Clerk to the Committee:

There is and it will be displayed.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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There is an issue in regard to University College Cork.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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We received a very strong reply from the Secretary General of the Department on UCC, indicating that it is not in compliance with public pay policy. The university was given an ultimatum to be in compliance by 15 May which is tomorrow and to cease any further payments that were out of line with that compliance, prior to that. Have we received confirmation from the president of UCC that the university has complied with the demand?

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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It appears that the information that was supplied originally by the college is not in accordance with the information that was supplied subsequently. These are serious matters that need to be addressed. After the president of the university replies to the Secretary General, we can look into the matter in greater detail.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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I agree with the Chairman that we should bring forward the meeting with the Department. I would like to read into the record the letter sent by the Secretary General to the president of the college:

The Department, however, has established from an analysis of the schedule submitted by the President with his letter that it includes additional unauthorised payments which were not previously notified to us. The information contained in the schedule is regrettably incomplete and the outstanding data have been sought from the university.

The correspondence refers to the public sector payments that were not authorised. He stated further: "I have directed the President to cease with immediate effect all remaining additional payments contained in the schedule which remain extant and to confirm to me by the 15th May that this has been done." As tomorrow is 15 May, I suggest we meet the Department on some date this month. The meeting would prove valuable as the Department could deal with this matter and all of the other issues outlined by the Chairman.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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We should wait until Mr. Michael Kelly finishes his report. It might be more useful to have him in when we meet the HEA and the Department. I have spoken to him and he has agreed to meet the Committee of Public Accounts once he has finalised his report.

My understanding is that he is taking a look at some of the issues you raised as well. He has had to wait until the two governing bodies in Waterford and Carlow met and until they have been put together before he issues his report. There has been a delay because of that and I believe that is reasonable. However, if we are asking in the Higher Education Authority with the Department of Education and Skills then I believe it would be useful to bring him in and discuss his report and findings as well, because he is examining the issues you have raised.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Yes, that is grand.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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That is fair enough. He is probably the one person who has been tasked with independently reviewing the governance matters that you are talking about. Therefore, if we are going to have a meeting on the matter it might be useful to have him before the committee to talk about his findings when it comes to the governance and the stream of information between the Department, the Committee of Public Accounts and the HEA.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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I agree with you on that point. What we are talking about is Government pay policy, but we are not getting full information. It is only dripping out subsequently when we hear of breaches of pay policy that are unauthorised. This is a clear case of it. Some of the other issues raised are related to this. It is important that this be done urgently and that the matter be raised at this committee. I agree that it could be done and that the broader issues could be dealt with at a later stage.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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There is a good deal in this. As you have said, one of the issues the committee dealt with has to do with procurement and tendering. The Comptroller and Auditor General has carried out reports on the matter. Across the board when it comes to the HSE it is clear that the executive is a bad actor, frankly, when it comes to tendering within public procurement guidelines. When it comes to the issue that you have just raised and what the committee has dealt with in recent weeks, the appropriateness of hiring former HSE employees to do reports for the HSE on issues as disturbing as those we have been dealing with is questionable.

When Mr. O'Brien was before the committee and questioned with regard to the process whereby the tender was awarded, he pointed to some regulations that needed to be followed. When he was questioned about whether they had been followed in that particular case and for the particular contract in question, it was clear that they had not because the procurement office said it had no communication with the HSE on the matter. In hindsight the answer he gave was disingenuous. We have done a great deal of work when it comes to this issue as well as the tendering of contracts by the HSE and the potential conflicts of interest that arise when former employees of the HSE get these contracts.

We should put a formal proposal from the committee to the Minister to change this arrangement. Most of the work has already been done by the committee. It would be simple to do. The issues we have raised in the committee have not been raised in any other forum in the Oireachtas and therefore it is reasonable for us to do that.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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I support Deputy Deasy's proposal, particularly in the context of the last meeting with HSE. You might recall, Chairman, that in the afternoon session yourself and myself stumbled into the Áras Attracta investigation by accident. No more than the concerns Deputy Deasy raised in respect of the south east, the same questions were left unanswered in respect of who was involved and how the team investigating Áras Attracta by the HSE was appointed. To be honest, the answers that came from the HSE officials were wholly unsatisfactory. We are still waiting to hear whether there is to be another investigation into something the HSE is responsible for and whether those involved have learned anything from it. It seems to me that they have not.

Clerk to the Committee:

It will be the week after next. We are not meeting next week.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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The Comptroller and Auditor General has done much work on procurement and HSE tendering. I will preface my comments by saying that one would wonder about value for money as far as the taxpayer is concerned when it comes to a contract being given to a former employee and individuals who were known within the organisation and who had been there for decades but it is far beyond that, frankly. The conflicts of interest that arise in these issues are incredibly disturbing and far supersede that consideration.

The premise is in place. You have done a great deal of work in this area, Chairman, as has the Comptroller and Auditor General. Perhaps you could feed into any report that the committee might do. That would be useful. Rather than simply point out the position, we should come up with a solution. I think we should come up with a clear determination, as a committee, about what should not happen when it comes to the issuing of a contract by the HSE. This should include an absolute bar on individuals who are former employees of the HSE getting these contracts. I believe that step will need to be considered by the Minister and we should make that recommendation and consideration.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The only comment I would make in that regard is that there may be a problem in law in respect of making a restriction completely debarring people who have legitimately set up in business from tendering for work. The complication in this case was that it was people, who had previously worked for or who had been previously engaged with the HSE, who were appointed without any competition.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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If the Government is prepared to pass a law that prevents politicians or former politicians lobbying their former colleagues, I do not see a problem with the Government passing a law preventing former employees of the HSE getting contracts as it applies to cases like these. Anything can be achieved if enough thought and consideration is given to it. I understand Mr. McCarthy's point, but if the will is there and the potential conflicts are understood well enough by the Department, it can probably do that too.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I do not want to argue for or against the proposition the Deputy is making because it comes into a policy area. I am just saying there may be a restriction in terms of the contestability of the issue and excluding certain categories. However, it is a matter that can be looked into.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

As the note says, it is a standard approach in the third level education sector to recognise a pension funding asset, which would strictly not be in compliance with accounting standards. I just draw attention to that. In fact, I have drawn attention to it in respect of the two years.

Clerk to the Committee:

It is on 18 June.

Clerk to the Committee:

It can be brought in on the Vote.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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What is the situation with the investment committee of the Office of Wards of Court coming in?

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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We agreed to ask it in.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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We agreed to ask representatives of that office in about two weeks ago. Presumably that request has not been delivered to them.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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It was.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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It was, absolutely.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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It was.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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That request has not been carried out. We did not know at the time that it was outside our remit. Is that correct?

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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No, it was not.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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It may have been taken as that, but it was not agreed as that.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Everything has changed.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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We should invite the office in anyway. It seems it can refuse and may do so, but there is a strange void here. It is not accountable to anybody. Is that correct?

Clerk to the Committee:

It is not accountable to us.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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To whom is it accountable? This is €1.5 billion, which is being managed by some individuals who are on the investment committee. If the office is not accountable to us, we must ask to whom it is accountable.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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We should ask it in. I do not think we should back away just because the individuals are particularly powerful. There are a couple of judges there but they would be very welcome to come and give evidence here.

Gabrielle McFadden (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I support Deputy Ross on that. I feel strongly that Office of Wards of Court should be invited in. If its representatives decide not to come in, one would have to ask why they would not appear before the committee. The Committee of Public Accounts, by virtue of its title, is here to investigate things like this and this office must be accountable to somebody. We have a duty of care to these people to ensure that what is happening in their name is looked after.

I am suspicious that the service that runs the fund is not audited internally or externally. It just does not seem right. I support Deputy Shane Ross and believe it should be invited and encouraged to appear before the committee. If it does not, there is some reason for not wanting to appear before us and that would make me suspicious.

Gabrielle McFadden (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The families have never been given a statement in respect of any of the funds. Who is doing the audit and, if so, where are the results?

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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The fact that they are audited is irrelevant.

Gabrielle McFadden (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Exactly.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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The point is to whom are they are accountable.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I agree with everything that has been said so far. Presumably, its line of funding starts from voted expenditure probably through the Department of Justice and Equality and the Courts Service. The funding must start somewhere.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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If you did not get the nuance of the discussion that took place the last day when you were not present. We also agreed to invite Ms Mary Farrell, who was from one of the families concerned and to give her the option of meeting members in an informal session. I want to ensure that end of it happens as well. The Courts Service or somebody must have a hold on the line of funding. A decision to invite in that lady was made.

Gabrielle McFadden (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Just for information, as it has been stated, I do not audit them. The funds of wards of court are regarded as private funds. They are not public funds.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Why?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

They are essentially awards that are made in court.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Who pays the awards?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It could an insurance company or it could be the State.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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So some of it comes from the State.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The expenses of the accountants' office are in the appropriation account of the Courts Service.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is what I said.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The accountant who manages the funds, as I understand it, manages it under the supervision of the President of the High Court.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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From memory, one of the recommendations in the report we are issuing states that the Comptroller and Auditor General oversees this entire area with regard to accountability. I think that is reason enough for us to invite in the investment committee to discuss that recommendation.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Is there a rule that the Comptroller and Auditor General would check if more than 50% of an organisation's funds come from the State and that the Comptroller and Auditor General should be the auditor? Is there a rule in that regard?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

That is for inspection.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Some of the funds may come from insurance companies because of awards but some come from the State where there are no insurance companies involved. What proportion of the original funding base comes from the taxpayer? That is what I would like to know.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

There is a provision. I think the Deputy is referring to section 8 of the 1993 Act which provides for inspection. In section 5 there is a permission to allow the Comptroller and Auditor General to audit the accounts of funds, except a fund under the control of the courts.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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They saw us coming.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

This is in the legislation. For the record, there was a draft Bill in 2006 or 2007 which did contain a proposal that the audit would be assigned to the Comptroller and Auditor General but that was never progressed.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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Given that we are not clear whether the awards have been made from public moneys or insurance money, surely that is an area that requires clarification in its own right. One of the major points raised by Deputy Sean Fleming at the last meeting was that we are talking about a totally different scenario where many of the wards of court are living to quite an old age and the issue of investment has changed dramatically from what it might have been 50 years ago and, therefore, there may be a need to explore the matter to some degree. If there are public moneys involved, there is an accountability issue for the committee. The very least we need to do is to tease out and see what level of public moneys may be involved. I agree entirely with the proposal that we should invite them in and let us take it from there.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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As to whether we invite them in, the person who makes this decision as the Comptroller and Auditor General has just explained, is probably the Minister for Justice and Equality with regard to the changing of legislation that was mooted in 2006 or 2007. Therefore, we will not get anywhere with regard to the recommendation in the report until there is some degree of change in thinking when it comes to transferring the oversight of this area to the Comptroller and Auditor General. If we are to do that I would ask the Department of Justice and Equality to be involved as well.

John Perry (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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May I make one point? Obviously the recommendation is very important. Much of the funding would come from the estate of the people concerned. It would not always come from insurance companies. It could be the residual of probate.

Gabrielle McFadden (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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It could be.

John Perry (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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I think they would be quite willing to come in. Given what the Comptroller and Auditor General has said with regard to the draft Bill in 2006, perhaps we could look at that possibility.

Gabrielle McFadden (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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With Ms Mary Farrell as well.

John Perry (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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The Chairman was on holidays.

John Perry (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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The Chairman was on holidays.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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Has there been any response from the Office of the Chief State Solicitor and the Courts Service in respect of coming in to give the committee a briefing?

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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Great. In relation to the docklands, we were to do a report on the Jeanie Johnstonon Hanover Quay.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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Excellent. We did not get a reply to our request to the Department of Justice and Equality on Thornton Hall to clarify the discrepancies arising from the various reports.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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Excellent. That is full clarity.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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In relation to last week's meeting, what is the position in regard to the special investigations unit and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine? Are we going to wait until the Department appears before the committee?

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Can it be e-mailed to us like other documentation?

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It can be sent to us by e-mail in the same way as the rest of the documentation and we can view it in the same way as all the other correspondence. It is just another step of technology.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We can share it then.