of children from disadvantaged backgrounds.

We are also looking at the AIM. This model currently supports children in accessing the ECCE programme, which offers two years of free preschool, but it does not support them in accessing childcare outside of that. We are looking at how we can broaden AIM in order that more children with a disability can avail of larger amounts of early learning supports and care. Again, we hope to be in a position to bring some proposals forward in next year's budget in terms of broadening that.

One of the most direct ways my Department supports trans citizens is through the LGBTI+ funding it provides. It supports organisations like the Transgender Equality Network Ireland, TENI, which support the trans community. Healthcare is obviously the most crucial area there. I chair the LGBTI+ strategy committee, the members of which have been very focused on the issue of a trans healthcare both for those under and over 18 years of age. I have met with representatives of the Healthy Living Centre, HLC, on this on a number of occasions. There is work taking place to develop our own under-18 services here. That is really important. It comes back to a recruitment issue. It is hard to get the right specialists, particularly a lead psychiatric consultant in this field who would have the requisite skills to be able to lead a service. The HSE has now gone abroad and is looking to recruit there as well.

In terms of the White Paper, obviously we are looking at the three main elements, which are accommodation, supports and integration. The focus now in accommodation is on the delivery of the phase 1 reception and integration centres. We badly need to increase the amount of State-owned accommodation. My Department is far too reliant on the private sector in terms of international protection accommodation and I say that very clearly. It is going to have to build or purchase such accommodation. We are focusing on design in phase 1 of these reception and integration centres in order to have much better control over the quality and the standards within the accommodation. We are also working on the two other elements as well. Regarding the integration element, my Department will be funding two integration officers in local authorities around the country this year. I think they will work with both Ukrainian beneficiaries of temporary protection and international protection applicants. We have an integration fund of over €1 million that is supporting approximately 67 different projects around the country. In terms of supports, HIQA will be undertaking inspection and monitoring of direct provision centres. Again, we are getting a State-recognised organisation to look at the standards being implemented there.

I will conclude by speaking about the engagement between my Department and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. The Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, is doing a piece of work to establish how large residential buildings that need a significant amount of refurbishment work can be assessed to see if there is value for money in bringing them forward and how that work can actually be undertaken. My Department does not have the skills and expertise to undertake refurbishments on buildings. By and large, we have taken buildings that were ready to occupy. That work is being led by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. I know that in recent months, the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, has brought in Conn Murray, who is a former chief executive of Limerick County and City Council, to assist in that work.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister. The Chair and I are keen to remind him that Carlow has been promised a women's refuge. We want Tusla to be given the funding in order to do this.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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My understanding from the interdepartmental group report, which came out in mid-2021, and my recollection, is that the cost of making provision for payments at a similar rate to people who were in institutions for less than six months as a child would have been an additional €300 million. That would have brought the overall cost of the scheme to €1.1 billion. If an enhanced medical card were to be provided to everybody who was there for six months or less, as well as those who were there for over six months, I think the overall cost would go to €1.6 billion.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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As the Deputy knows, the legislation on which the institutional payment scheme will be based is working its way through the Dáil at the moment and subsequently will have to go through the Seanad. When my Department engaged with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform during our work on budget 2023, it indicated that the costings it would propose in budget 2023 would be the costings for the establishment of the payment scheme. Work is already under way on this. I refer to the additional recruitment in the Department, for example, or to the training that is necessary to put in place the mechanisms to run what we know will be one of the largest schemes in the State's history. As soon as the legislation is passed and the administrative structures are put in place, the scheme will be ready to operate. At that point, we will return to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform to seek the financial support to allow for the drawing down of those initial applications by way of a Supplementary Estimate. We imagine that some time later this year, after the legislation has been passed, we will need a Supplementary Estimate to support the initial costs of the scheme for the remaining eight or nine months of the year.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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There will. We are working as quickly as possible to pass the legislation and undertake the administrative work to support the scheme. Obviously the legislation needs to be passed to support the scheme but we are working to get that done.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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Yes, they can.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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Additional staff will be necessary within the Department to oversee the scheme. An IT infrastructure will have to be created to support the application process. We will undertake an information campaign to make people aware of their rights. As the Deputy knows, we undertook a significant information campaign on foot of the Birth Information and Tracing Act 2022. It has come up in discussions that the Department will be undertaking an international campaign, as we did with the 2022 Act, to make people outside of the country aware of what we are doing. A substantial number of people who have left the country will be entitled to make an application under the scheme.

These are a number of the measures that will be supported by the €10 million. This work is under way, which is why the money needs to be in the budget line at the start of the year.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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We continue to engage with the religious institutions. As Deputy Cairns knows, I met them and made the point that it is important they make a substantial contribution to the overall scheme. These engagements are ongoing. I have always been very clear that I did not want the set-up of the scheme to be contingent or dependent on the conclusion of those negotiations. The scheme needs to be set up and in operation. Those engagements with the congregations can continue at the same time.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I am working on passing legislation based on a specific Government decision. Obviously, legislation can be changed subsequently. Schemes can be changed subsequently if a decision is made. I do not want to speculate on where we are with the process right now.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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The Adoption Authority of Ireland and Tusla have been provided with additional resources to increase the levels of staff and increase their systems, particularly IT, to be able to undertake their work under the birth information and tracing legislation. They are provided for under these specific heads. They are not coming from the mother and baby institution heads that we have already discussed. I recognise that there are delays in the provision of information. As of last week, 6,700 people had applied to the Adoption Authority of Ireland or Tusla for their information. Of these, 1,700 have received conclusive answers. Both organisations are making their way through the backlog. There is a backlog and I understand how that is very frustrating for former residents and adopted people. The information is being provided to people. People are being linked to relatives through the tracing scheme which has been set up and through the contact preference register. The overall outcome of the legislation, which is the provision of information for some people who have never got that information before, is being delivered.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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With regard to Adoption Authority of Ireland's pay allocation, which is the key element, its pay increased by €1.1 million between 2022 and 2023. There was a small decrease, to which Deputy Cairns referred, in terms of its overall allocation. The main reason for this is that the big information campaign driven by Adoption Authority of Ireland which took place last year is not being repeated this year. There will be a continued information campaign by authority this year but not at the scale of everyone getting leaflets on buses and trains. With regard to the people to undertake the work, the pay part of authority's allocation increased by €1.1 million between 2022 and 2023.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I would like to return briefly to the point on birth information and tracing legislation. I have a quarterly meeting with Tusla. I stressed to the outgoing chief executive and the interim chief executive the importance I place on Tusla fulfilling the obligations it has to rapidly meet people's request for information and the importance of the organisation doing all it can. We have provided the financial resources and we have also directly raised the issue with the organisation in terms of the work it is doing.

With regard to domestic violence, I am not trying to make an excuse, but this funding stream has been transferred to the Department of Justice. It is now responsible for the funding that Tusla gets for domestic, sexual and gender-based violence services. The Department is responsible for all of the rest, other than the education and support service. I do not have a direct line of sight on that. The Minister, Deputy McEntee, secured a significant increase in funding for services relating to domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. In that context, she has secured capital funding of €9 million. She has brought forward the third national strategy and part of this work is ongoing to identify refuge spaces. Deputies have already referenced a priority area. I will be honest and say I will probably not be able to speak on the detail of the number of refuges this year versus last year.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I have several questions, which are mainly on the NCS.

In the document I have in front of me, are the two pieces of information under subhead B04 to be taken together as the overall spend? Am I correct in thinking that? I refer to the number of children on the NCS and legacy-targeted schemes and then the average full-time NCS subsidy for those living below the relative income poverty line. I am trying to get an exact figure for the increase for the national childcare scheme specifically. It could be here somewhere but it tends to bring ECCE and a few different things together.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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My understanding is that €121 million was the cost of bringing the subsidy from 50 cent up to €1.21.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Pobal carries out a survey on an annual basis but the difference between fees and funding was always around 60% Government funded and then 40% fees. That is the rough estimate. The new scheme potentially means a 25% reduction in fees for parents. What is the increase in funding now between that 60:40 breakdown? Will we have to wait until the Pobal survey comes out?

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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We do not have that quite yet. We will have it later in the year because we also have to take account of the core funding and new funding. Not only have we made the NCS much bigger, we have obviously brought in core funding by brand new enlarged funding as well. We will provide a calculation on that and maybe discuss it later in the year.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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The information on childcare and capital grants is probably in there but I may have missed it. Is there an allocation for that this year? We get many queries about minor works. People ask how they are going to fund something, in particular after a Tusla inspection where it is nothing severe, let us say, but people need to come up with €10,000 to €15,000, which a small service cannot do. Where is that exactly?

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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There is a €9 million capital allocation for the early years sector for 2023.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, it is €9 million.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I will flag that the grant scheme was advertised in the latter part of last year and the deadline has closed for that.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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It has been very heavily subscribed. The €9 million is the improvement grant. Services had until mid-December to apply for it and the outcome for that will be provided in early March. Services will know in early March if they were successful in that regard.

We will be running another capital scheme in the middle of this year for claiming next year in 2024. That will be looking more at expanding services. That one is designed about increasing capacity, which we all recognise is really relevant right now.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, definitely. I also have a question about domestic violence services. Is this all with the Department of Justice now? We were looking at our work programme as a committee and we wanted to look more at aspects or even awareness. A recent study showed that so many people did not understand what coercive control was and all the aspects of that. Does that all fall to the Department of Justice now?

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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The Ministers, Deputies McEntee and Harris, are obviously working on the creation of this new agency, which will take over the functions Tusla currently has in terms of funding for refuges and services around the country. We used to be politically responsible for Tusla doing that. The political responsibility for that has now gone to the Department of Justice.

Once established, the actual job of doing that and the funding will be taken away from Tusla and go into this new agency. My Department now has no accountability role in that. Once the agency is established, Tusla will have no role in that either. In the interim period, however, Tusla will continue to have that role until the agency is set up.

Tusla is accountable to the Department of Justice for that portion of its spend. There is a memorandum of understating in that regard. In the domestic, sexual and gender-based violence, DSGBV, field, leave is basically the one area that remains the responsibility of this Department within the work-life balance directive.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I think that is everything. Does the Minister wish to make any concluding remarks?

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I thank Deputies for their questions today. I particularly thank my officials for joining me and for all the work that went into preparing the Revised Estimates.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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On behalf of the committee I thank the Minister and all the officials. That completes the select committee's consideration of the Revised Estimates for 2023 in respect of Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and Vote 25 - Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission. A message to that effect will now be sent to the Clerk of the Dáil in accordance with Standing Order 101. Is that agreed? Agreed. It is proposed to publish the opening statements on the Oireachtas website. Is that agreed? Agreed.