Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)

Six months. I probably could.

I thank the Chair. It was important to come into the committee meeting today, because out of all of the issues that I have raised relating to sexual or gender-based violence and the ten-point plan that we proposed, the counselling notes is the one single thing that has agitated survivors, therapists and the general population the most, not anything else. I think I can safely say that. We keep hearing these great claims of how it is so important for a fair trial, yet not one person has ever pointed to a piece of evidence that has emerged from a counselling note that was so important to anyone's right to a fair trial, but what we have heard is the massive damage that it does, of retraumatising, again and again, people who have already been totally brutalised in the most horrific way. We have to listen to survivors. We are meant to have a trauma-informed system and we cannot just blithely pass over with this claim that a constitutional right to a fair trial would be impaired. There is a balance here. There is a balance to a right to healthcare and a right to privacy. If people are going to say that this must be kept, they will have to give much more justification.

I want to make one thing clear. The way this meeting is set up today is completely at odds with what is needed. For example, no therapists are giving evidence here. There are some in the Gallery. There has been a movement of therapists against this practice over the summer and preceding it. All of the professional bodies, the psychology society of Ireland and the other bodies, have come out against this practice. They want it outlawed completely. That is a real lack at this committee. I would like to ask them why they feel it is so important, how it is impairing their relationship with their clients, and so on.

In the last 48 hours in this country, four people have been victims of male violence, plus a suicide. This is a huge issue worldwide and globally. What is this Oireachtas doing about it? Very little. This is something simple that it could do very quickly, but it is choosing not to. This is a misogynistic practice. In reality, it is used by the accused to intimidate and undermine the character of the person taking the case. That is primarily what it is for. That is shown by the fact that it has been constantly requested of late. That is why the Minister is now trying to make it more difficult, but in doing so, he is just taking the easy option, because the practice itself and the possibility of it being used is causing the stress and the trauma.

I heard from a Psychological Society of Ireland practitioner that a teenager has pulled out of their CAMHS counselling. This is a victim of child sexual abuse stopping their counselling because they heard this public discourse about the counselling notes. I hasten to add that I was approached about a week ago by a male victim of sexual violence, who thanked me for taking up this cause, because his notes had been accessed in a child sexual abuse trial.

Regarding evidence, hearsay evidence in general is not allowed in court. The exception to that is a confession, but it also seems that the exceptions to that include third-party notes. How do we know therapists are even accurate in their assessment? They could be prejudiced in their own way, could have had a bad day, could have fallen asleep or might not have been listening. How are we allowing third-party notes in trials when there is no basis for them?

I wanted to take up a couple of things. Dr. Leahy mentioned research. I would slightly disagree with her. I think we should move to ban the counselling notes. I am not saying we should not do the other things, but there is not a comparison, from what people have said, between therapy notes, which are your method of healing after trauma, and the accessing of this other information. I feel that you might be delaying a necessary reform by adding all the other things when it is clear that this could be moved on. One could also argue that there are more facts in the other things. These are third-party notes of somebody's therapy.

I will finish by talking about the deletion of section 19A. It is argued in the note that was sent to the committee that we are now rebalancing the situation. All that is being done is that you are taking it out of the hands of the survivor or victim and taking it to a judge. It could lessen the practice. We do not know, but it is still there as an option, and there has never been any evidence that it is needed.

Mr. Herrick mentioned these international bodies, which I think needs to be brought out more, and why they oppose this practice. What have they found? Is Ireland different from other countries? Is there some evidence of damage this is doing worldwide?