Mr. Ger Gibbons:

My immediate response is, to go back to the contributions we made in our opening statements, that the other European countries that are judged internationally to be competitive, as Dr. McDonnell has said, all have higher levels of trade union membership and of coverage of collective bargaining than Ireland. In most European countries, the average collective bargaining coverage, that is, the proportion of workers who are protected by collective agreements, is about 60%. Under the adequate minimum wages directive, there is reference to a target of about 80% that is to be achieved over time. The latest figure for Ireland is about 34%. Our figure is the lowest of the countries that we directly compete against. The reason I talk about these other countries is that they demonstrate that it is possible to be competitive and highly productive by engaging in collective bargaining and social dialogue. The problem we have in Ireland is that there is unfortunately a refusal on the part of a large number of employers to engage with us. The kind of dialogue we are having here would not happen in a lot of companies, unfortunately. I am not saying that it is in all companies-----