John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We will resume in public session. The purpose of this morning's meeting is to meet with Mr. Fred Barry, CEO, and his colleague Mr. Nigel O'Neill, head of commercial operations, procurement and strategic planning at the National Roads Authority about the authority's road programme, its funding, the possible further tolling of the M50 and policy on lighting of motorways. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. Barry and Mr. O'Neill. I draw their attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in respect of a particular matter and they continue to so do, they will be entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also advise them that any submission or opening statements they have submitted to the committee will be published on the committee website after this meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite Mr. Barry to give his opening statement.

Mr. Fred Barry:

I thank the committee for the invitation to appear before it today to discuss the National Roads Authority's current funding and work programme. The authority's work programme has three main elements, which are network management, commercial activities, and network improvements.

Network management includes tunnels, motorways, traffic centres, weather station operations and the like and rehabilitation and renewals work, particularly of pavement, signage, structures and lineage and maintenance. Network management, particularly as it relates to operations, has grown considerably in recent years.

Our commercial programme mainly relates to tolling and to public private partnerships, PPPs. Our tolling business employs hundreds of staff, mainly outsourced, and has almost 1 million account holders. The most recent developments include compliance with the European electronic toll service directive, which provides for pan-European tag interoperability, the full implications of which are still not entirely clear. Network improvement activity is very dependent on the funding available to us.

We discussed the improvements programme when we were before the committee last November so I will not repeat all of the detail. However, the main funding stream, which covers network renewals such as pavement and bridge rehabilitation as well as improvement projects, has been reduced by about 83% from peak and in fact was halved from 2012 to 2013 alone. One impact of this is that the funding available for rehabilitation work this year is less than is required to maintain the network in a steady-state condition. Should the underfunding persist, the cost ultimately will exceed what it would have done to carry out the work in a timely manner.

A positive development since our last appearance is that we are proceeding with new PPP schemes with the Government having committed to fund the State's costs. The Newlands Cross upgrade, the dualing of a section of the N11 between Arklow and Rathnew and the construction of an online service area near Gorey have started detail design and construction. The procurement of the very large Gort to Tuam scheme is well advanced and the procurement of the New Ross bypass and Gorey to Enniscorthy upgrade, which includes the Enniscorthy bypass, is under way. Unfortunately, the funding being made available to the authority for the coming years is such that there is no scope to undertake other improvement works on the national roads network.

The authority has always had a significant role in improving road safety and the network improvements in recent years have been enormously successful in reducing deaths and fatalities on the national road network. In addition to our traditional statutory responsibilities under the Roads Act, there are two EU directives on road safety for which we have been designated primary responsibility – the tunnels directive and the roads infrastructure safety management directive. The tunnels directive has been with us for some years, and has been fully implemented for some time. I am pleased to advise that in this year's programme, we are making excellent progress in implementing the relatively new infrastructure safety management directive.

We have, as requested, kept these opening remarks brief but will be happy to answer questions as best we can on any particular schemes or indeed on any other matters of interest to the committee. Should we not have the information requested to hand, we will follow up with written responses.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I have a few questions. Mr. Barry mentioned network maintenance and the lack of funding for it. He said the effect of this is that it will eventually cost more to upgrade the network. Are there road safety implications? What other implications are there? Other members may be interested in my next question. Could Mr. Barry give a timeline in respect of the Gort to Tuam scheme? I am sure it is also on Deputy Kitt's agenda.

With regard to questions, the policy is that I will take questions from members first so we will get everybody in. I call Deputy Dooley.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Barry for his presentation. I thank him and Mr. O'Neill for being here. I also thank Mr. Barry for his ongoing assistance to the committee. He is one of those public servants who is always available to take a call and he provides information both directly and through parliamentary questions. Public servants are often criticised in this House and outside it, but Mr. Barry is certainly one of those who deserves credit for the way in which he interacts with us. I am not buttering him up to give him a kick, lest he might fear that.

The Vice Chairman raised the issue of underfunding. Can Mr. Barry quantify the gap between what the authority is getting and what it needs to maintain the network to the level at which it just gets by, or what it needs to maintain the network to prevent it from deteriorating to a point at which it costs much more to upgrade? There was a seven-year rolling programme, possibly for non-national and secondary roads. It was certainly always the case that local authorities would identify a rolling seven-year programme. That was extended before without any major impact. It would be helpful if Mr. Barry could give us some guidance on that.

I know Deputy Kitt wishes to raise the issue of the Gort to Tuam scheme. It is a really important part of the need to roll out the Atlantic corridor connecting Limerick and Galway and assisting Galway in its hinterland. It is hugely important for the development of Shannon Airport in the mid-west which is a significant driver for economic growth there. This piece of the network is essential so we would like to see that expedited. I know Mr. Barry has been working on it and anything he can tell us in that regard would be helpful.

My next question concerns the Newlands Cross flyover.

A number of committee members have received significant representations from a number of householders who in my view, having visited the site and met them, are experiencing and will experience a very significant reduction in the amenity of their homes as a result of the project to be constructed. It went through the statutory process and they had the opportunity to make various submissions. Notwithstanding that, more work could be done in abatement or to try to insulate their homes better. I ask Mr. Barry to consider a further round of discussions and conciliation. Having spoken to them, I feel they are a very genuine group of people. They know the road is going ahead, but there is work that can be done. In the past the NRA has worked with local communities in a way that ensures people are not unnecessarily or inordinately discommoded.

Has the NRA provided the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport with any plan as to the levels of funding it will need to retain the network over the next five years? It has provided costings around work it would like to do rather than the essentials.

Mr. Fred Barry:

There are two budgets for maintenance of national roads. The maintenance budget covers day-to-day work such as removing graffiti, grass cutting, etc. That budget is down on previous years and is less than we or the local authorities would like to see, but if everything in that budget is not done, it is not particularly worrying and we can deal with it. We are concerned about capital maintenance, the renewal or rehabilitation of elements of the road network that wear out over a period of years. Pavement is the single biggest of those but it also applies to bridge structures, lineage and other elements of the network. That renewal work is best done on a continuous cycle before the road begins to break up and serious deterioration occurs. It is cheaper to do it on a progressive basis, doing preventative work, rather than waiting for it to deteriorate. For example, if a pavement deteriorates and is left unfixed, water will run into the courses below and eventually one ends up with a much bigger job than if one had replaced the pavement in time. It is better to do this work at the time, as for any householder it is better and cheaper to maintain their home instead of letting it deteriorate.

There are no safety implications in the current year with the current spending levels. We have prioritised the available money and are directing it towards those surfaces where the friction coefficients have deteriorated below thresholds. We are ensuring the money goes to the right places. We are not suggesting there is a safety issue this year, because there is not, but there is work not being done that we would have liked to do this year and that will need to be done next year, plus next year's work, so the problem accumulates.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Where does Mr. Barry see the cliff? If the money is not available, when will there be a significant deterioration to the extent that it will impact on the capacity of the road to carry the traffic and therefore lead ultimately to a road safety hazard?

Mr. Fred Barry:

There is no single point at which one says one has enough money or not enough. There are shades of grey in this. If we have a few years of the current funding level we will see a reversal of much of the good work done in recent years. We are in contact with the Department on it. I appreciate that everybody is looking for money from the Department of Finance and we all understand the Government has to deal with a very difficult situation so we are not raising this issue as a complaint about this year's situation. We are one of many organisations that could do with more money, but we are flagging the situation because we do not want to sit here in a few years' time with this committee and have people ask why we did not flag that. The choices being made here have implications.

On the Gort to Tuam road, the Government announced a PPP stimulus programme around this time last year. As part of it, the Government committed to pay the State's costs for three road PPPs, one of which was the N17-N18 Gort to Tuam project. That allowed us to reactivate a competition that had been under way for some time but had not got very far because we did not have the money to pay for the State's input to it. We have reactivated it and are at a point with the preferred bidder that we are collectively engaged with potential debt-funding organisations. The PPP funding structure is typically that the promoter of the scheme, the PPP company, puts in a proportion of the costs involved in developing the scheme out of its own money - an equity contribution - and borrows the larger part of the balance from various debt-funding organisations such as domestic and international banks.

The European Investment Bank usually contributes to Irish PPP schemes and will contribute to this one. International banks walked away from the Irish PPP market some years ago. To fully debt-fund the N17-N18 scheme we need to get contributions from offshore banks, because the scale of it is beyond the capacity of domestic banks to fund, although they are participating. The alternative fall-back plan is that the National Pensions Reserve Fund will commit the balance of the debt funding. Our first objective is to get the international funding. Those efforts are under way and we should know by September or October this year whether the balance of the funding can be got from that source. If not, we will be looking to the National Pensions Reserve Fund.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There was a suggestion that this would commence before the end of 2013. Is the timeline moving back?

Mr. Fred Barry:

It depends. It is all tied to the debt funding situation. The State's funding has been committed. It could still be signed by the end of this year. It may run into next year. If it rests on the National Pensions Reserve Fund, we must wait for the relevant legislation to go through the Oireachtas. That will determine the timing. If it can be done with private sector funding it is a case of getting that last tranche of funding nailed down. I would not put a definite date on it.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. Barry getting a positive sense that the markets are amenable?

Mr. Fred Barry:

We are not getting the "get lost" treatment.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The NRA got that for a while.

Mr. Fred Barry:

I have phrased it a little more politely, but we are not getting that sort of treatment.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is going in the right direction.

Mr. Fred Barry:

It is, but until propositions are put to the funding or credit committees of the banks, one does not know whether or on what terms they will offer. We are with a preferred bidder and with the support of the National Development Finance Agency, NDFA, we are very actively pursuing this. We share the sense of urgency about getting it done, although it is taking time, and we share the view of its importance and necessity.

On the Newlands Cross flyover, every time we do work, people benefit and people are discommoded. I would never understate the impact on people who are discommoded, whether landowners, neighbours or others. I am very sympathetic to anybody who is suffering. For most people who are badly impacted by a new road there will be compensation measures through some combination of land acquisition or accommodation works. There are others who do not have land taken but are in the neighbourhood and may suffer from it. There are no statutory provisions that allow us to make payments to those people.

This is a planning issue that is much wider than just the NRA but it is rather the same as the planning blight situation which we have talked about previously in this forum, where local authorities might have corridors reserved for a long time, thereby affecting people negatively, and where there is no provision to make payments to those people.

We can only work within the statutory provisions, and the provisions are as they are. That said, when we are doing a fairly large job, we normally make a contribution to the local authorities towards the end of the job, or sometimes in part during the job, to compensate for damage to the local road network and other related issues. If the local authority elected to use some of that money to put mitigation measures in place in the neighbourhood, we would not question it too closely as to how it elected to use the money. That might be an avenue for the residents to gain some relief.

On the question of whether we have conversations with the Department and the Minister's office on funding, the answer is yes, we do.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Barry. I concur with the remarks of Deputy Dooley about the NRA's availability to attend. Some of the other semi-State organisations involved in transport would do well to look at how the NRA relates to the committee.

There is an ongoing issue in regard to subcontractors. While the NRA might not have a direct input into this, the Dáil yesterday passed the Construction Contracts Bill. Yet, in the last week, I have taken telephone calls from people involved in the construction of a major national road project in the south who have not been paid and do not look likely to be paid by what appears on the can to be a very reputable company, which gets a lot of work from local authorities that is funded through the NRA and the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport. To be honest, I believe it is reprehensible that we still have a situation whereby moneys, which Mr. Berry has acknowledged are very scarce, are channelled from the NRA through local authorities or directly to contractors but are not ending up with the people who do the work. I do not know how comfortably that sits with Mr. Barry or the NRA. I spoke to a contractor last week who knows colleagues who have not been paid for over 12 months on projects that are finished. The local authorities and the NRA do not want to know about him - nobody wants to know about him - but the main contractor has been paid. It seems the main contractor is open for business and free to be contracted again by the NRA and the local authorities.

There is a moral issue to this scandalous situation. I have a good mind to name the contractor in question, perhaps not in this forum but in the Dáil Chamber. At the end of the day, local authorities and the NRA have a moral obligation to try to protect innocent subcontractors who have to try to put food on the table for their families. These major contractors, which are hoovering up work that the NRA is funding all over the country, are walking around scot free and nobody seems to be taking any initiative to deal with this. I find that stomach-churning. I would like to get Mr. Barry's comments on that issue.

The second issue is one I have raised previously with Mr. Barry. I am perplexed as to how certain roads are identified for investment and others are not. To take Limerick, where I am from, it has three major national primary routes which have not had one cent spent on them for the past 20 years - the N21, the N24 and the N69. The N21 is probably the busiest tourism corridor in the west because it channels practically all of the tourist traffic into and out of Kerry, but nothing is spent on it. Without taking from it, I would like to know on what basis the New Ross to Enniscorthy road was chosen. Does it convey more traffic than, for example, the Limerick to Cork road, the Limerick to Waterford road or the Limerick to Tralee road? Are there criteria by which the NRA selects these corridors for investment? I would suggest that one area in dire need of investment, and which would show some semblance of joined-up thinking in regard to transport investment, is the road that links the deepest port in the country to the national road network. However, not one cent has been spent on the N69, certainly in my lifetime, with the exception of taking out a few bins and the like. Mr. Barry might explain how the PPPs and the capital investment programme that are currently included in the envelope were selected at the expense of other projects. Cork and Limerick are the two largest urban centres in the west and south and they are linked by a glorified cattle track. From an economic development point of view, surely that area was more deserving than places elsewhere that do not link the same level of population.

My final point concerns a perennial issue I have raised with Mr. Barry previously and to which he alluded a short time ago. Who is responsible for the maintenance of sterilisation orders on land that is not currently attracting any investment and is unlikely to attract it? I am thinking specifically of the N20-N21 Adare bypass, which has been the subject of jiggery-pokery on more than one occasion in terms of routes being moved at a time when there was money in the country. Now, there is no money and there is a kind of semi-sterilised corridor. The landowners are greatly affected and cannot build a henhouse on the land, yet they are told they must go on the never-never to wait for something that might never come. Who is responsible for the maintenance of that sterilisation order and under what statute are they maintaining it?

Mr. Fred Barry:

First, with regard to main contractors and payments to subcontractors, I share the views the Deputy has expressed about the moral implications and the immorality of subcontractors not being paid for work done. I am sure the local authorities would share that view. However, although we may now have it with the Construction Contracts Bill being passed, what we have lacked is the ability to do anything about it. I was not aware the Construction Contracts Bill had gone through but I know that, at earlier stages, it included provisions that allowed subcontractors who were not being paid to essentially attach payments going through. We will ensure, of course, that the Bill as passed gets implemented on road schemes.

In the absence of that measure, as we have discussed in this committee on previous occasions, the local authority, the NRA and other State agencies have no vires, no role or no way of interfering in the contractual relationship between the main contractor and the subcontractors. One can look at something and say one does not like it and that it is wrong, but one has to have a statutory basis to do anything. We have not had the statutory basis. Nonetheless, we will implement the Construction Contracts Bill as passed - I can guarantee the Deputy that.

On the prioritisation of route corridors and where they come from, over the years the primary prioritisation has come out of national development plans and governmental policies. For example, the national development plan in 2000 included the basic principles of delivering the motorways between Dublin and the other major cities - it included more detail than that, of course, but that was the genesis of that particular prioritisation. That development plan was updated and superseded by Transport 21 some years later, which in turn was superseded by the National Development Plan 2007-13. The strategic prioritisation and, very often, the identification of specific routes comes out of policy documents and policy plans led by the Government.

Occasionally, we will be given direction on specific routes and we will be given money that is dedicated to advancing specific routes. Beyond that, the prioritisation is done through the application of the project appraisal rules and guidelines which are published by the Department of Finance and which are added to by the Department of Transport for application as they apply to agencies within the transport family. Through those, potential schemes are assessed under what one would consider the standard headings, which include economy, safety, environment and so on. There is a standard framework for evaluation, and it is through it that evaluation of competing projects is done. Within those, the values that are ascribed to certain aspects are not decided at our discretion within the authority, but we are given values to use. For example, we are given values to use for the cost of a death or the cost of an accident.

We factor in those values and carry out those assessments for each project. Projects such as those currently included in the PPP programme are a very long time in gestation.

With regard to the introduction last summer of the Government's stimulus programme, the range of projects to be selected will be those that have completed or almost completed the statutory processes. The committee will be aware that getting a project to the point of proposing it to An Bord Pleanála takes years. Bringing a project through An Bord Pleanála can take as little as nine months but in some cases it can be three or four years before a project has completed that process. For the Government to proceed or for us to propose a project for a stimulus programme, in general we are considering those which are relatively advanced in the programme. For example, the Gort to Tuam road, the New Ross bypass and Gorey to Enniscorthy were clearly ones that could be delivered. They had completed the statutory process, they all give very high economic return on the investment and they are all of strategic benefit and not just of local benefit. The Gort to Tuam road is on the Atlantic corridor, while the Enniscorthy to Gorey road is on the N11. Connecting Rosslare by dual carriageway as far as Belfast has been a strategic plan for this country for a very long time, and similarly New Ross and the east-west corridor. There are large volumes of traffic through New Ross and it has large and very costly traffic jams at all times. There is no question as to whether these are worthwhile projects.

Without wishing to be argumentative, I would take issue with Deputy O'Donovan's suggestion that we have not invested in the Limerick region in recent years. I direct his attention to the southern ring road, to the Limerick tunnel and the continuation to Ennis. I am not suggesting that more investment is not needed and I am not discounting-----

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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That was not the point I made. My point was that the connectivity from Limerick out into the regions of Waterford, Cork and Kerry has not received the degree of investment that other regions, namely, the south east - for example, the New Ross and Enniscorthy areas - have received at a time when the country has no money. I have great difficulty in reconciling the fact that the Limerick to Cork project and the Limerick to Kerry project have been withdrawn completely. There is no plan, only sterilisation notices on lands where people cannot build or develop.

Mr. Fred Barry:

The decision to withdraw the M20 was by direction of the Minister and I am not in a position to comment. I am not allowed to comment on Government policy.

I wish to comment on the maintenance of reserved land. We have discussed this topic at the committee on previous occasions. The compensation provisions under the planning laws do not allow local authorities to provide compensation for planning blight. The compensation laws in some other jurisdictions such as in the UK, to my best knowledge, provide compensation for planning blight. I do not know what is the practice in continental European countries. Any change in the situation would have to come by way of a change in the statutory provisions. The local authorities cannot provide compensation unless they have a basis for doing so.

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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There are many members indicating. I ask members to confine their comments to two or three minutes and to confine themselves to questions, if possible.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. O'Neill and Mr. Barry for their attendance. I have a question about the tolling and the survey undertaken by an independent group on the M50. Does the NRA agree with the results of the survey with regard to extra tolling points on the roads leading off the M50? Mr. Barry referred to public private partnerships and the Gort to Tuam road. Other bodies such as Irish Water are all interested in the reserve fund. I am not sure whether it will live up to expectations. I refer to the bridge at Narrow Water where there is an issue to do with a contractor which is causing a delay. The north-west area in general seems to lack a joined-up approach to its road network. Is pressure being put on the Minister to deal with other areas? The north-west area, including Donegal, is being ignored. What is the NRA policy for dealing with its counterpart in the North? Is the co-operation successful?

Funding was halved in the period 2012 to 2013. Mr. Barry said that the NRA is managing despite this decrease. I do not know how the NRA can keep things going with a halving of its funding. I understand that in 2014 the funding for the major regional and local roads will be discontinued in favour of a concentration on repairs and maintenance. How long will this situation last and what will be the implications?

I met with the north Meath group who are campaigning against potholes. That area has one of the worst problems in the country. I acknowledge the role of the local authority in this regard but has the NRA a role in addressing this problem? Has the extra funding of €50 million announced by the Minister addressed some of the issues with local authorities? I am unsure of the role of the NRA with regard to the acquisition of lands. I ask Mr. Barry to clarify whether the NRA deals with landowners and farmers on those routes.

Mr. Fred Barry:

I refer to the continuing study on the M50 and demand management. The approval by An Bord Pleanála for the upgrade to the M50 included a condition that the road authorities in the area must produce a demand management scheme within three years of the road opening. The third anniversary of the opening of the last section is coming up later this year. The road authorities are obliged under the planning permission to produce this work. The road authorities are primarily the four local authorities, Fingal, Dublin city, south Dublin and Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown. The NRA also has a role because it is the road authority for a couple of kilometres on a section of the M50. We have collectively commissioned this investigation. It shows a fairly compelling argument that traffic will grow quite considerably on that road as the economy recovers. There will be a choice in future years either to manage the demand for space on the road or to face considerable congestion. To manage demand on a road requires engineering measures and smarter travel plans, for example, but the primary method of managing demand is down to fiscal measures, which translates to tolling. The report is not finalised but we fully agree with the recommendation that there will be a choice in the future between additional tolling and possible variable tolling with higher tolls at peak hours. Otherwise, the outcome will be a return to congestion on the road.

There will be no progress in this regard for some time, however, because the Minister has directed that there be no additional tolling during his term in office. It is not a report that would necessarily have led to immediate action in any event. It will be published later this year and the analysis will be there for everybody to see and discuss.

The Narrow Water bridge project, which will link counties Louth and Down, is not part of the national road network and we do not, therefore, have any direct involvement. I understand the likely outturn costs of the project are somewhat higher than initially anticipated. The construction tenders have been submitted and it will probably be on hold until all of that is sorted out. I cannot give a more definitive status update because, as I said, it does not come under our remit.

Deputy Dessie Ellis observed that the programme of motorway construction in recent years, linking Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway and so on, did not extend to the north west. We have been catching up a little on the N4 between Dublin and Sligo. An application in respect of the very bad section of road between Castlebaldwin and Collooney will be going to An Bord Pleanála for approval later this year. That will tee it up for the future. It had been intended that the development of the A5 in Northern Ireland would have a significant benefit for Donegal, particularly the north of the county. We are all aware of the position in regard to that project. We are not directly involved in it but as it proceeds in the future, we will be engaging with our colleagues in the North in the context of the State funding that will go into it. We have a very good relationship in general with our counterparts in Northern Ireland. We meet from time to time to discuss developments generally, as well as co-operating on specific cross-Border issues. In the case of the A5, for example, there would be a co-ordinated approach in respect of the crossing between Lifford and Strabane.

Planning issues and funding in regard to regional and local roads are outside our remit. In the case of the additional €50 million allocation, unfortunately we did not see any of it.

Tom Fleming (Kerry South, Independent)
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I welcome the delegates from the National Roads Authority. It has been clear over the years that there is sometimes a vast difference between neighbouring counties in terms of their approach to the planning and progression of road development projects. Deputy Patrick O'Donovan referred to the Limerick situation. I find it hard to comprehend how Kerry can be 20 years ahead of its neighbouring county when it comes to road infrastructure. One need only consider the state-of-the-art road from Abbeyfeale and onward into Kerry. When one crosses the county bounds into Limerick, however, one encounters bottlenecks and various other blockages, including in busy urban areas like Newcastle West and the important tourist town of Adare. It is quite bewildering. Likewise, when one crosses the boundary into County Cork, passing through Macroom and proceeding further east, it is the same scenario.

It is difficult to understand how such discrepancies arise in a small country like ours and why there is not more continuity in terms of the progressive development of infrastructure. What is the role of the NRA in overseeing and co-ordinating proposals for land acquisitions and other planning issues as put forward by the various local authorities? Is there a need for more joined-up thinking and action, and does the NRA have a liaison role in that regard? The discrepancies to which I referred should not be happening on a small island. Is there already a job of co-ordination for the NRA in this respect or is new legislation required to assign it powers to that end?

I take this opportunity to compliment the NRA on all its good work in County Kerry, its co-operation with interested parties and allocation of moneys to various projects. The latest example is the Tralee-Dingle road which only last week saw Mr. Barry paying a visit to the county. He has been down on several occasions to oversee the launch of a range of very welcome developments which are very important for the county in terms of attracting investment, for the tourism trade and for people who commute between the various towns. What is the latest information on the further development of the Tralee-Dingle road? I understand there is an issue with An Bord Pleanála, which Mr. Barry might explain. I also compliment the NRA on the further progress that has been made in bringing the Tralee bypass project to fruition. Will Mr. Barry indicate what progress has been made on the acquisition of lands and general progression of the proposed Farranfore bypass and the upgrading of the Tralee-Killarney route? I understand a funding allocation is due for the Ring of Kerry. I would like to see investment in that strategic route further enhanced into the future.

What is the NRA's policy regarding accident black spots? I understand there is a programme of priority action for such locations around the country. Will Mr. Barry comment on that? He may be aware of the stretch of road between the towns of Castlemaine and Milltown which has seen 30 incidents in recent years, the most recent last week at a place called Cluainmore. I have been in contact with Mr. Barry on this issue, as well as Mr. Noel Brett of the Road Safety Authority and Kerry County Council.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I remind the Deputy that we are under pressure of time and there are several members waiting to speak.

Tom Fleming (Kerry South, Independent)
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I urge that funding be provided to address this particularly hazardous black spot. I understand a plan is being prepared by Kerry County Council, but it is vital that there be a prioritisation of the issue at a national level. There must be a fast response to correct hazardous conditions which pose a danger to life.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I indicated that the main spokespeople would be allowed three minutes each, which has been interpreted very liberally. I ask remaining speakers to confine their contributions to specific questions. It is good, all the same, to hear Kerry supporting Limerick as we did in Deputy Tom Fleming's contribution.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome Mr. Barry and Mr. O'Neill. Notwithstanding his response to Deputy Dessie Ellis, Mr. Barry will not be surprised that I intend to focus on the north west. He mentioned a particular black spot on the N4 in Sligo.

Has money been ring-fenced for the improvement of that stretch of road or is the NRA awaiting the outcome of the An Bord Pleanála process? Another road about which I am concerned and to which I am sure Deputy Michael Colreavy will also be referring is the N16. What, if anything, is happening with this road?

I have every sympathy for Deputies Tom Fleming and Patrick O'Donovan, particularly as my wife comes from Castletownbere. I fail to see why there has not been any development of the link road to the town. I was astonished to read recently that plans for a bypass of the area had been withdrawn. I do not know what happened in that regard but perhaps Mr. Barry might comment on the issue.

I referred to the issue of road maintenance at our previous meeting with the NRA. At that meeting Mr. Barry expressed some concerns about the amount of funding that would be available in the next two to three years to ensure the great work done in developing the road network would not go to waste and that all routes would be maintained. Is he satisfied that the message in this regard has got through to the Government and that the budget for maintenance will be sufficient in the coming years? There was some discussion in recent months to the effect that the Government might be releasing moneys for capital investment projects. Is the approach of the NRA in this regard proactive or reactive? Does it have a wish list ready? I do not believe it does because it must react to what occurs.

Last night on the Adjournment in the Seanad I raised the issue of the invasive weed Japanese knotweed. This came about as a result of a letter to a national newspaper from a woman in County Kerry who stated this ubiquitous weed was proliferating at quite a rate and damaging the environment as a result. It is an extraordinary weed which just seems to grow continually and there is a particular method for eliminating it. I understand the national road network is subject to intrusion by this weed. Does the NRA deal with Japanese knotweed in a way which ensures the environment will not be damaged? Great work can be done in maintenance, but this weed can undermine entire stretches of road.

Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Is it correct that we each have three minutes in which to ask four questions?

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Members have two minutes each.

Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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To what extent do health and safety policies and practices, signage, etc., contribute to the cost of projects? Will Mr. Barry provide a percentage figure in this regard? Has the NRA calculated the amount of money which comes back to the Government in VAT returns, etc.?

The second matter about which I am concerned relates to the NRA's role in the tendering process for road improvements or realignments. What discretion does the authority have in this regard? My specific concern is that companies from outside the jurisdiction, workers of which are paid less than their counterparts in this country, would be at a competitive advantage vis-à-vis Irish companies. Is the NRA allowed to take into account as part of the process of awarding contracts the need to retain existing jobs and create new ones in this country? How does Ireland's cost per kilometre for realignment compare with that in other EU countries? To what extent has this cost either decreased or increased since 2009?

As Senator Paschal Mooney predicted, I very much welcome the work on the N4 between Collooney and Cloonamahon. There are 30 white crosses at various locations along the side of that road and we never want to see a 31st being erected. The N16-A4 route is a national disgrace. Successive Governments have promised to take action on this road which runs from Belfast to Sligo and Galway and is completely not fit for purpose. I understand special EU funding is available for cross-border routes under the TEN-T programme. Such funding would allow the authorities in the Six Counties to bypass Enniskillen and it could also be spent on upgrading the N16. However, the NRA's website indicates that the N16 Glenfarne to Blacklion and Glenfarne to Glencar realignments and the Sligo to Glencar project have been suspended. I am at a loss to understand what is happening in this regard. The previous Government, which held two of the three seats in the constituency, one of which was occupied by a Minister of State, promised that these projects would proceed. The position is the same with the current Administration, which also holds two of the seats in the constituency and, again, one of them is occupied by a Minister of State. However, no one seems to be taking the N16 project seriously. That is simply not good enough because the route is a national disgrace. I probably should be criticising the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport in this matter as opposed to anyone else. Unfortunately, as he is not present, Mr. Barry must be the subject of my ire. If the criteria relating to this matter include traffic flows and the cost multiplied by the number of deaths and accidents, it is logical that traffic travelling from Belfast to Sligo will use a longer but better route. The self-fulfilling prophecy in this context is that if that happens, the N16-A4 will just disappear off the map altogether. That would be neither right nor just.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy's point is well made.

Mr. Fred Barry:

If I may, I would like to say a little more about the major programme in the context of where we stand on projects more generally because this answer would be repeated in response to specific questions on certain projects. As stated, from last year to this funding levels have been cut by approximately 50%. This cut is accommodated not simply by reducing capital maintenance-type activities but also by greatly reducing the funding available for new build and improvement projects. Members may recall that when I came before the committee in November, I indicated that last year quite a number of smaller local improvement schemes were under construction throughout the country. These projects have either been completed or will be during the remainder of this year. They are not going to be replaced by new schemes under construction because the funding does not permit this.

On many of the routes mentioned, including that from Limerick to County Kerry, the N16, etc., I would like to take members back to the strategic programme that was Transport 21. I accept that it first appeared some years ago, but it set out that the NRA, with funding from the Government, was charged with upgrading or building the strategic infrastructure network in the first instance. This involved developing inter-city motorways such as the M3, constructing the Waterford bypass and various other projects. The work to which I refer constituted the first phase of Transport 21 and it was intended that as these projects were delivered, we would move on to address the many problems affecting the remainder of the primary road network and the national secondary road network. However, as we approached the end of the development of the strategic motorway network, funding ran out. As stated, we understand we are not being picked on in this regard, but our funding has been significantly reduced year on year in the interim. Consequently, we have not been able to proceed with other projects. In the context of the N16 and the projects in west Limerick on which work is not proceeding, I must inform members that virtually all major projects have been suspended. The exceptions are those projects which are funded by private finance through public private partnerships. There are a number of such projects and they are advancing. Unless there is a change in our funding position, we will not be taking any major scheme, regardless of whether it relates to the N16 or some other road, to construction in the next couple of years.

Huge investment was made in roads in County Limerick. However, most of this was in roads in Limerick city, in the first instance, and connections from there to places such as Dublin, etc. We had moved on to trying to address some of the problems between Limerick and County Kerry, but An Bord Pleanála refused us permission to build the Adare bypass. We did not withdraw our application in that regard; it was actually An Bord Pleanála which refused permission and it stated the construction of the Adare bypass was interconnected or linked with the construction of the M20 from Limerick to Cork. Limerick County Council applied for permission to proceed with the Adare bypass as a stand-alone scheme. This application was submitted at the same time as that for the M20 upgrade. An Bord Pleanála took the view that when the application relating to the latter scheme was withdrawn, it would not grant permission for the Adare bypass.

An Bord Pleanála has given its decision and there is not much that we or Limerick County Council can do about it. That is not to say there will not be other ways of addressing traffic problems in west Limerick, but without funding, nothing is going to happen.

Tom Fleming (Kerry South, Independent)
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What is the position on the Macroom bypass?

Mr. Fred Barry:

It has been with An Bord Pleanála for some time. The project was approved by An Bord Pleanála, but a judicial review of the decision was sought by objectors to it. The High Court reviewed the decision and decided that An Bord Pleanála had acted properly and upheld the planning award. The objectors have since sought leave to appeal the High Court's decision to the Supreme Court. A hearing was heard in the High Court on the issue and a decision is expected fairly shortly. We are hopeful a decision will come through shortly and that it will provide planning approval for the bypass. However, with it and the case relating to the N4 between Collooney and Castlebaldwin, no money has been ring-fenced for any of the schemes. They will be available to proceed according as funding becomes available, which is positive, but they will not necessarily move directly from An Bord Pleanála approval to construction.

Paschal Mooney (Fianna Fail)
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Therefore, it will be another-----

Mr. Fred Barry:

We have a very active programme to deal with black spots. We gather and analyse data on collisions. This underpins much of what does get done and safety schemes. We are aware of the situation to which Deputy Tom Fleming referred in County Kerry and are working closely with the local authority on it. I can confirm that if there is a clear and imminent danger, we will work with the authorities to do what needs to be done. There is an issue.

Tom Fleming (Kerry South, Independent)
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Is Mr. Barry referring to Milltown?

Mr. Fred Barry:

There are a couple of situations around the country where we are doing this, but we really have to understand what is leading to accidents. We cannot just have a knee-jerk reaction and say we will do something. Kerry County Council is applying temporary speed limits in the area to protect people in the meantime and we will be very active with it. We will give a speedy response and will not let the issue lag.

Questions were asked about additional moneys and maintenance. I have probably said it all. Infectious weeds are dreadful and they are everywhere. The funding from the National Roads Authority goes to the local authorities. However, as of this year the NRA is taking direct responsibility for the maintenance and operation of the dual carriageway and motorway network. With our contractors, we will be tackling infectious weeds on the dual carriageway network. I agree with the constituent who spoke to the Deputy that some of the weeds are very invasive and extremely difficult to deal with and if they are not dealt with, they can lead to long-term problems. We will tackle the issue. The National Roads Authority will work on the problem on the dual carriageway network, while local authorities will manage it on the single carriageway network.

I cannot give an answer on the health and safety policy contribution to project costs. Safety issues, in particular, give rise to much of the work we do, but I cannot give a figure for how much one could attribute to health and safety issues. VAT on design and build work is payable at a rate of 13.5% and 23% on services. That is the proportion of our budget that goes in VAT payments.

On tendering processes and levels of discretion, typically, the processes used in tendering are set by ourselves and the Government Contracts Committee, in particular, which gives the standard forms of contract and conditions of contract to which we all work. Individual competitions are run, usually by panels, to avoid bias and make sure everything is transparent and above board. It is illegal to discriminate against entities simply because they are from outside Ireland, if they are from within the European Union. Part and parcel of our EU membership is that businesses and companies from other EU countries can do business here, just as Irish companies do such a great job in doing business in other countries. We cannot insert provisions-----

Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Is that the case even where they pay less than the minimum wage in Ireland?

Mr. Fred Barry:

They are obliged by law to pay more than the minimum wage. The issue is perhaps not so much the minimum wage but the registered agreements. We engage in an audit activity for national road projects to make sure contractors are making their pension payments for their workforce and that they are paying in accordance with the registered agreements. The recent decision that the registered agreements are unconstitutional throws this up in the air a bit and I am not quite sure how it will work out in the future. I expect a broad direction to be given by the general Government contracts committee to the public sector on how to deal with the issue.

On costs in this country versus those in other EU countries, it is very hard to judge costs for minor improvement works, but we have data for the cost per kilometre for motorways and Ireland is one of the lowest cost countries in Europe. The delivered cost per kilometre for motorways in Ireland is well below the typical cost in other countries. It is even well below the cost in eastern European countries where they have much lower labour costs, but, nonetheless, the industry in this country has become extraordinarily efficient. I include contractors, consultants, local authorities, the National Roads Authority and the delivery system. Once we get a project through An Bord Pleanála and get it going, it is extremely efficient.

On whether the N16 is below standard, it most definitely is. There is no question about this and I do not say otherwise. We have some minor works projects which include work on the N16. We have another project ready to go there if and when the funding comes through for it. More general upgrades of the N16 are going to be in the same position as upgrades of other road schemes around the country. Until the economy and the funding position improve I do not see us undertaking any significant work in the near future.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Now we will go to non-members. I apologise for the long wait for some speakers.

Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Would it be possible for the committee to write to the Minister to establish whether we have lost out on TEN-T funding in the case of the N16-A4? My understanding was that TEN-T funding would be made available for the N16-A4. Questions must be asked if we are turning down additional funding for road development in this country.

Mr. Fred Barry:

I do not have an answer to that question.

Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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No, but I am asking the Vice Chairman if we can write to the Minister.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We might have asked that question. We can specifically ask it now in the context of the N16. We asked the general question before. A letter will be sent by the committee.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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The A5 should be mentioned also.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes. I will take all of those in the next group of speakers together. I ask that they confine their contributions to questions in so far as possible.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome Mr. Barry and Mr. O’Neill. Mr. Barry referred to the National Pensions Reserve Fund, on which there are many demands. The key issue to which he referred was the legislation required. I raised the matter in the Dáil with the Taoiseach in the context of the N17 and N18. I asked whether there was legislation to underpin the particular project. He said no, but I presume he was talking about the debt-funding organisations. The matter must be clarified as everyone wishes to have clarity.

I welcome what Mr. Barry said about work on the Gort to Tuam road being well advanced. I am impressed that I received two letters from the NRA in the past week. I even received one this morning. Reference has been made to the fact that it is anticipated that the contract for the scheme could be signed next year. We had hoped it would be signed this year, but, as Mr. Barry said, perhaps it might be. It is worrying to hear that it might only be signed next year. The letter I received four days ago stated the construction period would be three and a half years. I heard people express concern in my area in Galway that the project would not go ahead for a number of years. I, therefore, welcome the overall investment of €550 million. I also welcome what the NRA is doing, but clarity is required as to when the contract will be signed and work will commence.

I hope it will not take as long as the previous work, but Mr. Barry is saying that, effectively, it will be 2018 before it is completed.

I support the comments made on the A5. As Chairman of the Joint Committee on the Good Friday Agreement, Deputy Joe McHugh has been pushing the issue.

The issue of the National Roads Authority's policy on rest areas arose at the committee previously. As far as I recall, the first motorway built was between Dublin and Galway and at the time there was much talk about rest areas. While they may not need to be elaborate, they could be provided at a lower cost.

I must leave now to take the Chair in the Dáil, but Mr. Barry might write to me on some of these issues. I am sorry that I cannot remain to hear the replies.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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On a peripheral issue, Senator Michael Comiskey asked me to mention the N4 Collooney to Castlebaldwin and the N16 Manorhamilton to Enniskillen projects. I do not wish to be dismissive of previous speakers, but the incumbents do not have an interest in them. I am aware that Deputy Tony McLoughlin and the Minister of State, Deputy John Perry, raise these issues on a regular basis.

A Deputy:

He could raise the money.

Joe McHugh (Donegal North East, Fine Gael)
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The days of growing money on trees are over. We realise that is not possible in the current economic climate. However, I am here to talk about another issue.

I am a Donegal man. I welcome Mr. Barry and Mr. O'Neill. I will not give them the Donegal single transferable speech, namely, that it is the forgotten county and that we get nothing, but the work the NRA has done in linking the major intercity routes has been fantastic. As a Donegal man, I have no problem acknowledging this because the motorways from Dublin to Cork, Limerick, Galway and Belfast are phenomenal infrastructural projects. In County Donegal the infrastructural work done on the Clar Barnes route, the bypass in Donegal town, the N56 and the Derry to Letterkenny road has to be acknowledged. I also acknowledge the strong working relationship between Donegal County Council and the NRA.

The next chapter will be exciting and Mr. Barry alluded to it in terms of the strong working relationship the NRA has with the Roads Service in Northern Ireland. Great work is being done on the proposed joint working relationship on the Lifford-Strabane bridge. The key desire for people living in the north west concerns the ambitious but realistic project of linking Letterkenny with Dublin.

Mr. Barry and my colleagues mentioned the A5, in respect of which there is an Executive commitment at Stormont. I am not asking Mr. Barry to comment on this, as it is an internal consideration. That the habitats directive was not complied with is a disappointment. Mr. Barry will not be commenting on this either, but I hope there will not be a further delay and that the project will be fully realised. The disappointing aspect is that the momentum was interrupted and the word on the street is that the project has been shelved, but I know it has not been; rather, it has been delayed. We must work jointly on it.

We need to have a construct around a single-tier plan. I do not know if the proposal is on Mr. Barry's desk yet, but we have a proactive Donegal national roads design office, NRDO, which is willing to consider designing a route from Aughnacloy to Dublin in collaboration with the Westmeath roads design office. This is not to be parochial in terms of the north west or County Donegal; rather, it is about being able to get into one's car on a Tuesday afternoon and travel to Dublin in two and a half hours without having to drive at speeds of 40 to 50 km/h, as is currently the case. I ask the NRA to examine ambitious and realistic plans in Donegal County Council where the NRDO is looking to work in partnership with others to develop the route between Aughnacloy and Dublin, because it will not be acceptable to have a good infrastructural link between Strabane and Aughnacloy and not to have a complementary route between Lifford and Letterkenny and Aughnacloy and Dublin. Bypasses have been built. There is a two-plus-one carriageway at Castleblayney, but it is still not acceptable when one sees what is happening between Limerick, Galway, Cork and Belfast and Dublin. It will not be acceptable to have two-plus-one carriageways. We must be ambitious. While I accept we must be realistic, this is about reconstructing an infrastructure on the island that was in place decades before us with reference to the Victorian railway lines. This is the post-Victorian rail period and we are looking at reconstructing the island. There are gentlemen in this room involved in the peace process, with me, and they have attended the Joint Committee on the Good Friday Agreement. The peace process is not just an aspiration; it is about reuniting our people, in which roads infrastructure has a role to play. Mr. Barry's organisation has an exciting role to play and I look forward, through the Joint Committee on the Good Friday Agreement, to working with him. I ask him to examine the plans and proposals on the table from Donegal County Council and also the NRDO in County Donegal.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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A question was raised at a previous meeting by Senator Terry Brennan, who is not present, about lighting on motorways. If I am interpreting him correctly, he stated there was more lighting on motorways than anywhere else in the country. The impression one got from his comments was that the lighting appeared to be on 24 hours a day and that there was a potential saving in that respect without risking health and safety. Mr. Barry might address that point.

Mr. Fred Barry:

Certainly. Deputy Michael P. Kitt asked if I would write to him on the points raised by him. I will do so.

Regarding the N17 and N18, the use of the word "could" in the letter to the Deputy should be taken as no more than the normal caution. Regarding a three and a half year construction period, the contractor will be entitled to take up to three and a half years to build it, but we all hope he will do it faster than this when the time comes.

On the Slane bypass, Deputy Helen McEntee should be aware that, with Meath County Council and the people of Slane, we are very unhappy about the traffic situation in Slane, both from a safety point of view and also for the town. Far too much traffic is passing through it. An Bord Pleanála rejected the original planning application, essentially on the grounds that the proposed road would be visible from Brú na Bóinne. Consequently, the bypass would only be allowed if there was no appropriate alternative available. It was not satisfied that there was no appropriate alternative available. It referred in its commentary to tolling and traffic management plans. It acknowledged that it had no role in implementing traffic management systems and regional transport policy, but, nonetheless, it stated something along these lines would have to be done. It made the valid point that some of the traffic problems in Slane resulted from traffic diverting from other routes to avoid tolls. We have since explored the extent of this problem. It is not news to anybody that that is the case, but we have concluded that adding tolls on the N2 would help to alleviate the congestion in Slane.

It could take up to 40% of the heavy goods vehicles out of Slane, which would be a significant contribution. I appreciate that there is no desire to introduce new tolls, but it is a possibility.

Meath County Council is planning to produce a traffic management plan for Slane, for which much of the fundamental analysis has been undertaken. We have undertaken some of it, while the council has also carried out some of it and the data are available. The council will produce a traffic management plan and it will be for it to decide whether to implement such a plan, perhaps on a trial basis to see if it would work. I cannot see any basis for going back to An Bord Pleanála and stating, "We told you before that a traffic management plan would not work and you did not accept it, but we are here again saying the same thing." We would just get the same answer from it. That would not work very well in achieving the end objective. Therefore, the council will develop the traffic management plan, but I do not know what its timelines are. I imagine it will take months rather than years, but it will develop the plan. It is not up to the NRA which has no role in deciding whether the council should implement it. That is between council officials and councillors there. If the traffic management plan requires extraordinary measures that would not normally be allowed on a national road, we will co-operate and offer support, given the difficult and unusual circumstances involved, but we will see how that unfolds. The NRA could certainly make a direct application to An Bord Pleanála, but the same considerations would apply. We were clear on the last application and if there is a future application through Meath County Council, we will be clear that the NRA is supportive of it, but Meath County Council must go through the other steps before we can get to that point.

We will certainly look at any proposal coming from our good friends in the regional office in County Donegal. It is an outstanding office which does great work. We will examine what can be done there. A lot of good work has been done on the Lifford to Letterkenny connection and the crossover from Lifford to Strabane has been approved by An Bord Pleanála. In addition, some work has been done on the Aughnacloy to Dublin corridor. I understand what was said and eventually it will be a full corridor. Earlier the committee heard all of my comments on the status of major schemes generally. We do not have too many major schemes in planning and development. We are unlikely to add a major development to the planning stream until such time as there is some prospect of being able to deliver it beyond that point. However, we will talk to the regional office constructively to see what it has in mind.

Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Once a project goes through the planning process and if planning permission is granted, is there a time period within which the work must be commenced or completed?

Mr. Fred Barry:

There is a time period in which the notice to treat must be issued and the land formally taken into ownership by whoever has received approval for the CPO. It is normally 18 months.

Michael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Therefore, it would make sense to have the funding for any project made available at the point where a decision is made in the planning process.

Mr. Fred Barry:

There is no requirement that the physical construction work should start. Therefore, one could have An Bord Pleanála's approval for a project and one would be required to exercise the CPO and start compensating landowners within a time period commencing within the 18 months or so, but it is fairly open ended as to when construction would start. There is a benefit in having projects pass through the planning process, even before the money is made available to build them, in that there is not such a huge time lag because it triggers a series of events. The procurement process for a major design-build project takes about 12 months; therefore, one has to have projects through the planning process. When people talk about projects being ready to go, it means being ready to go in about 12 months time. It is a long process, but that is the position.

As regards lighting, like everybody in the State, the NRA is examining ways to save on energy costs. We have investigated a range of alternative initiatives to make energy savings on the road network. We are implementing a number of pilot schemes with four local authorities to assess the benefits and their suitability for broader application across the network. We are using communications technology to allow control and monitoring of lighting to deal with the issue of lights being on 24 hours a day. We are also examining the use of LED lighting and a range of other measures, including wind power generation. From these will come measures that will reduce energy usage on the motorway network. It is a slow process because one must undertake a pilot project and examine the results. Many measures that reduce energy usage come with a high capital cost and very long payback periods. At a time when we are struggling to find money to carry out more fundamental work, we will probably be slow to divert significant capital to such measures.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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However, there is potential.

Mr. Fred Barry:

There definitely is potential. There is no question but that we will be able to find savings in the coming years. We are very active in that respect.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I sincerely thank Mr. Barry and Mr. O'Neill for attending and engaging with us. The discussion and the frankness with which they provided answers were very much appreciated by members of the committee. Road issues are staple matters for Members of the Oireachtas. We receive many representations on roads, as the NRA representatives will conclude from a lot of the questions asked today. I appreciate that we have had a lot of issues clarified.

Tomorrow at 2.30 p.m. the joint committee will hear a presentation by the CIE Group. Is that agreed? Agreed.