Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)

I am not usually first off the mark so I thank the Chair. I thank the witnesses for their submissions. When it comes to me, they are pushing an open door with regard to counselling notes. When I was elected last December, one of my first actions was to ask to meet with the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, to raise this issue about counselling notes and having them excluded from trials involving sexual offences. I brought it up in the Dáil subsequently and the response is there for everybody to see. I understand to a limited degree what the Minister is trying to achieve but I fully agree with Dr. Leahy that it is too limited and must be expanded to exclude all counselling notes and personal notes.

Perhaps I did not hear it, but it seemed that while Ms O'Leary talked about section 19A, there was no view in respect of whether counselling notes should be excluded. There was a fairness issue and an issue around informed consent. I agree with that. I believe the procedures involved would be more efficient in terms of time and cost. It would be better for the stress levels of the victims, rather than having to wait on a hearing application, to have that informed consent put to them, preferably privately. I would like to hear the view of the Bar in respect of head 19 and the exclusion of counselling notes. I thank the witnesses. They are pushing an open door when it comes to me and the exclusion of counselling notes.

On remote hearings, I accept that there are considerable efficiencies to be made in case management and certain applications. However, I tend to agree that all of us like to look at the whites of people's eyes when they are before us. We have seen the complications of remote hearings or when people are giving evidence. Technical issues can arise and that can be distressing. They also lead to complications. You cannot get a sense of what is happening unless you have a person there. I agree with that. I say "Yes" to the increased efficiencies from technology but "No" to remote hearings, particularly when it comes to criminal trials. I would like to hear the views of the witnesses in respect of the exclusion of counselling notes. I thank them.