Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)

I have been observing the meeting from the office for some time. It is really important that the finance committee is doing this work in the scrutiny of these COMs, and I thank the witnesses for being with us today. From the conversation and the debate, the lack of transparency is obvious. This is the job I can see that this committee is trying to do and indeed on the defence committee we try to do this as well. As in most cases, we have to follow the money. There is no better place to do that than in the finance committee. As was said, we need more information on all of these topics, like where the funding is being generated and where exactly it is being diverted from. All of us who have a mandate to be here in the Oireachtas have a responsibility to ensure that the taxpayers and the voters who put us here get answers to those questions. Senator Higgins made a significant point about loans that will have to be paid back in the future and asked what will happen if another member state does not pay off their loan? We are a net contributor to the EU. What is going to protect us from having to pay off that loan way into the future? This could be in the medium term or indeed in the long term. We are constantly being told that there is not funding for many things, including social cohesion.

We have long talked about the democratic deficit for the 500 million people who live in the EU in terms of money being spent, particularly for those who are left behind and who continue to be marginalised, and the widening inequality gap. That certainly deserves further scrutiny. It is important that all of the committees in the Oireachtas, particularly the committees on finance, defence and foreign affairs, work together to get to the bottom of how these things are being done.

There certainly is a responsibility on member states, not least ourselves, to invest in defence. This is particularly for us as there has been neglect when it comes to investment in our Defence Forces. There is nothing that should stop us from doing that, particularly to ensure, for example, that members of the Defence Forces have proper pay and conditions and that we are able to recruit at the level that we need. Obviously, we all realise the dangers that exist and we understand that, even as a small member state, we need to be prepared. There is nothing to stop us from being good neighbours and having co-operation in different areas. We can work well as a collective without going down the avenues which some are seeking to have us go down.

On the situation with regard to the competitiveness agenda in the EU in the name of simplicity, we again need to be very careful in the area of defence and how money is being spent, particularly in the context of the deregulation of that space when it comes to workers' rights, environmental rights and other rights across the board. Those who are very astute at using spaces to evolve their own agendas see this as providing an opportunity.

When I was a member of this committee previously, we wrote to the EU a number of times to try to prevent Horizon funding going to Israel. We do not know where that money ends up because research and development covers a very large area. Research into and development of weaponry or dual-purpose goods needs to be looked at. I would suggest that this committee writes to the EU on that again.

What else do our guests think we need to do to ensure transparency in the spending of the suggested €800 billion? If we do not buy into what we are being encouraged to buy into here, what will be the repercussions for Ireland? How can we safeguard the people we represent in the context of the funding of munitions? The final question Senator Higgins asked on cluster munitions and the law around them was significant. Can it be the case that the law will be overridden with what is being attempted here?

I thank the committee for giving me time to ask questions even though I am not a permanent member. I do not think anybody should be afraid of transparency.