Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I remind members, witnesses and persons in the Public Gallery to turn off their mobile phones.

The purpose of the first session is to undertake an examination of the horse and greyhound racing fund regulations 2022. The second session will be further scrutiny of EU legislative proposals COM (2022) 134, COM (2022) 242, COM (2022) 296 and COM (2022) 305. In the first session, the committee will hear from the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy McConalogue, and his officials. In the second session, we will hear from Mr. Paul Savage, assistant secretary at the Department, and other officials. All present in the committee room are asked to exercise personal responsibility in order to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19.

I bring to the attention of witnesses who are to give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. That means they have a full defence in any defamation action for anything said at the committee meeting.

However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's direction. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard and are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses who are to give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication by witnesses, outside the proceedings held by the committee, of any matter arising from the proceedings.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against either a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to the utterances of members participating in this committee meeting online when their participation is from within the parliamentary precincts. There can be no assurances in respect of participation online from outside the parliamentary precincts. Members should be mindful of this when contributing.

In this first session on the Horse and Greyhound Racing Fund Regulations 2022, the committee will hear from the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy McConalogue, officials from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Mr. Gordon Conroy, assistant secretary, Ms Caroline Ball, principal officer, and Ms Louise McAlavey, assistant principal. I invite the Minister to make his opening statement.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the committee for facilitating this discussion and engagement this evening. Annual funding to the horse and greyhound fund is important to both the thoroughbred and greyhound sectors. It is important expenditure from the State in support of both sectors. It is good to have an opportunity every year to appear before the committee to answer questions and elaborate on matters pertaining to the fund that members may wish to discuss.

An important pillar of Government policy is to ensure the horse and greyhound racing industries achieve their maximum potential and, in so doing, contribute to economic and social development over a wide geographic distribution of the country. Both industries make a valuable contribution to a balanced regional economy. It is estimated that the thoroughbred industry has an annual economic impact of €1.84 billion, with direct and indirect employment amounting to 29,000 people. The greyhound sector benefits an estimated 10,000 people.

The thoroughbred industry brings a high level of international investment into the country. We are world class in this space and very much the envy of the world with the success we have achieved, as well as the continued excellence we achieve in breeding. The sector is crucial in driving a balanced economy and it is one that we strongly support. Government funding, in addition to supporting these key industries, presents an excellent opportunity to yield a high return for its investment leading to a flow of income through the economy, thereby providing widespread benefits for our society.

The Irish equine breeding and racing industry is extremely competitive at a global level. It is a beacon of excellence. Ireland is the second largest producer of bloodstock in the world by value sold, after the USA. We also have the world’s third highest number of thoroughbreds foaled each year, after the USA and Australia. The thoroughbred sector is in our blood and DNA; it is part of our identity. Ireland has proven itself to be the land of the saints, scholars and stallions. Successive Governments have acknowledged the importance of these industries and supported them through legislative and policy initiatives. The support provided by public funds through investment in these industries has enabled Ireland to develop a world-class reputation for excellence in horse racing, greyhound racing and breeding. Thanks to the hard work done to maintain the industries during Covid-19 and the exceptional support of the Irish people for the vaccination programme, people can again enjoy the special atmosphere of full attendances at outdoor events.

The horse and greyhound racing industries receive financial support from the State through the horse and greyhound racing fund under section 12 of the Horse and Greyhound Racing Act 2001. Payments are made from the fund to Horse Racing Ireland, HRI, and to Rásaíocht Con Éireann, RCÉ. In the period from 2001 to date, a total of €1.54 billion has been paid from the fund to the horse and greyhound racing industries in accordance with the provisions of the Act. The cumulative upper limit on payments from the fund, provided for under the relevant regulations, has been reached. Exchequer support provided from the fund is crucial to the survival and continued development of the horse and greyhound racing industries. In order to give effect to the provisions of budget 2023, this cumulative upper limit must be increased by regulation. The Estimates for my Department, passed by both Houses as part of budget 2023, include an allocation of €91 million for the horse and greyhound racing fund. This will be distributed in accordance with section 12(6) of the Horse and Greyhound Racing Act 2001, with 80%, or €72.8 million, going to HRI, and 20%, or €18.2 million, going to RCÉ. In order to allow the Department to provide the moneys allocated in budget 2023, it is necessary to comply with the technical requirement under section 12(13) of the Act to increase the cumulative limit on the amount payable from the horse and greyhound racing fund by €91 million to €1.64 billion. This is achieved by way of the regulations submitted to the committee today. The aggregate limit on the horse and greyhound racing fund has been increased in this manner in 2004 and in every year since 2009.

The 2017 Deloitte report into the economic impact of Irish breeding and racing, commissioned by HRI, indicated that the total direct and stimulated expenditure of the Irish breeding and racing industry was estimated at €1.84 billion in 2016. In addition, it was estimated that the industry supports the direct and indirect employment of 29,000 people. Horse racing generates a significant return for the rural economy and a positive international profile. Behind the facts and figures are the thousands of men and women who, directly and indirectly, make the Irish racing and breeding industry what it is today. Statistics released by HRI for the horse racing and breeding sector in Ireland for the first six months of this year point to a continued resilience in the industry. While some of the metrics are down year on year, many figures compare favourably with the first six months of 2019, the last full year before the Covid-19 pandemic for comparison. As proven in 2022 to date, Irish owners, trainers, jockeys and horses are setting standards globally and their stellar achievements and enduring influence underscore Ireland’s international prominence.

The Irish equine breeding and racing industry is competitive at a global level despite other major racing nations having much larger populations and economies. We are consistently punching above our weight because of the incredible passion and commitment to excellence displayed by everyone in the sector, from yard staff to jockeys and owners. The importance of a strong welfare and integrity foundation to this highly successful industry is crucial and is recognised throughout the industry. We work with HRI, the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board, IHRB, and other relevant stakeholders to ensure the highest standards of integrity and welfare are maintained. In that regard, in November last year, this committee published a report on horse racing in Ireland. At the committee’s request, an international equine anti-doping expert, Dr. Craig Suann, was commissioned to conduct an independent review of the IHRB’s equine anti-doping programme. This review concluded that the programme at least matches international best practices in most respects and has made significant advances in recent years. Nevertheless, improvements are always possible. It is worth noting that Government funding, in addition to supporting this key industry, also presents an opportunity to yield a high return for its investment, leading to a flow of income throughout the economy. Support for certain strategic industries is important for future economic growth and can provide widespread benefits for society and for the economy overall.

The EU–UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement reached in December 2020, which included the Northern Ireland protocol, was welcome from an industry perspective. However, the facility to move horses freely without veterinary certification between Ireland and Britain under an agreement known as the tripartite agreement no longer applies. This has added cost and a significant administrative burden to such movements. The global nature of major breeding operations illustrates that while Ireland arguably now has a leadership position within Europe, this pre-eminence is never guaranteed.

According to the 2021 Power report, the greyhound industry provides and supports considerable employment both directly and indirectly across the economy. It is estimated that in 2019, the industry supported over 4,000 full-time and part-time jobs in the economy. In addition, there are over 6,000 active greyhound owners. The total number of people deriving economic benefit from the sector is estimated at over 10,000. The funding provided to the greyhound sector helps sustain a long-standing tradition as the industry is part of the social fabric of our country.

This funding underpins economic activity across the country and is of particular importance in rural Ireland. The future of the industry is dependent on a strong governance platform and on the industry having the highest standards of integrity and welfare, founded on a strong regulatory system. There is a strong commitment to improved animal welfare in this sector in the programme for Government. Provisions in the Greyhound Racing Act 2019, which came into effect in May of that year, are making a real difference in this regard. The legislation strengthens the legal basis for the industry, with a view to fortifying the integrity of the greyhound racing sector and improving provision for greyhound traceability. The new Act improves the governance of Rásaíocht Con Éireann, strengthens regulatory controls in the industry, modernises sanctions and improves integrity within the sector. It provides the industry with real tools with which it can effect fundamental change and reform. It facilitates the board in focusing on its priority objective of achieving the highest standards of care and welfare of greyhounds.

Further commencement orders for the small number of remaining sections will continue to be phased in as expediently as possible and, as implementation continues, Rásaíocht Con Éireann will be enabled to ensure the important heritage associated with greyhound racing in Ireland continues under the appropriate rules and regulations. The Department, along with the sector, is committed to the continuing to strengthen welfare standards. Future funding of the sector is contingent on welfare standards being upheld and this is reflected in annual parameters set out by my officials in their liaison with Rásaíocht Con Éireann.

A key element of the new legislation is the provision, for the first time, for a full IT traceability system for racing greyhounds. The Rásaíocht Con Éireann traceability system, RCÉTS, came into operation in January last year. The system provides a mechanism to ensure racing greyhounds are properly registered and traceable throughout their lives up to the point of rehoming or retirement. Life stages include birth, registration, racing career, all changes of ownership and location and end of life. Data from the system at the end of September 2022 indicate that 32,500 greyhounds were subject to traceability. It is intended that RCÉTS phase 2 will be developed next year. This will include additional functionality to facilitate the recording of injuries at RCÉ-licensed stadia during racing, official and unofficial trials; the capture of details relating to euthanasia of a greyhound by a veterinary surgeon; the capture of medical records and health checks carried out by veterinary surgeons; the recording of sampling history and adverse analytical findings; and reporting details of offences under the Greyhound Racing Act 2019. In addition to its care and welfare programme, RCÉ has a comprehensive range of activities in the areas of regulatory, integrity and laboratory functions. This includes activities relating to welfare inspections or investigations, testing regimes, veterinary services, financial support for the Irish Retired Greyhound Trust, IRGT, and contributions to private rehoming agencies.

Given the wide geographic distribution of these two industries, they are fundamental to the achievement of more balanced regional economic growth. Nurturing rural economies is a key priority for the Government and in this context, these industries should be recognised for the considerable contribution they make to rural economic activity and employment. The welfare of horses and greyhounds is a cornerstone of both industries and I am assured that HRI and RCÉ are striving to ensure the highest standards for the sports and their participants, on and away from the racecourse. The Horse and Greyhound Racing Fund has played a key role in providing investment and been instrumental in shaping the destiny of these industries. Brexit and Russia’s illegal invasion of Ukraine continue to pose an array of challenges to the Irish economy and coupled with the fact that we are a small and open economy prone to volatility, it can be somewhat difficult to fully predict what the future holds. It is therefore crucial we support these important industries and their continued navigation through these challenges as we enter next year. Accordingly, I am seeking the committee's support to ensure Horse Racing Ireland and Rásaíocht Con Éireann receive the funding provided for in budget 2023 and that the important role played by these industries, and the economic activity generated by them, are sustained into the future. I commend this regulation to the committee and I look forward to discussing any questions members may have.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the Minister. We have discussed this fund before. It is unique as it is the only line in the budget that must be distinctly approved by the Oireachtas and it is distinct as the split between horse racing and greyhound racing is enforced in accordance with the Act. Following the approval by the Dáil - assuming it is received - the Minister allocates the funding via parameter letters to both organisations. Does the Minister plan to expand the parameters in next year's correspondence to either or both organisations?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We lay out the key objectives each year including to continue to support the sectors and employment in the sectors and their progress. Welfare and integrity is also crucial. We will be emphasising that this year, as we have in other years, and plan to continue to build on it. I am not sure whether there is something in particular the Deputy thinks we should be expanding on. I would be interested in hearing about it.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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My specific question is whether the Minister will direct that a proportion of the funding to either organisation will be ring-fenced for specific purposes, such as animal welfare, social inclusion measures, retirement supports for animals or any other provision.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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It is very much part of it at the moment. As I mentioned, 10% of the funding for Rásaíocht Con Éireann is for welfare and integrity measures and it is taking specific steps that are achieving significant progress. The RCÉTS started last year. It is being implemented and will be stepped out into phase 2 next year. The rehoming programme for greyhounds is also important. We seek to build on those measures next year. For example, the rehoming trust rehomed 1,775 greyhounds in 2020. That increased to 2,234 last year and from January to October, this year 1,509 greyhounds were rehomed. Private greyhound rehoming organisations receive financial support from the trust which assists with the veterinary costs involved in preparing retired greyhounds for rehoming. Some €29,000 was spent in 2020 and €42,000 was spent last year. Again, we plan to build on that.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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When he says "build on that", will the Minister expand any of the percentage figures across any of the bands?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Building on the work, there was significant investment in phase 1 of the traceability system and we are keen to ensure progress continues. I have an open mind on it. We must ensure welfare and integrity are central. That is why 10% has been ring-fenced in the past few years. That is why we will continue to do that. The key is to ensure the necessary funding is available for welfare and integrity to be fully backed up and resourced.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Last year, I proposed an amendment to the motion that called for a full review of the Exchequer funding to examine the social and economic impact of the fund and ensure we are getting the best efficacy and value for money. The Minister opposed that motion and stated it was unnecessary. If I correctly remember the Minister's words, he stated such work was ongoing all the time. Will the Minister outline what form the review of the funding took over the past 12 months and who carried it out?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I will give figures on the thoroughbred side as well. Some 20% of the funding allocation to Horse Racing Ireland, HRI, must be applied to integrity services.

There is ongoing engagement throughout the year. The Department has a strong oversight function with regard to how this funding is spent and to engagement with HRI and RCÉ. With respect to how the funding is spent and the plans for that, they engage with the Department to agree it and we oversee it. As the Deputy stated at the outset, this funding is unlike almost any other funding because of its nature and because of the Act.

The level of scrutiny afforded to this funding, both here and in the Dáil, is greater than that relating to probably other budget line.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I do not dispute the fact that the sectors are important to rural economies or that both are deserving of public funding. However, that funding must be subject to the highest levels of accountability and transparency.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I agree.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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An issue that is a bugbear of mine and of many people is the 80-20 split. That split is enshrined in the legislation. Has the Minister given any consideration to amending the legislation?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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No, I have not. It has been established since 2001, when the Act was put in place, and both organisations have ongoing funding requirements every year. There have been small increases year on year over the period. It is important that there is certainty for both industries.

On how the annual figure for the funding is arrived at, both HRI and RCÉ make pre-budget submissions. We consider those and they form part of our discussions with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. That certainty is important for both organisations.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Even though the Minister has the power, through regulation, to vary the precise percentage splits, I take it that he does not intend to use it.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Is that something Deputy Carthy would propose or would he propose a different percentage split? What are his thoughts on the matter?

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister has stated on previous occasions that the funding allocation is determined on the basis of the business cases both organisations bring to him. If the greyhound industry brings forward a very good business proposal to the effect that it needs an additional €2.5 million, does he believe that the horse racing sector should get an additional €10 million on the basis that he agrees with the former proposal? That is the position as it stands at the moment. If one organisation makes a good case for additional funding, the other organisation gets it by default. I do not think that is a good way to spend public money. That is not to undermine anything I have said. The funding to both organisations should be separated. Representatives from the organisations in question have appeared before this committee and other committees and stated that they would have no difficulty in principle with that. Where is the resistance to it coming from?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Provision for the 80-20 split is in the Act. A legal change is possible and we could change the legislation to do that. It is important to have a level of certainty there for both organisations as to their funding on a year-to-year basis. We have worked to ensure that there are incremental improvements. It is also important for both organisations that they leverage what is happening in the private sector, and additional funding outside of that, in order that there is income generation happening in both spheres. There are two arguments to that. However, the level of certainty that is there is important.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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If HRI brought forward - and I am not suggesting it would do this - a very bad business case, I presume that would result in a reduction of the funding it would receive?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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As I say, we would-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Would it be fair in that instance that the greyhound sector would also suffer as a result of any decision made in that regard?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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No. We oversee and engage with the organisations on an ongoing basis. The objective is to ensure that both are maximising their capacity to grow and to generate employment and economic activity. There are two sides to the coin. In the context of the 80-20 split, trying to support both organisations and give them certainty is important. There would be significant uncertainty if the other approach was taken.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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If they had to apply in the same way as every other organisation, namely, on the basis of their own merits.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Both organisations have to plan long term. We try to ensure that they both have strategic plans and then we work with them to fund those. Certainty in respect of what is coming down the track, in as much as there can be on the basis of the economic situation and Government finances year to year, has value.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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On a number of occasions, I have discussed the proportion of their funding. Perhaps a better way to say it, because this can go into grey areas, is to refer to the alignment of the funding that HRI receives with the money it subsequently distribute in prize funds. Does the Minister know yet how much HRI intends to invest in prize money next year?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Thoroughbred racing, as with greyhound racing, revolves around the breeding, training and owning of thoroughbreds. The fulcrum of that is racing. In order to compete internationally and maintain the position we have whereby, for a small country, we can compete with any of the larger countries, having top-quality racing is really important. The approach taken is, apart from the horse racing sector, 20% goes into integrity and welfare, which are massively important because the whole sector is underpinned by both. As to how that funding is distributed, it is spent on high-value races and low-value races right across the board and on all grades and types of horses. This is to ensure that there is the opportunity for all types of horses, trainers, owners and jockeys to benefit from the income from those races. That is really important in the context of driving the sector forward and keeping us in a position whereby we are competitive internationally. The HRI contribution to prize money is €41.5 million.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister know the total prize money that will be expended next year?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I will check if we have the information on the total prize money.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The figure I have for this year is €64.8 million.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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HRI projected that €42.1 million of its allocation of €56 million for 2022 would be allocated to prize money.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Where does the €56 million?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I am taking away the 20% for integrity and welfare which-----

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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So HRI-----

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Of the €56 million, €42 million is allocated to prize money.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The total prize pool was €64.8 million.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister know what the total prize pool will be for 2023?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I do not know, have we done that yet? Is that agreed yet?

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Was that not in the business case that was provided?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I am working off the figures we have here. So the total prize money pool of €51.5 million showed a reduction of €16 million on the previous year's total of €67 million. The owners' contribution was down by €3.4 million. The overall pool in the outgoing year was €67 million. That was the total prize funding.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is not that I thought of raising the issue of prize money; it was people in the sector, particularly smaller breeders and trainers. They say that it discriminates against them because it makes it more difficult for them to develop their operations. they also state that the diversion of a large amount of public money towards the prize fund ensures that the big operators will continue to get bigger and the smaller operators and newer entrants will find it increasingly difficult to break through. That can be seen when looking at the breakdown of the division of the prize fund. For example, between 2018 and this year, 48% of flat racing prize money went to the top five breeders. In the context of winter all-weather racing, the figure was 33% - it was 46% if you go to 10%. Some 52% of all prize money for national hunt racing went to the top five operators.

Can the Minister understand how there might be smaller operators in his county and mine that feel this way of spending money is not the best way to support the industry? That is why we have brought forward proposals to carry out a full evaluation of the efficacy of the money we are spending to ensure we get the best social and economic impact from the taxpayers' investment.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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This is always going to be a contested space, because no matter how it is sliced and diced, there will always be people within a sector saying it should be done this way or that way. It is about getting the balance right in relation to how that is done so that all types of grassroots, be it farmers, trainers or owners, are supported, all the way right up to having top-class races as well that compete internationally. It is about striking that balance. Given how it has been done over the past 20 years or so, and looking at how healthy our sector is, the employment it creates, the involvement in it, and how it compares with any sector internationally, I believe that is a sign it has been done pretty well and the structure has worked pretty well. I want to look at what happened in 2021, which is the last full year we have. The Horse Racing Ireland fact book for 2021 shows there were 394 fixtures - actual race meetings - with 8,700 individual runners. Of these horses, 25% won at least once over the course of the year. More than 6,000 of the individual runners, the horses, won prize money at some stage. That equates to around 69% of individual runners. It was 70% the year before. About 70% of individual runners won some prize money.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We can use figures in different ways. Look at the actual breakdown of the figures for 2018. From the total prize fund of €29 million for that sector, the top five trainers got almost €14 million of that. For the national hunt there was €28 million. More than €15 million of that went to the top five trainers. Accepting the Minister's bona fides, would it not be appropriate to take a step back and say we are making an allocation for this year, and in the course of this year we are going to carry out a full review to make sure we are getting the best bang for our buck? I do not know why there is resistance to that.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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It is important for that to be done every year.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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But it is not done.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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That is the role Horse Racing Ireland has. It is made up of representatives from across the sector. As a State we look at trying to give consistent funding that allows it to develop. Within Horse Racing Ireland the objective year on year is to assess the success of what is happening and engage with the Department around funding as well. The capacity is there to adjust that year on year. It is important for that to be consistently reflected on. It is also important we have the balance right. There were around 3,000 individual races last year. Out of those 3,000 individual races, 2,600 of them had prize money of €25,000 or less. There were 94 of the 3,000 races that had prize money of more than €100,000. Given how it is spread across all of the races, obviously you cannot, nor should you, be looking to control who wins these races. That is a matter for the horses and the quality of the horses.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am only asking about whether taxpayers should be funding that through this mechanism.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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What you try and do is make sure that in terms of the races, whether they be small, medium or large races in different parts of the country, the support is spread well so there are opportunities for all types of trainers, owners, horses and breeders to benefit from the funding. The aim is to drive it on and give encouragement to everyone. It is there throughout the grassroots and there are world-class races that attract and showcase the industry internationally. That investment in mares coming in to get covered by stallions is very important.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Apologies to the Minister, but I am conscious others wish to come in and we could go round in circles. I have two brief questions. The first is in respect of the foal levy. It is causing what appear to be increasing levels of frustration, and I am told that many breeders see the payment of the levy as being skewed in favour of higher value foals at the expense of those of a lower value. It generates about €2 million each year and largely supports different aspects of developing the thoroughbred sector. Considering the frustration it appears to have created within the sector, has the Minister given any consideration to reviewing or reforming it in any way?

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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In fairness, it is the horse and greyhound fund we are discussing. The question is outside the remit of this meeting.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is not a million miles away. I will ask one final question if the Minister will decide he can give a quick answer. It is in respect of the CEO of Greyhound Racing Ireland, GRI, stepping down after less than a year in the job. GRI told the Committee for Public Accounts that it did not conduct an exit interview. Has the Minister sought a meeting with the former CEO to get her assessment of any potential issues there were or any ideas for ensuring the sector can learn from her experience, albeit short?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I have a couple of figures on the foal levy. Last year 38% of foals were charged at just under €100, 51% at between €150 and €300, and 11% at between €350 and €600. It is a structure that has been in place for a long time. The uptake and acceptance of it is strong in the sector. Like with everything, there are different views and it is one on which I have met people. It is a separate matter. I will adhere to the Chair's guidance and stop there.

On the CEO's departure, I know the committee met with Rásaíocht Con Éireann. Obviously, the employment matter is one between the CEO and Rásaíocht Con Éireann. That is not a space I would be in, but I know the committee had a meeting with the organisation and I am sure they had as thorough a discussion as could be had when it was before the committee.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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I have six or seven questions, so I will put the questions, if that is okay, and we will move through them quickly. The first question needs a simple yes or no. Does the Minister support the Oireachtas committee's recommendation of a complete ban on surgical artificial insemination, including in greyhounds?

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I remind the Senator that we are here to discuss-----

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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That is part of the welfare of the greyhounds. We are here talking about greyhound welfare.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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That is true. That is a fair point.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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The committee heard how it is highly invasive and dangerous, even when carried out in a controlled sterile environment. It is also banned in Britain.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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It is the first time that question has been put to me. It is not something I have looked at in detail. It is something the committee has considered strongly.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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Has the Minister read the report?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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It is something I will reflect on further, but I do not have a position on it at the moment.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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Okay. It is disappointing if the Minister has not read the report that came out of this committee, because that was one of the recommendations.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I read all of the reports that come out, but it is something to which I would have to give further consideration and thought before having a definitive position on it.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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My second question relates to the greyhound studbook. I understand the Irish Coursing Club, ICC, runs both the studbook in Ireland and the studbook in Britain. It provides the services for those two studbooks. We repeatedly hear from Greyhound Racing Ireland and the Government that there is a desire for complete transparency and that we have a new traceability system in place. Given that 83% of the dogs on the British studbook are Irish bred, which is a matter of fact, why is it that only one of those studbooks is registered with Europetnet? The British studbook is not registered with Europetnet, which would give full traceability. Surely we should be calling for Rásaíocht Con Éireann to insist that, if it is going to send 83% of the dogs to race in Britain, the microchip system they are on would be registered with Europetnet. This would allow us to have full traceability across the life of the dog.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I will come back with a written answer on that. It is something on which I would need to get more detail and come back directly.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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We are still on the matter of the studbook. Anybody can look up the British studbook, and the information is completely available to the public.

You can see the number of litters that were born. You can see the whelping date, the details of the sire and the dam and the number of dogs and bitches born into that litter. That is publicly available information. Anybody can carry out their own analysis. We know that there is an issue within the greyhound racing industry in Ireland about unaccounted-for pups. Would the Minister support a very similar system with the Irish stud book? It is being provided by the same company but one is providing full transparency to people whereas the Irish equivalent system, run by the same company, ICC, is not providing that information to the public.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The ICC is the competent authority for the stud books. That has been the case since 1923. Its registration software system is currently being amended to incorporate the traceability of greyhounds. This will also allow for the capture of specific details relating to each greyhound from 2021 onwards. The stud book records pedigrees, ownerships, breeding data and transfers of ownership. The ICC is delegated functions under the Welfare of Greyhounds Act 2011 and that includes the registration of the greyhound, the breeding establishment, notification of the death of a greyhound, the notification of the sale or transfer of a greyhound, the restriction and breeding of a bitch and the issuance of welfare notices and fixed penalty notices. The main point is that the ICC is working on the software at the moment to amend it so that it can capture specific details.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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As a member of the public I can go online and I can find out exactly how many pups were born in Britain, the date they were born and the breakdown of the litter in terms of males and females. That is all publicly available information. It allows for the tracking of the numbers of dogs being bred. Would the Minister not agree that the Irish public are entitled to the same amount of information, particularly given the levels of funding that goes in to greyhound racing in Ireland?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The objective of the ICC's work at the moment, with the registration software system that is being put in place, is to capture that information and have it clearly available.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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Is the Minister giving a commitment that we are going to have that information, that is, the whelping date, mother, father, breakdown of the litter?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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What I am saying is that we can get more information specifically on that. I do not run the ICC stud book. I am not a full expert on all of the ins and outs and minute details in relation to it. The plan here and what the ICC is working on, as well as the software it is adjusting and upgrading at the moment, is with the objective of having and capturing a lot of these data. That is the direction of travel here. We can come back with further specific details.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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Would the Minister support that type of information being made available to the public?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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It is important that we have as much information available as possible. As for the plans around what that can capture, it is welcome that it is under way and is being expedited. We can liaise further with the specific detail around it.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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I have a question about the IRGT fund, which provides financial assistance to a number of private greyhound rehoming organisations, as well as doing its own direct rehoming. According to a response to a parliamentary question the Minister gave, this assistance is available to all such organisations upon application. It covers neutering, vaccination, dental costs and things like that. Any rehoming organisation can apply to the IRGT to rehome greyhounds. Does the Minister have concerns about a statement on the Irish Greyhound Owners and Breeders Federation website that went up this month? It states the organisation strongly objects to the practice whereby owners are rehoming their greyhounds with anti-racing establishments. They strongly advise that no owner place his or her dog with any of those organisations. Some of the organisations that are currently getting funding through the IRGT have a stated policy that they do not support greyhound racing but they are rehoming the dogs. As the IRGT has a four to five-month waiting list, it is deeply concerning that the Irish greyhound owners and breeders organisations are advising their members to not rehome dogs with organisations because of their position on racing.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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There has been massive work done and tremendous progress in relation to putting in place the rehoming approach. It is really welcome. Great work is being done by those who are rehoming as well. All of those should be supported. It is really important work. There has been progress in how it has evolved. Two years ago over, 1,700 greyhounds were rehomed. With IRGT assistance it was up to 2,234 last year and as of October this year, we have had 1,500. All of them should be supported and it is something that we need to continue to develop.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister think that somebody should be contacting the Irish Greyhound Owners and Breeders Federation to tell it to remove that statement? We want people to rehome their greyhounds, that is what we all want. We do not want unwanted greyhounds being dealt with in an inappropriate manner. We want them to be rehomed but the owners and breeders have a statement of the website advising owners to not rehome their dogs with organisations that do not support greyhound racing.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The important thing here is the standard of care and welfare that is provided by the rehoming organisations. Their view otherwise is irrelevant to the level of care. I know that Rásaíocht Con Éireann is supporting it. It is something that we are supporting strongly in terms of Government funding in relation to ensuring that there is traceability and that there is rehoming. We should respect the role that all of those play.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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I have a question regarding the concerns about the 29% increase in greyhound deaths at racetracks in 2021.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Could the Senator repeat that please?

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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According to a response to a parliamentary question, there was a 29% increase in greyhound deaths at racetracks in 2021. What measures will be put in place to ensure that figure will be reduced in future?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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It was a unique situation in 2021 because of Covid and given that tracks were closed for most of the year. Across all aspects of our lives, 2021 was a unique situation. We have seen improvement this year in racing attendances. The recent Irish Greyhound Derby was one of the best attended in many years. As with other organisations and everything else we have been doing, working to recover from Covid, to get back to where we were and hopefully to push on from that has been a key objective. We worked to support Rásaíocht Con Éireann and also to support Horse Racing Ireland through Covid. We wanted to see the particular challenge of not having anybody inside those tracks other than those that were organising the racing. We helped to deal with that, and helped them to come through that like with every other business and entity in the country post Covid. Thankfully, they are, and the objective is to try to build and improve on that.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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The last question then is about the strategy. In its business plan and strategy, the Greyhound Board of Great Britain has stated that it wants to reduce reliance on Irish-bred dogs. Is this a cause for concern given that 85% of the dogs that are currently racing in British racetracks are Irish bred? The Preferred Results report from 2017 spoke about the fact that Irish greyhound racing is predominantly based on breeding as opposed to racing and that this was a financial risk for the organisation. Is there anything in Greyhound Racing Ireland's strategic plan now to move away from that overbreeding if they are going to lose the market in Britain to buy those dogs?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The key thing is the welfare and wellbeing of the dogs and ensuring that the systems are in place to care for them throughout their lives. I know there has been a strong relationship between Britain and Ireland over the years, like there is with so many other things.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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This is more about a business plan, however. The Preferred Results report of 2017 pointed out that breeding in excess in Ireland is a financial risk to the viability of greyhound racing here. Between 83% and 85% of the dogs racing in Britain are coming from Ireland but now the British greyhound racing body is saying it wants to reduce the reliance on Irish dogs.

I would have thought that this is a business risk for Greyhound Racing Ireland.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The new strategic plan for RCÉ is due in the first quarter of next year. This will be the appropriate place to consider this matter. There is also a challenge with regard to the 2017 Preferred Results report. I understand the board of RCÉ had concerns regarding the data on which the report's recommendations were based.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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I do not think it is disputed that 85% of dogs racing in Britain are Irish-born dogs. That was not disputed.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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This is important to today's discussions. It chose not to adopt it as a policy. My understanding and advice are that the report might be subject to legal proceedings. This precludes me from commenting on it. We can continue to engage as appropriate but with regard to this advice, it is something I have to be cognisant at present.

Lynn Boylan (Sinn Fein)
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It comes back to the point on forming part of the financial review if we have a business model based on exporting a large number of the dogs bred in Ireland to Britain and Britain is now saying it wants to reduce the reliance on dogs. This this why Deputy Carthy called for the financial review. This would come into it. This is a financial risk for Greyhound Racing Ireland if there is nowhere for the dogs to go.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Discussions on the strategic reviews and strategic plans are the place to tease out all of these matters. RCÉ will present a new strategic plan in the first quarter of next year. It will engage with me and the team on this. All issues should be considered as part of this. It is important that the strategy we have is robust and makes sense for the country and that the welfare of animals is central to it. There is the idea there are no reviews and the Senator is saying there should be reviews. This is being assessed all the time and rightly assessed. Part of this is the discussion we are having today. Part of it is the engagement the committee had with RCÉ and HRI. It is important when public funding is being put into bodies that there is good engagement, oversight and planning. This planning does takes place and gets a lot of attention and detail, and rightly so. We want to see both sectors grow and improve, see the funding we provide being well spent and having a real economic dividend, and ensure, central to all of this, that the welfare of animals is a top priority.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Extra tracks are opening in the UK. The demand for greyhounds from Ireland in the UK has never been stronger. It is hard to tell what British breeding policy will be but, as in horse racing, the best stud dogs are here so the vast majority of dogs will always be bred here.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister and his officials. I am duty bound to declare I have interest as a horse owner and director of Kilbeggan Racecourse and the former chair of same. I warmly welcome the horse and greyhound fund. I fully get how important it is to the industries and the role both industries play in the progression of rural Ireland. There is much media commentary in particular on the distribution of prize money. Before I even start, I know I will be speaking out of both sides of my mouth and contradicting myself. I see where Deputy Carthy is coming from. The one thing I would say that quoting the number of trainers among whom the money is divided up is probably not the best model to use as they probably train horses from multiple owners. It is probably filtering down a little bit more than the point that has been made. However, we have to maintain a standard. To use a soccer analogy, the money in the Premier League killed the League of Ireland. If we do not keep up our top prize money, we will lose our horses as they will follow the trainers who will follow the prize money to the Middle East, the United States, Japan or wherever it is. The proof that the model is working is that very little of our prize money leaves the island, whereas at the same time our big trainers and owners are able to go to the United States, the Middle East and particularly the UK and bring prize money back to the Irish economy. That is proof the model is working.

I agree with Deputy Carthy that the small-time breeders at the bottom of the tree with fewer than five mares who cannot afford to go to a top-quality stallion might never see prize money. If something is not done to enhance and support these small types of operations, they may be the ones who walk away. If we start undermining the tree at the bottom, it will have the same effect as cutting the money at the top. The Minister spoke about the input and oversight he has regarding the money that goes to HRI. Is there any way to influence HRI to come up with a breeding scheme for the type of people I am speaking about who have five mares or fewer? It could be similar to the suckler scheme in farming.

Breeding a horse that will get them back the money, through prize money or at the sales, is a dream and it may not always happen. If they stop dreaming, we will lose out. Anyone who has been in Kilbeggan knows it is one of the best attended and fun racetracks in the country but the quality of horses is as low as we can go. If we did not have the low-quality horses, we would not have Kilbeggan or the low standard races, and we would not have the entertainment and enjoyment people seem to get. Through the Irish Thoroughbred Breeders Association or HRI, is it possible for the Minister to see whether some of this money could be filtered through in ways other than prize money? I will argue that we keep the prize money and keep our standards and I know there is a bit of a contradiction in this.

The Minister said he gets business models from the two organisations and the funding they get from the Government is based on these. What oversight or input does the Minister have regarding how the organisations spend their budgets? I mean the entire budget, including the matching funding. On the horse racing side, the biggest source of income other than the State money is from media rights, entry fees and sponsorship. Does the Minister have any input into how that is distributed or spent? I have been here for six years. The committee has met HRI annually. The Irish Equine Centre at Johnstown and the second all-weather track get discussed every time it comes before the committee. Who makes the final decision on where the funding goes? Does the Minister have an input? Can he say in any one year, when he is giving €71 million or 80% of the €91 million, that X amount must go towards capital funding and name two projects he sees as being the most important developments?

I will ask a question off brief. It is about the structure of the board of the IHRB. There was much discussion on this during our previous deliberations. Was the way in which this body is formed part of the Minister's discussions on how much money it would get for the coming year?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Senator Daly. I know he has a very strong understanding and experience of the sector. Where there are ideas, suggestions and proposals, I am very happy to consider them and reflect on them. As Minister I appoint members to the board of HRI. There is also industry representation from the various sectors of the industry and they play a role in bringing all of the strands of the industry together to pool understanding and knowledge. They decide and consider how best to use the investment, plan for the funding that is coming from the Government, leverage it and ensure there is private investment and maximum funding coming into the sector. It has a very strong role to play in this.

With regard to engagement between HRI, departmental staff and me as Minister, parameter letters are agreed every year. These advise HRI on the allocation from the fund and the split between current and capital distribution.

They also advise the organisation on how it must comply with certain conditions of the funding. That includes compliance with obligations under legislation and various codes and directives issued by the Government and the Department as well. There is, therefore, ongoing engagement. There is a strong role for the board but the Government provides State funding and there is engagement around that and parameter letters on how it is spent. The strategic plan, which is agreed with Government, is also important to laying it out. RCÉ is due to complete one in the first quarter of next year and HRI has had its one for a couple of years. They are important for planning ahead.

I see the point the Senator is making. Where there are particular suggestions it is something I am willing to engage in and reflect on. Then there is the role of the boards of HRI and RCÉ and the pooled knowledge there, which is important to the sector when it comes to balancing out the competing demands for funding and the competing opportunities to use it well.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We are not sure on that point but I expect it did. It was a report that looked at the full economic value of the industry, the full range of employment and the full economic benefit. It would be incongruous for it to not include the economic activity related to stallion fees, which are a massive part of the sector and an important part because of where they place us in breeding worldwide.

On the funding, when we look at the figure of €1.8 billion of economic activity and benefit and the 30,000 or so direct and indirect jobs, funding of approximately €70 million from the State is part of that and is contributing to it. That is a significant return on the State's investment. The State investment is important because in other countries we compete with, be it the US, Australia, France or Japan, state investment is significant and, in most cases, more than we put in. There is of course the UK as well. We must compete. The approach taken by the State over the years is to work with the industry and develop the innate capacities in the country from a point of view of our land but also of our people and the horsemanship skills. That has been crucial to bringing us to where we are. Our thoroughbred sector is in the premier division worldwide and the State investment and persistent policy has been important in developing that. Were we to seek to remove that we would undermine what has been achieved. We should value where we are at and look to build on it. That is why it is important we have invested, and continue to invest, in the sector via the Horse and Greyhound Fund.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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It is important the expenditure is fully scrutinised and assessed for its value for money. There is an ongoing process between the Department and both HRI and RCÉ on that. There are strategic plans put in place and then closely monitored, so we are doing that. Sometimes one can question the value for money of value-for-money reports as well. It is important that should be strong oversight and we have that. As was pointed out earlier in the meeting, there is no spending line that springs to mind that gets the level of scrutiny and in-depth discussion this one does. It is an issue the committee gives much time to during the year as well and normally RCÉ and HRI spend a good bit of time with the committee over a year or two.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister and his officials. We are discussing an important issue and I very much support both industries and the funding that goes to them. I am on record as saying we should increase it because the financial worth Ireland gets in return is colossal. I have a number of questions about the Horse and Greyhound Racing Fund. The Minister will be aware that this committee published a report in November 2021 regarding the horse racing industry. There were 11 recommendations in that report. HRI, the IHRB, trainers and departmental officials were before the committee in summer 2021 because there were a number of media accusations around drug-taking in the racing industry, which could have damaged its good name. It was a very important piece of work that the committee did at the time. I have a couple of questions on that work. It annoys me so much that the IHRB, to my knowledge, still does not have to disclose the salary of its CEO. To date, I do not think there are any females on its board to ensure gender balance. It is fully funded by the Department, the Government and the taxpayer. Does the Minister believe the salaries of senior people employed by the IHRB should be published, in the same way as HRI's are?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy, the Cathaoirleach and all on the committee for their work on that and for putting that report together. The first recommendation the Deputy referred to was the one relating to the board's composition with regard to independence and gender balance. The IHRB recently informed me that it has appointed Ms Angela Flanagan as its first independent director. She is due to take up the position on 1 January 2023. In relation to the salaries-----

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Will she be a paid employee or just a member of the board?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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She will be a member of the board.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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A voluntary member of the board.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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That is good news.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Regarding the reporting of salary details in audited financial statements, the IHRB has also informed the Department that it is its intention that any future contracts of employment will include the provision that employee income bands can be made publicly available. I have informed the IHRB, HRI and the Irish National Stud that the interests of the three bodies, in terms of greater corporate governance and transparency, would be well served and best served by including details of total employee benefits in any future audited financial statements as well.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I would like the Minister turn to that intention into them having to do it. They should not have any choice but to publish the salaries of senior members. A huge number of people contacted me about that. I have no doubt they contacted every member of the committee. One of the most frustrating things is that this is seen as a kind of boys' club. I am glad that there is gender balance now. I would like to see the IHRB appointing even more females to its board. I ask the Minister, his officials and the Department to insist that this not be an intention and that the body should have to publish the salaries.

Has the Department carried out, or does it have any plans to carry out, a review of the current legislation relating to the statutory functions of the IHRB?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Department is of the belief that the existing model is underpinned by legislation and it fits well. Both the legislation and the service level agreement between the IHRB and HRI provide a solid framework on which to base the regulation of the industry. It is acknowledged that governance practices in all organisations should be reviewed and developed. To that end, the Department has requested the IHRB to comply with the stringent codes of practice for the governance of State bodies.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Has the Minister any plans to review the current legislation as it stands?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I have not at the moment but I am happy to give that further consideration.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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That is okay. There was another issue around the drug testing capacity at tracks. There were a number of recommendations on that. We were given a commitment by IHRB that it would provide the committee with quarterly updates, or we asked it to do so, regarding the installation of CCTV at all of its racetracks. I understood that would be fully rolled out sometime in 2022. Does the Minister know if that has been done?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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It is well under way. A lot of work is ongoing. The Deputy said there were to be quarterly updates from the IHRB to this committee-----

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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It was recommended at the time that it would provide quarterly reports. I am not sure if it actually-----

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Has the committee received those?

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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No, we have not gotten them.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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CCTV will be operational at a minimum of 15 tracks by the end of this year. That will leave a balance of ten tracks that will be operational in the first quarter of next year.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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That is good news. Regarding the issuing of horse passports and so on, we found that things were very loosely done compared to what happens in the general livestock industry for cattle and everything like that. Does the Minister know if that has been tightened up? HRI and the IHRB were not able to tell us specifically the number of horses on the island of Ireland at the time or about the movement of horses. There was a very loose composition around that. Does the Minister know if those organisations have taken on any recommendations or if they have tightened up the regulations on the movement of horses on the island of Ireland?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I will give the Deputy some details from the update I have here. The traceability system continues to be enhanced and centres on our equine database, which was established in May 2013 and is part of our overall animal identification movement database. It records the registration details of all horses with a passport approved through the passport-issuing organisations in the country. It further records the registration of horses resident in the country. There was a commitment in the programme for Government to prioritise equine welfare through a robust traceability system. We carried out the first equine census in November 2021. To date, nearly 12,500 equine owners have submitted a return. These 12,500 returns have been converted to holding profiles, creating a link for the first time between each equine kept in the State on census day and the premises where it is kept. This linking of a horse to its habitual residence will allow the Department to manage animal and public health concerns, as well as lost or straying horses, with greater ease by providing more current details of the responsible keeper when the data are required. The second census will take place on 30 November this year. The Department has put a lot of effort into updating the census portal to make submission of online returns easier. It is the Department's intention to improve the equine e-passport shortly. E-passports have great potential for the real-time monitoring of movements and ownership. There has been work done but there is certainly more work to do here.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Is an electronic system, based on a database, being considered for passports and traceability and everything like that?

Ms Caroline Ball:

I understand that is being looked at in the context of the best way forward for the traceability systems.

It is still under consideration.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Is the Minister content with the amount of testing that has been carried out at tracks and yards? Has that increased year on year? I know the Minister may not have any figures to hand, but if he does, he might forward them to the committee secretariat which can distribute them to the committee members.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I think I should have some notes here. I am satisfied that the systems in place are very strong. It is very much similar to what is employed in other major racing countries. Last year, some 6,000 horses were tested by the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board, IHRB, of which a total of 71% were associated with races. Some 29% of them were outside of competition. A total of 21 adverse analytical findings were determined in these sectors. Unannounced herd testing, which gives a more detailed record of substances to which a horse is exposed, commenced in July 2020. Some 211 samples were taken in 2021 using the herd sample methodology. In May 2021, the Department granted authorised officer status to IHRB officials which will allow cross-industry co-operation on anti-doping.

While there is always room for improvement, we are satisfied the systems and processes the IHRB has in place with regard to anti-doping and horse welfare are fit for purpose. The Department was especially heartened to see the regime of testing and anti-doping measures receive a favourable analysis in the independent review of the IHRB and equine anti-doping programme which was conducted by Dr. Craig Suann which was important. He was broadly satisfied the IHRB processes at least match international best practice in most respects and of the body having made significant advances in recent years. It is very important our sector and industry are built on their integrity. That is fundamental. The Department and I are very aware of this and have a strong focus on it. We are satisfied that the systems are strong and as good as in place in any other country.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I understood, at the time, most of the lab analysis of drug tests were carried out off the island of Ireland. Is any of it carried out on the island of Ireland at present? We have come on in leaps and bounds in lab analysis with regard to Covid. It beggars belief we are not able to carry out those tests on the island of Ireland.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The IHRB informed us it had awarded a contract for laboratory services for analysis to LGC in 2018 after a public procurement process. Where is LGC?-----

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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That was not on the island of Ireland. Am I right in saying that?

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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All right, Deputy.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I do not think the tests were carried out on the island.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The analysis is with LGC which has the contract since 2018. LGC is in the UK. It was part of a tender. LGC met the criteria and provided best value in 2018. The delivery of the services under the framework has been very strong. It provides services to other authorities as well, which allows for economy of scale. There is some benefit in that from an IHRB point of view with regard to benefiting from the expertise it has. It works to the specifications set out in the International Federation of Horseracing Authorities' reference laboratory programme. However, it is outside the country.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I have a couple of questions on the greyhound industry-----

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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We are being called for a vote.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Can I have two minutes?

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The industry is very close to my own heart. An Opposition Deputy from Wexford absolutely opposed the closing of Enniscorthy greyhound track, as I did at the time. However, when he had an opportunity to support enhanced funding for the track, he voted against it. It beggars belief how he could support it one day and then vote against the funding for the industry a couple of months later. There are private and public tracks. My track in Enniscorthy is a private track. However, there is considerable anecdotal evidence that a number of public tracks throughout the country are losing considerable amounts of money and that our support of the Irish Greyhound Board, IGB, funds are keeping these tracks open. I know the IGB is recruiting for a new CEO at present. I forget what exactly the salary is but there are other employees within the IGB who are earning more than the CEO. That is a little bit strange to me. Maybe I am being told something that is not true. I do not know but I believe if the IGB is to get a good, credible candidate, the salary should be increased. I am not sure whether the Minister has been approached about this. It has lost quite a number of CEOs in a short number of years. I ask that the Minister look into whether there are other employees within the IGB on more money than the chief executive. The CEO is leading the organisation and is responsible for it. The Minister should look into it. I urge him to increase the salary of the CEO of the IGB because, if we are to get good, credible candidates-----

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Okay.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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It is quiet up there. We might have another couple of minutes.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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If the Minister says we are okay, you may go on.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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If we were to increase the salary, we would get a better, credible candidate.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I have not been approached about this. The Department is not aware of the salaries of Rásaíocht Con Éireann, RCÉ, staff but I can reflect on it and make inquiries.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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If somebody else in the organisation is on more money than the CEO, something is wrong within the organisation. It may be historical - I do not know. However, the CEO should be the most senior and the highest paid.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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That should be the way in an organisation.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I ask the Minister to reflect on the public and private tracks because the private tracks are doing a fantastic job. My track in Enniscorthy was threatened with closure and I know it will come before the IGB but it has done a considerable amount of work. I commend it on what it has done.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I know it is a very strong track.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Why should we close a track that is doing very well, when other tracks which are not doing as well are being kept open because of Government funding?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Point taken. The Deputy is a very strong advocate of the track.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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On behalf of the committee, I thank the Minister and the Department officials for assisting us in our consideration of the horse and greyhound fund regulations 2022. In accordance with Standing Orders, a message will be sent to the Clerk of the Dáil and the Clerk of the Seanad to say the committee has completed its consideration of the regulations.