Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 8 December 2022
Public Accounts Committee
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 19 - Exchequer receipts from National Lottery ticket sales
9:30 am
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome all present to the meeting. If attending in the committee room, attendees are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others against the risk of contracting Covid-19. Members of the committee attending remotely must do so from within the precincts of Leinster House. This is due to the constitutional requirement that, to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the place where the Parliament has chosen to sit.
The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness to the committee and is accompanied by Ms Ruth Foley, deputy director of audit at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.
This afternoon, we will engage with representatives from Premier Lotteries Ireland, PLI, the operator of the national lottery, in respect of the following chapter from the Comptroller and Auditor Generals Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2021: Chapter 19 - Exchequer receipts from National Lottery ticket sales. From Premier Lotteries Ireland, we are joined by Mr. Andrew Algeo, chief executive officer, and Mr. Cian Murphy, chief product and digital officer. They are both very welcome. I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off.
Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege, and the practice of the Houses as regards reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. As the witnesses are within the precincts of Leinster House, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty, as Cathaoirleach, to ensure that privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory to an identifiable person or entity, I will direct witnesses to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such directions.
Members are aware of their obligations under Standing Order 218, as well as the long-standing parliamentary practices.
Mr. Algeo is very welcome. As detailed in the letter of invitation, he has five minutes for his opening statement. I invite him to proceed.
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
I thank the Chair. Premier Lotteries Ireland welcomes the opportunity to address the committee on the Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2021, Chapter 19 - Exchequer receipts from National Lottery ticket sales. In 2014, PLI paid €405 million to the State for the licence to hold and promote the national lottery until 2034. This is subject to oversight by the Regulator of the National Lottery, who monitors our compliance with the licence and the National Lottery Act 2013, with extensive enforcement powers so that the integrity of the national lottery is safeguarded and the revenues generated for good causes are as great as possible. The regulator is also responsible for managing and controlling the national lottery fund from which funding for prizes, the amount remitted for good causes funding and the operator’s running costs are paid.
The national lottery was established by the State in 1986 as a State lottery. It has proven hugely successful, generating more than €6 billion for good causes throughout the country. Since PLI commenced operation in 2014, the national lottery has raised approximately €1.7 billion for good causes while increasing by half the annual prize moneys for players. Last year, the amount raised for good causes was €304 million, the highest level since the national lottery was established.
The effect of the licence is that as sales have grown, the amounts disbursed to prizes and good causes have grown by roughly the same proportion. The national lottery operates in an intensively competitive market where we face an array of competing products and platforms continually seeking to persuade the public to otherwise spend their discretionary income. Unlike the national lottery, however, our competitors do not return 90% of their sales to the community through good causes funding, prize funds and commission to local retail agents. As such, it is essential we promote our national lottery to ensure its continued success into the future, while operating under a strict advertising code of practice.
When the State designed our licence, a clear decision was taken to ensure that expired unclaimed prizes do not go to the profits of the operator but instead are repurposed to promote and sustain the national lottery. This approach reflects similar practices adopted across the globe, where state lottery licences recognise the criticality of promoting their national lottery and typically stipulate that promotion of the lottery is not left to the discretion of the operator, but instead is funded directly or indirectly from ticket sales. In the UK, for instance, the UK Government chose to fund the promotion of its national lottery through a combination of a set percentage of ticket sales, at 1.08%, and a portion of good causes funding. In the most recent yearly figures for the UK, this amounted to £160 million, or 2% of sales. In Ireland, the funding for promotions could have been taken from ticket sales or good causes funding but instead the State decided to use funds accumulated through expired unclaimed prizes. As the Comptroller and Auditor General notes in his report, the expired unclaimed prize money must be spent on the promotion of the lottery. It should also be noted that the proportion of prize funds going unclaimed has almost halved since PLI began operating the national lottery.
As the licensed operator of the national lottery, PLI shares the State’s objective to preserve, protect and grow the national lottery, with the interests of players and good causes at the core of our operations. The licence model operated by PLI with oversight from the regulator has proven successful, with ticket sales growing by an average of 7% per year since 2015, a turnaround from the previous seven-year period, during which ticket sales shrank by 20%. This reversal in fortunes of the national lottery must be seen in the context of operating in a fiercely competitive market and facing significant challenges to maintain ticket sales, including against largely unregulated competitors, many of which piggyback on the national lottery without making any contribution to good causes.
I am sure members will recognise the positive impact of national lottery funding in their local areas. Last year, 6,800 community groups, charities and sporting bodies throughout the country benefited from the €304 million allocated to good causes and that made a meaningful difference to their activities and operations.
I thank members for their attention. I am happy to take any questions they may have.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Mr. Algeo is very welcome. I ask him to provide a breakdown of the €124 million in expired unclaimed prizes since 2015. Do the prizes relate to scratch cards or the lotto draws? What is the proportion?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What is the proportion?
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
The sales of the products are laid out in the annual report, as stipulated in the licence, as between draw-based games, that is, the lotto, EuroMillions and other smaller games, and scratch cards and instant win games, IWGs.
The proportion of those sales is laid out in the accounts. I am unable to provide a breakdown-----
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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If Mr. Algeo is unable to provide a breakdown, I will move on because I have limited time and want to ask a number of questions. That is not to be rude but is how the committee works. The unclaimed prizes that end up going back to the lotto must be used for promotion of the lotto. The most recent figures we got stated that 98% was advertising and 2% was prizes. Why did PLI decide to do that? It seems a strange breakdown.
Has PLI done any work on problem gambling and the impact of the promotion by way of prizes, as opposed to advertising? Which is the most harmful?
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
It falls under the licence to PLI to decide how the promotional spend is allocated as between additional prizes and incremental marketing. When PLI makes that decision, we make it in keeping with the principles in the Act, which are to promote the long-term sustainability of the national lottery and maximise prizes for good causes. We have many years' experience of running additional prizes in lottery games. In August this year, for instance, there was an extra €1 million must be won prize every Saturday in EuroMillions. We have many years of understanding how much uplift in sales would come from such promotion.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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PLI gets more from advertising, essentially.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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My second question concerned problem gambling and harm. We are going through legislation at the moment which will restrict advertising before 9 p.m. We see blanket advertising from the national lottery at the moment. Has PLI done an analysis of problem gambling and harm, in terms of prizes as opposed to advertising?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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PLI has not done specific analysis of prizes as opposed to advertising, in terms of which is the most harmful.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Does PLI do mystery shopper inspections in relation to products being sold to people who are under 18 or does it rely on the retailer?
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
As part of the sales code of practice, which is an addendum to the licence under which we operate and which the regulator oversees, we carry out continuous mystery shopping exercises. The purpose of those is to ensure retailers understand the stipulations in the licence and code of conduct.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What kind of non-compliance has been found?
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
PLI provides transparency to the regulator in all matters and the regulator can see, for instance, the output of the activities of that. That is as stipulated in the licence. The licence also allows PLI to hold all information confidential which is not stipulated as necessary to be published. Consequently, I am not in a position to provide that.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The Comptroller and Auditor General recommends the regulator provide additional information to allow users of the account to see the key provisions of the lotto licence and that they are being complied with. What information is or was PLI not providing to the regulator that could assist?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Was there information that PLI was not providing?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Comptroller and Auditor General.
On the prizes allocated to what Mr. Algeo describes as "good causes" - or "necessary infrastructure", as I would probably say - what role does PLI have in that or is the money just disbursed to the Department and distributed on that basis?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Has PLI looked at how it is disbursed, even for advertising purposes?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Has PLI used Benefacts, for example, as a source to get that picture?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Does Mr. Algeo have an estimate of lottery sales forgone as a result of persons choosing the lottery option in the bookmaker's?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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That is how much people spend on that product, is it?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I come back to the percentages spent on advertising versus prizes. It is 98% versus 2%. Mr. Algeo said PLI makes that decision in line with the licence. Is that correct?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Does anything preclude PLI going with 80% advertising and 20% prize money?
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
Under section 6.9.2.1 of the licence, it comes to PLI to decide how to allocate it. The constraint is that some of it must be used for additional prizes but, other than that, as the Comptroller and Auditor General reported and successive regulators have viewed, it rests with PLI. PLI is minded to promote in the most effective way possible. Last year there were €11 million and the year before €13 million of additional prizes within the lotto and EuroMillions, so we think-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am talking about the unspent prize money. PLI has €124 million, of which 98% is spent on advertising and 2% on additional prize money.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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There is nothing precluding the national lottery from spending 60% on advertising and making 40% available for additional prize money.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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There is nothing. It is the national lottery's decision alone.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Since the money is unclaimed prize money, does Mr. Algeo not see the benefit of making it available as additional prize money? Instead, the national lottery spends 98% of the pot on advertising.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Do the witnesses see that this might irk people somewhat?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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No. We know about the 98% and the 2%. Can Mr. Algeo see that people watching who buy lotto tickets or scratch cards day in, day out, or week in, week out, might be irked by the fact that the national lottery spent 98% of the unclaimed prize money on advertising and a mere 2% on additional prize money?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Sorry, we are talking about this particular pot of money. That was my question.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We know about the other prize money. My question was about this particular pot of unspent prize money.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am sorry but when you attend a meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts, you have to answer questions.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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If I wanted further information, I would ask for it. My question was about a particular stream of unspent prize money. The national lottery spent 98% of it on advertising and 2% on additional prize funds, and Mr. Algeo accepts people might be irked by that.
The Comptroller and Auditor General published a report in September. Was Mr. Algeo embarrassed by that report?
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
We welcomed that report. It found that, universally, the lottery was running in accordance with its licence and that the effect of it was that prizes to players had risen by an amount in the order of 50% across the five years and the amount that went to good causes rose by an amount just north of 62%. Therefore, the effect of how the national lottery is run-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Algeo was not embarrassed by the report.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Algeo was not concerned that-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Algeo was not embarrassed by the report or worried it would do reputational damage to the national lottery and affect its profits. Was he not concerned by that at all?
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
We were not embarrassed by the report. There was an element of it that involved information we felt was confidential. It related to the amount of money allocated for marketing expenditure. As per a universal principle in companies, we do not publish our marketing expenditure. No company does. The reason is that, were we to do so, it would benefit others in this very large Irish media market, worth over €1 billion. An understanding of how we are marketing would give them information. Why does Dunnes Stores not give its information? It is because Aldi may like it. Why does Aer Lingus not give its information-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The regulator is a State body. That would be the reason.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That would explain that aspect of it. Was Mr. Algeo concerned the report would affect the national lottery's profits?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I suggest it would not be in Mr. Algeo's interest to continue with the practice pertaining to the pot of unclaimed prize money. It would certainly run the risk of putting people off the national lottery. Maybe he might consider that. Does he believe it is acceptable that he would ask the State's financial watchdog to withhold information?
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
In clause 20.6 of the licence, the State explicitly gave us permission to hold information as confidential. We release information to the regulator with that protection. The State recognised that a private operator will keep information confidential in the licence or contract with the operator. Like any entity, including State entities, there is information that the organisation holds as confidential. Marketing information is almost universally confidential
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Can I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General what his experience was of it? As a member of the Committee of Public Accounts, I am extremely grateful that he published the report in full in the interest of transparency and the public's need to know. Could he outline his experience of what we have just discussed?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Withholding information.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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One can understand how people feel if they realise unspent prize money is not going towards topping up prizes. That is why my first question was on whether Mr. Algeo was embarrassed by the report. The first impression one gets is that the national lottery did not want the information getting out into the public domain.
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
To be very clear, the reason we did not want it to get into the public domain is that we do not want to publish the marketing expenditure of the national lottery. That information is not available to any fast-moving consumer goods company. It is confidential universally in the commercial sector. For that reason, we keep all the information about our marketing expenditure and how it is split confidential. It is not in the interest of the national lottery to publish that.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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When you look at the breakdown, with only 2% going towards additional prize money, you can certainly see why it is not in the interest of the national lottery. The national lottery could have opted for a ratio of 60:40, 50:50 or 70:30 but decided to have 98% going towards promotion and advertising and 2% going towards topping up prizes.
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
The reason we choose to direct the majority of the promotional expenditure towards additional marketing as opposed to adding to the existent top-up prizes, which are considerable, is that the effect is to grow prizes, good causes and retailer commissions, as well as the operator's revenue, more effectively. That is-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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As Deputy Catherine Murphy said, with all that advertising the national lottery does not have any safeguards concerning gambling. It does not even have a mystery shopper, particularly regarding scratch cards but also regarding gambling. There may well be a particular issue with scratch cards. I am not referring to addiction, as such, but people certainly spend more money than they can afford on scratch cards. The national lottery spends 98% of the funding on advertising and does little or nothing in the way of helping with gambling addiction or anything like that.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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With regard to gambling, what are those measures?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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What is the transaction limit?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Someone could buy 30 in one day, or one hour.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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You can go in and buy ten bars of chocolate, come out, eat them and then go back in and buy another ten bars.
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
The limit is novel. We are not aware of any other lottery in the world - most lotteries sell scratch cards - that adopted the practice of imposing a scratch card limit. PLI adopted it because it has two benefits for the customer.
First, it creates a break between playing scratch cards. Player protection literature is clear, in that a break is a valuable thing.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. Algeo accept-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Hold on. It is difficult to take Mr. Algeo seriously on this. He is speaking about a break, but someone can buy ten scratch cards, go over to a desk, scratch the ten and then buy another ten. That is hardly putting limits on usage or doing anything to tackle possible gambling addiction where scratch cards are concerned. That is a joke.
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
The range of measures that the national lottery offers, some of which stem from the licence and some of which stem from further innovations that PLI has introduced over the past seven years, are extensive. The first and foremost – it is really the cornerstone of player protection for the national lottery - is that the national lottery can only sell a subset of products and is explicitly excluded from selling products that are found in mainstream gambling. That stipulation is in the licence. In addition, there are daily, weekly and monthly limits on play in the digital channel as well as self-exclusion limitation options. If someone pays a large-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Algeo will have time later, so he might go into those measures in detail then. Other Deputies wish to contribute, so Mr. Algeo might furnish to the committee-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We are over time.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Algeo can conclude.
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
I will provide another example. We close our website and our machines between 11 p.m. and 7 a.m. If someone wins a large prize online, we do not put the money back into his or her account. Instead, we send it to his or her house by cheque so as not to encourage recycling. After someone plays five games of digital scratch card online, a pop-up will appear saying that he or she has played five games. If someone is approaching the spend limit that we have asked him or her to apply in addition to the mandatory one, the system will inform the individual of that. I could go on for a long time, but the net-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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What happens after someone is informed he or she has already played five games? Is that person blocked?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Can people raise their limits?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Algeo. I have to-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I know there are-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Could we get the detail of those measures?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is that categorical?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I call Deputy Verona Murphy.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What is PLI's spend on player welfare?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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No. In millions, what is PLI's spend on player welfare? We know what it is on marketing.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How much does it cost PLI?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How much does PLI spend on player welfare?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I am not interested in what the licence stipulates, given that it also stipulates that PLI can choose to spend a percentage on marketing, in which respect PLI chose 98%. I have asked a straightforward question. How much is PLI's spend on player welfare? Is it €1 million, €2 million or €100 million?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Mr. Algeo stated that player welfare was important for PLI.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How much is the spend on player welfare? If Mr. Algeo does not have the figure now, can he provide it later?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Can Mr. Algeo imagine how much it would cost if PLI was-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What would the fine have been if the regulator had found PLI to be in breach of Schedule 9, paragraphs 6(b) and 6(c) of the licence? Forty-eight people self-excluded, yet PLI invaded their exclusions by providing them with information from the lottery less than 36 hours after they had self-excluded. Is that not correct?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I did not ask about that. I asked what Mr. Algeo believed the fine would be. None was issued, which is a mystery. If I am correct about that, then I cannot understand why we have a regulator. The regulator stated that she had the ability to fine but did not apply one. PLI got away with it.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What would a breach like that have cost PLI? If Mr. Algeo tells me he does not know, he is not credible, so he should not say that.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It is up to her. There was a breach. PLI presumably reviewed the situation with an eye to preventing it from recurring. From that review, Mr. Algeo is surely aware of how much it would have cost financially had a fine been imposed.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Is Mr. Algeo trying to tell this committee and the public watching us that, after a breach, PLI has no cognisance of what it would have cost financially had a fine been applied by the regulator?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Did PLI ask the regulator?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Does PLI take the breach seriously?
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
We take compliance with the licence seriously. When there is an incident of any type, we follow a five-step process. First, we tell the regulator immediately. Second, we stop the issue, whatever it is, from getting any worse. Third, we consider who has been affected and we take the appropriate action in terms of communication and anything else that is necessary. Fourth-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What action did PLI take?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How much did it cost PLI to fix the issue and ensure it would not recur?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Unable or unwilling.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Mr. Algeo does not know how much PLI spends on player welfare. Even the greyhound industry knows how much it spends, although whether that spend is enough is another question. In a highly addictive scenario, Mr. Algeo does not know what PLI does for people's welfare, to prevent gambling addiction and to ensure that those who have self-excluded are protected. Mr. Algeo knows that PLI has €122 million to spend on marketing - that amount is nearly 100% - yet he does not know how much it spends on player welfare. This signifies that PLI could not care less about the 48 people we know of who are at serious risk. Bearing in mind that, at our earlier session, we discussed how e-gaming was an illegal activity in Ireland, in that it is unregulated, PLI is lucky that it has the national lottery legislation. The people who are accessing the national lottery site are not so lucky, though, as it appears that PLI could not care less. It has no information about player welfare or what it does. It has five steps that it follows, but it does not know how much player welfare costs. If it were me, I would be very interested in knowing how much it cost and whether it was working.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Then how did the breach occur in the first place?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Saying that is not credible. If there was a breach, significant steps must have been followed to ensure it did not recur. There is always a cost.
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
In all breaches, there is a cost in first working out who it has affected and taking the appropriate action.
There is enormous cost in getting to the proper root cause and then finally there is a cost of fixing it. Those projects are taken as a priority above any other project that we have and-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Having had the breach, can Mr. Algeo see a significant financial hole anywhere that was used to ensure it does not happen again?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Everybody working for PLI was put into remedying-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Have there been any breaches since?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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My question requires a "Yes" or "No" answer. Have there been any breaches since?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Were any breaches or possible breaches reported to the regulator since?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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My question requires a "Yes" or "No" answer.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I have asked a straightforward question. Have any breaches been reported to the regulator since this breach was found? I would like a "Yes" or "No" answer.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Has anything been reported to the regulator?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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To be helpful to the Deputy, has the regulator had any discussions with representatives of the national lottery about any breaches since the breach we are discussing?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am not asking Mr. Algeo to disclose individual pieces of information. What the Deputy is trying to ascertain is since that breach, have there been other similar breaches?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That is not an answer.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We require a "Yes" or "No" answer. The Deputy has asked a straight question.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Clearly, given the fact that Mr. Algeo-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The regulator clearly has questions to answer in that case. It is obvious that the lottery has had similar breaches but Mr. Algeo is afraid to say it. That is all right. We will bring representatives of the regulator back before the committee. This is a ridiculous scenario. Mr. Algeo has made no effort to give the committee a flavour of how the national lottery regards the welfare of people. All the good that is done by the national lottery is being negated by its neglect for the welfare of those who are operating a system. It is online and it is a highly addictive activity. As I said this morning, families have been decimated by this activity. The safeguards are the only things we can rely on to ensure we can retain it as legalised gaming activity. I am not afraid of gambling but I do not have an addictive nature. I can buy a scratch card, go home and forget about it for another month. As Deputy Munster pointed out, some people buy ten scratch cards and then buy another ten. That is a welfare issue. What safeguards are in place? How much is being spent on them? That must be known for legislators to endorse what the lottery is doing.
Has Mr. Algeo seen the Indecon report?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Will its recommendations be implemented in full?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Does Mr. Algeo agree with the recommendations?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That is true in respect of many things.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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The Indecon report set out a number of policy options for reform which, if implemented, could result in a far more transparent allocation process. That is the recommendation in the report. Has the national lottery engaged with State agencies in that regard? Does Mr. Algeo envisage that there will be engagement?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Does the national lottery not have any input into how funding is subsequently allocated? Does it give an overall view in that regard? There would be benefits for both sides. There would be benefits to the lottery in terms of its marketing profile. There would also be benefits for the community.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I will move to another issue that relates to the shareholding and the structure involved. I understand that the Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan, An Post and the An Post pension plan are involved. Is it possible to get a breakdown of how that is divided and the size of share that each group has?
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
I believe that is matter of public record available from the Companies Registration Office. The breakdown is that An Post has 11%, another 11% is for the An Post pension plan and 88% is owned by the Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan. There is some rounding error in that but it is directionally correct.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Is that going to change at any stage?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I understand that PLI drew down a loan from its parent company at an interest rate of 9%. Why was the interest rate set so high when borrowing could have been at a far lower rate? Because it was not, the net sum available after expenses are paid is smaller.
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
I thank the Deputy. The proceeds of ticket sales are split between good causes, prizes and retailers, and 10% goes to the operator. The operator has operating expenses and must fund its balance sheet. The main item in that respect is the €405 million it paid to the State for the licence. How the entity funds its balance sheet is a matter for the board but in every way, it complies both with company law and-----
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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That interest rate of 9% is very high. That was done at a time when interest rates were not as high. I know they are going up at this stage but 9% is a very high interest rate.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Camelot Global Services Ltd. provided systems implementation. What support services are included?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Does the €9 million involved relate to back-up support?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Is Mr. Algeo satisfied that the technology available is adequate? He spoke about a growth in sales. Does Mr. Algeo expect that to continue? Are the systems in place sufficient to deal with that growth in sales?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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On this whole issue of cybersecurity, is Mr. Algeo satisfied there is enough protection to make sure there will not be an interference with the whole system?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I wish to go back to one other issue on sales outlets for the national lottery. What is the margin it has now in relation to sales?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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On that 6%, is there then backup support for sales outlets? Say, for argument’s sake, a particular issue arises for a news agency or a distributor of PLI's product, where, for instance, it becomes aware of and has a concern about people who are addicted to gambling. Does it have the backup support available to it regarding how to deal with that issue?
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
Yes. There is a code of practice for sales, which is published and is an addendum to the licence. It includes many aspects of the player protections in which PLI supports the retailer. There is a long list of “dos” and a long list of “do nots” backed up by mystery shopping, as well as training for all staff and the collateral necessary to display information relating to player protection in every single retail outlet.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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If a retailer runs into a difficulty for one reason, is there someone with whom he or she can discuss how to deal with that issue?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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In the past 12 months, have retailers contacted PLI? First, are they aware that service is there? Second, what level of contact has been made by retailers over the past 12 months?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Why are they not published?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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There could be a situation where there is only one contact made in the year. Is the level of backup support adequate? The retailer might feel that it is not adequate. It would be interesting to see what level of support there is for retailers. If retailers are not contacting, it then means they do not believe the service is adequate.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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When Mr. Algeo referred to unusual activity, what is he-----
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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PLI’s backup support team then would contact the retailer.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Will Mr. Algeo indicate how often, on average, this arises per annum?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Are we talking about 100, 200 or absolutely nothing? If we do not see figures, we have no evidence the backup support is working.
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I welcome Mr. Algeo and Mr. Murphy and I thank them for coming in. At the outset, I got a marketing call a few months ago in relation to the national lottery. It was not anything to do with PLI, was it?
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I might just help Mr. Algeo. It was me and, I think, the Chair-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Three members of the committee.
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Three members of the committee were contacted.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Deputies Carroll MacNeill and Dillon and I. It was a few weeks ago.
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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It was longer; it was perhaps two months ago. It was certainly this term in the period around the publication of the report.
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
Once a year, PLI has carried out market research among good causes, retailers and politicians to establish the perception of the national lottery. We have done that for three years. We started the process in October of this year and it lasted a month. We are not aware of who is contacted, but we get anonymised-----
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry to cut across Mr. Algeo-----
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I do not mean to be impolite. Our time is so tight. From our perspective, the report was issued and three members of the Committee of Public Accounts were contacted. We raised it with the regulator two weeks ago, so I think Mr. Algeo has been on notice that we will ask the question and are curious about the source of it. We have other things to discuss, but it was a source of concern to us that we were contacted in what seemed like a-----
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Since this came up at the Committee of Public Accounts two weeks, has Mr. Algeo checked with his market research company to see if it did that?
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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The purpose of this report is to increase transparency and Mr. Algeo is here so we can get his view on that on foot of the Comptroller and Auditor General’s report. The 98%-2% advertising top-up is a source of real concern to us for a couple of reasons. It piques our interest very much and is of real concern. First, I think it is fair to say the committee feels there is a sharpness to it. Second, we feel it would not have been apparent to the players of the national lottery without the Comptroller and Auditor General’s report. Third, we want to understand the proportion of advertising that is being used from top-up funds versus other advertising and how that works overall. On an annualised basis, it looks like €17 million of the unclaimed prize money fund, which is unclaimed prize money, is used for advertising and €350,000 is used for top-ups. It piques our interest generally in relation to advertising, not just that funded money. What is PLI’s justification internally for using more than 98% of that in that way?
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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So essentially that was the best commercial decision PLI could make, having regard to all of the different things it does.
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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That is why the rest of the advertising becomes so interesting to us. We wonder why PLI needs to rely on that unclaimed prize money to the extent it has been. How does that relate to the rest of its advertising spend? We see very considerable advertising. There is the marketing information. I might just check the Comptroller and Auditor General. It is not apparent to us from the accounts how much is being spent on advertising and Mr. Algeo said it is commercially sensitive. From the Comptroller and Auditor General’s perspective, was it apparent from the Premier Lottery Ireland accounts or did he have to rely on the information coming through the regulator?
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Advertising in respect of gambling is of considerable interest to the Oireachtas at the moment because of the gambling legislation before the Houses, which will be familiar to the witnesses. Indeed, I have to take this opportunity to correct the record. I received correspondence from PLI this morning. I had been speaking to the Gambling Regulation Bill on Second Stage in the Dáil on Tuesday. We have talked about how I have been noticing advertising since our engagement with the national lottery regulator, and I spoke about how I had seen a Christmas millionaire advert, where somebody is having difficulty passing over an envelope. I said I had seen it during "The Late Late Toy Show", but that was in error because it was not during that show. Helpfully, Premier Lotteries Ireland sent me all the advertising detail to show the advert had not been aired during the toy show, but I will explain why I had thought that was the case. I had recorded the toy show and was watching it with my seven-year-old son at, say, 6 p.m. on Sunday. I was sitting with my child watching the recording of it but we turned it off because it was boring and we decided to watch the soccer instead. It was during the soccer, at a child-friendly TV time in the evening, that I saw the advert again and again. That is where I made the mistake and I am happy to correct the record.
Helpfully and for the benefit of the committee, PLI wrote to me and I will put on the record of the committee what it said because it is important. It attached a spreadsheet of adverts for the show and the repeats. The letter states, "We take our commitments on responsible advertising very seriously", and refers to an advertising code of practice it has in place with the regulator of the national lottery. It was the first I had heard of that code but why would I have known about it? In fairness to PLI, it outlined it had directed RTÉ not to air those adverts during the toy show and to ensure it would be in compliance with its own advertising code with the regulator. The mistake I made was that I had not considered it amounted to responsible advertising, which is why I was watching the show with a child.
There are many different things going on in the Oireachtas relating to advertising and that is why the witnesses are being asked all these questions about it. Obviously, marketing is a key piece of their work. Because of all these concerns, will they set out the proportions, insofar as they can, that relate to the €17 million used annually to the funds from PLI’s own base marketing resources? Will they set them out insofar as they can within their commercially sensitive concerns?
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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That is fair enough. It is up to us as legislators, therefore, to ensure that will change, given I have a concern about the scale of advertising and gambling. Representatives of the gambling industry appeared before us in the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice to discuss a range of these points, which are by no means exclusive to the national lottery. We need to know what the spend is, what the distribution of that spend is and how it relates to other issues. I appreciate Mr. Algeo cannot answer my questions because it is a commercially sensitive matter and I totally respect that in regard to commercial organisations, but we have a different set of difficulties as legislators.
Turning to player welfare, approximately how many people work in Premier Lotteries Ireland?
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I know that Mr. Algeo could not provide a cost to Deputy Verona Murphy regarding the spend on player welfare, but how many people are dedicated exclusively to that? I appreciate that many people contribute in lots of different ways, but is anyone dedicated exclusively to it?
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
As the Deputy said, many people are involved, in that everybody who creates a product, a website, an app or an advertising campaign is expert in how player protection applies to his or her part of the business, not least because we have to be under the terms of both the licence and the various codes of practice. As regards people who interact with players, if that is a way of narrowing it down-----
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I might give an example. When other parts of the gambling industry were being represented before the justice committee, we asked the same questions of the representatives of Flutter and they were able to tell us the figures. While they used United Kingdom figures, they subsequently provided to the justice committee a subset of them that were dedicated to player welfare concerns within Flutter, what they did to address them and what proportion that related to. They had a team dedicated to that, albeit not in a sufficient way as far as we were concerned. Similarly, a team must be involved in, for example, notifications to the regulator of any difficulties with the licence.
Mr. Algeo stated that was the first step of a five-step process that PLI takes. Obviously-----
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Is it a regulatory person who does that?
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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On the player welfare side, I think 48 people were contacted subsequent to their self-exclusion. Are people within the national lottery to dedicated helping or managing that? I appreciate Mr. Algeo does not want to trigger them in any way, as the regulator contact said, but who is dedicated to the follow-up of finding the system error, fixing it and making contact with gambling support groups? What does PLI do there?
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
The senior leadership team meets whenever there is an incident that may turn out to be material. That is the eight most senior people in the organisation, including Mr. Murphy and me. We go through those five steps. The amount of resource that is necessary to address the issue is impossible to tell at the beginning and becomes clearer as we go into it. In the end, with the lottery, most things are implemented through technology change, so it will involve weeks, if not months, of work and multiple suppliers, as well as project managers, quality assurance, QA, specialists and test people. That is the nature of our lottery.
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate Mr. Algeo cannot talk about communications with the regulator but has PLI had to invoke that process within its organisation in, say, 2022?
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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PLI has notified the regulator, therefore.
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Nothing of the nature we were talking about, however, has been notified to the regulator in regard to self-exclusions.
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I was referring to the notifications of issues about which PLI should notify the regulator. Of course, she has her own capacity to make assessments as well. Deputy Verona Murphy asked about the upper limit on a fine that might issue or about the withholding of funds that might be applied by the regulator. From a commercial perspective, what is the upper limit of the sum to be withheld that the regulator can impose? The phrase she used was "withholding funds". What is the upper limit of that?
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Presumably, that is something Mr. Algeo, with his senior management team, builds into PLI’s risk management in some way, taking account of its capacity to have that sort of funding withheld.
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I fully understand that. The question I am trying to get to might be better directed at the regulator, whom we may again invite to appear before the committee. She confirmed to us on the previous occasion that there have been no such withholdings, if that is the phrase, ever within the terms of the licence. While the upper limit, therefore, is €20 million and PLI works in the way it does, which I understand, there have been breaches but nothing has happened. I am not being facetious, but there is probably no reason to bank in the risk profile of a €20 million fine when the regulator has not appeared to want to use her power, even for a breach we regarded as much more serious than she may have regarded it because we thought it was a case where the withholding of funds would be appropriate. These are observations rather than fair questions to Mr. Algeo, but they go back to our earlier dialogue with the regulator.
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
We are very mindful of the considerable powers the regulator has, up to the point of rescinding the licence.
As a result, we put enormous resources into operating the national lottery in a way that minimises the risk of licence breach. Unfortunately, from time to time, things go wrong. We deeply regret that when it happens and we work through the five steps I spoke about to address them.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Does PLI pay out dividends to its shareholders every year?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I believe the Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan fund owns 78% of the company. I think Mr. Algeo said 88% by mistake.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I note that. A loan was taken out from PLI's parent company at an interest rate of 9%. That was in 2014. Is that correct?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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When I looked at the summary of the 2018 accounts, and some material attached to them, I was puzzled as to why a loan would be taken out at a 9% interest rate in 2014. If I had wanted to, I would have been able to get a loan at 0.5% interest in 2014. Other entities would also have been able to do that if they had wanted to. Why did the board draw down a loan at a 9% interest rate? It is extraordinarily high.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Can Mr. Murphy comment on the 9% interest rate?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is not the question I am asking. Does Mr. Algeo not find it extraordinary that an entity would take out a loan at a 9% interest rate at a time when interest rates were at rock bottom or very low? Commercial decisions have to be taken. Mr. Algeo is in the commercial world and knows how it works with the laws of economics. One must try to get the best price. Why did the company go for a loan with a 9% interest rate?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There is a 4% loan as well.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. Algeo find that figure for the interest rate very high or burdensome?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. Algeo find it an extraordinary rate of interest? This is what I am trying to get to. Money could have been borrowed a lot cheaper at that time.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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At that point, it would not have been appropriate given that interest rates, even on short-term loans, were not 9%. This is the point I am trying to make here. Was Mr. Murphy in the company in 2014?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Does anybody know why this was done?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Can we just find out? The outworkings of this are that almost €25 million in interest was paid to related parties in 2020. Is that correct? To be exact, €24.7 million was paid in interest to related parties in that year.
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
If it is helpful, I might give a summary statistic. Perhaps that would help. The cash returns to shareholders from PLI since 2015 are in total €173.6 million, or 42% of the €405 million the shareholders invested. This means that 35% of the way through the licence the shareholders have received back 42% of their money.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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They are also receiving 9% interest on the loan.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Whatever way it goes, it is money in the bank. Along with what Mr. Algeo has outlined regarding what the parties are receiving annually, there is also this interest payment on the loans. In 2020, that was €24.7 million. I would count that as a very good return. A lot of people with money on deposit would love to know where they could get 9% interest. It would seem to me to be inflated. It appears to me and others who have looked at this that it is very beneficial for Premier Lotteries Ireland and the parent company for that transaction to be taken and that loan to be taken out. Does Mr. Algeo agree it is a very favourable position for the parent company to be in receipt of 9% interest? Does he agree that is a favourable position to be in?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It increases the transfer of cash, though. Let us not beat around the bush with this. It increases the transfer of cash from Premier Lotteries Ireland and the lottery system to the parent company in the form of this 9% interest rate. Mr. Algeo has not clarified whether he believes this to be an extraordinarily high rate. Anyone who has any knowledge of basic economics would look at this and say it is an extraordinary figure.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am telling Mr. Algeo it is extraordinary. I am not a qualified financial adviser but based on common sense, why would I take out a loan at 9% if I could get one for 1%, 2% or 3%? This is a relatively long-term loan. It is an extraordinary transfer of cash that seems to be happening along with the dividends that are being paid. This seems to be an extraordinary transfer, which seems to benefit the parent company.
I will move on to advertising. I have been following this carefully. Mr. Algeo has said he is restricted in what he can say due to commercial sensitivities. Of the complaints received by the Advertising Standards Authority for Ireland, ASAI, in one year, 40% were related to the national lottery. Was Mr. Algeo aware of that?
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
The ASAI was good enough to contact us after the last hearing and informed us that of the complaints received in 2022, the relevant figure related to the national lottery was 3%. That summed to 13 complaints, which was up from six complaints in the previous year. It is 3%. That is what the ASAI has informed us.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is okay. The advertisement make the claim over and over again that "90% of National Lottery sales [are] returned to communities". I looked at this, starting off with the ticket sales. We took the year 2021 and also looked back over a number of years. What actually goes back into good causes works out between 27% and 28.5%. In 2021, the national lottery had ticket sales of more than €1 billion. When the prizes are taken out, the figure is nearly €600 million. The gaming revenue is left, which is €168 million, of which 65% goes to the Exchequer and 5% goes to retailers in commission. There is no argument with that, although that figure may be 6%.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The regulator is funded by €1.5 million and the operator gets €103 million. I have asked members of the public what they believe that means. I do not claim this is scientific but I asked people locally what they thought about the 90% claim and they took it to mean that 90% of all money from ticket sales goes into the community and good causes, as in various environmental, charitable, community groups, organisations, projects, etc. That was their firm belief based on the advertising. That is what they take the national lottery advertising to mean. Does Mr. Algeo accept that there is a problem of credibility with that advertising?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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PLI is including prize winners and retailers, that is, the supermarkets or wherever the tickets are sold. In my innocence, from the way the advertising is pitched, I took it to mean that 90% was going to community groups and various projects. That is what I believed until recently. I would not take that much interest in the matter but I was surprised to find, when we got the figures and started crunching them, that we were really looking at a figure of between 27% and 28.5% or a little over one quarter of the proceeds from ticket sales and all other sales by the national lottery going to projects and good causes. That is the advertising piece. It is good that the funds go to these projects and obviously I would like to see more going to them. Does Mr. Algeo accept the point that it is little over a quarter that goes to those groups?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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If he accepts that, does Mr. Algeo not think that the advertising should be changed?
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
From time to time, the national lottery has run advertising to say that almost 30%, or 28%, of ticket sales go to good causes. The advertising campaign that I believe we are talking about was a 90% campaign which stated clearly, and the ASAI and the regulator agreed, that what we meant by the "community" in those advertisements were, as the ad stated, good causes, retailers and prize winners. Those were the findings.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is a very broad interpretation and I find it misleading. I do not claim it was scientific but I asked a number of people who play the lottery what they thought the claim in the advertising that 90% of the proceeds from ticket sales goes to the community meant. They told me they thought it went to local organisations, sports clubs, environmental projects and so on. Is Mr. Algeo aware that unclaimed prizes in the British lottery go to good causes after 180 days?
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
Yes. In a twist, the good causes then fund advertising, such is the structure of lotteries. Yes, unclaimed prizes go to good causes and then the regulator decides how much of good causes funding does not go to good causes at all and is used for advertising instead. That figure in total related to about £160 million in the most recent figures.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I hear complaints from people who play the lottery that since the two extra balls were introduced, it has become much harder to win and there are far fewer winners. Whose idea was it to add the extra balls? Was that the lottery's, the regulator's or some research company's idea?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I was anxious to know where that idea came from. When the prize went to €19 million because the jackpot had not been won, it had rolled over 51 times. That is an extraordinary amount. The public was getting a bit annoyed, to put it mildly. A decision was taken to change and put a limit on it. Was €19 million the must-win limit?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is the maximum limit?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It can roll over five more times and does not have to be won the following week.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Did the decision to limit the prize fund come from the company?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Did the company think there was a credibility issue at that point?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I can say the excitement went out of it after about 20 or 30 weeks. People were not as excited then. There was a lot of frustration. I picked it up and I do not take much interest in these matters because I am not a gambler, or my gambling is extremely limited. There was a credibility issue with the public. Did the company pick that up?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I call Deputy Carthy.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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May I come in as I have to go in five minutes?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Briefly, yes.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How much bonuses were paid to employees?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The bonus figure in the accounts is €2.6 million. I am wondering how many employees it was paid to. I am not asking for their names.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Mr. Algeo is not willing. A figure of €2.6 million was spent on bonuses. If there was a top ten, does Mr. Algeo know how many they were paid to? That is standard information. How many people in Premier Lotteries Ireland were they paid to?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Did everyone in the company get a bonus?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Who is PLI competing with? I was not aware that we had another national lottery company being operated by anybody in the country. Who is it competing with?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Is Mr. Algeo for real? Is he really putting it out in the Committee on Public Accounts that this is because somebody else might seek one of his employees? That is not commercially sensitive. I did not ask for a job description. I asked how many employees were paid bonuses. I do not care whether they were sweeping the floor or running the company.
Does he know or does he not?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I will tell the Chair something now-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Can I just ask a question? Obviously, I do not expect Mr. Algeo to give-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Nobody is expecting-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Hold on for a second Deputy. I would not expect Mr. Algeo to say he knows Joe Bloggs, who is a technical engineer, got such an amount as a bonus. One question the Deputy asked is whether everybody in the company gets it. A "Yes" or "No" to that would be helpful.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Unwilling or unable?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I cannot see how that is commercially sensitive.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What does Mr. Algeo mean by saying he has a confidentiality agreement with his employer? What has that got to do with it?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Why is Mr. Murphy here?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Did he get a bonus?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How then is it published in the accounts that €2.6 million was paid out in bonuses?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That is the figure, and so what I am trying to ascertain-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The full salary.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Okay. Let us put it another way. I would call it bonuses, given the amount. What I am trying to ascertain is how many employees there are in that figure. How many are there?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Now that is a joke. This is the Committee of Public Accounts and a little respect would not go astray. How many employees are covered within that figure? I am looking for a number within that figure.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That is absolutely a disgrace, Chair.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy is drawing a blank.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It is a disgrace. I have another question.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We will let the public make their minds up on that.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It is a disgrace. We need transparency, trust and confidence-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Absolutely.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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-----and we are not getting it. I have one more question. Where is Premier Lotteries Ireland's marketing expenditure accounted for in the accounts?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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There is not what?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Does the Comptroller and Auditor General agree with that?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Are we on par on a competitive footing? That is the excuse being used for keeping it confidential.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
That I cannot say because I am not familiar with marketing or advertising spends. One would certainly see figures for advertising and marketing in a public sector body. It would be obliged to provide that level of detail but there is a much greater level of breakdown because it is public money and the users of the accounts, which include members of this committee, as well as overseeing Departments and so on, expect a public sector body would give much more detail about its expenditure.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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They are distinct from that perspective. I thank Mr. McCarthy. Was he able to ascertain the expenditure from the accounts?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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All right. This is a licence that has been granted courtesy of the people. Two things occur to me.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Some of these issues were raised at the time-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I think last week Chair, as you know-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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-----back in 2014.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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-----we had the huge issue of the banking bonuses being received. There seems to be an exorbitant level of remuneration here and we cannot ascertain what it is.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The level of detail is disappointing.
Deputy Carthy is next.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Chair. I welcome our guests and thank them for being here.
To put it in language everybody can understand, were a person to spend €10 on national lottery products, how much of it would go to the different dimensions, those being good causes, prizes, retailers and the operator?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. That is basically 90:10 in terms of the operator because that is where its 10% comes from.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does the €1 to the operator cover all administration and operating costs before a profit is derived? That is, all salaries come out of that €1 and all advertising outside of what we have already discussed, meaning all general advertising, comes out of the €1 too.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That includes interest rates and loan payments.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, so when we say these are the percentages, these are the gross percentages coming down. There is nothing that has to be skimmed off the top for capital costs or anything else like that.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Therefore, they all come out that. What is the percentage of prizes that are unclaimed?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Thus, we could say it is between 3% and 5% on average.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, but there have been years where is was over 5%.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. If we go back to the €10, what proportion might the unclaimed prizes be? Would it be 10 cent or 50 cent?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, it is 1.6%.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, and sometimes it is a bit higher.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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All right, but if we take the assertion of 90% going into the community at face value, it is actually a little less than 90% because 1.6% is money spent on advertising by the operator.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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However, it also includes prizes that are not claimed and are subsequently expended on advertising.
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
The licence is very clear that once money has been allocated by the regulator to the prize account and remains unclaimed for a period of time, which is over three months in the case of most games, it then ceases to be prize money and becomes promotional money.
I think the Deputy's question is focused on effectively whether the figure for prizes Mr. Algeo is counting is for expected prizes or actual prizes. That might be the nub of it. In the 90% is Mr. Algeo counting expected prizes before unclaimed prizes are paid out or actual prizes after the unpaid prizes have been removed?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Let me clarify, going back to the original point. Mr. Alego is saying approximately €5.60 out of €10 is allocated for prize money.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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But that includes unclaimed prizes.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Therefore, to clarify my point, 1.6%-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Sixteen cent does not go back into the community. Because that is unclaimed, it goes back into the lottery's account, so the amount that is available to the operator is not actually €1 but €1.16.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is clear, but it also does not go back into the community, even by the very broad definition the lottery has ascribed as going back into the community because it does not go in actual prize money, it does not go to good causes and it does not go to retailers. It goes to a separate account. Even if we were to take Mr. Algeo's basis that all these things are money going back into the community, the figure is less than 90%.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is not.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The lottery's advertising does not say 90% of the money is allocated to go back into the community. It says 90% goes back into the community and then, after the wee asterisk at the bottom, it states briefly that it includes prizes blah, blah, blah, but it is actually not the case that the full 90% goes back even, as I said, to that because it does not go to prizes. It is actually unclaimed. It does not go to good causes and it does not go to retailers. It goes into a separate fund. I am not saying there is anything illegal or untoward in how that is allocated, but it does mean that the advertising is not correct.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is just a yes-no question. For absolute certainty, Mr. Algeo accepts that the 90% includes unclaimed prizes.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Including those that are subsequently unclaimed. It is just a yes-no question.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is fine.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The overall figure of 90% includes money that is not actually subsequently spent on unclaimed prizes.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, so what I have said is accurate.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That includes money-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am interested to hear Mr. Algeo say that the ASAI contacted the lottery after our engagement with-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Did it contact the Committee of Public Accounts?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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No, not that I am aware of.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is it not strange that an advertising standards authority would contact somebody who was not present at the Committee of Public Accounts but not contact the committee? It would be useful if we were to seek clarification and a copy of that correspondence and also if we were to inform the Advertising Standards Authority of Ireland, in case it is not aware, that the 90% includes unclaimed prizes.
Going on to the issue of the unclaimed prizes, we know that about €122 million was unclaimed and the lottery has obligations in that regard. Will Mr. Algeo just remind us what those obligations are as to how that money can be spent?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I was in the car and was following the proceedings earlier. I will go back to my €10 analogy. I am the eldest in my family and when I was young it could happen that an aunt or an uncle would give me a tenner and tell me to make sure to get something for my little brother. I used to have a system whereby I would give him a euro and, therefore, I had lived up to the condition of the gift. The lottery has a similar method because it is told that it has to give some towards reclaimed prizes, but it is actually giving 20 cent. The lottery makes ten-year-old me look very generous.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Pounds or euros, Deputy?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It would have been pounds back in the day.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I would have thought so.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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What type of pound?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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If you got a tenner in sterling, it was a good day.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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South of the Border.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In fairness, the lottery is taking the piss in what it is giving towards top-up prizes. It is going to the absolutely bare minimum. Is that not fair to say?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am not saying the lottery does not.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There are two ways the lottery can spend the money. As a matter of interest, would there be anything stopping the company if it decided to allocate a portion of that money towards good causes? Is it so rigid that it has to be spent on top-up prizes or marketing, or is there a flexibility such that if it decided that it would apportion some of that towards good causes, it could do so?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I call Deputy McAuliffe.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I do not want to rake over what we have just discussed, but this is simple. The reason an advertisement is taken out is to try to promote or to create a positive feeling towards an organisation, and it is clear that this advertisement has not done that. Does Mr. Algeo believe that the advertisement has been destructive to the image and reputation of the national lottery?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Algeo is returning to the issues of allocation. That was not the question.
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
No, the absolute amounts. All stakeholders have benefited from a situation in which national lottery sales had fallen by 20% in the previous seven years to a situation where, for instance, good causes returns are up 62% in those seven years. There are many parts to running the lottery, promotion being only one of them, but promotion is a very important part of it.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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That is a separate question. I imagine that the thinking behind including the line that 90% went back to communities was to ensure that people felt that the national lottery was a positive thing. Clearly, however, that advertisement has backfired in a massive way, given the level of speculation and the fact that the witnesses are before the Committee of Public Accounts discussing it. It is not a trick question. Does Mr. Algeo believe that the advertisement has backfired?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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How does Mr. Algeo account then for being before this committee debating the nature of a claim in an advertisement, rather than being here to discuss the positive work being done?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely, I accept that. Many people, though, who participate in the national lottery see the positive work being done in this regard. Many people also question it as just being another form of gambling and are sceptical about it. As a basic marketing analysis of what happened, surely putting together a radio advertisement that results in Deputies and Senators in these Houses questioning its very nature must underline a massive failure on behalf of the national lottery to promote the activity the company is involved in and the credibility of the organisation? Am I missing something in asking this question?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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The very fact that Mr. Algeo is here is a big-----
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
We are here to answer questions on the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report and not on an advertising campaign. The advertising campaign, however, is accurate in the view of our regulator and of the Advertising Standards Authority of Ireland, ASAI. Awareness of the impact the national lottery has on the community has risen in recent years. I have no evidence to suggest there is an issue about it.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps that was a better line to use than the one about 90%. I thank the Chair.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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On the survey done by Red C, and this question slipped my mind earlier, I and two other members of the committee received these calls in the context of detailed questioning regarding the national lottery and our attitudes towards it. I know that Premier Lotteries Ireland will not be able to find out the responses given by each individual, but does the company seek a breakdown of the analysis of responses from public representatives?
By the way, I have not met any other Deputies around the House who have been contacted by Red C. I am not saying they were not contacted. I have not spoken to all 160 Deputies, or, rather, the other 159 apart from me. I have asked this in different places regarding whether anyone has been contacted, though, and I have drawn a blank in this regard. I do know, however, that three members of this committee were contacted in October and-or November. My office received phone calls a few times but I was not available. Was Deputy McAuliffe contacted?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I was contacted on two occasions.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Therefore, four people on this committee were contacted. This is a bit of a coincidence. Would Mr. Algeo accept that it seems to be a bit of a coincidence for four out of 13 members of this committee to have been contacted? Would he accept this seems like a high number? I refer to members of this committee being contacted by a polling company, regarding our attitude to many of the topics raised here today, in the few weeks before the regulator was due to appear before this committee and some five weeks before the representatives of the national lottery were also to appear. I assure Mr. Algeo that my responses to the questions would be interesting, and if Red C wishes to provide this information to the company, it can. I will not stop it from doing so. Does Mr. Algeo not find it unusual and odd that at least four members of this committee were contacted in the month or so before the regulator and he were due to appear before us?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Regarding the commission, was any request made to Red C to seek the views of members of this committee in particular?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Or Dáil Deputies?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I understand that. Equally, though, I must tell Mr. Algeo that I have never been very good at having my name pulled out of a hat. This is being truthful.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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The Chair does not play the lotto.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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No. I assure the Deputy I do not. My point is that I find it unusual that the names of four members of this committee were pulled out of the hat in respect of a random survey of the public, which included politicians and anybody else. Four members of this committee were contacted. We have confirmed that four of those present were contacted, at least, and perhaps there may have been one or two others, about a month or so before the regulator and Mr. Algeo were due before this committee. I find this unusual.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Right.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I call Deputy Carthy to ask one brief question.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There has been much talk about player welfare. I hope this is an area that the national lottery plans to improve, based on the responses earlier. If player welfare is a serious consideration, then this aspect needs to be quantifiable. We are the Committee of Public Accounts and this is how we deal with things. We must be able to assess whether an agency or company we are dealing with is serious about something it says is a priority. The way in which we do that is to be able to get some form of an assessment regarding how much is being spent and how many people are being prioritised in respect of their workload in that area. Moving on, the online purchase of lotto tickets has increased in recent years. A greater emphasis has been placed on this aspect by the company's marketing. People are being encouraged to go down this route. What percentage of overall sales does this product constitute now?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Those were the figures for 2021. I presume the national lottery expects this level to increase.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Regarding online purchases, is there a limit on the number of tickets individuals can buy in this way?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What are those limits?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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If someone was spending €900 in a month, would a red flag be raised? How would this kind of situation be dealt with?
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
Premier Lotteries Ireland has a wide variety of player protections. People navigating their way through those in a way that led to spending as high as €900 monthly would have had to have appeared on the daily, weekly and monthly reports. By the end of their first month, then, they would have had multiple flags raised. What would and does happen in such cases is that people receive an ever-escalating set of messages, which point out to them their relative spending versus what they used to spend or their relative spend versus other players. We have used extensive AB testing and third parties to help us with this undertaking to increase the efficacy of these messages.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What is AB testing?
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
A message might, for example, be sent to the Deputy saying he is spending more than he did last week. Another message could also be sent to tell him he was spending more today than he did yesterday. One of these messages would be more effective than the other, so we would go to the more effective one. When we say "more effective", we mean that people who have been flagged have reduced their spending and activity.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What happens if somebody does not reduce such activity?
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
The person in question would get a phone call from a member of our staff, who would have a conversation about the expenditure and activity on the account. In extremis, if our member of staff is not satisfied that the person is demonstrating that they are in control of their gambling, then we will put some limit on the account, including and up to exclusion.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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For the most recent period covered by the company's figures, how many people were contacted by phone? Does Mr. Algeo have the figures for 2021?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Let us to go the other extreme. How many people would have had their accounts cut off essentially?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am asking Mr. Algeo to share it with us.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Why? It could hardly be described as commercially sensitive.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does it have to be published that 90% of the national lottery's money goes back into the community?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I know it is published. I see it every time I turn on the television. What I am saying is that there is no legal obligation on PLI to publish that. Here is another piece of information that would be useful to show the national lottery's bona fides in terms of player protection - saying that "X" number of people were cut off from its website because of concerns about their welfare. That would be a very good news story for the national lottery so I am asking Mr. Algeo to share that information with us. The only reason I could think of that PLI would not give that information was if the number was very low or zero.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is it fair to say that there is nothing in that legislation that prevents PLI from making that public?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It gives PLI the right but it does not place an obligation on it.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The point the Deputy was making is that if PLI wishes to publish it, it can do so.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We have had a meeting with the regulator. That is the same as not publishing it at all as far as I am concerned. Can someone purchase tickets on the national lottery website with a credit card?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Red C contacted my office on a number of occasions about the survey. Thankfully, my staff decided I had better things to do than taking the call.
I understand that PLI sought to have some parts of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report redacted. Is that true?
Mr. Andrew Algeo:
That is correct. The Comptroller and Auditor General shared with us the report a couple of days before it was published. While we broadly welcomed the report, we noted that we considered some information in it that related to the quantum of marketing spend, if PLI was included, to be confidentially sensitive, as all private entities would consider their marketing spend to be confidential so we asked-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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PLI wanted to prevent the public from knowing about one of the key issues that has been of public concern and concern to this committee
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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This is spend relating to money allocated for prize funds that PLI advertised to all and sundry was going back into the community when in fact it was not but was instead being used to make those same advertisements.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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No, it is not. The State, through a very stupid Government decision, privatised the company and created it through a licence structure that put in place a legal provision, in a law passed by the Oireachtas, which stated there was a proviso under which unclaimed prize funds can be spent. It also stipulated that some part of that money must go towards topping up prizes. That is not the case in any other area. I do not understand how anyone could conceive that it is not in the public interest to find out that only 2% of that money went to that purpose and 98% went towards advertising by the company, particularly when PLI will not give us the figure in terms of other advertising. For all we know, this could be PLI's entire advertising budget.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Was the company aware that the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General is one of the few offices that has constitutional protection? Who did it think it was that it had the right to seek to have a section of a report redacted?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There is a difference here. The regulator's accounts are audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General and through that, it is accountable to this committee. PLI is a private company. There is a difference.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am referring to the Comptroller and Auditor General's report not the-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I know that and the Deputy is entitled to do that.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Comptroller and Auditor General was perfectly entitled, and I would argue correct, to tell it to go and jump in the lake.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That concludes the questions. I thank Mr. Murphy and Mr. Algeo for attending and the staff of PLI for assisting the committee in preparing for today's meeting. I also thank the Comptroller and Auditor General and his staff for attending and assisting the committee. Is it agreed that we will seek any follow-up information and carry out any actions? Agreed. Is it also agreed that we note and publish the opening statements provided for today's meeting? Agreed.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Could we also agree, as was suggested by a number of speakers, that we put the regulator back on our agenda for a forthcoming meeting?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We can do that. At our next meeting, at 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 15 December 2022, we will engage with the Office of Public Works.