Dr. Lindsey Liston:

We do, Chair. What we forget with the common application system is that it is a system that arose from systematic discrimination. Sometimes it is lauded as this positive thing, that we have a common application system. The idea is that every child will apply to their nine or ten schools and at the end of that application system, everybody will get a place but that does not happen. We had to put the system in place because it was not happening. However, the system that was put in place has not actually produced that either.

In terms of the transition, the wheels tend to fall off when children leave primary school and I would imagine it is the same whether it is in Limerick, Dublin, Kerry, Cork or Kildare. We have a huge emphasis on early intervention, and rightfully so, but those supports are not following on. It is like what was said that one needs an additional report to make sure the disability is still there and has not disappeared to someplace. What if one cannot get that report before going into secondary school? Oftentimes we see children get school places and there is no controversy or noise in the media and things go a little bit quiet. What happens is when the children are brought into that mainstream secondary school, they are re-routed out or are encouraged to go to the school down the road, the DEIS school or to the special school.

You have all of these types of things coming on. We are concealing the fact, because we are saying everybody had a place, but they are getting their place without any intention. That is the mindset of keeping them there, because the supports are not following the children.

We have adopted a policy in this country of concentrating supports in specific schools. What we are telling particular children in families who have additional needs is that if you want these supports, you have to go to that school because they are not going to come to them. What happens then is, when we talk about inclusion, we end up with this high concentration and clustering of children who all have the same needs or come from the same places because they have to go there to get the supports. We could not possibly have the supports following the children because administratively this is easy. Then we have situations where schools are looking at one down the road and saying it has class sizes of 17, but 15 of the 17 children have really high and complex needs. You may as well have 45 children in those classes. There are a couple of issues with the policies.

Even terms of the previous question as to how have we got here, which is a big question, it is a mindset. The institutionalisation of people, the hiding away of people and our history in Ireland of doing that, of turning away, turning a blind eye, pretending something does not exist, and thinking to hide it behind railings and let them deal with it, is holding us back. Behind, people are saying it does not work and we cannot put them all in together. In people's minds, we have a fallback on that type of model. We need to resist that strongly.