Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome everyone. I will fulfil this role for a while. I may have to go up to the Chamber but I will stay as long as I can. We will surely find some practical arrangements and work our way through the afternoon. I welcome the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, and his team to the committee to deal with the Revised Estimates. I invite the Minister to make his opening statement.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I thank the committee for the opportunity to present the 2023 Estimate for the Department of Transport and for programme D of the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications.

Taking transport first, the budget is set out in five programmes. They are: programme A, sustainable mobility, active travel and greenways; programme B, carbon reduction and public transport; programme C, road safety and road networks; programme D, civil aviation; and programme E, maritime safety and transport. The set of transport Estimates before the committee provides an overall gross allocation to the Department of Transport of €3.51 billion, which constitutes €894 million in current expenditure and €2.62 billion in capital. The allocation will support our ambitions in delivering on the transport-related objectives in the national development plan, NDP, and the climate action plan, delivering safe, sustainable and accessible transport options in urban and rural areas. It will support our ambitions in maintaining and enhancing road, aviation, safety, security and connectivity.

I will turn first to active travel and greenways, where some €358.665 million is allocated under this programme. My Department continues to deliver on the programme for Government commitment of spending €360 million per year on active travel. Strategic programmes such as the safe routes to school programme will support the design of integrated networks that will greatly enhance safety and accessibility and make active travel an attractive alternative to the private car. The major urban projects to continue construction include the Clontarf to Amiens Street route in Dublin and the MacCurtain Street scheme in Cork. Construction will commence on over 50 front-of-school treatments under the safe routes to school programme and progress will continue on the now extensive pipeline of greenway projects under the remit of Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII.

In addition to major infrastructure projects in planning or actively under construction, the model that many countries now pursue involves making tactical interventions in urban areas at low cost to deliver quick active travel wins. I have worked with the Department, our agencies and local councils in developing suitable pathfinder projects in this space that can be delivered quickly and at relatively low cost. My intention is that these demonstrator projects will pave the way for more widespread behavioural change in how we engage with transport as a society.

Programme B covers sustainable mobility, carbon reduction and public transport. Approximately €1.607 billion has been allocated to this carbon reduction and public transport programme. Some €114.772 million is allocated to carbon reduction measures, including supporting the continued rate in growth of electric vehicles, EVs. In 2023, the focus will start to move away from investing in grants for private vehicles to investing in public EV charging infrastructure, in accordance with the EV infrastructure strategy. Some €563.774 million is allocated in PSO funding. The 20% discount on public transport fares is retained for 2023.

BusConnects spines will continue to roll out with the planned introduction of south Dublin city orbital routes. Design and consultation will continue on BusConnects for regional cities. A business case for Connecting Ireland will be brought to Cabinet in accordance with the public spending code. Some €876.504 million is allocated to public transport investment. Despite well-documented concerns around speed of delivery of investment across the NDP, in 2022, my Department successfully invested over €2.4 billion. The year will see more key public spending code and planning milestones in public transport projects presently under development. The balance of the 41 intercity railcars will be delivered, facilitating an increase in capacity on the intercity network.

Construction will continue on the national train control centre and tenders will be issued for the redevelopment of Ceannt Station. The Cork commuter rail project, part funded through the EU’s national recovery and resilience programme, will also be progressed. The NTA will submit planning applications for the remaining Dublin BusConnects core bus corridors. Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, lodged a railway order with An Bord Pleanála in September and aims to bring MetroLink to decision gate 2 of the public spending code, pre-tender approval. A second round of public consultation will take place on the proposed Cork BusConnects network, while €15 million will be invested in rail and public transport accessibility projects.

In programme C, road safety and road networks, approximately €1.387 billion is allocated to roads and road safety. This funding will maintain and renew the national, regional and local road surfaces; undertake safety works and bridge maintenance and rehabilitation; meet our contractual obligations under public private partnerships, PPP, that delivered parts of our motorway network; fund the construction of new national and regional and local roads; and fund vital safety-related services.

A sum of €240 million has been allocated to the construction of new national roads and €70 million for regional and local road improvement schemes. Construction is continuing on a number of major roads, including the Dunkettle interchange and the N5 Westport to Turlough, the Listowel bypass and N59 Moycullen bypass. Projects with planning approval that will continue to progress towards construction phase include the N28 Cork to Ringaskiddy road and the re-tendered N5 Ballaghaderreen to Scramoge. An allocation of €288.965 million has been made to protection and renewal of national roads, with €555.916 million allocated for regional and local roads and an additional €120.194 million provided for PPP operational payments. In relation to road safety, as well as funding for driver licensing services, €7.3 million has been provided to the Medical Bureau of Road Safety to support its vital work in the area of detecting drug and alcohol misuse by drivers. My Department will work closely with the Road Safety Authority, RSA, on all matters related to road safety.

In programme D, civil aviation, €53.443 million is allocated to aviation. This year will see the commencement of a review of the national aviation policy and the mid-term review of the regional airports policy to ensure the key policies underpinning the aviation sector support delivery of national and regional aviation objectives. As the aviation sector continues to recover from the impact of Covid-19, the amount of current expenditure funding available in emergency supports is significantly down again in 2023. The regional airports programme provides targeted supports to regional airports that handle fewer than 1 million passengers annually. Shannon Airport is eligible to participate in the programme in 2023, alongside Knock, Kerry and Donegal airports. The funding facilitates operational grants and public service obligation funding, as well as investment in a wide variety of safety and security and sustainability related capital projects. A significant security project at Cork Airport will also be supported in 2023. A sum of €11.171 million is allocated to fund services such as air accident insurance and membership of key international organisations.

In programme E, maritime transport and safety, €109.825 million is allocated for this year. Most of that funding is directed to the Coast Guard. This includes delivery of the helicopter contract incorporating search and rescue and air ambulance support to the HSE and the island communities. It also includes investment in the Commissioner of Irish Lights and marine casualty investigations. While it is not directly Exchequer funded by this Department, I am keen to highlight the importance of offshore renewable energy and my Department will work with relevant stakeholders where necessary to progress this critical area. While ports are not directly funded by the Exchequer in the national development plan, NDP, it is my view that in any future reviews of the NDP all options should be kept on the table and all avenues explored to ensure that offshore renewable energy is supported strategically, given its potential for addressing future energy requirements, decarbonisation, improving our security of supply and providing job creation in the emerging industries of the future.

On Vote 29, which falls under the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications, the aim of programme D is to deliver world-class connectivity and communications. To achieve this, just under €294 million is allocated in 2023. This consists of €23.4 million in current expenditure and €270.4 million in capital expenditure. The largest capital expenditure item within this programme is the national broadband plan, at just over €212 million. This investment will continue to progress the roll-out of the fibre broadband network during 2023. Since 2021, more than 120,000 premises have become available for order and pre-order through local broadband service providers across 26 counties. National Broadband Ireland, NBI, is committed to delivering an additional 83,000 premises in 2023. The Government’s objective is that by 2028, through a combination of investment by commercial operators and the national broadband plan, every premises in Ireland will have access to gigabit broadband.

Two new items of capital expenditure are included in the Estimates, both of which relate to An Post. Funding of just under €24 million is provided under the EU Brexit adjustment reserve and €10 million is provided for the post office network. The Government is committed to a sustainable post office network as a key component of the economic and social infrastructure throughout Ireland. In line with this commitment in the programme for Government, an amount of €10 million annually will be provided over the period 2023 to 2025.

The 2023 Estimates also include nearly €11 million in operational funding for the National Cyber Security Centre, NCSC, nearly €3.6 million for the Digital Hub Development Agency and €3.5 million for the National Digital Research Centre. The National Cyber Security Centre is responsible for leading in the management of major cyber security incidents across government. It provides guidance and advice to citizens and businesses on major cyber security incidents and develops strong international relationships in the global cyber security community. The National Cyber Security Centre is undergoing a period of expansion and development in line with the Government decision taken in July 2021. By the end of 2022, staffing in the National Cyber Security Centre had increased to 43 and it will increase by an additional 20 by the end of this year.

I am happy to take any questions relating to the 2023 Estimates for either Department.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister. Before we go to the roster of speakers, we will deal with a few housekeeping matters we overlooked at the start of the meeting. The purpose of the meeting is to consider the Revised Estimates for Public Services for Vote 29 - Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications, programme D, and for Vote 31 - Department of Transport. I remind members that the committee has no role in approving the Revised Estimates. This is an ongoing opportunity for the committee to examine departmental expenditure to make the process more transparent and to engage in a meaningful way on relevant performance issues.

All witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

For anyone watching, Oireachtas Members and witnesses now have an option of being physically present in a committee room or to join in on MS Teams. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she does not adhere to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard I ask all members participating via Microsoft Teams that, prior to making their contributions to the meeting, they confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus. If attending in the committee room, members are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19.

I thank the Minister for his opening statement. We have four members of the committee with us and the original plan was to have two rounds of contributions. We might just give everyone a bit of discretion and leeway. I call Deputy Carey.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy O'Rourke is next.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Deputy Carey. I also thank the Minister for being here and presenting this information. Regarding Connecting Ireland, I was looking at the figures and I also sought figures from the Department and the National Transport Authority. Last year, my understanding was that this was a five-year, €56-million project. It is one that has broad support.

I know communities that have these services very much welcome them because they are transformative. A total of €5.6 million was allocated last year. My understanding is that €3.88 million was actually invested. The NTA told us that €10 million is available for Connecting Ireland this year but the documentation provided by the Department says that just €8.35 million is available for Connecting Ireland. The remainder of the €10 million will go to new town services. In his opening statement, the Minister said that a business plan is being prepared. Nothing in this tells me that this five-year plan will be delivered in anywhere close to five years. Can the Minister outline where the project is and why over the first two years of the project, it looks like we will have a real investment of just above €10 million? It certainly does not match the type of ambition or delivery needed to make any real progress in rural transport. The Minister should bear in mind that he is pushing an open door within the political system. We want these services. What is the state of play?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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The Deputy is correct. There is broad political agreement that Connecting Ireland as a concept and investment makes real sense and that it will be transformative in terms of providing more regular rural bus services and connecting to local towns and other services. We started the consultation back in the autumn of 2021. The first phase projects to test the concept in Kerry and Leitrim proved very successful. Last year, we accelerated the delivery of a number of projects because displaced people from Ukraine needed immediate services but also because the concept had not been tested. Last year, we implemented 25 new routes, of which 17 were delivered by Local Link and a further eight by Bus Éireann. It is being rolled out, is very significant and has been very successful to date. We have a very significant increase in passenger numbers, particularly younger people, availing of the better connectivity.

We now need to expand and roll out from here along the lines of that five-year plan presented by the NTA. As the Deputy notes, it takes a number of years to build up. Our biggest constraint is getting drivers. Regarding final approval in terms of Government procurement, that is working through the system but I am confident in the Government. My colleagues are completely committed and the funding we have provided will allow the NTA to continue to roll out the expanded list of services. They should be made public in the coming weeks. The NTA must manage its work with Bus Éireann and Local Link regarding the roll-out.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Is the business plan going to the Cabinet for it to sign off on the money the Minister is bringing here? Is multi-annual funding the issue? Is it going to deal with that?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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No, the funding is provided for within the budget. The resources we have set out in the Estimates give us all the resources we need to run the additional services the NTA is planning. It is the wider agreement on the overall approach in terms of BusConnects-----

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Connecting Ireland.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Exactly, Connecting Ireland. We started rolling it out last year because a lot of people needed immediate bus services. It is working and will be expanded each year. The lessons we are learning from it about connecting other services are very interesting. What we also need to do as part of the business plan is significantly improve the marketing, design and implementation of bus stops and so on so people are aware of the services.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Is it not all too slow? I could give the example of the No. 188, which is a new route for which I hand-delivered the timetables. When I was a councillor, I campaigned for this service because everybody knew it was missing. Children and others who live in a town but go to school, shop and do their work in a neighbouring town cannot get a bus service to it. I have spoken to a bus driver who works on the new route and he has told me about the real difference it makes to people to be able to visit family and friends not just once a month but on a daily basis. It is transformative and exactly the type of thing I believe we should be doing to show people the opportunity in our response to climate change. If we improve public transport and connectivity, people do not have to rely on private cars to connect them with the places where they live their lives, work and go to school.

The Minister's approach is at best incrementalism. I recognise that there are challenges in terms of recruitment of drivers. I hear from the operators that there challenges in getting buses that meet the requisite standard. If the Government's signal is that a €56 million plan which is supposed to be rolled out over five years is going to involve €5 million in the first year, with just €4 million of it bring spent, and €10 million in the second year to see where we go, it does not suggest that this is priority one, two or three within its offices, or that it will deliver transformative change.

The Minister saw the climate action plan. RTÉ News latched on to the idea of Connecting Ireland. It had obviously never heard of it before. The idea is that we will provide return services three times a day to and from communities of over 300 people. Rural Deputies and others can see how that has the potential to deliver transformative change in public transport in rural communities that have not been serviced before. People are putting their hand up to use public transport. There is a five-year plan from the NTA. In my opinion, all of the signals from the Government are that if it is delivered at all, it will take well in excess of five years. What does the Minister have to say about that? Is he struggling with the Department to secure funding for it? What are the barriers?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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The Deputy asked whether this is priority one, two or three. I will say in all honesty that it is number one. I have said so in numerous places, and not just here. It involves closing a gap because there is nothing at present in many instances. As we come out of Covid and pursue the Town Centre First strategy, many people are now engaged in remote working and benefit from having public transport so it is priority number one. You could argue that it should be faster but if you look over the past six months, you can see we have been introducing a new service or two new services pretty much every week. We are launching new bus services week in and week out. If you look at Transport for Ireland on social media, you will see the full list covering the past six months. Week in and week out, we are announcing new services. This will continue next week, when the NTA will present in more detail further services to be added. It is a priority.

It operates in difficult circumstances where there is a gap in our PSO funding for all. This is public service funding. It is not commercial. It does not cover the costs or even a fraction of them so it requires that kind of political commitment and that is certain and is there. We are in the early stages but it has proved really successful. Passenger numbers are way ahead of projections. As the Deputy says, every politician around this country, particularly those representing rural Ireland and the areas where those 25 new routes have already been delivered, would say the same thing to me, namely, that this should be our number one priority and it is.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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With due respect, it does not feel like it is based on the roll-out and delivery. The Minister has heard me compliment the services that are being delivered but they are below the targets the NTA set last year. For example, the Kentstown route was to be delivered last year. It was not. It was delivered this year and is welcome. It is the same for other services and in respect of the phased roll-out over five years. We do not have that. I raised this before with the Minister as a priority question. I refer to the challenge of multi-annual funding. There was €4 million last year and €8.35 million this year. What will the allocation be in 2024 and 2025? Do we have those figures? What is being allocated and how many services are going to be rolled out this year, next year and the year after that?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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As the Deputy has said, it doubled year on year. I expect that sort of expenditure growth to continue and for it to double again. These are not the only services we have to deliver; there are also town bus services and other BusConnects services. However, the number one priority is to make sure the Connecting Ireland programme is rolled out because it has transformative potential for areas where there are no services at the present time.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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It does.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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If I may make one more point, which has regard to a bright light on the horizon, as the Deputy will know better than anyone else, it is not just about Connecting Ireland, but the town services. The NTA tells me that the numbers in Navan are just spectacular since the town bus services were improved and increased in number. The public in Navan is responding at scale. There is a tremendous volume of interest. It is not just about Connecting Ireland. What has happened in this country in the last year is really interesting. We are outside the norm. Most other comparator countries have not seen a return to public transport. As the figures announced yesterday by the NTA show, we have. We are back to pre-Covid levels. We are an outlier in that. We are very unusual. There are no similar examples among advanced and developed western countries. This is because of a combination of new services, 20% lower fares and the political commitment behind all of this. Everyone knows that we are committed to really pushing out buses in the next two to three years.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I can vouch for that. I know very many people who use the Navan bus service. I accept that point but I will also make the point that Connecting Ireland is also doing other things that speak to the issue of car dependency in rural areas that town services will not. With regard to transformational change in transport, this dependency is a particular challenge. Connecting Ireland has a really important role in that.

The Minister has provided funding for civil aviation. I know there were meetings with the Dublin Airport Authority, DAA, whose representatives were on the radio this morning. The interruption caused by drones at Dublin Airport could happen anywhere, including at Shannon Airport, at other airports or at public events. The DAA has indicated it would like capacity to take down drones. How did last night's discussions go? Where will we go from here in addressing that issue, which is very disruptive for commuters and our aviation sector?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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The Deputy is absolutely right. The first message I would put out is similar to what Kenny Jacobs said on "Morning Ireland" this morning. I say to anyone who is doing this that it is really dangerous. If a drone got caught in the engine of a plane in flight, it could potentially have catastrophic consequences. This is a really serious issue and anyone engaged in managing a drone within 5 km of the perimeter of Dublin Airport or near any other airport is, as Mr. Jacobs said, subject to a term in prison of up to seven years on indictment for that offence. It is really significant and serious. First and foremost, it is a matter for the Department of Justice and it is for An Garda Síochána to pursue and prosecute anyone involved. At the meeting last night, the representatives of An Garda Síochána, the aviation authorities, Dublin Airport, the Department and others were all committed to doing everything we can to reduce the threat that such flying of drones near airports creates.

What the Deputy will have heard Mr. Jacobs say this morning is that the DAA is interested in the State adopting some of the evolving technologies to take down drones. The airport has mechanisms to detect drones but none to disable them or bring them down. That technology is evolving. It is very much at the cutting edge of military technology rather than civil aviation technology. There is certainly nothing within our Department. We do not have such military capability. However, we will work with other organs of the State to see how far advanced such technology is and whether it could be deployed. It will not be deployed immediately because, as I have said, this is new and evolving technology. That is one of the issues we will look at. In the meantime, it is very important that the airport work very closely with An Garda, which it does, so that, in any instance, it can immediately monitor and try to find the source of any drone. We must deploy all the powers the State does have - and there is legislation in this area - so that anyone caught doing this can be prosecuted and dealt with.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I will be contributing next and have a few questions to put to the Minister. Under programme D, which relates to civil aviation, I will pick up from where Deputy O'Rourke left off on the issue of drones at Dublin Airport. In recent days, this has been having serious consequences for the airport and for all who depend on and use it. As the Minister has said, drones passing over the airfield and apron at Dublin Airport pose a very grave safety risk for aircraft taking off, landing or taxiing. It is very worrying. There is drone jammer technology, which I believe the Minister was probably alluding to. While this is not yet mainstream, it is used over some airfields in America to keep the perimeter area entirely free of drones. Has that been looked at? Has any specific technology been looked at? We cannot really wait for a Europe-wide approach to this.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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We will not wait. We will look at whatever technology exists. As I have said, this is evolving technology. Drone technology has been brought to the centre stage by the war in Ukraine and one expects the counter-drone technology developed as a result will be very significant. However, in the discussions we had last night, we heard the expertise of civil authorities and An Garda Síochána rather than that of the military. We are working with our colleagues in the Department of Defence to see what other capabilities are available in that regard. I do not expect such technology to be deployed immediately because this is highly complex technology. We would use it if it was ready off the shelf but it is not. There was strong sense that we should look at every option at last night's meeting. It may take a certain amount of time but there is no lack of urgency. I have to talk to the Tánaiste. He was away in the US yesterday. However, as Minister for Defence, he will have to advise as to what is possible and what could be deployed.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Expediency is the name of the game. As Deputy O'Rourke has said, certain leeway needs to be given to Dublin Airport Authority staff, particularly airport police, so that they can take down drones in the apron area. It is a different matter entirely if it is encroaching on the runway. If it is in the apron area or by the perimeter fence, the Minister should give leeway or, indeed, direction such that the authority can take such a drone down.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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One of the complications with any take-down technology is that we have to be careful to ensure that it does not interfere with other aviation communications technology in the airport. It is a very sensitive site so nothing should be deployed unless you are absolutely sure that it will not interfere with any of the other communications systems in operation. Some of the physical means of taking down drones come with their own risks. That is why consideration of the best way to take down drones is a military issue.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I will ask the Minister about the transfer of Shannon Heritage sites to local authorities in the mid-west. This comes under the Minister's Department at the moment because Shannon Heritage is managed by the Shannon Group.

A Cabinet decision was taken in, I think, summer 2021, where Cabinet collectively felt the best way forward for iconic sites like Bunratty Castle and others was to vest them in local authorities where they could be better run and managed. All of that has been progressing. An incredible amount of due diligence has been undertaken by Clare County Council, which will take over these sites in County Clare. It has had some difficulties in ascertaining the full financial situation of those sites, but I think it has got to the bottom of it now. It is now at the point that for this to be a success and to fulfil the wish of Government in summer 2021, Clare County Council has asked for a funding lump sum. On 18 December, the day Deputy Varadkar become the Taoiseach, I spoke to Ministers as we gathered in Leinster House who assured me that funding was coming for the transfer. The funding offer came two or three days later and it was under €3 million, well short of the €15 million asked for in the region. Every round of negotiations and every meeting of this interdepartmental group seems to take weeks and weeks to convene and to report back. We want a conclusion. These are tourism sites. They have already missed out on some key bookings and some coach companies have cancelled on them. The fear is that the lead-in to the summer 2023 season may already be passed. They need some certainty.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I agree. I have a similar view to the Acting Chairman that Clare County Council should be the lead agent in developing, managing and getting the best from the sites because it has the expertise and other tourist locations in the county and it fits within its scope. Clare County Council, as Deputy Crowe said, came with an ask for funding, although in truth Shannon Development had already covered a lot of the costs initially regarding the separation out of the heritage sites. There are ongoing negotiations between my Department, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and Clare County Council to resolve that. I am keen that we resolve it quickly. It is around complex estimates of what some of the costs may be. There are different views on that. We cannot have a situation where Clare County Council says it is a specific amount; it has to be assessed. Each of the Departments must make sure it is appropriate that further funding is provided. What the exact figure would be, between some €3.5 million and the €15 million I think Clare County Council was looking for-----

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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It was €15 million.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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That should be settled quickly. It cannot be a situation where Clare County Council just names a figure, walks away and that is it. It has to be based on proper audited estimates of what the likely costs are.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I agree with everything the Minister said. However, the time factor is the big frustration for everyone at this point. We went through a 12-month period of, "Will they, won't they?" Will the Government fund Clare County Council to make this takeover a success? We heard in December that it would, which was a positive development. Then the money came and it was well short of what was hoped for and anticipated. We are at a point where there is an incongruence regarding the figures of what Government is in a position to offer and what the council is willing to take. I was mayor of Clare County Council in 2019. It prides itself, as many local authorities do, in having a balanced budget each year. To take on a liability like this without significant Government funding to see it through its early years to the point where it can wash its own face financially is an important issue. It needs to move on with expediency. To suggest a solution, there are four or five Departments involved, along with Clare County Council and Shannon Group. While we come repeatedly looking for funding operationally to help it develop routes and sustain itself, we need that funding coming in, but they all sit on a considerable bank of capital assets. Perhaps some of those, combined with Government funding, could be pulled together in a multi-departmental approach to make sure this money comes through. Will the Minister comment on that?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I would be nervous about weakening Shannon, either the estate, the industrial site estate or the airport. It is doing a good job and has already gone a long way to facilitate the transfer of Shannon Heritage. The issue is not how much the Government will be able to offer or what Clare County Council would be willing to take. It requires resolving what exactly it is going to cost. That figure, when agreed, and it will be agreed shortly, will allow us to move to the next stage, which we have to do.

Deputy Eamon Ryan: I would be nervous about weakening Shannon, either the estate, the industrial site estate or the airport. It is doing a good job and has already in a sense gone a long way to facilitate the transfer of Shannon Heritage. The issue is not how much the Government will be able to offer or what Clare County Council would be willing to take, it requires resolving what exactly it is going to cost. That figures, when agreed, which it will be shortly, allows uys to move to the next next, which we will have to do.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister. Arising from today's meeting, although he is not able to give dates or final figures, could he commit this afternoon or tomorrow to speaking or communicating with the other stakeholders on the interdepartmental group to move it on more? It has stagnated again since December.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I had a meeting with officials about this earlier this week. We all agreed we need to get this resolved quickly.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister. He also has an application before him for a public service obligation, PSO, route, from Shannon Airport to Amsterdam Airport Schiphol. Where is that at? I think it has been in since September or October. I can come back to that. I know the officials help the Minister with briefing us. That is a question we may come back to.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I will put it broadly, because I do not have the details in my notes. It is an Estimates rather than a policy briefing I have before me. On a note of caution, I recall that, even in the midst of Covid-19 when it was challenging and the ability to get EU state aid rules adapted to help us through the emergency was strong, we were looking at the options of PSO routes from Shannon to elsewhere and it was proving difficult. When there are neighbouring airports, including Shannon and other operators running services, it is difficult to show there is a complete failure of the market. That is a word of caution, having dealt with European authorities on some of this in recent years. It is not as easy to introduce PSO services as some may think.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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It is essential to have some hub connectivity into Europe. There is Heathrow Airport in London, but since the advent of Brexit, that is no longer the perfect stepping stone to continental Europe. The Committee on Transport and Communications travelled to Amsterdam and Rotterdam airports some weeks ago to see what they had to offer in aviation. We were very impressed by it. It is time to move on with the decision. I hope it will be approved. Even if it is not to be approved, it is important to move it off the table. The big heavy hitters in the airline business have already set out their summer routes, and as they plan for the autumn schedule and what comes after that, they are looking at the prospect of a PSO sitting on the table, as it were, and not moving. While this remains undecided, it makes it difficult for an operator who wants to run a service to Schiphol, Paris Charles de Gaulle or Frankfurt. Will the Minister's office move it on?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I agree. There would be real benefit to Shannon from having such a continental connection to a continental hub airport. I 100% agree with that. We have to be careful even in the discussion of this PSO possibility that it might get in the way or delay the arrival of such a service. That is one of the risks.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The Road Safety Authority, RSA, was before the committee last week. Mr. Sam Waide was here. He has made an ask of the Minister's Department that 40 additional driving testers be approved. This is a major barrier, particularly to youngsters trying to get a full driving licence. It is more punitive in rural areas where there are not all these incredible transport links. I believe the testing period in the Kilrush area in west Clare at the moment is 29 weeks from the time you apply, which is unworkable. This coincides with a time when it is extremely costly to live away from home or to attend college. Many youngsters are trying to commute from rural counties to work or college. Having a full licence is essential. There is an ask before the Minister's Department. I note it is not in today's Estimates. Is it something the Minister can approve or sign off on? It would be transformative to see these testers working throughout the country.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I think the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, made the point regarding the delays Deputy Crowe cited, not just in driver testing but in a number of different areas regarding licences and the national car test, NCT, etc., that it is completely intolerable that we are so far beyond expected timelines to deliver them. There has been no shortage or lack of willingness to provide the extra staff in each of the various areas, including driver testing. The application the Deputy referred to is still being considered but I do not believe the restriction will be on the departmental side in terms of getting the allocation for that. We want to get the numbers down, which will require additional driving testers. We are not going to block or restrict the ability of the RSA to scale up the testing capabilities.

I would simply ask the Minister to sign off on that because the RSA is waiting on it. We heard it very clearly here last week. It needs to get these 40 additional drivers. There is then the whole lead-in of advertising, recruiting and appointing them to various test sites. The longer it sits on a desk, the longer young people, especially in rural Ireland, are disadvantaged. It is a simple point. We just ask this be signed off on.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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It is not sitting waiting on our desks. We are waiting for further information from the RSA to be able to sign off on it.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. I met recently with some diplomats from another country. I will not betray all of the meeting with them. They were very helpful but they made it very clear if the Irish ports do not get themselves in order, theirs would be the country that will be able to build offshore turbines, tow them into position and anchor them to the seabed. They said that while Ireland has really far-reaching plans for offshore wind, which I am aware are very close to the Minister's heart, the onshore capacity to deliver them simply is not there. Belfast is probably the only port in the country fully configured to start taking in this infrastructure in a half-assembled state and then bring it out to where it needs to be at.

What I heard loud and clear is many other European countries are very helpful, but for a good reason, which is that this is lucrative stuff. If the ports of Rosslare, Foynes etc. are not positioned to develop and bring this infrastructure to where it needs to be at, we will see the likes of Bremen, Hamburg, Rotterdam etc. filling that void. There is the altruistic, environmental reason to go there and do all that, but then there is the lucrative aspect as this is going to make huge money for Ireland through electricity generation. The other lucrative phase is construction and development and bringing the turbines on site. That phase of financial windfall could very quickly pass us by. Will the Minister comment on how we can better position ourselves?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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We have to avoid that. There is huge potential for a ports in particular to benefit from the development of offshore wind. That will be in three types of development. One will be operation and maintenance. That will be a large number of ports right around the coast, with smaller vessels maintaining and operating the turbines. Then there will be deployment ports. They will be the ones where we import the turbines and blades. We need a place to store them, assemble them and ship them. To do that, quayside walls with a depth of something like 11 m and a good berth of 400 m or 500 m in quayside length are needed because these turbines are huge. There are a number of ports. As the Deputy said, it cannot be just Belfast and it cannot just be everything being shipped in from Rotterdam or elsewhere. We are looking at having, and pushing as part of the task force on offshore development to ensure we have, ports in place on the island of Ireland that are able to deploy some of the seven relevant projects that are in the first phase, which will start being deployed from 2026 onwards.

There there is a third development. The Deputy was at that Bechtel launch of the report. The Shannon-Foynes Estuary is an example of where there is port development as a big industrial development opportunity in the construction and fabrication of floating offshore turbines in particular and the storage and deployment of them, but also the use of the power when it comes back onshore, so its huge industrial potential is very real. Our first task is to get the deployment ports ready to deliver the phase 1 projects, and there are a number of ports in the running for that. They have a difficult situation. It is a bit like the chicken and the egg because they will have to make the investment decision prior to contracts being signed, in all likelihood, that is, prior to projects getting through planning permission. Our planning system is uncertain in timelines so there is going to have to be a leap of faith, but that leap will have to be made by a number of ports. I had a meeting with people from one of them yesterday and we are committed to ensuring this is a project that develops our economy and that it is not just that we are using our seabed as a resource but also that we are developing our land ports as economic centres on the back of it. That will be delivered. It has to be.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister and his officials.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I hope I will be given leeway and be forgiven, as I had to leave. I had Alex McArdle, from the Marist school in Dundalk, up on work experience, so it is about trying to get all the box-ticking done and probably failing miserably.

I imagine the Minister has already dealt to some degree with the issue of drones given the weekend we had. May I have some detail on what exactly is going to be proposed as a long-term solution? I saw that the Minister and the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, met the Irish Aviation Authority, IAA, the Dublin Airport Authority, DAA, An Garda Síochána and, I assume, any other stakeholder or organisation with an acronym that was available. This is an ongoing problem across the board. I think of Gatwick in 2018 and so on. We know there are difficulties with penalties, the ability to fine people and registration. We have a detection system but the we do not have a means of disabling drones. I think France and others have systems in play whereby the signal can be jammed and even take control of drones. Have we had discussions with the Garda, the Defence Forces and experts about delivering that sort of solution?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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The Deputy is right that is part of the conversation or discussions we had last night. We had a meeting of the relevant agencies and Department about what happened at the airport. It is not new. There had been a number of instances over the past year. Last weekend was unusual in that, three days in a row, in effect, there were drone intrusions that required diversion of certain flights. It is not just the diversion of flights as there are other heightened security risks even with having flights holding. It backs up into the European network because we then have to start giving signals to some of the departing airfields that Dublin has this problem.

We have quite extensive legislation on drone technology with respect to the need for permitting, licensing and operating drones. There is no shortage of what is, very correctly, punitive legislation if people are caught. I expect there will be prosecutions if people are caught. It is not as if the Garda has not had instances where it may be able to prosecute. Nothing is-----

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is up to a seven-year sentence or something, is it not?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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That is right. It is the maximum on indictment. It is an important message for anyone doing this who may think this is without consequences. It could potentially have huge consequences, including incarceration. It is a very significant issue.

On the issue of the military capability to bring down drones, we must be careful here.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I mean taking control rather than anything else.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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That is very much an evolving technology. An example was cited of what the French airports are doing in preparation for the Olympic Games in 2024. We will look at that and liaise with the Department of Defence and the Air Corps. However, as I said earlier, while we are willing to deploy such technology, it is not going to be done immediately. On an immediate basis, we are going to have rely on An Garda Síochána working with the DAA to use the existing legislative powers and technology we have while looking for those other technological options as quickly as we can, though I understand it is not without its own complexities.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I accept that. There is a piece of work that must be done. I imagine even the committee has a piece to do on this, what best practice is across the world and a solution to the problem. Obviously, if we were dealing with good manners, we would never need legislation for most things. It is about getting the idea out that the area is not just the airport but 5 km around it every which way. It is about getting that into people's minds and ensuring they are all aware of that.

The registration of drones is a problem and I assume something we need to look at. That might be rules and regulations, as I said.

Maybe there is some short-term technological fix in being able to say a particular drone has a certain ID that shows it belongs to Ruairí Ó Murchú or to Eamon Ryan, for example, or whoever else.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Yes, that is where we can and should look at tightening up to make sure we get full information. These technologies are readily available. They are very small and very easy to conceal. They are very easy to import and easy to deploy. We do need to use all the mechanisms we can to regulate them. We were advanced in introducing legislation, which is ongoing. We are particularly looking at adopting EU legislation. Often, legislation in this sort of technological area works best on a European-wide basis because it applies to all manufacturers and distributors. One gets a much more effective control.

The Deputy referred to it not being good manners. I believe it goes beyond that. There is a threat to people's lives when a drone is put up around an airport. This is why the prosecution and the efforts of An Garda Síochána are so important. This is a criminal matter and it must be dealt with with real severity. The potential consequences of flying a drone is not about manners, it is a real threat.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I agree. I paraphrased what a garda had said whereby many rules and regulations would not be needed if people just complied with the law or had good manners in some cases or both. I accept that this is far more serious. We are talking about aviation here and we can all imagine the dangers, never mind the hold-up and that many people have also been impacted. That is the wider issue when we are talking about international solutions. From a technological perspective that makes sense.

The committee has done a piece of work around aviation and we have had multiple stakeholders in. The Minister is probably aware of some of the commentary by them. One of the simple solutions around the problem of the backing up of flights, the overuse of fuel and flights being delayed and people missing their connections is the talk about the European open skies agreement. What interactions has the Government had on that, be it with the European Commission or whoever else? Do we foresee something like this any time in the near future, accepting that there may be difficulties with certain member states and even with stakeholders within that? I am aware that there was talk about unions in France and so on.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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This issue is raised at the EU Council transport meetings. There is a whole swathe of legislation coming through the Council meetings and particularly with regard to the Fit for 55 plan to meet climate targets. We had thought that the agreement on open skies would be one of the policies to be progressed more quickly, and we are frustrated at the delay and difficulty in getting that. From an Irish perspective, it makes eminent sense. It makes for a safer, cleaner, quicker and better air system for everybody. That is still being debated within the complex Council trilogue process. We would like to see it resolved immediately in the Swedish Presidency. Going on my recollection of our last briefing with officials, we have been surprised at how slow and difficult it has been to get other countries in Europe to agree that. We certainly continue to push it. We would like to see it delivered as part of this package of legislation before the Council.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Without asking the Minister to look into a crystal ball, does he believe this is doable in a reasonable time, accepting that the Minister wants it to happen tomorrow?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Yes I do, because it makes sense. It saves money, as well as being environmentally beneficial.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that. I will finish up on aviation. There is considerable conversation about sustainable aviation fuel. Perhaps Minister will give the committee an update on Government policy for making this happen. We are all aware of the environmental impact of aviation but we are an island and we all know the absolute necessity in making sure we stay connected. We just need to do it in as environmental a way as possible.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Again, it is one of those elements within the European Union legislative package where we are going to be compelled - I believe appropriately - to have percentages available. The technology in this area continues to evolve and my sense is that the first sustainable aviation fuel that could really be used in widespread deployment will be using waste oil, such as hydrogenated vegetable oil. Its blending into existing kerosene to reduce emissions and to have a more secure fuel supply will be the first step. Probably a more medium-term development will be the use of synthetic fuels involving hydrogen, methanol, or other derivatives derived in many instances potentially from electrolysis from surplus electricity supplies. This is the medium-term prospect we want to deliver. We would have a comparative competitive advantage there, as well as having a necessity as an island nation to have an aviation system that works.

In Rotterdam and elsewhere we are starting to see companies starting to offer contracts around the provision of sustainable aviation fuels. Our neighbours in the UK, and the Dutch and others, are particularly advanced in their ambition and the higher percentage they want to contribute. Going back to our discussion earlier about Shannon Airport, it is my view that there is potential for an airport like Shannon Airport to use some of its strategic advantages such as a direct connection to a deep-water jetty so any ship could come in to deliver fuel. It has under-apron storage facilities that would allow storage, unlike Dublin Airport where fuel must be trucked up from Dublin Port. Shannon Airport is also in a location that has industrial processing capability and major energy infrastructure assets. Shannon Airport was always one of the first places to be pioneering in aviation. It is the first point of contact with the US to Europe and so on. As I said to the chair and chief executive of Shannon Airport, I believe we should be looking at taking certain airports and picking them as exemplars or test cases for pioneer projects. I met the US Secretary of Transportation, Mr. Pete Buttigieg, last year. I said to Mr. Buttigieg that if they were looking for a location in Europe where they might want a first transatlantic zero-carbon flight system, we would be very interested in facilitating that in any way we can at Shannon Airport. That is one of the ways I would like to see it progressing. I have asked the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, as the Minister of State with responsibility for aviation to see what might be delivered in that regard.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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So, we are looking at something in the near future, call it a pilot or whatever. Obviously there are necessary moves that would need to happen.

We are also dealing with An Post in this meeting. While everybody welcomes the allocated money, is it sufficient to ensure the sustainability of the post office network?

My other question relates to the national broadband plan. We are all aware of the significant investment in that. We are finally at a place where the targets are looking to be met. I hope I am not jinxing myself in relation to that. We have always talked about acceleration. Initially we had discussed the seven-year project being five years but now I believe that all stakeholders would say that it is probably more realistic to say it will be six years. There will be a huge reliance on Eir. I am aware there are legal issues around what NBI calls the self-install product. That would give it the facility to do more of those pieces of work itself. It is about Eir providing a greater level of capacity to NBI or allowing it to do this. Again, I am aware there are some legal issues. Where is the engagement at? Are we any closer to delivering a six-year project?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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In respect of An Post, that three-year decision for €10 million for each of the next three years is designed to maintain the network that is hugely important for social cohesion with great potential for the delivery of State services, which is one of the things An Post has looked to increase to increase the footfall in the post offices. There is also a real necessity for such a network at a time when other institutions around the country such as banks are closing. That whole banking finance model has changed.

An Post is seeing progress on the parcel post side and continuing decline in the letter post side. The real critical thing for us is to develop the other services, as well as providing €10 million, so we continue to have that network. The investment of €30 million, committed over three years, was a clear signal of intent from Government in that regard.

On the national broadband plan, everyone in this room will know more than anyone else how Covid delayed the plan by at least a year for a variety of reasons such as not being able to get contractors in and so on. In the last year we have seen that 12-month delay has started to close and is several months shorter from our original targets because roll-out is starting to pick up. We had a target for the end of January of 102,000 houses passed and I understand that 109,000 houses will actually be delivered, so the plan is ahead of what was projected this time last year. We will shortly connect the 30,000th customer using the fibre gigabyte-type services. Again, that service is ahead of projection. The uptake has been faster than originally proposed within the business case. A lot of the plans for broadband connection points, BCPs, particularly in digital hubs across the country are starting to work with the Town Centres First policy and people being able to remote work but having really fast services. That option is starting to be used as a business, economic and social service right across the country so it is working. Yes, we will try to continue that further acceleration. I do not have details on the legal issue concerning Eir and the ability of NBI to make its own connection. It is in everyone's to speed up the roll-out.

As we approach the full roll-out of rural broadband, strangely, the light will then turn to urban areas where they may still be black spots that do not benefit from the rural broadband scheme. Those spots are being closed because the likes of SIRO, Eir and Virgin Media are investing in fibre right across the country. In the international league tables we are going right up in terms of the speed and quality of our connectivity. The national broadband plan is working and working just at the right when coming out of Covid. Not everyone has to commute up to the big city every day.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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No, and that is why the NDP is necessary. The plan is working. Obviously anyone who still has a number of years of waiting must be provided with an alternative in the short term and in an awful lot of places this has happened down to mobile phone companies and their low-earth orbit satellite systems etc. A piece of work is being done by the mobile and broadband task force and the Commission for Communications Regulation, ComReg. We need to ensure that we get the information out to people who are panicking because they see they must wait three or four years. We must make sure those people are aware of the alternatives that are available. Beyond that, that piece of work and engagement on acceleration needs to happen because it is definitely a lot better for everyone if we can deliver in six years rather than seven years.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I was going to go back to members, which will give the Deputy another chance to come in, if that is okay?

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Does anyone want to make a second contribution? Deputy O'Rourke has five minutes.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Minister ambitious to see the scheme of fares reductions extended beyond the end of 2023? It is of interest to me that the NTA and so many were surprised by the response and uptake in public transport because my party and I had for some time advocated for a reduction in fares yet were consistently met with the argument that a reduction in fares would not necessarily see the type of uptick in use that we might expect. Now we have got a very real evidence base in an Irish context. Will the Minister push for the fare reductions to remain in place?

On the national development plan, very many projects have been included on the long list of the NDP. Will the Minister review the overall budget envelope for the NDP out to 2023? I ask because it strikes me that the projects in the pipeline are getting more expensive by the day and that the budget envelope will go less and less of a distance.

My last question concerns the funding for the national and regional roads programme. There seems to have been a significant decrease in funding for the maintenance and repair of national roads. Why is that the case this year?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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On the fares, my intention is that we would continue the reductions we have introduced because a clear consistent signal works. There are other examples of other countries where they implemented quite dramatic fare reduction measures but they had to unwind them and a stop-start approach does not work as well. Our approach is working. Earlier I attended a Labour Employer Economic Forum, LEEF, meeting - we have these quarterly meetings with employers and unions. They accepted what the Government did, not just in the budget in terms of energy credits but in reducing the cost of living at a time when the cost of living is a real problem with inflation, and reducing public transport fares, reducing college fees and reducing childcare costs was a way to get the economic balance right. We can maintain our budgetary position and we do not have what they have in the UK at the moment with everyone on strike. We can maintain people's income in real ways, not just by increasing everything but by sometimes cutting some of the costs the State has responsibility for. It is my sense that our economic approach worked so therefore, we should continue.

Work needs to be done on the fares side, and the Deputy knows this more than anyone else that because there are certain areas where on a geographic basis, it is very unfair. When one goes out to some parts of counties Meath or Kildare one goes beyond a certain range and then suddenly there is a jump in prices. Therefore, the fares are very unfair for long distances and bus commuters particularly. I believe that we need to update the fares structure so that it really does cover distance in an equitable way. Recently I met representatives of the NTA to discuss this matter. I expect us to publish an updated fares structure, not to increase fares but get rid of some of the anomalies for people, particularly for the likes of distant towns like Edenderry, Kildare and Naas. There are examples, particularly in the greater Dublin area, of injustices in some of our fares system. That work will need to be done but maintain the 20% reduction. This will not be easy because it does cost. We have a shortfall in meeting the public service obligation. I have ongoing negotiations with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform to close that. I am confident we will but there is a cost and it is appropriate that the State would cover that.

With regard to the roads, the protection and renewal of the roads is being maintained because it is important. That is the thing you do not scrimp on because ultimately, it is much more expensive if you have to go back later. In other words, if you allow a big pothole develop and it corrodes the underlying surface then it is more expensive to repair than if you had maintained the quality of the surface in the first place.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Where I see a funding fall-off is in subhead C3 of the national roads investment. Last year, between current and capital funding, it was €783.3 million and this year it is €678.2 million.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I do not see those figures.

If I may, the protection and renewal figure is pretty much being maintained. There will, in the next two to three years, be a switch in investment towards public transport as compared with roads investment. We will still be investing significantly in roads but the Government committed to a 2:1 ratio in favour of new public transport projects. The reality is there are certain critical public transport projects, such as Cork metropolitan rail, BusConnects in Cork, Dublin, Galway and Limerick, Waterford railway station being moved, DART+ heading out towards Maynooth in the west and the metro. There is a list as long as your arm of vital public transport projects which have not got sufficient funding in the past ten to 20 years. That investment will tend towards more public transport as compared to roads. It is not that we will not be building the roads programme but we will have to prioritise.

In response to the Deputy's question about whether we reopen the national development plan, NDP, to a certain extent I would love to reopen it now because I would be opening it and saying happily that we want more. We put in €70 billion worth of projects and we did well to get a €35 billion allocation within the NDP. The Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the Department of Transport are probably the two Departments that got the biggest commitment. I am conscious that the Ministers, Deputies Donohoe and Michael McGrath, would be nervous. We only agreed it last year and if one starts immediately amending it, one loses some of the certainty. One has to stick to the plan.

The real challenge for us is in the timelines or the length of time it takes to deliver. The reason it is expensive is that it takes so long. Our biggest constraint is on the planning side. There is a real problem. We have metro north in planning, DART+ in planning, Cork metropolitan rail in planning, BusConnects in planning in Dublin and BusConnects Galway in planning - I could go on and that is only in transport - and there is not real certainty in terms of when they will be coming out of planning.

There was one estimate given to me recently. Every week that we delay on the metro is costing us millions of euro and the real challenge is the speed with which we can consider some of these projects through the planning system. For roads and public transport and for all our projects, that is the biggest obstacle to getting infrastructure built and getting value for money for the State.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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On that point, it does not only apply to the Minister's Department. It applies to others as well, in terms of housing and the Minister's other brief in terms of energy infrastructure. Does the Minister see the proposals that are coming in terms of planning reform being about resources for the planning system or the approach of the planning system? Obviously, there is an important balance to be struck there in terms of engagement, scrutiny and environmental impact. We have had the experience in the past of trying to shortcut the planning system and it returned nothing but problems.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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The Oireachtas joint committee of which Deputy O'Rourke is a member will have a critical job in the pre-legislative scrutiny of that important legislation. It is more a reorganisation than major reform because it recognises that the existing 2000 Act had been amended so many times that often it was contradictory, unintelligible or difficult for either someone opposed to a development or someone in favour of a development to work his or her way through it.

We have to tighten up the timelines around our planning system. The way I look at it, any reasonable assessment would say it takes approximately ten years to get a bus lane built in this country at present and that is not quick enough. In so many areas, it is incredibly expensive and incredibly problematic in every way.

The legislation cannot impede or restrict the access to justice and cannot undermine the European requirements for environmental protection. We will have a decision later on today, I understand, from the advocate general which doubles down on the need for that. It is a reorganisation rather than a complete reform.

If I was to say what is the most important element, I would say that legislation is vital. We need that quickly through the Oireachtas, from my perspective, because everything, not only in transport but in housing, energy and water, is in a real state of uncertainty because of the long timelines. However, the biggest issue, I would say, is the resourcing, particularly of the likes of An Bord Pleanála and local authorities. The Deputy is correct that we have to be careful we do not put everything through An Bord Pleanála on an emergency basis because the local authority system works and the planning system works. It is not that we have to throw it out. We have to make sure it works quicker. The biggest constraint in that regard is resources, particularly within An Bord Pleanála but also local authorities. The greatest challenge there we are seeing in so many different areas is it is hard to get people because our economy is at full tilt and all the companies that are involved in energy, water, transport, housing and waste infrastructure are looking for the same planners that we could use in An Bord Pleanála or in the local authorities. Resourcing is probably the most important constraint and is the biggest threat to the NDP.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Chair.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I have a few quick questions as well.

I want to bring up school buses. Officially, it is under the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, but we have had a few discussions about this here because the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, is keen on all things related to public transport. In fact, it probably should be under the Department of Transport. It would be more linear to have school buses and buses in all forms under one Department rather than spread across two.

I happen to think that the free school bus scheme is fantastic. There was a significant number of teething problems, which were well covered but the core concept of having free buses moving throughout the country morning and afternoon taking children from school is fantastic. It needs refining; not abandonment.

I used teach in a school that had 347 children. It was on a tertiary road where every ten minutes, one might encounter a car. However, at 9 a.m. and at 2.40 p.m., there were approximately 300 drop-offs done. It was bedlam. People invariably slowed down and pulled up for the five- or six-minute hug and "Goodbye". We used send emails out asking would they ever make the hug quicker and move on. There was all of the congestion that happens outside every school gate every morning.

I am cognisant it comes under the remit of the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, but would the Minister comment on that? By the way, that was Parteen village I referred to. It will take decades to build metro north and all of these fabulous capital infrastructure schemes but to have a bus going up a rural road taking 50 cars off it morning and evening is transformative. Unlike the bus lanes in Dublin, it does not take ten years to build. It takes a political decision, funding and the recruitment of a driver. Could the Minister entertain us a little with his thoughts on that?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Now we will have wandering into another Minister's territory. I hope the Acting Chairman does not mind.

I agree with the Acting Chairman. There would be sense in having the school transport system within the Department of Transport. This is not in any way criticism of the Department of Education but because what we do in the Department is transport. Also, I see potential benefits and synergies. We should be integrating school transport with the Connecting Ireland facilities mentioned earlier on or with some of our health service transport system. The integration of education, health, social welfare and other transport systems into the one service would make sense to me. That bus could be used in the morning but then go on to be the second run, etc. One of the potential benefits from the Department of Transport being involved is that we would be able to integrate it into the other bus services. That already happens. In Dublin, for instance, we do not have a school bus service. One gets on the bus. It would provide new options for people in rural Ireland. For example, it might allow those Connecting Ireland facilities to turn into five rotations rather than three.

I absolutely agree with the Acting Chairman on the second issue. Some 30% of our traffic in the morning is school children being driven to school. That is at significant cost to parents. It is not great for children, I would argue. It is nice to have one's children in the back of the car and chatting to them, but the freedom and independence one learns from being able to make one's own way to school is one of the benefits. There is also the difficulty outside the school gates where there are 300 cars and what that does in terms of safety. For so many different reasons, we need to reverse what happened. When I was going to school, fadó fadó in Éireann, most kids walked, cycled or took the bus.

Now most kids are driven. In some counties and areas, the issue is acute because we are creating a car dependency that is not in anyone's interest. The Connecting Ireland mobility plan is our number one priority because it has been designed in a way that it integrates different State services. I believe it should include education.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We are all "green" but for some of us the G is upper-case and for others it is lower-case. It is probably the latter in my case. I am probably more motivated by a wish to decongest roads and save time. Environmental reasons matter to me a lot but I probably have a more selfish motivation to achieve decongestion and speed things up in the mornings, getting through-flow on roads. All of these issues point back to the same causal factors and solutions, some of which have been articulated by the Minister. It makes no sense that a 50-seat school bus drops off children and then pulls away from the school gate, while people in the same village are writing emails to Deputies and councillors about getting a rural bus service. It seems illogical to them that a Bus Éireann bus pulls away from the school gate because it is on a school contract and cannot take on any passengers. Greater integration of services are needed. I would love to see this happen.

My colleagues on the committee will probably hate me for saying this, as I keep saying it, but five buses equal one train and carry the same number of people. Bus services can be provided much quicker because the same infrastructure investment is not needed. All that is needed is a good route and schedule, buses and drivers and off it goes. While I buy into all of the high-level stuff we want in the national development plan, it sometimes feels a bit overstretched and too far away from people. Certainly in the west, people feel these projects are nice when they come up to Dublin for a day but they ask what they do day to day for other areas. A bus route is transformative.

Late-night trains have been discussed by the committee a few times. Many gardaí, teachers, nurses and others are obliged for work reasons to be in the city centre but cost-of-living and salary constraints mean they cannot live in the city centre and they have to travel home every evening. Will the Minister consider putting in place later trains each evening? That is a decision for Irish Rail but has the Minister had dialogue with the company? It is a logical thing to do. Does the Minister have an update on reinstating catering services on trains? My wife is hoping catering stays off the train but I would love a muffin every now and again when I am travelling up to the Dáil.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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There is bad news for the Acting Chairman's wife in the newspapers.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I eat carrots and green vegetables as well.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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They are talking about vending machines and we know there will be no carrots in those vending machines. I would say the Deputy will be back to muffins or crisps.

We have seen a remarkable return to public transport in this country, ahead of other countries. Rail has been slower, mainly because it is used a lot for long distance commuting and people are not commuting the way they were, five days a week. That is part of the reason the rail service has been slower to come back. That pattern may become permanent and I expect it will. Blended working seems pretty much widespread in the Departments where I am working and it seems to be the same in the private sector. That may allow Irish Rail to reconfigure services. I agree with the Acting Chairman. Members of this House are constantly reminding me of the example of the Waterford rail service. I think the last train runs at 6.30 p.m. or 7 p.m. There is not even a late evening service people could catch at 8 p.m. or 9 p.m. Members make a case for a later service and I agree with them.

In the past two years, it has been slow and difficult to get civil engineering work done, primarily because of planning delays. However, we have been able to buy additional carriages, both main intercity carriages and new battery electric carriages. Iarnród Éireann should deploy those carriages and have a longer service list rather than everything being concentrated on the historic path, which was all about the commuting run and so on. The company will have the carriages to do that and the change in transport patterns may encourage it to do so. I certainly would encourage it to provide later services.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I think the Minister can be the saviour of the local rural pub. I had an epiphany moment across the street in Buswells Hotel last week when Uber briefed various Deputies on what it wants to do and what the Department is doing. The company was complimentary of hackney licensing, which it believes will have huge benefits. Following an announcement in January, hackney licences are to become available in another group of towns. Licensing is currently geared around population centres. I do not know if the Minister takes a tipple but certainly in the west rural pubs struggle midweek. They usually have a good Friday or Saturday night but even that is a struggle at the moment. Uber has suggested that the local postman or school teacher, and whoever else, could register with Uber and the Department to get a hackney licence. They could then be the person who on a Friday and Saturday night from 8 p.m. to 2 a.m. gets people home safely from the pubs. It could be the teetotaller in the community. This could be expanded much more. All it takes in a small village is one or two people who may already have day jobs. It would not necessarily put a taxi out of business. It would be looking at gaps in rural areas, rather than towns that have a taxi service. Thus far the licensing has been more about towns and villages than smaller population bases. It could be the saving of rural Ireland if we had a more expansive role in this.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I agree. The new hackney service we introduced in January is exactly what the Deputy has described. The hackney drivers are part time. It is not expected that any of them will be full time. Bookings would have to be made in advance. It can aggregate passengers and it is designed exactly as the Deputy described it. We have set out a number of villages across the country, particularly those with a smaller population which might not be able to afford or might not have the business for a full-time hackney operator. We are providing grant support of about €6,000 and Garda vetting and insurance are taken care of. It is designed to be part time and, as the Acting Chairman suggests, could be really transformative. It might be someone who wants just a few hours' work a day and an extra few bob. Those cars will be available at the times they are needed. The scheme is starting now. Right across the country, there are examples of villages that are using it. We will see how it is working and if it is successful, we will scale up.

Another project we are going to do is an addendum to the BusConnects project, looking at when passengers get to the endpoint on a bus route. We are looking at an on-demand app-based system where people would able to use the app to aggregate groups of people in rural and dispersed areas to get a further transfer, the last mile. That makes it economic. We are going to invest in this but it has not been announced yet. We are looking at three places in the country as test locations for a new mobile app, last-mile, local service.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I have to disagree with the Minister on one issue because I am not sure it is great to always have the kids in the back of the car. That statement should probably be struck from the record. I thank the Acting Chairman for his suggestion, which is a solid solution in relation to school transport. We know the service, which falls under the Minister's remit, has always been a mess. In fairness to Deputy Crowe, I should point out that his proposal is Sinn Féin policy. I am glad to see the Deputy moving in the correct direction.

If we go back to the Road Safety Authority and the 40 extra temporary testers for driving tests, the RSA seems to believe it will need 170 permanent testers. At this stage, why can we not sign off to recruit 40 temporary testers and the 40 full-time testers who will be required in future? Everything needs to be looked at and I know we were over and back on this. We were told the NCT issue would be addressed the end of quarter 2 this year. However, it will be the middle of 2024 before waiting times for driving tests are reduced to ten weeks.

That is built into the service level agreement, SLA, and is a significant time.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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It is. We were discussing this earlier and none of us was satisfied with the long delays in driver testing, NCTs and getting licences. With regard to testing, 18 months ago, the Road Safety Authority applied for 80 additional positions. We provided the first tranche of 40. It did not proceed with the second tranche but we are waiting for the final details to be able to sign off on it. I said earlier that it is not sitting on our desk but is awaiting a response from the Road Safety Authority. I am confident that we will get those additional 40 testing staff in and get the numbers back to a statutory limit for how long it takes.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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There is a wider issue in that we are looking for 40 temporary workers where the RSA thinks we need 40 permanent workers. It says it has that proposal in front of the Minister too. I think we have to do whatever we can to expedite that.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I agree. I do not think this will be a temporary phenomenon. Our population is growing dramatically.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I do not see the need changing. We have spoken before about rail and electrification. We have been over and back on the matter of the Dublin-Belfast Enterprise service. I welcome that the right moves are being made to deliver this on a yearly basis. I was somewhat worried about the timeline. Can this be delivered at some point this year? Does the Minister have any information on this to hand? I have taken a tangent from what we are meant to be discussing.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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The most important thing is that there is a restoration of the Assembly in the North. That would allow a minister to be appointed and allow us to conclude the rail strategy for the whole island, which we are waiting to do. It is for the whole island and includes such matters as links to the north west, which is a really important issue. It started with the Belfast-Dublin-Cork corridor, but it branched out from that. Some of the decisions we will face will be prioritisation of a whole series of recommendations. In my mind, while it is important to invest in Dublin, it is also important to invest to have better balanced regional development. Therefore, projects such as the western rail corridor, metropolitan rail in Limerick and Cork, and the reopening of the Wexford-Rosslare-Waterford line have real strategic importance for the broader, long-term economic development of the State.

The interesting thing that the strategic rail review will do is set out a menu of long-term developments. The real question will be what we do first. One could do everything if one had all the money and staff to do it, but those are both constraints. We need to make sure there is better balanced regional development. We are at risk of tipping over into the Irish Sea. There is nothing wrong with Louth or Dublin, but it will not work for Louth, Dublin, Meath, Kildare and Wicklow if all the development is on the east coast. We just will not be able to cope. We need to balance the country more.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I accept that with regard to regional development. Better connectivity to the North is finishing that piece of the east coast jigsaw that is absolutely necessary. I have seen this in a number of places. I thought the timeline was going to be longer. Are we talking about potentially delivering the hourly service this year?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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That is more of an operational issue for Irish Rail and the Enterprise service. I do not have the details of the exact timing of that. The bigger issue in my mind is the strategic rail review and deciding where we are going with it.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I agree with the Minister. We have had a number of interactions about the National Cyber Security Centre, which has probably grown from when the conversation started. Many people were probably unaware of its existence until the HSE cyberattack. I am wondering about our state of readiness and the conversations that need to be had between the NCSC and others, whether critical infrastructure companies or whoever else. In the last week, there has been talk of one of the technological universities coming under some sort of cyberattack. I am wondering about our state of readiness and capacity. Is it fit for purpose at this point? If the Minister has any further information on those issues, that would also be appreciated.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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It can never be totally fit for purpose because very skilled, nefarious elements are looking to break into networks, whether for ransom or other reasons. Munster Technological University was subject to such an attack this weekend. I was briefed by the Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smyth, about it earlier today. The college itself has been closed, which shows how debilitating it is when people cannot get access to a site. The National Cyber Security Centre showed its mettle during the attack on the health service. It was incredible with its 24-7 work with outside agencies and the health service to restore services. It has since seen a massive expansion, up to 43 positions, with a commitment to have 60 by the end of this year. It is in temporary headquarters at the moment but, along with our Department, will move into a new specially designed and built cybersecurity centre in Beggar's Bush at the end of this year. It is full of some of our best capability. People often come in from the defence sector with good connections with other trusted international intelligence sources. Its primary job is to work with our universities, health system and Government Departments to make sure they have the right protocols in place. I understand that Munster Technological University was well-equipped in that regard but it shows that one can never be complacent. It is a race in technological evolution to see who has the best protection or attack.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I agree. It is a race that one will never finish running. It is about ensuring we have all the required resources. I have an ancillary question. Have we looked into more directed spyware, which is used against high-value targets and has probably been used by a number of questionable regimes across the world? Pegasus is probably the most famous but there is also Predator. Unfortunately, part of the company involved in it is located in Ireland. There are particular issues relating to it that we need to look at. This committee has said we will look at it as part of our work going forward.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I am not knowledgeable about either of those systems.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is just something that I am putting on the agenda. In fairness, it has been put in the public domain by a number of journalists. The Pegasus issue was dealt with at a European Parliament level. This is obviously dangerous. Someone might target, for example, Deputy Eamon Ryan, take over his phone and, from their point of view, hopefully get information they could use against him. It is utterly anti-democratic and we need to look at it.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I agree.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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That was a broad range of questions. As ever, we are grateful. Does the Minister have any final comments to make?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I am glad Deputy Crowe lasted the course as Chair. I wish Deputy Joe Carey a swift recovery from his laryngitis.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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He had so much to say yesterday that he lost his voice.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I have a quick final question. We have been dealing with the ComReg legislation. Particular legislation was brought in. We all accept, in the world we live in, that we need to ensure that communication infrastructure is secure.

It is about making sure due diligence is carried out in respect of the information we are reliant on. I have no problem with us securing further assurances in that regard. It is also about making sure we are not suddenly going to give an order to some of our telecommunications companies to change their approach. In fairness to the Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smyth, he said he would not do that and indicated his intention related to future-proofing. Nevertheless, the telecommunications companies have a fear that certain components will need to be taken out. The supply chain for replacement components is not necessarily available from alternative companies but that needs to happen, even at a European level.

As I said, there are two issues, namely, ensuring due diligence is carried out as regards the information coming to us relating to these security worries and, beyond that, ensuring we will not create a disaster for ourselves and put communication infrastructure out of action for any period.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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That Bill is due to be debated in the Seanad this afternoon and the Minister of State is going to take it. This issue is the subject of a great deal of public debate at the moment. Our position has always been to follow the European rulebook. Going back to what I said earlier, when we are dealing with issues of technological regulation, the more we do it in line with European best practice, the more economic, secure and certain the process will be. On the advice of the National Cyber Security Centre, among others, and following public consultation, our intention is very much to adhere to European standards because it is at that scale that we can set standards that are robust and secure. Our legislation aims to place us in the centre of that European approach.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister does not share the worries of some of these companies whereby they might find themselves in that situation of having to remove component A, B or C.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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No, but this has not been a fast process. The legislation has been in train for some time and the consultation has been extensive. We will not know until the legislation has been passed what the requirements will be for some of the telecommunications companies. As I said, given we are following what has been clear European practice for a number of years, there should not be a surprise for any operator or developer in that regard.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister and his team.