Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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The purpose of the meeting is to consider a further Revised Estimate for 2017 for the Department of Rural and Community Development, Vote 42, in the amount of €146,742,000 to meet the expenses of the Office of the Minister for Rural and Community Development, including certain services.

In the absence of Deputy Joe Carey, I am stepping in as Acting Chairman. I welcome the Minister for Rural and Community Development, Deputy Michael Ring, and his Minister of State, Deputy Seán Kyne, and their officials. As this is the first meeting of the committee, I convey our best wishes to the Minister and the Minister of State in their challenging roles. We look forward to the committee engaging productively and proactively with the Minister in the period ahead.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the select committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. The opening statement and any other documents that have been submitted to the committee will be published on its website after the meeting.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite the Minister, Deputy Ring to make his presentation.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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Yes, we will.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Chairman and members. I wish the committee well in its role over the coming months and years. My responsibilities include in the area of rural development, responsibility for the oversight of the work of the Western Development Commission and of the Atlantic economic corridor task force, functions relating to the Department's input on rural broadband and the national planning framework, overview of a number of the funding schemes under the community programme, responsibility for the Charities Regulatory Authority, excluding appointments of members of the board of the authority, and the responsibility for the Control of Dogs Act.

I am also responsible for identifying and advising on issues affecting rural communities with the business community arising from Britain's exit from the European Union. In relation to broadband, to complement the work of my colleague, Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment, Deputy Naughten, preparing for the timely roll-out of broadband is a key priority will see a very significant level of new investment under the national broadband plan, NBP. The NBP’s ambition is to achieve 100% coverage of high speed broadband across Ireland. This is being done through a combination of accelerated commercial investment by telecoms operators, together with a State intervention to deliver access to high speed broadband to those parts of the country where there is no certainty that the commercial sector will invest. My Department is working with local authorities to ensure there are no local barriers to deployment and identifying priority areas for roll out. A provision of €2 million has been allocated to my Department for this task in 2017.

The Department also has lead responsibility for developing the relationship with the State and community and voluntary sector and for setting the policy framework. This sector has €12.7 million budgeted in 2017. The Department’s community and voluntary supports and programmes provide a cohesive framework of support for the community and voluntary sector. This supports volunteer centres and volunteer information services nationwide, as well as a number of national organisations such as Volunteer Ireland and Young Social Innovators. The funding of all these organisations is designed to strengthen and foster volunteerism in Ireland, building a support structure for volunteering locally from the bottom up. This is key to the Department’s citizen engagement objectives and supports the spirit of participation in communities.

The scheme to support national organisations in the community and voluntary sector, SSNO, is a key element of the State’s support for the role of the sector. The SSNO provides multi-annual funding towards core costs of national organisations in the sector, with a focus on organisations that provide supports to those who are disadvantaged.

The Revised Estimates provide for €4.4 million in current funding in 2017 for the charities regulatory authority, CRA. The charities regulator is Ireland's national statutory regulator for charitable organisations. It is an independent authority which was established on 16 October 2014 under the Charities Act 2009 and now comes under the remit of my Department. The general function of the regulator is to regulate charitable organisations operating in Ireland, in order to increase public trust and confidence in their management and administration. The regulator is independent in the performance of its statutory functions. Since its establishment in 2014, great progress has been achieved by the CRA. By the end of September this year, 8,748 charities were registered. Other important milestones achieved include the completion of an independent organisational review to define the resources required to implement the Charities Act, 2009, and the publication of a strategic plan for 2016-2018. I am delighted to be working with the Minister, Deputy Ring, in this new Department.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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I call Deputy Ó Cuív.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Ba mhaith liom comhghairdeas a dhéanamh leis an Aire tar éis dó bheith ceaptha mar Aire Forbartha Tuaithe agus Pobail. I would like to congratulate the Minister on his appointment. We all have the good of rural Ireland at heart. As time will be limited, I am going to focus on five general themes and then presumably we will get a chance to go through it subhead by subhead. There are an awful lot of questions here and our job as a committee is to question and to raise the issues that we think are neglected. I do not envy the Minister his task. However, I think overselling his powers could be a dangerous thing. He says that he has a cross-Government mandate. If he truly has, that is hugely important and there is an immediate urgent task on hand. No doubt he has seen the draft national planning framework. It is totally biased against rural communities. Is the Minister willing to engage with this committee to work with us to ensure that planning framework when it is finalised gives fair play to rural communities up and down the country?

Is the Minister willing to engage, hear what we have to say and discuss the submissions we have made regarding that framework? That will be an acid test of what cross-Government mandate he really has.

I have made this third point before and I sincerely believe it. The Department of Rural and Community Development does not have enough functions. A report will be published soon from the previous Joint Committee on Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, and it will propose giving a lot more functions to the Department. I have no doubt that the Minister will be cheering us on, as will his officials, because Departments love to be given functions. However, it seems absolutely ridiculous to have a Minister for Rural and Community Development with a spend of €80 million, out of a total State spend of about €60 billion. The kind of functions that would obviously lie with the Department would be the rural social scheme, farm assist, the community services programme, the community employment scheme, the rural transport programme, etc. We need to return to this topic another day, because the Department just does not have the functions it will need if it is to deliver on its mandate. The Minister of State, Deputy Sean Kyne, spoke fairly quickly, and I could not write everything he said down in time. Could the Minister circulate to each member of the committee a list of the functions that he is retaining, referenced by sub-head. I believe in always following the money. What sub-heads does he have, and what sub-heads does his Minister of State have? Can he confirm that delegated sanction has been given to the Minister of State?

As a fourth point, I believe a historic opportunity has been missed in the setting up of this Department. There are now 17 Departments, including the Department of the Taoiseach, even though there are only 15 Cabinet Ministers. There was the fantastic situation of setting up a brand new Department, but the Government sent a very bad signal about its attitude towards rural Ireland by headquartering the Department of Rural and Community Development in Dublin. There was no need or reason for this. The normal personnel issues of people being in situ were not a challenge. The Government could have gone to the broad Civil Service and recruited someone who wanted to be a Secretary General in a rural area, people who wanted to work in the accounts division and so on. Experience has shown us that when people take Civil Service jobs in rural locations the problem arises in getting them to come back to Dublin, not in getting them out. There are more than enough people at the top level willing to work in rural Ireland.With modern technology there is no difficulty in working from remote locations now. The only regular travel involved might be the Secretary General coming to Dublin one day per week.

Then there is the issue of finance. The Minister will know that I have been pursuing this for a long time. The spend on the community side, most of which was previously in the remit of the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment is not too bad. That is, 89% of the current spend has been used and one would expect that at this time of the year. Some 60% of the cap has been spent - that is small, but not disastrous. However, let us focus on the rural side. On 10 November 2017, ten months and one week into the year, the Minister has only spent 42% of the current expenditure. Normally, one would expect that at this time of the year the figure would be higher than 80% of current expenditure. Can the Minister provide a global explanation of how this has occurred? I am not asking for a line-by-line explanation, as we will come back to those issues. When I look at the capital spend, the situation gets even more serious. The Department has €67,389,000 in capital in its budget, and as of 10 November, only €13.999 million, 20% of the total, has been spent. That means that to have a full spend, the Minister will now have to spend 80% of the capital in the month and a half between now and the end of the year.

Furthermore, at the end of 2016, the Department prepaid local authorities €28 million for work that they had not done, work only sanctioned in December 2016. This is something I have never seen before. According to the last information I was given, which I got a few weeks ago, some €11 million of that had still not been spent. Any question of pre-paying local authorities at the end of this year will add insult to injury where under-spend is concerned. Furthermore in that regard, I notice that there is an intention to pay local authorities for work done on the local improvement schemes, LIS , up to 17 November on their own say-so, without any inspection. I must seriously question this. Not only will the Department pay them for that work, it will pay them for all of the LIS roads, hoping on a wing and a prayer that they will do them by the end of the year. I have had a lot of experience dealing with local authorities over the years. I was on a local authority, and then I had a lot of experience dealing with them in previous roles I had in the Oireacthas. To be quite honest, I would not give them the money until it was spent and I had a chance to inspect that the work was done to standard. It is a normal procedure. Let us be honest about it; if the Government was giving a housing grant of €4,000 to somebody, they would not give it unless they were satisfied that the work was done to the standard that was outlined. There seems to be a crisis of non-spend in the part of the Department that the Minister actually brought over with him from the Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht. He owes it to us to tell us whether he is going to hand massive amounts of money back to the Exchequer and carry forward10%, or is he again going to pre-pay local authorities for work not done? It is an utter crisis at this stage.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I am delighted to be on this committee, and I am delighted to see Mayo and Galway joining forces within the Department. I look forward to working with both the Minister, Deputy Ring and Minister of State, Deputy Kyne, to provide for rural and community development over the next number of years.

I have three questions at this stage. In the programme for Government it was agreed that the Western Development Commission will have an enhanced role under this Government. What type of enhanced role will it have? What additional functions is it going to be given to make it more active and more effective within rural Ireland?

I also note from recent announcements that the western regional audio-visual producers fund has been set up. I would like to know how that is going to be funded and how much funding it will receive.

Listening to the Minister, Deputy Ring, I welcome all of the funding that has been allocated to the Ceantair Laga Árd-Riachtanais programme, CLÁR, to town and village renewal, to the LIS and to recreational schemes, which are a valuable source of development for rural Ireland. Deputy Ó Cuiv raised the issue of local authorities. I wonder if the Minister would consider bringing other organisations on board to deliver some of these programmes. Given the structures that they have, the local authorities may not have the resources to deliver these projects in a timely fashion at this stage. There has been a huge amount of cutbacks to the local authorities. They may not have the resources of the management teams to deliver. Would the Minister consider other organisations, such as Údarás na Gaeltachta, the Western Development Commission or the companies funded by the LEADER rural development programme as vehicles by which this funding could be rapidly delivered into the communities?

My last point relates to the national planning framework, but it also concerns the Atlantic economic corridor, AEC, which was in the programme for Government, and where that sits within the Department. I suggest that we should bring the people who are involved in the AEC before this committee at some stage to give us a presentation on it. It is the only vehicle by which we will once and for all create balanced development in this country and create that counterbalance required to alleviate the pressure on the east coast ìn order that people can work and live in their own parishes into the future, for their children and grandchildren.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The problem also applied to the Minister's time at the Department of Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. It had totally underspent and totally undersanctioned long before the Minister's Department was set up. It would have wound up with the same underspend as the Minister's new Department. With all due respect, the Minister was the Minister of State in that Department with responsibility for rural affairs. That does not wash.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I will reply to Deputy Canney's questions on the Western Development Commission, WDC. An enhanced role for the WDC is being developed through its participation in a number of committees, including the implementation committees which oversee the delivery of the Action Plan for Jobs for the west and north-west region, the monitoring committee for the Action Plan for Jobs for rural development and the task force to progress the concept of the Atlantic economic corridor along the western seaboard. The WDC is an active part of the subgroup of this task force which is mapping out the options for EU funding which could support the development of the western region and has also assisted the Department in participating in and reporting on a public dialogue on the implications of Brexit in the thematic areas of rural communities, regional SMEs, culture, the Irish language and heritage and outdoor recreation.

In addition, the WDC is an important part of the wider focus on regional development by the Government which also includes a deeper role in economic development by the local authorities and the regional assemblies. The WDC’s involvement in an increasing number of initiatives such as those outlined above go beyond the role the body has played to date but I am open to a further role for the WDC. I met with the CEO, Ian Brannigan, and the chair of the board, Deirdre Garvey, a couple of weeks ago in Ballaghadereen. They have played a strong role and I know that they can play a further role and I am open to suggestions and ideas for a further enhanced role for the WDC.

Reference was made to the WRAP, Western Regional Audiovisual Producers, fund which was very well received. I had the pleasure of launching that in October last in Galway. The fund was set up through the WDC in conjunction with the Irish Film Centre as well. The fund is worth €2 million and operates in conjunction with local authorities in Clare, Donegal, Galway, Leitrim, Mayo, Roscommon and Sligo. It is funded through the WDC investment fund, which was specified in the Act. The WDC has been able to provide €2 million in funding to help develop the sector. It is part of the Action Plan for Jobs under Action 144 of the Government’s action plan to develop and implement an action plan to support the film industry in Galway and the western region and support the potential for a regional film fund. That is being led by the WDC, the Irish Film Centre and the local authorities. The fund has been very well received by all local authorities in the area and by the sectors. It is hugely important and has great potential. We know the film sector in Galway has a great history and great work is being done at present there and the fund will add to its potential.

The Atlantic economic corridor is being developed through the chambers of commerce in the west. The IDA had a predecessor concept which was known as the western arc. The concept was promoted in the discussions for the programme for Government in which Deputy Canney and Deputy Fitzmaurice were involved and it was taken on board by the Government. The initiative has been led by the chambers of commerce and includes the City and County Management Association, CCMA, the western regional authorities and the southern regional assembly. It was proposed in February 2016. The overarching objective is to maximise the assets of the western region from Kerry to Donegal and to connect the economic hubs, clusters and catchment areas in the region to attract investment, support job creation and contribute to enhanced quality of life for those who live in that region.

I chaired the previous task force and I attended the one previous to that and there were probably one or two meetings prior to that as well which were attended by the Minister, Deputy Ring. It is at an early stage but much work has been done already and there are subcommittees in place for infrastructure and communications and work is being done on websites and promotional videos. Much work is being done with various bodies including universities and institutes of technology. The meeting in Galway took place in NUIG and the meeting prior to that took place in Sligo in the Building Block which is the innovation hub in the centre of the town. I believe the concept has great potential and it is fully supported. We have included it and its role in the national planning framework in the submission we made through this Department and I hope that will be taken on board by the Minister. Any support the committee can give in that regard would be very welcome.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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We must keep focused or else we will get bogged down. Deputy Canney is a great example of how to be focused, targeted and brief while still making his points. I call Deputy Carol Nolan.

Carol Nolan (Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I will be brief. I wish to look at two issues. The Leader programme is a very efficient source of funding but there have been serious problems. I accept the Minister's point that 31 changes will be made to the programme but there are 18 bureaucratic steps to be taken by local community groups in order to access funding. That is proving to be a nightmare. It is my understanding that only 335 projects have been approved to date compared to more than 2,800 during the first two years of the previous programme. Would it not make more sense to bring back the old programme? I do not understand why it changed. It does not make sense to try to fix something if it is not broken. It would make more sense to bring back the old Leader model as it proved more efficient in terms of communities being able to drawn down funding. I am aware from representations in my constituency office that communities are experiencing serious difficulty and I want to bring that message to the Minister and call on him to examine the possibility of bringing back the old model.

I welcome the reinstatement of the local improvement scheme but should there not be a separate allocation for the scheme rather than taking it from the Leader budget, which I understand has been the case. Such a scheme should have a standalone allocation.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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I call Deputy Niamh Smyth. Deputy Nolan's contribution is a very good example to her.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank both Ministers for their presentations. I congratulate the Minister of State, Deputy Ring, on his promotion to the Ministry. It is one of the most important Departments when one considers the size of the island and how much of it is rural.

I welcome the Minister's comment that he is open to discussion with the committee on the national planning framework. Rural areas need much work and investment, including basic infrastructure.

We have no rail, airports, or anything of that nature in Cavan and Monaghan so we are totally dependent on a very good road network. As I have pointed out in the Dáil Chamber, if one were to look at a map of Ireland one would see a motorway that cuts from Dublin to Galway with all other motorways to major cities south of that. North of that line - Sligo, Cavan, Monaghan - these motorways are non-existent. When it comes to developing a major road network, we have been completely forgotten. There was a plan many years ago for an east-west link that would open up the whole north-east corridor from Dundalk to Sligo, taking in the whole Border region. I urge the Minister and his Department to look at this matter very seriously and consider what influence he might have on the national planning framework, which will be critical in light of Brexit.

The Minister spoke to us of the many funding streams for which he is responsible: LEADER; CLÁR; local improvement schemes,LIS; and Revitialising Areas by Planning, Investment and Development, RAPID. These are hugely important at national as well as constituency level and rural areas like Cavan-Monaghan are extremely dependent on them. Under the town and village renewal scheme, for example, Cavan was allocated a handsome €380,000. Up until October of this year, as I understand it, only €57,000 had been spent. I am very concerned by this because I have only to step outside my door to see areas that could massively benefit from this money. In Bailieborough, for example, we have a major social housing scheme called Drumbannon which was the first of a number of such schemes in the town. Drumbannon backs onto the next housing estate, Woodview, and there are a number of alleyways running between them which are crucial for providing simple pedestrian access from one estate to the other. For years the residents have been complaining about the lack of pedestrian access, and rightly so, but according to my information the council has been unable to source any funding to address this. When I then hear that the council had been allocated €380,000 under the town and village renewal scheme and that only €57,000 of that figure has actually been spent, I am concerned at the reasons for such a delay and at what it might be that is restricting our councils from getting that money to where it is so badly needed.

In 2016, meanwhile, almost half a million euro was allocated to Cavan County Council under the CLÁR funding scheme, but again only slightly more that €100,000 of that was actually spent on projects, a major underspend in relation to the total allocation. I ask the question again: what is restricting our councils here? My information on this suggests that public consultations do not perhaps have the staff resources in place to get that money out. The notion of giving this money to local authorities and then leaving them in the position where they are unable to spend it concerns and worries me greatly, especially when there are areas that badly need that money. I urge the Minister to engage with the local authorities to see how they might be enabled to get that money out.

I welcome the fact that the Minister has brought back the local improvement scheme, which had been discontinued in 2008, and is badly needed. The roads departments in our local authorities have been building up application after application over the past ten years, and by this stage they are gathering dust. It is hugely important that the Minister has brought the LIS back into play for our local authorities, though I agree with Deputy Nolan that it is unfortunate that one has to rob Peter to pay Paul in this regard. Traditionally there was a specific allocation for the LIS and this should be reintroduced so that no other Department or scheme will suffer. I welcome the Minister's courage in bringing back this scheme but we need much more because many rural residents depend on it.

I wish to mention the Ulster Canal restoration project, which is another initiative that could open up much of the east-west corridor. The area is very dependent on projects like this one, which has so much capacity to build up our tourism and local economy. Rural areas have so much to benefit from this. I urge the Minister to engage with the Minister for Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Humphreys, as I am sure he has been doing, to ensure that this project progress in a timely fashion because it is crucial for the area.

I agree with Deputy Nolan when it comes to the 18 checks and balances contained in the LEADER funding scheme. LEADER is one of the more successful schemes for rural communities but are 18 checks and balances really necessary? Could these not be scaled back to get the money out there and facilitate community groups in delivering on projects? These checks and balances are certainly not encouraging. Many of the bodies engaging with LEADER are voluntary groups with no paid staff. Our rural communities will suffocate and die without access to that money and the 18 checks and balances are certainly not providing any encouragement. The number of projects in Cavan-Monaghan that had successfully accessed LEADER funding stood in single figures the last time I checked.

I would appreciate it if the Minister could address some of the issues that I have raised here today.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I asked a question about that spend on 7 November and was given a reply with out-of-date figures. It related to the prepayment of €28 million to the local authorities and how much of that was spent. If the Minister has up-to-date figures, will he provide these to the committee? It is very difficult to come into committee meetings-----

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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I am allowing Deputy Nolan in again, if she is brief.

Carol Nolan (Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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On the Leader funding, the Minister suggested that regulations had been imposed by the European Parliament. A Sinn Féin delegation was in Brussels recently, led by our MEP, Liadh Ní Riada. We met a representative from the Court of Auditors who stated that the new changes to the Leader scheme were not imposed by the European Parliament. Where does this come from? They say that the changes did not come from them. Some of the changes were unnecessary. The process could have been kept simpler and we would not need to have met all the groups and go through everything as we have done. My concern, which many Deputies will share, is that the vital funding reaches those on the ground. My understanding is that €8.25 million has been approved from that budget. I would like to see far more money reach those on the ground. It is not necessarily the case that we can blame the European Parliament for everything.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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I call Deputy Smyth to come in briefly.

Niamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Regarding the restrictions on local authorities, they have had these funds and have not been able to spend them. It is that simple.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Here is the bottom line figure. The Government gave out €28 million in December last year. How much of that has been spent in total, between efficient and inefficient authorities?

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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So there is €11 million unspent. That is the figure that I was given.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It is €11.394 million.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Would the Minister ever dream of giving further pre-funding to somebody who has not spent all their money from last year?

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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I am being very lenient because we nearly have the programme scoured.

Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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First I would like to congratulate the Minister and the Minister of State on their appointments. I fought a long time for a standalone Minister for rural and community affairs and we have that now. It is a very important position because rural issues had been slightly left behind down the years. I hope we will be able to address many issues in the future and work closely together.

I will start on a positive note, the local improvements scheme. It is a great scheme. I see some of the examples of that in west Cork, where people need to get their local roads sorted. One has just been finished in Ballineen. I regret that the €10 million for that came out of the Leader budget but it had to come out of some budget. It is delivering and working now.

The Minister spoke about Cork County Council spending only 21%, which stuns me. I would have expected that a local authority when it gets the money would try to get it out as quickly as possible. The Minister, however, must remember that his Government gave them the Leader programme when it should have examined the figures prior to that. Instead, it broke up the excellent system that was there. It probably needed a bit of tweaking to get sorted out but the Government tampered with it and made a complete mess of it. If someone mentioned Leader, development partnership or funding three or four years ago in west Cork everybody would tell them where and how they could get it if they rang a certain number. If it is mentioned now the person would be told to forget about it because it is gone. That is the rumour going around. The local authority was not able to take control of that programme, which had been run very efficiently by the development partnerships. Unfortunately, the Government pulled the plug which has been detrimental to rural communities. I do not need to tell any Deputy here where Leader funding has gone through the years. It looks as if we are coming close to the end of the programme we have at the moment and we have a little over two years left.

The Minister said that the money was not being spent in the last programme but at least they had four years. We are heading for two years left in this programme and there is little or no money spent. Some of the staff from some of the companies have not been paid their redundancy payments which is scandalous and very unfair after they had served people for many years. In my area in west Cork their stamp was remarkable and now it is embarrassing to mention Leader. I would not even mention it at any public meeting when people ask me where they will get funding because it does not happen and it is only frustrating people.

The Minister was in west Cork recently. I am sorry I did not have the opportunity to welcome him but I was not even told he was coming. I assume in my role as a politician that Ministers are Ministers for the people and not for one individual Deputy in one area. The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Ross, who is a member of the Independent Alliance was in west Cork as were the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment, Deputy Naughten and the Minister of State at the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Moran, and when I knew they were coming I let my fellow Deputies know, to be fair to everybody. That did not happen when the Minister for Rural and Community Development came down. Notice did not come from the Department or from the local Deputy. Many of the projects the Minister visited in Drinagh were absolutely delighted to get funding but we were involved in that too. It is important for Ministers to know that when they are in a community they should at least let public representatives know and not politicise the visit.

I sincerely hope that the Minister can get hold of the community employment, CE, schemes. To be fair to the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection, Deputy Regina Doherty, she is a good Minister. One can talk to her and she tries her best to resolve issues but there is a little misunderstanding about CE workers in rural communities. I know people aged 59 or 60 who are delighted to work in their local communities but they are going home now because their time is up and they will never get a job again. They will literally be looking out the window and drawing social welfare instead of being out working for the €20 or €30 extra a week they were getting. They were happy to do that work. The community groups are fighting to keep them and they are fighting to stay because they like the work. They are a loss to the community and are very hard to replace. We are given all the carry-on about unemployment dropping but 60,000 are going onto new schemes and 40,000 are going back on social welfare after going through that system. I hope we can address that. The rural social scheme is another big issue. I hope there will be an extra allocation of workers. They will be better distributed because, unlike the local authority, the West Cork Development Partnership is allocating rural social workers in west Cork in a very fair manner. Our numbers per head of population were very low and I hope we will be looked on more favourably in the new allocation of workers.

I would expect that rural proofing comes under the Minister's brief because it is not working at the moment. There are many announcements about it. The Minister for Health, Deputy Harris mentioned it last week. The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Ross, was not present when I was speaking on the Road Traffic (Amendment) Bill 2017 last night. Where is the rural proofing? The Ministers say they are meeting with the groups and telling them what they are doing. They announce changes happening. The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport said last night when speaking on the Road Traffic (Amendment) Bill 2017 that he met with all the groups but no transport has been put in place to deal with people living in rural isolation which prevents them going for a social drink and causes worry. The same is true of the Public Health (Alcohol) Bill 2017 because shopkeepers are worried about what it will do to their supermarkets. The Minister for Health is ploughing ahead. It is lovely to say we are rural proofing but the Minister needs to sit down and see how he can resolve an issue before he puts a Bill before the people.

With no disrespect to the Minister, the local authority broadband is not going to work at all. It is not working in west Cork. We have seen very little expansion of rural broadband and I am worn out talking to the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment on this issue. It is a big issue. The first thing people will tell any politician knocking on doors, whenever that will be, this year, next year or the year after, is that they have no broadband and that to get mobile phone coverage they have to go upstairs and hang their heads out the window. These issues are not progressing. If Leader was working they could be rolled out through a Leader programme and communities would roll it out for themselves.

I can assure the Minister that if we were to stand back, it would be done then. We did it in Goleen, a rural community near Mizen Head. We rolled out broadband when people did not know what it meant. I did not know what it meant myself to be quite honest. We were able to get it and it was wireless broadband at the time, which was perhaps 15, 16 or 17 years ago, but it has not progressed since. The Government is cherry-picking the big towns and the percentage looks good, but it will put the private operator out of business, which is a serious issue that no one seems to realise. Take a town such as Bantry. If the rural broadband scheme comes in and takes out the town of Bantry, the private operator, who is providing it to all the rural places the scheme will not touch, will be put out of business. I can see us facing broadband crises before the national scheme, which is repeatedly postponed, is rolled out. I will be looking for my pension before we see it happening. We need to be very careful about the road we are travelling. It is nice to be cherry-picking the bigger towns and taking them out of it but, all of a sudden then, the guy who is currently providing broadband will no longer be able to provide it.

I have worries about the Charities Act too. I know and accept that there had to be a lot of cleaning up there. The Minister mentioned it. However, many elderly people in community groups who never caused a problem to anyone in the world are now getting letters from what looks like the Revenue Commissioners and they are extremely worried. Many of them have disbanded. These community groups would have continued away nicely. They might not have been active for two or three years and then they would have come alive again and collected €20,000 for someone who had a serious accident down the road. Not every community group can have an accountant or that kind of expertise, but they worked efficiently. However, they are being made to look very bad now under this Charities Act. The suggestion is that they are being cleaned up now because there is something wrong, although there is not. Many of these groups are being disbanded and I would like clarity about where their moneys are now. Many of them said that they are not going to deal with the new requirements and for the €8,000 or €10,000 in the account to be taken. This money is going back into the system. Is that money being distributed in the community from which it was taken? I attended a recent presentation and it was not clear to me that the money was going back to the community from which it was taken. It should go back to that community because it was genuinely collected there. The group that has disbanded because it is not able to take on the new system has lost that money and the community has lost that money. That issue needs to be addressed.

I had better stop.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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The latitude is unbelievable and it is only the first meeting. I hope I am not here anymore because I would not tolerate this. I call Deputy Burke.

Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I congratulate Deputy Ring on his elevation to a very important portfolio in the Cabinet. I share a rural constituency with the Acting Chairman and we know the importance of having a Minister with responsibility for rural affairs. The Minister of State, Deputy Kyne, has also been of huge assistance to us in successfully securing Cullion fish farm in our constituency.

I see clearly that the Minister's job is to initiate policy. There are 276 actions under five pillars in the rural development plan. We hear the debate about the spend of money in local authorities. To me, there are two key words: "allocate" and "spend". It is the Minister's job to ensure he has the policies in place to allocate money to the local authorities in order that they can spend it. We have to realise, however, that we have a system of local democracy. We pay directors of services and staff in county councils large sums of money and they should be held accountable and spend the money they are given. Deputy Ó Cuív spoke about underspends in local improvement schemes and said that we should be inspecting all these roads and works. Is it the Minister's job to go around holding the hands of those in a local authority to ensure that the works are carried out on every byroad and back road? I do not think so.

Rather than being negative, I will share our experience in Westmeath County Council. I took it upon myself to meet the management team within the county. It was not a huge secret that we have a new Department with responsibility for rural affairs, nor was it a secret that the Minister is setting up this new Department, which will take time, and that he has a big budget which he is trying to get together and ensure he gives to the local authorities. Westmeath County Council restructured its management section and it now has a section that mirrors the Department of Rural and Community Development. This is to ensure that it can spend its money when it gets it and that it puts forward professional applications. We have heard that some of the applications of local authorities under the town and village enhancement schemes were quite poor, but that is a matter for the local authorities.

At budget meetings throughout Ireland, the director of services, the director of finance and the heads of local authorities are going in front of our local elected members, and those members need to be asking where the spends are in all these key areas to ensure that we get accountability. That is the democratic system. On the idea that the Minister would hold the hands of those in a local authority and call in all these county managers to ensure they have spent all their money and to ensure they know they need to take responsibility, they are being paid to do that job. It is the Minister's job to allocate the money to them. Therefore, rather than giving out at length, we should be going back to the local authorities and the members with whom we work in the local authorities and asking them to hold their management to account. We should be asking our local authorities how they are responding to the new Department of Rural and Community Development and how they are ensuring they are in the best possible position to get funding.

I am a member of the Committee of Public Accounts. On dormant accounts, the Comptroller and Auditor General's report for 2016 recommends a review of the 2013 to 2016 disbursement scheme to identify how well the scheme has been implemented and how future schemes can be designed to ensure objectives are met. Has this review been carried out? Will the Minister shed some light on the average net transfers from the dormant accounts and repayments to account holders who make claims? We have an awful lot of schemes now. We have seen how well schemes such as CLÁR and the sports capital grants scheme, which the Minister was in charge of, have delivered to local authorities, especially given we are getting more resources now. It has been a very difficult time but it is important that we all share responsibility. We have heard arguments where people try to bury rural Ireland and say it is dead and gone. It is not. We are trying to target key areas to improve rural areas of Ireland, and rural communities are responding. When they get the money, we must ensure that we, on behalf of the citizens, advocate to ensure that it is spent and that we are not listening to this argument again in the future.

I will mention a critical matter. The Minister asked for shovel-ready projects for some of those schemes. That is what they should be given.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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I thank Deputy Burke for his brevity and call the Minister to respond.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Collins for his questions. With regard to the charities, we all know the importance of the charities sector. I refer not only to the large health-based and education-based charities. There are charities in every town and village and they do valuable work. Unfortunately, there has been bad press regarding some of the charities over recent years, and this has led to a number of changes. The Deputy mentioned that small community groups and elderly people are worried. The statutory consultative panel on the governance of charitable organisations was established in May 2017 to consider how administration, management and governance can be approved and to make recommendations to the regulator on codes of conduct. A public consultation process is currently under way and is due to run until December. Those concerned were in Galway recently. I can obtain a list for the Deputy of everywhere else in the country that will be involved.

We do not want to scare any elderly people involved in working in the charities sector. We want a measured response. As the charities regulator has said, we want a measured response to risk. Therefore, he is dealing initially with the bigger charities in respect of which complaints are made and where there is information given to him about a specific charity in respect of which there are concerns.

On the issue of funds that might be available, each charity should have a founding charter. The charities regulator will be able to step in if there is an issue with a charity to ensure funds that are available are being disbursed in the correct manner.

Irish people are very generous with their time and money. It is a positive step to ensure that whenever they give money to a charity, there will be regulation and good governance. I met the charities regulator recently as part of my new role. There is a lot of work done on this. I stated that the very least people expect regarding every charity is to be able to consult a website to find its accounts and information on its CEO or Accounting Officer. That information should be available. It gives comfort to people and demonstrates that everything is being done correctly and within the law. As I stated, people are very generous and we need to know that their money is put to good use.

With regard to rural broadband, the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment is the main Department responsible. What we were doing in our Department is funding rural broadband officers through every local authority. They are the points of contact for the telecommunications sector and people who have issues and complaints. They play a key role daily in the improvement of telecommunications and broadband services in general by assisting through engagement with a number of key commercial stakeholders, through participation in the regional action groups facilitated by the Department and through engagement with local communities and businesses. The officers comprise a dedicated point of contact with the local authority for telecommunications operators. They are involved at present as part of the mobile phone and broadband task force, which arose through the programme for Government discussions. The Deputy was involved in the early days himself along with others to advocate on behalf of those in rural Ireland. The rural broadband officers have emerged from this process. They are very important.

We recently met telecommunications groups and they believe the rural broadband officers are important with regard to their programme and assisting in identifying State lands that can be used for mobile phone masts. The matter of exemptions for telecommunications masts concerns the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government. There is legislation in this regard that is quite outdated. Those concerned are seeking to update it to allow for a greater level of exemption for more modern telecommunications infrastructure. I believe the officers have a very important role to play.

The Minister mentioned the Ludgate facility in Skibbereen. Recently we had an AEC meeting in the Building Block in Sligo town. It is part of Sligo town but obviously serves a rural community. It is an innovation hub and centre for people to come to. It is a private facility. There is a lot being done on the rolling out of broadband.

On the larger issues concerning the national broadband plan, on 26 September last there was an initial bid involving two companies, namely Eir and Enet. They are being assessed. The process is slower than one would like but we do not want to do anything that will end up causing further delays or to have undue preference given to any company. We need to ensure everything goes through methodically. I appreciate that the process might be slower than we would wish but we need to ensure it does not give rise to court challenges that might cause delays in the future. Considerable work was done on mapping the country, down to the level of individual houses. On broadband.gov.ieone can determine what houses have been served under the initial commitment contract with Eir. Some 300,000 houses have had broadband rolled out to them. The main complaint received in my office is from houses that are close to the areas where Eir is rolling out broadband. The broadband might be going up a certain road, but not to every house on it. The broadband officers in each local authority area are taking note of such complaints. Where they can make a valid case — where, for example, there is a school or business close to the end of the broadband line being rolled out by Eir — it can be examined by Eir.

We want to become the first country where 100% of rural houses are connected to broadband. It is not as if we are playing catch-up with any other country. We have particular challenges arising from the low-density population. We want to see every rural house connected.

Deputy Burke made a number of points on the Dormant Account Fund. A review of the scheme was due within three years of its being adopted, namely by December 2016. It has not been carried out. There was a review in regard to the work programme for the period 2017 to 2019 but the full review that the Comptroller and Auditor General might have recommended has not been carried out. We intend to carry it out as part of our work programme.

One of the issues is that responsibility for the dormant accounts has been transferred to three Departments in 18 months. We now have responsibility. I hope my Department is the permanent home for it. With regard to the fund itself, €509 million has been transferred thereto since its establishment in 2003. The net transfers to the fund after repayments where account holders make claims have averaged approximately €26 million per year since 2004. An action plan was agreed with the Department and signed off by the Minister, Deputy Michael Ring, before the transfer of functions. Under this agreement, Departments can seek to gain access to the funds for disbursement.

Recently, I signed off on access for the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport. A number of other bodies will be making submissions to me for signing off as well. There is a pot of money available and strict guidelines over where it can be spent, for example, disadvantaged communities and educational disadvantage. We will await further claims from Departments for disbursement moneys.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I thank the Minister and Minister of State for their presentations. I wish them well in their work.

Many Departments deal with the issue of rural Ireland. The Minister and Minister of State come from rural Ireland and understand it. In terms of budgets, stamp duty and so on, could this committee or the Ministers present ask the Taoiseach for their Department to be allowed to rural proof every proposal or be given a veto when other Departments take measures that would not help rural Ireland? For example, agriculture is a major part of rural Ireland and the Ministers present understand it. Could we have a system in which they would have the main say and be able to block or, to be positive, improve something?

As for planning, can the Ministers do anything about the attempt to prevent one-off housing? Have they any say in the matter? It is good to see people returning to work but areas are struggling to keep workers for the schemes the Department is trying to deliver such as Tús, the CE scheme and the rural social scheme, RSS, In fairness, however, the number of RSS workers has increased. A guillotine drops in that if people have their year, three years or whatever done, they are gone. That problem is not the responsibility of the Ministers but it is not being addressed by the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection. Could they influence the issue? The amount of work that is done by Tidy Towns groups and so on in rural areas is incredible.

I commend our guests on the local improvement scheme, LIS. If possible, it should be announced earlier in the year, money should be made available for participants who can meet the percentage threshold by June or July and the work should be hit in the back end. Galway County Council has moved well on this but, in fairness to councils, the scheme is announced in September or whenever, documents are then received and participants are finally told whether their roads will be done. However, they might not be able to gather enough money and the Department will have to move on to the next road. Could we address the window of opportunity?

The Minister of State, Deputy Kyne, the then Minister, Deputy Kelly, and I sat down in Athlone. From Limerick to Dublin to Newry to Belfast and from Cork to Dublin to Newry to Belfast, the west of Ireland was taken out of TEN-T funding by the current Taoiseach in 2012. The programme for Government contains a commitment to cover the Border, midlands and western region with TEN-T funding. This does not pertain to the Department of Rural and Community Development but while its Ministers have been trying to get rural Ireland thriving, the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport has been doing nothing in this regard. The programme for Government commits to helping that area of the country. Can the Ministers do anything in this regard?

What are the Ministers' views on the national planning framework? I made a submission and held meetings in seven counties. On reading it, I may as well not have gone anywhere. Could the Ministers have some input into it?

I agree we cannot grab local authorities by the neck and tell them to spend money but there needs to be accountability. If someone is not doing his or her job in a local authority with regard to providing services to people, questions must be asked of that person's capability to do the job.

In terms of rural Ireland, the Department of Rural and Community Development is caught between a rock and a hard place but we need infrastructure. Given where they are from, the Ministers are well aware of that. Plans have been drawn up for the Atlantic economic corridor but we need only listen to the news. Yesterday, for example, we heard that €100 million was going to be spent on trains for somewhere else. Fair play, and that is good, but we are hearing that we are going to lose trains in our part of the country. Where can the Ministers make an input? Will the Taoiseach give them the power that is required? I have known the Minister for a while. If he has money, he will spend it, and the Minister of State is trying his best. However, if they do not have the clout to pull others back who have gone off on a tangent and tell them what needs to be done, we will not have balanced regional development. Can something be done in that regard?

I attended the agriculture committee yesterday, which discussed a new EU regulation on fisheries and catch that has to be thrown out of a boat. I am no expert on fisheries, but will any problem that arises for coastal communities in that regard be solved?

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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I wish the Minister and Minister of State well in their important roles in promoting, sustaining and revitalising rural Ireland. Every member of the committee is a part of the rural framework. The Ministers know how important rural communities are and how many feel left behind and isolated. I do not need to give the Minister any advice, but it is important that he not be stymied in his work or become a prisoner of bureaucracy. I do not believe that he has ever been partial to that.

A number of issues have been raised. My colleague, Deputy Burke, was correct. When I was a local authority member and there was a local improvement scheme, I raised hell and high water. It is up to local authority members to ensure that their share of the money from the November Estimates is provided. What is going on? Westmeath County Council is still proactive in terms of the LIS. Abolishing that scheme was the greatest scandal ever. It was the only way that people living down boreens in the back of God knows where could get a road. I know of people who had been left out of places until we got them into the scheme. I would not worry about these roads - they were the best. I have returned to a road that was done 20 years ago. It is still in place. They are brilliant roads. They carry tractors and everything else. The cost-benefit analysis of LIS is positive. If the Department's officials are worried about it, they should not be. Let their hair go grey about something else instead. The LIS is very positive.

The health boards left a notorious mess when they did away with the small grants for people to install back ramps, doors or toilets in their houses. Those grants were positive, but someone in the Comptroller and Auditor General's office or somewhere else decided that there was not enough supervision or the like. Those things could be done locally within three or four weeks without bureaucracy. The first question a bureaucrat asks is about how not to do something rather than how to do it. Let us be clear on that. I want the Minister to clear out many of these obstacles.

I am disappointed to hear about Leader. I have no interest in Leader now because I agree with my colleagues. The last thing anyone wants to do is get into the claptrap of form filling. Not everyone is computer literate. The people on the ground are giving it their best. Let us advocate for them. Not all of them are whizz kids getting 650 points. They have been the backbone of rural Ireland helping to keep us going. Having so much form filling is ridiculous.

I support a group that has received a bit of money through Leader. That is welcome. It has come into an additional bit of money and will use it on improving a building that does not relate to the grant. Due to the bureaucracy of the scheme, however, that might not be possible. I will give an example. A group gets €40,000 from the Department through Leader to carry out work and it gets €50,000, €60,000 or €70,000 from someone else to undertake different enhancement work. The new money is not grant aided. The group was just lucky to get that money from someone else, although not a State body. We will call it "private".

I hope those responsible for Leader will not stop that group, any Leader group or anybody else. I will bring down the place if I hear that and tear lumps out of somebody in the Dáil, because I will not stand for that type of nonsense. Deputy Burke and I have spoken about the N4, which is going into the west of Ireland, right through from Bunbrosna. We have everything ready, including corridors and so on. We are ready to rock. That will bring one to Sligo, will open up into Donegal and will go across to Castlebar. It is an important arterial road and network. Fair play to Westmeath County Council for the N52. We have to take a bow. It goes from Delvin to Kilbeggan and tremendous work has been done on it. That is the main north east to south west arterial route right through the country and we have to try to get money for it. There are plenty of places where we can spend money.

The Royal Canal is one of the most important projects ever undertaken in this country. Deputy Ó Cuív was involved as a Minister and the current President of Ireland was involved. The restoration of the Royal Canal was one of the most important projects ever to take place with regard to tourism. It is a wonderful amenity for tourism, leisure and general activity. Thousands of people go to it and good money was spent on it. There is a small spur of the Royal Canal which leads into Longford town, however, and money is needed to complete that.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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Am I right? I bet Deputy Ó Cuív remembers that. That has not been done. How could a Department of any description in this State do 95% of the job and leave the critical 5% not done? One can have all the Comptroller and Auditor Generals in the world but it is no good if jobs are not finished. It is vital for that spur into Longford to be completed. Let us complete the footpaths from Abbeyshrule to Clondra. This is what we get for the Royal Canal and for the Grand Canal. This is all joined up. We have everything there. Thousands of people go to it.

I have been advocating the Sparkassen model and I wore the Minister's head out. I know he has great patience listening to me. I have been advocating this as something that is safe and will not compete with the credit unions or post offices but will complement them. I know the Kerr report is available and we are still waiting for its implementation. That was a tremendous report. I will be partial and say that we did great work on that in government. Bobby Kerr brought forward great recommendations but, whatever happens, people become paralysed the minute a report is available. They throw it up and never want to see it again. A good, proactive report was produced and now the Sparkassen model has been raised, with German people coming in, who attended a committee about finance and such. We were advocating such a system long before some of those people heard of it. I asked the Minister a question about in the Dáil. I am advocating it. We have a pilot project ready in the midlands that will take this on. We need to get money to small entrepreneurs that Deputies Fitzmaurice and Ó Cuív were talking about. The banks are still not lending to those small people. If the post office never comes together, with this, small businesses have an opportunity to get financial assistance. The Sparkassen model does not want to take over anything. It just wants to help, mentor and provide. I think that is an ideal opportunity.

I hate to have to raise this. Safety in rural Ireland is awful. I heard an awful story yesterday evening from part of my constituency. It is frightening that elderly people have been robbed three times in the last two years. Their jeep was stolen two years ago. They were robbed again three weeks ago and again at the weekend. They live in a rural area in County Westmeath. Their son rang me in an awful state. It is frightening how elderly people who have helped to build this country, members of a farming community, say they feel threatened, unsafe and frightened. I do not know if it is in the Minister's remit but will CCTV, security and technology improvements be installed on advanced roadways, major networks and such? It is a sad day when we have to even ask the Minister about this. What has become of us as a people when we have to do this to try to help and protect our people who live in the hearts of our communities and who made a major contribution all their lives?

On the matter of broadband, what is Eir up to? Outside Mullingar, I know a businesswoman who lives beside her brother, right next door. There is a pole and infrastructure to facilitate her. She does not get the broadband and her brother does and she is a businesswoman. They are as close together as Deputy Fitzmaurice and I are at present. How can Eir justify that? I think its members sit above in an administrative office like this, drawing lines and saying that is where a service will stop, using this new Eircode or whatever else. The Minister of State, Deputy Kyne, should call Eir's representatives in and ask them to account for that nonsense. The rural area of my own village of Ballynacargy is covered by the broadband service, which stops at Sonna which is where my wife is from, so that is brave. The village of Ballynacargy with businesses such as garages and other new ones trying to start up, was not covered. The service did not come down the road to where there is a big population. One would want to sack those in Eir, not give them more, for the way they have behaved. They should be put out. I have good friends working there and they cannot understand it.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I will give one example that came up yesterday. We addressed this in the last few weeks. A new school was built in Monksland, which has high-speed broadband. There is a business across the road from it that cannot work a card machine at times. I contacted Eir. Skullduggery is going on. I am not blaming Government but Eir. Eir told me that business was from a different box. I asked why it could not join the business to another box and help it. There was an announcement by another provider that it was coming into the area. Deputy Penrose is right that businesses are starved because of what is going on.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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We do not have to reinvent the wheel to get technology to rural Ireland. Let us imitate what is happening in Ludgate. That is a beacon of hope to rural communities. Get money to various other groups like that across rural Ireland and they will survive and thrive. Kick bureaucracy out the gate because otherwise rural Ireland will be strangled.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I set it up.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The national planning framework was mentioned and I know the Department has made a submission to the lead Department, which is the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government. This is a very important plan. I am not sure if the previous rural affairs committee had the Department officials before them but I suggest, as a priority but with respect to the committee, that officials within the housing Department be invited in with regard to the national planning framework. It is at the end of preparation stages and the Department has made a strong case for a number of areas. I know the chief executive officers in Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim, if not Roscommon as well, have asked under the national planning framework that Sligo be identified as a driver in the north west. I particularly agree with that and if the letter has not been sent, I know I have prepared one for the Taoiseach on that basis. As has been pointed out on many occasions, north of the line from Galway to Dublin there is no city at present, as we understand, and we need to encourage a strong growth centre in a region like Sligo. There are many other places that will grow organically within the Dublin region or in the midlands in close proximity to road and rail. We hope that if it happens there will be an added stimulus to the infrastructure that is needed, whether this is the motorways or western rail corridor, which was also included in the submission we made in support of that project. The continuation to Tuam, Claremorris and onwards is supported in our submission.

The national planning framework is very important to role of the Atlantic economic corridor as well. It is strongly of the view that the north-west region must be clearly identified in the national planning framework and the capital plan for investment. We have made our submissions and the Minister will be fighting for this at Cabinet. I raised this within our own party but the other Department is taking the lead. I respectfully advise that an early discussion on the national planning framework would be in order.

The Trans-European Transport Networks in Europe, TEN-T, has been raised with me by the chambers and Galway has done much work on it. There were recent meetings in Brussels about it. This is something we must progress and I hope to see it relating to the Atlantic economic corridor as well. I do not have the latest on it but I will certainly get an update for the Deputy on this. The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Ross, made recent comments to Ms Mairead McGuinness, MEP, and I will try to get the pertinent comments on that. There are particular issues with Galway Port and the port policy, that is up for review again. The island of Malta has five TEN-T ports and we have been left out on the west coast. It is important as well. Deputies mentioned discards in fisheries, which are not under my remit. I am responsible for inland fisheries but not the marine sector. The Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Coveney, worked on that when he had responsibility for the marine but I am not au faitwith it.

Deputy Penrose has the example of a house being a business and Eir, with respect to the company, should be facilitating this. If the Deputy contacts his local Westmeath broadband officer or passes on the details, I can bring it up with Eir. It is a case in point.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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We should be fair to Eir and everybody involved. Eir got the notion of doing a rural roll-out and there was great difficulty in the Department dealing with this. People were saying it will be done or it will not be, etc. Eventually, an agreement was signed that Eir would do a certain area and no more or less. We must be careful. Is it a fact that if Eir started to extend beyond those agreed borders, the rural broadband plan would have to be remapped and we would start once again on this roundabout that has been going on for years? What we need is quite simple; we need the Government to step in fast with a national rural broadband programme and put fibre in every house and business in the country.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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That is what we are doing.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Rather than dumping on a company, will the Minister of State confirm that if it suddenly expanded beyond the area agreed, there would have to be remapping and we would go back to square one?

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The company has agreed on the 300,000 households.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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If it does 350,000 or 400,000 premises, would there not need to be remapping?

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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No. There is scope for short extensions for businesses and schools.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It is in the contract.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister, Deputy Naughten, has stated it.

I seek clarification on how much more we can ask for, in terms of the threshold, without the remapping malarkey starting all over again.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The mapping was done specifically to reach the individual house level in terms of the national broadband plan. Everybody wants to speed up its roll out but first we must consider the consequences of, for example, taking a step too far or missing an important step in procurement. This is State aid that must be agreed with the Commission, which is what this is about. We are down to two bidders - Eir and enet. We must be careful in terms of the stages that we take. We all want to see high speed broadband rolled out to every house as quickly as possible.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, everywhere.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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We do not want to do anything, and I am sure that the Deputy is not recommending that we do anything, that would jeopardise the process or cause untoward delays.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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That is exactly my point.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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That is why we must be very careful.

In terms of the business, we have discussed this matter with the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment. I mean specific examples where a business or a school is in close proximity to the end of the line of one of the 300,000 houses and premises that Eir has committed to rolling out the programme. That matter can be considered. I understand that there is nothing to stop Eir, outside of the 300,000, to roll out broadband as it wishes as a commercial company.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I want to get clarity. Before this we were told that when Eir decided to cater to the 300,000 premises that the whole place had to be remapped. Eir could decide to do the whole country tomorrow.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Yes, it is their company.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Will that mean remapping? If so, we know the delays that will ensue. That is the problem with this kind of EU set-up but that is the way we have to do this.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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We have to be careful. There is a procurement process that involves two companies.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Exactly.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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They sent in their bids on 26 September and Department officials are analysing a series of questions. A lot of work has been done in the mapping process to come down to the amber area that is unmapped. That area is not provided for presently by commercial companies and will be the area for State aid. Within that there is some minor scope. We will get a note from the lead Department, which is the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I want to make one comment about broadband. I propose that the committee invites the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment to attend a debate where we discuss what is happening at present.

The Minister of State, Deputy Kyne, mentioned that one can contact the country broadband officer. In Country Galway thousands of queries about broadband have been lodged. A good number of them were lodged by my office, and I am sure the same applies to his office. The queries are about instances where broadband only goes so far and gaps abound. We are not going to solve the problem here. I estimate that 4,000 queries have been submitted in County Galway. If that situation is replicated over 31 local authorities then one will know the size of the problem. Discrimination has also taken place. Eir has told me that it does not have the capacity, or the juice in the line, to bring the scheme any further. Yet people in business can see from their windows that a house 50 yards further along cannot get a broadband connection. That situation is replicated all over the country. We need to invite the Minister here to debate the issue. I understand that we must be careful with the procurement process and ensure that we do not end up in the courts.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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Yes. We are scheduled to finish at 12 noon.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Acting Chairman sure about that? We have not gone through the Estimates subhead by subhead.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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No, we have not.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I have read all of this material, perused it carefully and formulated many questions. At the beginning of this meeting my comments were just a general introduction. I would like an opportunity to go through the Estimates subhead by subhead.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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We will make as much progress as we can.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Can we adjourn the meeting at 12 o'clock and resume later? We are meant to be examining Estimates here and there is a massive amount of questions.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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The members were probably allowed too much latitude at the beginning of the meeting.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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That is no harm. This is the first meeting. The one thing we should not do is rush our business and thus not do it thoroughly. I know that the Minister for Rural and Community Development and his Minister of State, Deputy Kyne, are anxious that we go through every line of what they are at and show an interest. There is nothing more frustrating for the public servants to spend many hours preparing an interesting and full brief yet not have it discussed in absolute detail line by line. It is also a bit annoying to spend a lot of time reading everything and thinking about it yet not get an opportunity to go through it literally subhead by subhead, which is the normal process as Deputy Penrose knows well.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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I want to get a few replies to my own questions after being very patient and thrown into the job of Acting Chairman.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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I call on Deputy Ó Cuív and we are discussing programme A that deals with rural development and regional affairs.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I refer to subhead A.3 on dormant account measures. Can the Minister tell us the amount of uncommitted funds? In other words, one cannot touch the statutory reserve. Also, schemes have been approved that have not spent the money that was committed to them. How much uncommitted funds reside in the Dormant Account Fund?

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I do not believe that we have that information but we will get it for the Deputy.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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There is a little bit of a lacuna in the law. I mean spending money from dormant accounts is always considered to be Exchequer spending because, technically speaking under the present law, it lives in the fiction that every dime that was every put into dormant accounts from the very beginning could all on some fine day be claimed back by the original owners. We know that the Central Bank when it had notes could decide that some of them had gone missing and would never turn up again, even though if one did find a note one could go back with same.

The dormant accounts scheme has been in existence for a long time. I do not think there has ever been a year when the draw out has been greater than the amount in the new dormant accounts. One would also have first call on any other moneys that existed if it ever happened that there was a year where there was more reclaims than new money, and it should be more than sufficient.

It would give the Exchequer a windfall profit of €300 million or more. Could that issue be examined? I fought that when I was in government but there was an awful reluctance in the Department of Finance to change it. It is absolutely Alice in Wonderland stuff. I would bet that this year there was a €20 million net inflow.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It was €26 million.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, but when one takes out the withdrawals-----

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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€26 million is the net figure.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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On average that is what happening. The idea that some years not only is that going to be nil, but there will be such a draw that all of the money goes back is crazy.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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According to the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, between 2003 to 2016 the amount transferred was €842 million, interest earned was €44 million, less transfers to account holders amounting to €337 million. The net transfers amounted to €549 million, disbursements to implementing Departments came to €275 million, while the operating expenses ran to €15 million. Therefore, the net assets as of 31 December 2016 amounted to €259 million.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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We will allow that there is a statutory reserve so we are probably talking about €200 million. We had it down to €20 million or €30 million when I was there. I know what the problem is, namely, that the Government considers it as new expenditure even though it is coming out of dormant accounts.

How much of the dormant accounts spend now is going to State agencies as opposed to voluntary groups? I ask that the Minister of State would come back to me with that figure because it is very important.

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The only one that was signed off on in my time was to the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport and a lot of that went to the local sports partnerships. Some of it went to different groups like the Irish Athletic Boxing Association. There is a list of such groups that I can supply to the Deputy.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It seems to me that some Departments saw the dormant accounts fund as a source of substitute Government funding for agencies such as the HSE, for example, as opposed to funding for voluntary groups on the ground, which was the original idea.

On subhead A4, did the Department think of putting some of this unspent money into the western investment fund? Since 2011, the Western Development Commission, WDC, has been living off the returns on investments it made in earlier times. Would the Department consider giving it a shot in the arm of €10 million, through the western investment fund, to enable it to really get out there and do something for development?

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I certainly brought that suggestion to the table in recent weeks. The former Taoiseach, Deputy Enda Kenny, allocated €1 million to the WDC for capital expenditure that it was not able to spend. The commission got legal advice that under its remit and establishment Act, it was not able to spend capital. I have read through the Act and do not see where that is specified but that is the advice the commission was given.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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There is a solution to that and Fianna Fáil would certainly facilitate the passage in one day of a two-line Bill. Now, what is the problem?

Seán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Again, I put that to the chairperson of the WDC two weeks ago. I asked that the board discuss the Act and come back to me with any issues it may have with the legislation.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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We have become so legalistic in this place. My attitude to this is that if a person says there is a legal impediment we just change the law. We are the law makers and that is why we are here.

On the national rural development schemes, subhead A5, the Minister should tell us what he expects to have spent under that subhead this year.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I am referring to subhead A5.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I meant the capital-----

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Is it not €11,383,000?

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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My quick calculations indicate that there is just over €10 million left over.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Unlike Deputy Burke, I do not believe in inspecting everything but I do believe in the odd spot check. I saw work that was funded by Departments that was very badly done. It is important and to be honest, it is just good practice.

While the onus is on the local authorities to spend, the onus is on the Minister not to give more money to those who do not spend. As the saying goes, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. If there are people who are not spending or who have not spent the money, it is absolutely vital for the Minister to give it to someone else who will spend it. In that context, I refer to the Leader programme. First, I must take issue with the assertion that the administrative costs of the previous Leader programme amounted to 50%. Obviously, at the very beginning of the programme, administrative costs represent a very high percentage of overall costs. At the moment, for example, they will be running at 80% or 90%. However, administrative costs level off at around 20% across the programme. That has not changed over many Leader programmes and we must correct the record in that regard.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The figure is incorrect. The allowable, between animation and administration, is 20% and that is what it came to in the previous Leader programme.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister can check to his heart's content but I know what I am saying.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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What is also true is that at the beginning administration costs are relatively high. This year, for example, of the €11 million spent on Leader, more than €10 million relates to administration, amounting to 90% of overall costs. I would never throw that at the Minister because I know it levels off over time. We are now at €11 million, with a few hundred thousand euro already paid out under Leader. How much of the €30 million does the Minister expect will be spent? That figure was reduced and I do not agree with Deputy Nolan's view on that. I believe that the Minister was right to take the money out of Leader. Otherwise, it would have gone back to the Exchequer and I would certainly not give any money back to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform if I could avoid doing so. I encouraged the Minister repeatedly with regard to the local improvement scheme, LIS. I encouraged the Minister to set it up and believe he was right to divert the money. Otherwise it would have gone back to the Exchequer, as per the system. The Department will get the full money for the full Leader programme in the time to come, as the Department spends it. The Minister knows that is a fact, as do I. Of the €30 million that has been allocated for Leader, only €11 million has been spent, the bulk of it on administration. How much does the Department expect will be spent on projects between now and 31 December?

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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A small sample would suffice-----

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Good.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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That is current. The amount spent on the actual projects was €150,000 or €160,000.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Is that €11 million in capital spending?

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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In reality, one would be lucky to get €4 million or €5 million.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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That is all administration. It is predictable from the beginning of the year.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State could take another €15 million out.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Can I give the Minister of State one suggestion? He had responsibility for sport. He will remember his days in the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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He would have found that, for one reason or another, even after two or three years some bodies did not spend all the money. As he quite rightly pointed out, even local authorities did not spend all of the RAPID money when I was in the Department in 2010. If the Minister is going to spend €250 million under the Leader programme, would he accept that he should allow for sanctioning, disregard the administration money and add at least 10% more than the allocation if he wants a full spend? This is real life we are dealing with here.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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That was a problem. I introduced final dates by which the money had to be used or lost. That dealt with that problem. Some projects lost funding. Such an approach does not ensure that every project is completed, for one reason or another.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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In August 2017, €6 million was approved. When I was in the Department in 2010, €48 million was approved. I understand we spent €6 million or €8 million, and the Minister of State has spent €100,000. The Minister of State is behind where we were. He should not throw that one at me.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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We are getting a lot of history and whatever else. We need to move on and deal with the current issues.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I am giving the Minister of State a warning for the future. If only €10 million is sanctioned the full allocation will not be spent.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Under A8, the Minister of State said every county had an opportunity to submit eight projects. It seems a little unfair that large and small counties were treated the same. Counties like Cork and Mayo, Galway could submit the same number of projects as very small counties. Connemara is bigger than some counties. Why not be more scientific?

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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Why are small and large counties allowed to submit eight projects?

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I mentioned Cork. Castletownbere could submit eight projects.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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Deputy Ó Cuív has asked why a large county like Cork and a smaller county can both submit eight projects. Cork or Galway might need 20 projects.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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Compared to Leitrim.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Of that €12 million, how much does the Minister of State expect to spend? Nothing has been spent as of 10 November 2017.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I will not get into petty issue. The LIS will be dealt with. It now appears there are major savings under subheads A.5, A.6 and A.8.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Will the figure be €30 million?

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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I must bring the discussion to a conclusion.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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We have not discussed the SICAP or RAPID programmes, both of which are major issues.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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I am aware of that.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I would like to go through it in detail because we appear to have departed from the previous approach. I do not see any reference to are area implementation teams, AITs.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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When I visited these areas on my appointment as Minister I kept meeting people in suits. Under the RAPID structure, we established area implementation schemes in local housing estates and only people living in the relevant local authority housing estate could become community members of the schemes. This approach created a genuine local voice, as opposed to having people in authority doing what they usually do, namely, move or jiggle the money around. We used to meet members of the schemes every six months. This was the first time people from housing estates secured seats on these schemes which allowed them to determine what would happen in their local communities. I ask the Minister to engage on this issue as otherwise he will find that LCDCs, AITs and the well-heeled will manipulate the funding in a way that ensures it is not directed towards the coalface where we want it to be spent.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Why did it need to be changed? Value for money reviews come up with all sort of weird and wonderful ideas, which the Minister is under no obligation to accept. I had value for money reviews put to me which were doing what the system wanted them to do. I did not accept them because I did not believe the system was right. That is the reason the Minister is the Minister.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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That is equivalent to the great brainwave someone in the Minister's previous Department had when they allowed-----

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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-----people who had no connection to the Gaeltacht to elect a member to Údarás na Gaeltachta. That was a farcical change.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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We did not change the law. Before the change, people in the Gaeltacht made the decision.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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That is the law and it was the Minister who introduced it. I am pointing out what the law is and before it was changed, people from the Gaeltacht elected the person.

My point in regard to RAPID is that if LCDCs, which represent the whole of a city, have responsibility for these matters, we do not get the focused, concentrate input that is needed from the people who live in highly disadvantaged areas. Incidentally, to return to the famous national planning framework, we keep receiving paperwork showing how successful cities are. I could show the Minister parts of Dublin, Limerick and other cities where people living in the most isolated rural areas would not be willing to move, unfortunately. We will return to that issue on another day.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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We have spent three hours considering the further Revised Estimates. I thank the Minister and Minister of State and their officials for attending the meeting. Members look forward to future positive engagement with the Minister who will have noted that a number of issues remain to be thrashed out. The committee will return to these issues at some point and take a focused and targeted approach to rural issues.