Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 2 July 2025
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, and Taoiseach
Engagement with the Minister of State with responsibility for the Office of Public Works
2:00 am
Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Níl aon leithscéalta faighte againn. No apologies have been received. Is mian liom na riachtanais bhunreachtúla seo a leanas a mheabhrú do chomhaltaí agus páirt á glacadh acu i gcruinnithe poiblí. Caithfidh comhaltaí a bheith i láthair go fisiciúil laistigh de theorainneacha shuíomh Theach Laighean. Ní cheadóidh mé do chomhaltaí páirt a ghlacadh i gcruinnithe poiblí nuair nach bhfuil siad ag cloí leis an riachtanas bunreachtúil seo. Mar sin, má dhéanann aon chomhalta iarracht páirt a ghlacadh ó lasmuigh den suíomh, iarrfaidh mé orthu an cruinniú a fhágáil. Iarraim ar chomhaltaí a dheimhniú go bhfuil siad i láthair laistigh de phurlán Theach Laighean sula ndéanann siad aon ionchur sa chruinniú ar MS Teams.
Fiafraítear de chomhaltaí cleachtadh parlaiminte a urramú, nár chóir, más féidir, daoine nó eintiteas a cháineadh ná líomhaintí a dhéanamh ina n-aghaidh ná tuairimí a thabhairt maidir leo ina ainm, ina hainm nó ina n-ainmneacha ar shlí a bhféadfaí iad a aithint. Chomh maith leis sin, fiafraítear díobh gan aon rud a rá a d’fhéadfaí breathnú air mar ábhar díobhálach do dhea-chlú aon duine nó eintiteas. Mar sin, dá bhféadfadh a ráitis a bheith clúmhillteach do dhuine nó d'eintiteas aitheanta, ordóidh mé dóibh éirí as an ráiteas láithreach. Tá sé ríthábhachtach go ngéillfidís don ordú sin láithreach.
I advise members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, a member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any members participating via MS Teams that, prior to making a contribution to the meeting, they confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Today, the joint committee will engage with the Minister of State with responsibility for the Office of Public Works. The committee is interested in the wider discussion on the operations and projects of the OPW. Areas of interest for the committee include the ongoing situation at Castletown House in County Kildare; the recent internal audit report by the OPW; the overspend on modular housing units; green public procurement and the implementation of green public procurement strategies by the OPW; flood defence schemes; access to heritage sites; and the OPW's property management function for State-owned and operated buildings and sites, and related concerns about properties being rented to former and current civil servants at concessionary rates. In this context, I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Moran, and his officials and invite him to make his opening statement.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
I thank members for the invitation to discuss the key issues around the 2025 Revised Estimates for the Office of Public Works. I look forward to engaging with the committee and answering members' questions on the work of my office.
The Office of Public Works plays a vital role in supporting the effective functioning of the Government. The OPW works to support essential national priorities, ranging from climate resilience and energy efficiency to public infrastructure and heritage protection. One of the OPW's most critical areas of work is flood risk management. As Ireland faces increasing threats from climate change, the OPW co-ordinates the whole-of-government approach to managing costal and river flooding. We anticipate that the 2025 allocation of €127 million will enable the OPW to progress a series of important projects in flood management. These include continuing the construction of six major flood relief schemes in Crossmolina in Mayo, the Glashaboy River, Morrison's Island in Cork, King's Island in Limerick and the Poddle river in Whitechurch in Dublin. We will also bring five further flood relief schemes towards substantial completion. These are Athlone, the Morell River in County Kildare, Springfield in County Clare, Templemore in Tipperary and the River Wad in Dublin. These schemes will provide protection for 775 properties.
Beyond climate-related challenges, the OPW is also the principal manager of the State's extensive management portfolio. This includes 2,500 buildings such as Garda stations, courthouses and central government offices to facilitate front-line public services. The allocation of €495 million for the estate management portfolio reflects the Government's continued investment in public infrastructure and effective estates stewardship. The OPW works hard to ensure best value for money in the outcomes of all projects under its management to support greater efficiency and oversight. New procedures have been introduced, including updated project management guidelines for small capital projects, while the OPW continues to follow the public spending code.
Energy efficiency and sustainability are centred through the OPW's mandate as key agents in the delivery of the climate action plan within the public sector. The OPW leads by example through leading energy retrofits, decarbonisation initiatives and sustainable assets planning. In the past year, the OPW has delivered energy efficient office accommodation for headquarter buildings for the Department of Climate, Energy and Environment, at Tom Johnson House, and for the Department of Culture, Communications and Sport, in Leeson Lane. Those are two examples of the OPW's endeavours not only to reduce carbon emissions and operational costs but also to ensure public buildings meet evolving environmental standards. The public sector data centre is near completion and will consolidate a number of data centres on one site to ensure more sustainable and energy efficient solutions than are currently in place.
The OPW also manages an extensive heritage estate, including many of Ireland's most iconic historic sites, which are central to the regional tourism and national identity. By investing in conservation and improving the visitor experience, the OPW strengthens Ireland's cultural offering and contributes to the economic viability, particularly in rural communities.
With respect to the administration fund of €92 million, the OPW's dedicated workforce, whose expertise spans a wide range of areas, enabled the organisation to meet its ambitious goals. The work is essential to the delivery of the service and enables the Departments, the public service and the community to operate safely, efficiently and sustainably. I thank them for their ongoing efforts.
Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Go raibh míle maith agat. An chéad cainteoir ná an Teachta O'Callaghan.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
I ask the Minister of State about one issue, which is the proposed new Garda station at Northern Cross. This was promised and announced in 2019, not by the previous Government but the one before that, of which the Minister of State was part. Indeed, he was the Minister of State with responsibility for the Office of Public Works at the time. There has been no progress on this station in the last six years. I submitted a parliamentary question to the Minister for public expenditure on this matter in March. The response stated:
The Property Management function on the Office of Public Works are currently carrying out site evaluations. Once a preferred site is identified the Office of Public Works will attempt to acquire this site. Once this site acquisition process has been completed the OPW, in conjunction with An Garda Siochana, will be in a position to progress the project.
That is a baffling answer because it refers to a preferred site being identified. A preferred site was identified six years ago. This was announced six years ago. There were discussions with An Garda Síochána and Dublin City Council about the location at Northern Cross, which is land owned by Dublin City Council. Announcements were made that the land owned by Dublin City Council would be transferred from the Office of Public Works. This all happened years ago. Why are we getting answers saying a site must be identified when there were announcements about this new Garda station and where it would go back in 2019 when Deputy Moran was the Minister of State with responsibility for the OPW? When is this project going to progress? Six years on from the announcement of this new station, we are being told a site has not even been identified, let alone the land transferred. When will the OPW get this moving?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
Once a preferred site is identified, the OPW will attempt to acquire the site. A masterplan is being developed for the Dublin metropolitan region northside. Once this acquisitions process has been completed, we will be in a position to progress with the detailed design and tender documents for the construction of the phases of this project. An Garda Síochána, the Department of justice and my officials have regular and ongoing engagement on all other capital project with impacts on Garda stations.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
I thank the Minister of State for the reply. Can he understand the frustration of the local community that the Government he was part of back in 2019 announced this new Garda station, told the local community it would happen, there was agreement about the site, and then six years later we are getting responses indicating a site has yet to be identified? After announcing this new Garda station and telling everyone it would be built on Dublin City Council land at Northern Cross, how is it possible that six years later we are actually going backwards and the senior Minister and Minister of State are telling us they have to identify this site, which was identified six years ago?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
The infrastructure guidelines of previous public spending codes will be updated and the business case will require primary approval to enter into the site acquisition of this phase. I cannot say any more than that to the committee. The Department liaises with the Department of justice. The site, as we said, has not yet been identified. When that happens we will move together but at this time it has not happened.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
That is a very unsatisfactory answer from the point of view of the community.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
I appreciate it is an unsatisfactory answer but it is the answer I have and the best I can give the Deputy.
Shay Brennan (Dublin Rathdown, Fianna Fail)
The OPW seems to be pressing ahead with a national children's science centre costing between €70 million and €100 million, despite the existence of a near duplicate facility in Sandyford, which is just 10 km away from the site of the proposed new centre. I am sure the Minister of State is familiar with Explorium, a world-class and fully operational science centre which has repeatedly offered to collaborate with the Irish Children's Museum Company Limited and the OPW. Yet, Explorium's promoters have faced a persistent lack of engagement from both parties, raising serious questions about duplication, value for money and the stewardship of public funds. How can the OPW justify proceeding with a €70 million project when a proven, larger and highly successful science centre already exists nearby and has actively sought to collaborate?
Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Topics need to be filed beforehand. Perhaps the Minister of State could revert to us with details.
Shay Brennan (Dublin Rathdown, Fianna Fail)
It is such a major spend and a major project that it is unlikely that someone among the seven witnesses present does not have some details on it.
Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
I understand that. We can have the officials speak to the committee but we must go into private session because when the Minister or a Minister of State is in attendance officials cannot speak to us directly.
Shay Brennan (Dublin Rathdown, Fianna Fail)
Does that mean I cannot proceed with this line of questioning?
Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
The Deputy can do so if the committee agrees to go into private session. Would the Deputy prefer to do that in his time? Is that agreed? Agreed.
Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
I will summarise what we discussed in private session. Regarding Earlsfort Terrace, it is understood that Government approval for the capital funding is required. Further clarity is required prior to the OPW progressing this issue. The OPW is the contracting authority and the onus is not on it but on the sponsoring Department to complete the cost-benefit analysis and a value-for-money assessment, subject to alignment with forthcoming infrastructure guidelines. As the OPW does not have the funding, it cannot advance this project.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
We will get a chance to talk about some of the projects in Donegal at a later stage. I invited the Minister of State to the county and I look forward to his visit.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
As long as the Minister of State takes the chequebook for all the projects, we will be happy. There are a couple of dates we do not want him to come down to us. We have the all-Ireland semi-final coming up and the final as well.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
All other dates are free. The OPW has been involved in huge controversy pertaining to wasting public money, with the bike shed, the security hut and properties that have been rented and are still vacant. Are there any other issues or concerns around value for money within the OPW that the Minister of State or his officials are aware of and which we in this committee are not aware of at this point? I have asked this question of other Ministers and their Departments. Is there anything the Minister of State needs to tell us at this stage or is there something we will learn about in the future?
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
The GPO is to be transferred to the OPW. Does the Minister of State know if that transfer has taken place at this stage?
Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
This was not one of the topics listed. Is the Minister of State okay to take that question?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
I will take it. The OPW is in the process of developing a masterplan for the site that seeks to identify the best template for the building and the relationship with the surrounding streets, and for improving its function. This will include the development of a number of options for the future use of the wider complex. The OPW will consult the relevant stakeholders when these plans are developed further.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
We heard from the Taoiseach that the site would be a mixed-use museum comprised of open space for office and commercial. In the Minister of State's understanding, is that space for use as State offices?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
It is there already, Deputy. The commercial retail end of it is there in the GPO.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
I am referring to the vacant space in the main GPO building, which all of us know as the iconic building we see as we walk down the street. That is the part being redeveloped. Is the Minister of State saying that commercial retail will not be allowed in that part?
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
Regarding the buildings that the OPW has under its control on O'Connell Street, Nos. 9 to 15 were either owned or leased by the OPW. Does the Minister of State have any information on them? Were they owned? Yes. Are they still owned?
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
That is a huge part of O'Connell Street. I am talking about the Clerys side of O'Connell Street. Does the area span the buildings from Burger King right up to the Savoy Cinema?
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
They are all five-storey buildings. Does the OPW know the occupancy rate for each storey of those buildings?
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
I assume there is a lease arrangement with Revenue. Regarding other buildings on O'Connell Street, OPW owns Nos. 44 and 45. Are those properties vacant?
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
Are there plans for them? The buildings are shuttered and have graffiti and broken windows. One can see them today.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
I cannot give any further information on them because of-----
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
We talk about the city centre task force, and these two properties arise in that regard.
I have some questions on the old Debtors' Prison on Halston Street and near Capel Street. Before the Minister of State took office, the OPW took housing activists to court to get a court order to evict them from the property. I am not speaking for the housing activists but the reason they were in the property is because it had lain vacant for decades. Even after the OPW took the housing activists to court, the property lay empty for more than ten years. Can any of the Minister of State's officials give him information on the old Debtors' Prison so that he can tell us how long the building has lain vacant?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
I will get back to the Deputy, as I am not prepared for his question.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
I appreciate that the Minister of State may not have the answer to my next question but I will ask it so that the information can be provided to the committee. It is suggested that it has cost €1.1 million to maintain the prison for the last five years. The property has lain vacant for decades and housing activists were evicted from it ten years ago. Please confirm how much has been spent to maintain a vacant, idle property for the last three decades.
Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
The Minister of State can furnish the information to the committee.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
I do not have to mention that we are in the middle of a housing crisis and all of the rest.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
To be clear, the area the Deputy is talking about may not be suitable for housing.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
The property has lain vacant for more than 30 years. Surely to God somebody in the OPW, instead of building bike sheds out the front, might look at a property there that could be regenerated into housing or something commercially sound. The only action that seems to have taken place is the taking of housing activists to court a decade ago to evict them. However, I appreciate that did not happen in the time of the Minister of State.
The OPW owns and manages property around O'Connell Street and some of the surrounding streets that have huge historical and cultural significance. Will anybody in the OPW or the Minister of State explain why the 1916 commemorative centre at the national museum on Moore Street did not open in 2016? It was promised, so why has it still not opened? When will it open? Is this another instance like the old Debtors' Prison where many decades roll by but nothing happens?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
Recently, I visited the site with An Taoiseach in respect of moving on the project. A huge amount of work has taken place to bring it to the point of delivery and I hope that the project will start in the not-too-distant future.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
We were celebrating the 100th anniversary of the 1916 Rising and it was proposed that there would be a commemorative centre in the national museum for that year. That is nine years but nothing has been done. Are there any plans? Is there anything we can see? If there is, then please send them to this committee. From what we can see, there is no date to establish a national commemorative centre by. How come that situation continues? We only hear soundbites. Deputy O'Callaghan asked about a Garda station that had been promised many years ago and has still not materialised. A national museum has never materialised. Nine years have elapsed and nothing has happened. Do we have an estimated date? Will we have a centre for the 110th anniversary of the 1916 Rising? Will we have it for the 120th anniversary? Maybe it will be here for the 150th anniversary. Has the Minister of State any idea when the centre is likely to happen?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
The design team is currently updating the programme, which will be shared as soon as it is available.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
If the design team is working on updating the programme, then that means the team did very little ten years ago. How can an announcement be made that a commemorative centre will be built on the national monument for 2016 and now there is talk of a design team? What scuppered the project? Is there any understanding of what scuppered the project?
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
I appreciate that. I now question my faith in the OPW when it comes to the commercialisation of the GPO. Our history and culture must be protected. People really need to rally around because I am very concerned about what the Government plans to do, particularly in respect of the GPO. I appreciate that the Minister of State will get me the information and my invitation still stands for a visit to Donegal. I will have the tea on.
Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Go raibh maith agat. I call na Teachtaí Timmins agus Burke, agus Seanadóir Higgins.
Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
I wish to draw the attention of the Minister of State to three issues even though he may not have the answers. He may have some knowledge of the third issue, so perhaps the meeting could go into private session at that stage.
The three issues relate to my hometown of Baltinglass in west County Wicklow. First, locals have expressed concerns about the safety of the structure of the 12th century abbey in the town. I have written to the OPW on the matter but I have not received any response.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
In fairness, the issue was not listed for me to answer today and I do not have a response.
Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
As Deputy Timmins has said, he understands that his three issues were not on the list but wants to raise them anyway.
Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Perhaps the Minister of State wants to comment on any of the three issues and we can go into private session to talk about them further, if needed.
Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
If the Minister of State and his officials have any knowledge, then they can raise their hands and we can go into private session.
Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
If that is the case with the other issues, then we will go into private session.
Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Second, the monks did a lot of work on the nearby River Slaney about 1,000 years ago to divert. There is a weir connected to the river. It is suffering erosion and is in danger of being washed away. This is an historic feature of the Slaney. It is right beside the abbey. The monks diverted the river for milling works. I have written to the OPW on this issue. I want to find out who is responsible. Inland Fisheries has said it is not responsible. I ask the Minister of State to come back to me and give me an answer as to who is responsible for the maintenance of the weir on the River Slaney.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
I will come back to the Deputy on that. This was raised with me already in recent weeks.
Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Tidy Towns has written to the Minister of State as well.
Third is a bigger issue in many respects, although all these issues are important. I wish to bring the Minister of State’s attention to this fact and history. The Baltinglass area has nine hillforts. It has by far the highest density of hillforts in the entire country. A lot of research work was done by professors and archaeologists from UCC. Dr. James O'Driscoll, Dr. Alan Hawkes and Professor O'Brien have been involved and a book has been published. They did further digs recently. They initially described the area as the hillfort capital of Ireland. They have now described it as probably the archeological capital of Ireland. I raised this in the Dáil a few weeks back and emphasised the importance of it. I bring it to the Minister of State’s attention to say this is such an important feature in this country. It is underdeveloped. Some digs have been done, but much of the land is in private ownership. I am working behind the scenes to see if can we get public access to these facilities and this amazing historic landscape, and I ask the Minister of State to take it on board and see what he can do to help develop this and bring it to a wider audience through the mediums of education, tourism, etc.
I got an email from Dr. O'Driscoll on 16 June addressing a research paper he did. He attached the paper, which he published late last year. He said it was the fifth highest trending archeology paper in the world in May 2024, which shows the reach of his and others' work and the global interest in the landscape. This is potentially a huge project that could be developed over the next number of years, and I ask that the Minister of State do everything in his power to help that project move along. I am working with Wicklow County Council and other bodies, including the OPW, to try to move it along. I ask for the Minister of State’s support. If his colleagues have any knowledge of it, I certainly would be glad to hear them speak during the private session. The Minister of State may not feel confident in discussing it.
Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
I wish to raise the Blackpool flood relief scheme. The Minister of State knew I would raise this. His office has done everything possible on it over the past six months. We began in 2013 and went on to a judicial review in 2021. The Minister of State’s Department did not instigate it, and it is an individual's right to take a judicial review. It is now back with the Department of public expenditure, but I got a reply yesterday that gave me no indication as to when it would go back out for further public consultation. I am concerned that this is now dragging on.
To give my own history in respect of Blackpool, I was chairperson of the community association there in 1994 and 1995 when I pushed very hard for the redevelopment of Blackpool. Here I am 30 years later and there has been some development, but much of that is restricted because of the "threat" of flood relief. For instance, property owners cannot get flood insurance and have difficulty in offloading properties as a result. Many lending institutions will not lend money where there is a risk of flooding. What can we do to get it to the next stage? There are three or four different stages after that before the works even start. What is the update on that issue?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
The Deputy and I have had plenty of conversations inside and outside the Dáil regarding this flood scheme. As he knows, when the scheme got consent, the judicial review, JR, came in, which pushed back delivery of this scheme. We had to comply with environmental regulations. The scheme has gone back to the Department of public expenditure and reform. We are waiting on consent. I would love to be able to offer a stronger answer and say it is going to start next week, but until it comes out of the Department of public expenditure, I have nothing to say other than-----
Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
I am concerned because this happened previously. In fairness to the OPW, it sent the scheme to the Department of public expenditure and then we had to carry out further environmental studies. I am concerned that, if there is a delay again, we will be waiting another two years because we will have to do another environmental study. Recently, someone who does this type of work as a subcontractor for various organisations like local authorities and the OPW made clear to me that that person had found out that when bodies do an environmental impact study, they do it not a second time, but a third time, and in some cases a fourth time, because projects progress and reports become out of date. I am concerned this will happen again in respect of the Blackpool scheme.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
Supplementary information has been completed by the OPW and was submitted to the Department of public expenditure on 17 April 2025. This report to the Department will carry the public consultation and information and will be made available on the Department's website. This will impact the closing out of the design of the scheme, subject to receipt of confirmation by the Minister. The procurement process for the contractor will follow, with the works to begin shortly thereafter.
Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
The problem I have is that the date for a public consultation has not been signed off on. If the Minister of State announces the date today for a public consultation, that will take a period of time. In fairness, it has to because the public must be notified of the consultation and be entitled to make contributions to it. I am wondering what more can be done. We have locked down an entire area of the older part of the city against any kind of serious development without some idea as to when this project can progress.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
It is a matter for the Department of public expenditure. It is the consenting authority. As soon as I have that consent, we will move on it.
Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
Okay.
I wish to address the increased cost of flood relief schemes and the average time they take from start to finish. With the Glashaboy scheme, we had major flooding in 2010 but it was 2022 before we got into a contract stage. Is there a better way to fast-track this as happened at the Department of Education and Youth? The time between a school project being looked for to when it gets delivered has decreased dramatically. That Department has been very good at delivering projects from start to finish. The same does not appear to happen with projects under the remit of the OPW.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
Since 2018 when I was Minister of State for the OPW, we have tripled the number of flood risk schemes that are under way. Fifty-five have been completed. The OPW is trying to provide appropriate flood relief schemes. The Deputy will appreciate that these are complex projects with detailed stages that take years to complete. When I was first in this position and now, I have always pushed to drive as fast as humanly possible to deliver a scheme. There are constraints, planning matters and various stages that I have to comply with. I have worked closely with a number of local authorities up and down the county. I was in Cork last weekend.
If there are interim measures that can be done as regards minor works, my office is always there to help the local authorities while they wait for a major scheme. In the case in question, the matter is with the Department of public expenditure. As soon as the consent comes out of the Department, I will work closely with the Deputy to deliver the scheme as quickly as possible.
Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
Another project in west Cork has been pulled by the OPW because of the cost. That project is regarded as too big. It concerns a coastal station. I have been involved in that for the past four to five years.
The latest on that is that it was pulled because the cost was way too much and they are now going back into planning again to go forward with a smaller building and a smaller project. Where projects drag on for up to 12 years, there are then budgetary pressures and increased costs. Is there now a need for the OPW to look at the whole process from the time a project is proposed to the contract stage?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
I am always looking at ways to streamline the delivery of projects but there are planning constraints, especially for environmental issues. In some cases where it is possible we are doing it, but in other cases it is not possible, for example, where there is a judicial review or a delay in planning.
Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
In the case I referred to in west Cork, there was a delay of about four years in purchasing the land. The solicitors had sent in the contracts for the sale and it took four years before it got to the signature stage. That delay was not a result of a planning objection. There was no objection to planning on the coastal section, so it is the process I am talking about. The time it took for contracts to be signed was four years.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
I appreciate that was the case with the Coast Guard building project in Deputy Burke's area. I would rather give him a definite answer but this is a policy and operational matter for the Department of Transport. An inquiry on the future of this project will have to be answered in the first instance by it. I understand that this project is currently on hold in the Department of Transport until further guidance is provided on replacing the Coast Guard building programme.
Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
Could this issue be looked at? This was a simple situation of a contract sitting on someone's desk for four years with no one being able to make a decision on it. Likewise, we had an issue with the Garda station in Glanmire some years ago that took six years from the time the contract was submitted. This was before the Minister of State's time. Then there was a decision by the Department to withdraw from the contract but later, because of court proceedings, it ended up purchasing the building and proceeding with the project.
The point I make is that they are two examples where there was a total delay, which should not be happening if we are serious about trying to get projects through from start to finish.
Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent)
My questions are in two sets - one relates to access to heritage sites, and I also have questions on the environmental and public procurement area.
On the question of access to heritage sites, Deputy Timmins highlighted the matter with a specific example, but I looking more to the principle in two or three areas. One is on a very practical and physical level, that is, the question of access to heritage sites in terms of a strategy, proposals or existing measures to move forward on the basis that when we preserve our heritage, we should also be ensuring access. There are examples of engagement in a specific situation but, more generally, has there been engagement with local authorities on public rights of way? We took a little bit of a backward step in recent legislation when we said that local authorities may publish maps of rights of way, whereas previously they would have to publish them. There are many situations where there are public rights of way to heritage sites. When we talk about heritage, that is often part of the intangible heritage that is associated with the physical heritage that is the responsibility of the Minister of State. There may be an old church with a particular significance for a community or a record of using it at particular times of the year. Has the Minister of State been examining access in general? I accept there are individual situations but there is also the question of dealing in a more strategic way with local authorities to get rights of way marked, recorded and registered or, in certain circumstances, if it is necessary, looking to partner with local authorities on the provision of physical supports for rights of way. I will ask the three access questions and then I will ask my three environmental questions.
Another aspect of the access to heritage sites issue is the fact that there are 780 heritage sites across the country, and we know that cultural communities in Ireland right now are in crisis in relation to space for cultural activity, performance and things to happen. I refer to cultural manifestations, people being together, performing, celebrating and all of these things. Are there any initiatives in terms of bringing those cultural sites into use either as cultural venues or creating mechanisms to make it easier for their cultural use? The OPW is listed in a supporting role on action 10 of the night-time economy task force, which was tasked with looking at piloting late-night initiatives with national cultural institutions. In general, I refer to the idea of access for cultural use, creative purposes or performance space and specifically the late-night initiative on cultural spaces from the night-time task force. Has there been contact with the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media on cultural activation?
I had a question on the GPO but that has been covered quite thoroughly. The Minister of State will be aware the Labour Party put forward the idea of art spaces within the offices, which is a nice idea. Perhaps the Minister of State could he answer the two general questions on access and then I will come back in with the rest of my set.
Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
I will briefly outline what was said in private session and apologies because my MS Teams is not working. The OPW works with land orders to record rights of way, the Department of heritage deals with property issues, and the OPW has a programme of work around the monuments for which it has responsibility. Regarding public rights of way, the OPW has no power. This is a matter for local authorities. It is an ongoing challenge but rights rest with the local authority. A note on the task force responsible for public rights of way will be given to the committee. Cultural activities are supported across the country on a local level. There are exhibitions by current and contemporary artists across the OPW sites. There is also late night task force supported programmes and performances in various locations such as the IMMA and Dublin Castle.
The next speaker is Seanadóir O'Reilly.
Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
The Minister of State has said that new procedures have been introduced to achieve greater efficiency and oversight. Will he just explain what the new procedures are, please?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
Is the Senator asking about new procedures concerning the auditor's report?
Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
The Minister of State said on the second page of his presentation that the OPW works hard to ensure efficiency and, to support the greater efficiency and oversight, new procedures have been introduced. What are the new procedures?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
The OPW endeavours to ensure value for money on all projects under its management. We have learned from past experience, and strengthened governance and procurement. We are currently improving how we do things. All projects are subject to approval, monitoring and audit to ensure that value for money is achieved throughout the procurement and delivery process. The OPW follows public procurement best practice, infrastructure guidelines and the capital works management framework to achieve economic efficiency.
Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
The Minister of State said that the OPW has an updated project management system. He might explain what that is.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
As the Senator will know, we introduced new procedures. For example, we introduced a new post called the head of internal audit, which is a principal officer grade. We have also issued new guidance on capital works projects with a value of less than half a million.
Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
The Minister of State said that the OPW follows infrastructure guidelines. What are those? I will tell the Minister of State what prompts the question.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
We are following the public spending code in relation to that.
Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
What prompts the question, and I will move on to something different then, is that in 2015 a new Garda station was approved for Bailieborough town in County Cavan. It is a very good job, it is in progress, it is lovely and it will be good. There is no issue there with the quality of what I have seen. I am not expert but it looks good. However, the station will not be open until next year at the earliest even though the project was approved in 2015, and that is why I ask about the new procedures. Are there any new procedures that might avoid such a delay in the future because that is crazy stuff, with respect? The Minister of State had not been appointed for a lot of this time so my question is not personal.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
As Senator O'Reilly is aware, it took us a long time to get the site and, as he said, work is continuing and it will be open next year. The acquisition of the site took a long time in the first place.
Joe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
It has been crazy. It is a case in point, and these repeat themselves. We should try to bring them forward and have quick and efficient delivery.
The Minister of State was with me and other colleagues in the mid-Cavan area several years ago during the very bad winter with all the rains. When there is significant rain which, unfortunately, is a feature of winters now and will be as it is probably a by-product of climate change, much of the farmland in the mid-Cavan area becomes submerged and goes out of agricultural production. Will the Minister of State comment on what drainage plans have been achieved and what is ongoing to prevent this?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
A lot of minor works money was spent in Cavan. This goes through the local authority, which applies to the Department for minor works. This happened in the specific area Senator O'Reilly has spoken about. If there are other areas on which he wants to work with me, or through the local authority and the Department, we will gladly work with him.
Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
I will ask my questions now and then those Members who are not committee members will have an opportunity to ask theirs. I have raised with the Minister of State previously in the Dáil Chamber the issue of the property management function within the OPW. I know from the response to a recent parliamentary question that since March, the HSE has had approximately 30 vacant buildings. Does the OPW manage these buildings?
Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
A number of vacant properties have been mentioned today. Are the majority of these directly managed by the OPW?
Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
How many of the OPW senior staff have commercial property experience? How many of them have commercial property management qualifications?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
We will get that number. We do have people with these qualifications.
Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
That is fair enough. It is a very specific question. This is an issue of concern I have and I have raised it with the Minister of State previously. I have been raising as an issue in recent years that I feel the property management function in the OPW is not working in the way it should. I hope the Minister of State will take a look at this and see how it can be managed better.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
We have very qualified staff in the OPW. I am confident as Minister of State to work with the staff to deliver for the people of this country. Since I have come back to the office, we have faced a number of challenges but, from working with these people, I can assure the Cathaoirleach that I will continue to do so and we will deliver.
Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
That is good and I wish the Minister of State every success with it because we have had many examples of it not working up to now. At the end of the day, it is taxpayers' money and there are buildings that could be used for all sorts of purposes.
Has the programme of building Ukrainian modular homes been completed at this point?
Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Does he know what the final cost is estimated to be at this point?
Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
What is the difference between the estimated cost and the final cost?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
I am not sure at this point in time. I can provide it to the committee.
Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
The Minister of State can provide the committee with the information.
A number of issues have arisen with the OPW and I have raised them with the Minister of State. I wish him every success and I hope we do not see the likes of what has happened occur again because it creates lot of anger. I am sure the Minister of State and his officials know this better than most from working in the OPW as they bear the brunt of it. It is something that causes a lot of frustration when it comes to the value-for-money side.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
I assure the Cathaoirleach that I am as conscious as she is, and as everyone at the committee meeting is, of value for money. It is one thing I bring to the table every time we sit down and discuss projects and I will continue to do so. We have brought in governance and I am happy with that. We will continue to work within the OPW to deliver value for money.
Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
I know the Minister of State will furnish a note to the committee on the leasing of properties to former and current civil servants. When did that practice begin? Does the Minister of State know when it began? Perhaps he is not sure.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
It goes back 800 years. The historic cottages on the sites-----
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
People work for them. As I said earlier, this is not only a practice in the OPW. It is practice in various bodies. Irish Rail had them for the railway gates. Bord na Móna had them.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
Correct. The properties we are speaking about are historic buildings. The people who work on site occupy the buildings.
Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
I thank the Minister of State. It was not clear for everybody from the start but I presumed it was people working on the sites. It is the same as what we had in the past, whereby people lived in graveyards if they were working in them.
Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
I am conscious a number of other speakers want to come in and when you are one of the final speakers most of the questions tend to have already been asked. I will now open up the discussion to others. I call an Teachta Cronin.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
I am delighted have an opportunity to ask questions at this committee. I am sure the Minister of State knows I am here to ask about Castletown House, which is in Celbridge in my constituency. In October 2021, the OPW submitted a business case to the Department of public expenditure for the purchase of land at Castletown House. It was an unopposed offer of sale but it was rejected by the Department. Through a freedom of information request, it was revealed that the business case had only been received by the Department from the OPW two days before the bid was meant to be made. That happened in 2021 and it happened again in 2022, as I have another document that I received through a freedom of information request. How much time would normally be given by the OPW to the Department when it makes a case for capital acquisition on the scale of the land at Castletown House? What is the normal time given?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
It depends on the bidding time and the process involved.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
In this case, it was two days and I have documentation from Mr. Conlon stating two days was not sufficient. How much notice would the Department of public expenditure normally get when a business case is made?
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
A lot more time than two days. Why then, when the business case was made in 2022, was there again only two days' notice? What measures were taken to make sure this would not happen and why did it happen again that there was only two days' notice of the bid in the business case in 2022?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
I do not have the details of the circumstances, as Deputy Cronin can understand.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
Will the Minister of State come back to the committee on that?
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
I would appreciate it. I mentioned that this was an unopposed offer of sale. Did the fact it was an unopposed offer of sale lead to complacency when the OPW was drafting the business case? Did it assume it would be successful regardless of the content and quality of the business case?
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
The Minister of State will get back to me in writing on this.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
The first business case did not comply with the spending code requirements because of an incomplete multi-criteria analysis and an insufficient financial appraisal. Given the understanding expressed by the OPW of the cultural importance of Castletown House, and that the sale was unopposed, how did the business case fail to comply with the spending code?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
I could not give the Deputy that answer today. As I said, I will get back to her.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
The spending code and value for money are important. We are dealing with taxpayers' money. This comes up all the time. While driving home a few months ago, I heard about the loss of income to the State due to the fact that Castletown House has been closed for so long. I was gobsmacked to hear we had spent €500,000 on traffic management, a figure which would employ at least ten people. Money is spent bringing cars up and down Lime Avenue. Why was more care not given to the business case and making sure that spending was in line with the spending code?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
As the Deputy will be aware, as Minister of State my aim is to resolve the situation.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
I know the Minister of State was not the Minister responsible at the time.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
As Minister of State, my aim is to resolve the situation in Castletown House. As the Deputy knows, I am working with her colleague and other groups. I intend to move this forward with the help of Deputies and, in particular, the groups in Castletown House. I have worked closely with people there, as the Deputy knows. I have engaged with Deputies in my office, as well as local councillors. I have had back-to-back meetings. I understand the frustrations of the people of Celbridge and the groups involved. As I took up my position, I reached out to try to move this forward. With the help of the Deputy and groups, we are doing so. The questions the Deputy posed relate to the past and I will get back to her with detail on those.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
I appreciate they refer to the past and-or were before the time of the Minister of State and Mr. Cullen in the OPW. Would the Minister of State agree that while it was unfortunate that the OPW only gave two days' notice to the Department in one case, it was certainly careless to do so again the following year? Does he agree that the mess in Castletown House and Celbridge and the upset it has caused the community are due to the incompetence of the OPW rather than any kind of badness, maliciousness or troublesomeness on the part of the good citizens of Celbridge?
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
I will say it. I will say it is absolutely due to the incompetence of the OPW. I commend the fortitude and bravery of some involved. This involves access to heritage sites. People in Castletown House, Celbridge and Leixlip who have tried to protect pedestrian access to Castletown House and keep the avenue pedestrian should not be sullied by the misfortune of all that has occurred at Castletown House.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
As I said, I will not comment on that. I do not accept some of the charges the Deputy is making today.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
The Minister of State will get back to me on why this happened twice.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
It is only fair to everybody at the table that I point out that we are working closely with all of the groups and public representatives to try to bring the situation in Castletown House to what I would call a successful conclusion. I have made huge inroads thanks to the people who work with me. As the Deputy knows, we are meeting again tomorrow and on Tuesday. While we look to the past, we also have to look to the future. The closure of Castletown House has resulted in the loss of business to people in the wider area who have spoken to and reached out to me, as I have done with the committee and public representatives. We should work together to ensure Castletown House is open, something to which we have committed.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
We want to work towards a resolution. We are all on board with that. We have to make sure we can open this to everybody.
Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Before I go further, as this is the first time I have taken the Chair, I will make the following declaration. I do solemnly declare that I will duly and faithfully and to the best of my knowledge and ability execute the office of Leas-Chathaoirleach of the Committee of Finance, Public Expenditure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, and Taoiseach and without fear or favour apply the rules as laid down by the House in an impartial and fair manner, maintain order and uphold the rights and privileges of members in accordance with the Constitution and Standing Orders.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
I thank the Chair and committee colleagues for the opportunity to speak. I congratulate the Leas-Chathaoirleach on his role. I hope not to make his first time as Chair a testy one.
I also commend the Minister of State on the commitment he has shown recently, in a very collaborative spirit, to work towards a solution in Castletown House that is agreeable to all stakeholders. I will start with a point because I mean it sincerely. Over the past couple of weeks, we have seen progress that I do not think we have seen up to this point. That is thanks to the Minister of State, the OPW and, importantly, the dedicated people on the ground who care so passionately about this land. I want to preface what I say about Castletown House with that.
As a new Deputy, I fully agree with what the Minister of State is saying in terms of looking forward and progressing together. I, along with many others, was not a member of the committee when this happened. There is nothing personal; this is our opportunity to learn. Why did the OPW not successfully buy Castletown domain in 2021?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
We put a business case to the Department of public expenditure and reform, which did not meet the criteria and was rejected. We were outbid by another party which bought the property.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
I understand that happened in 2022. If my research is correct, the business case was not approved by the Department. Was the land valuation piece crucial to that, whereby the land was seen as agricultural in value as opposed to green belt and recreational? Did that skew the valuation and costings?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
It is a challenge for us. I know where the Deputy is coming from and what he is trying to say. The OPW reached out to try to purchase the property. No matter what way one looks at it, we were unsuccessful. That is why Castletown House has been closed for the past two years.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
I thank the Minister of State. Did the feedback from the first business case influence the development of the second business case?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Is there a third business case to come? Is it likely that the learnings from the first and second business cases will inform the third one?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
I think the Deputy knows I cannot and will not discuss what we will do in public session.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
I have to ask. With regard to the Kildare Innovation Campus, which has huge potential, is anything preventing us from ensuring that the route from the car park in campus can withhold a bearing that has service vehicles on it? Can we seek planning permission that would include service vehicles coming through?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
As I said the last time I met the Deputy, that is something I will consider. I cannot give a definite answer because our officials are examining that. As the Deputy knows, we have a meeting tomorrow to explain the position to various groups and officials. We await that to update everyone together.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
I thank the Minister of State. I will finish by thanking colleagues for the opportunity to come to the committee and discuss this issue. It is certainly the first time I have spoken about it on the public record. As someone who is new to this, it is good to see a collaborative approach and have the opportunity to work with colleagues like Deputy Cronin, Senator O'Reilly, Deputy Ó Cearúil, the Minister of State, the OPW and gate protectors. We are very close to something, and that is thanks to everybody being at the table. I look forward to the meeting tomorrow and future meetings to come.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
I appreciate what the Deputy has said. I would also like to thank the staff in the OPW. They have worked tirelessly on this issue over the past number of years. As the Deputy knows, former Ministers worked on this. Our staff have always been there. Since my appointment, my staff have been to the forefront in trying to deliver this and to get Castletown House back open. I appreciate the Deputy's kind words and thank him for them. It is about going forward.
The OPW is frequently criticised. We take some of the criticism, not just in respect of Castletown House but across the sector. We do a very good job. I know the workmanship and craftsmanship on the sites I have visited and the good work that our staff do, in particular, Rosemary Collier, John Cullen and my colleague, Jim Casey, on the flooding side.
We want to deliver for the country going forward, particularly on the heritage side. I know from talking to the people of Celbridge who have contacted me regularly, they are on the same page as the Deputy and me. We want Castletown open. We want the house opened as well. The members of The Castletown Foundation have put a lot of time and effort in providing the purchase. It was my first time in Castletown two weeks ago. I was blown away by what a good condition the house is in. We need to get it opened for the people of the area and the wider community.
Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
I ask the Minister of State to provide a note to this committee from tomorrow's meeting on Castletown House.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
I have a couple of questions pertaining to Kerry. It is frustrating sometimes dealing with the Department of public expenditure and reform. With a lot of other Departments, such as the Department of Social Protection and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, there is an Oireachtas Members' line. It would be good if there was a particular line or person in the Department that we could go to with relatively small issues. On a national level they are small but they are important to the local community. I have a couple of issues that I want to raise. One is Rattoo tower, Ballyduff, north Kerry. People travel from all over Europe to see it. It has been closed to the public for about 15 years. Can the Minister of State let-----
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
These issues are not on the topics. I stay in the House every Wednesday night. I am nearly doing a clinic with the number of TDs who come up to me on that night.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
I know what the Minister of State is going to say. He is going to ask me to send a hard copy letter over to the Department. What I am looking for is an Oireachtas Members' line that we could use. I do not want to be burdening the Minister of State with every single issue relating to collapsing walls in Ardfert, the lights in the cathedral-----
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
I would prefer if Deputy Daly did come to me so that I could make headway for him. It would also mean that when it comes to forums like this I would be able to answer any questions he had. He can come up and meet me in the office any time he likes.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Can I raise a question I have already written to the Minister of State about? That is mar gheall ar an gclós súgartha i nDún Chaoin. In 2021, d'aontaigh an OPW go dtabharfadh sé suíomh in Ionad an Bhlascaoid don phobal i nDún Chaoin don chlós. Ina dhiaidh sin, tá deontas faighte ag an bpobal agus €40,000 bailithe aige. Tá cead pleanála faighte acu freisin.. In 2021, the OPW agreed to give a small piece of ground in the Ionad an Bhlascaoid to the local community. They got planning permission. They raised €40,000. They are still waiting four years later for the land to be signed over. Can the Minister of State expedite that? They cannot understand how four years after the OPW agreed to give them the land they are still waiting.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
I thank the Minister of State. Could he also look into the round tower in Ballyduff? It has been closed for 15 years. Similarly in Ballyduff, there is a small piece of land at the local Garda station, which is the only suitable site on the main street for a playground for the community. The piece of land is not being used. The station is not a 24-hour station. At one stage local gardaí said that they might expand the services from Tralee station and put an office in there; that is not the case any more. Would the Department consider giving that to the community? Kerry County Council will do all of the rest of the work. It will construct the playground. It is the only village in the whole of north Kerry that does not have a playground. The OPW can give that benefit quite easily by signing over a bit of ground in that Garda station to the community. Will the Minister of State consider doing so?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
As Deputy Daly knows, it is up to An Garda Síochána to lease that property.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
I have spoken to the local chief superintendent, the superintendent and some of the local guards. They all say that they can dispose of that piece of ground. There is a big curtilage-----
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
It is An Garda Síochána's estate management division that the Deputy needs to talk to about releasing the property. Then we will do our part.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
I ask the Minister of State to contact the inspector in Listowel or give me a number or an email for Oireachtas Members that I can use to try to sort out these little problems.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
The Minister for justice is the person Deputy Daly should talk to in relation to this issue.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
I was told it was the OPW that I should go to because they own the ground the Garda station is on.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
I do not want to sound negative or to go around in circles, but it is up to the Department of justice and An Garda Síochána to make that land available. If they make it available, then we can do something.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
If An Garda Síochána agreed, do I understand that the OPW will sign it over?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
Again, it is Garda management that needs to release the property. It is not the answer that the Deputy wants but I am sorry it is the answer I have to give.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
I have another question. There are collapsing walls at Ardfert Cathedral. They are protected structures. They are also waiting for lights in the cathedral. They have written to the OPW a number of times. The collapsing walls are on the way out to Banna beach. You can see them when you are driving in the area. The structure needs to be put in place again. They are ancient walls. They are there since the bishop sat in Ardfert, which is going back a while. Could works be done there? The closure of Rattoo round tower for 15 years that is one that is most pressing.
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
As the Deputy sits there putting those questions to me, I do not have those questions in front of me. I know the concerns he has. Through the Chair, unless I have the information beforehand, I cannot respond.
Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Other members have done that here today. We realise we will only get answers later.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
The Minister of State could come back to me with one point of contact. I know he is dealing with Dún Chaoin. An bhféadfadh sé freagra a thabhairt dúinn faoina bhfuil á dhéanamh ag an OPW mar gheall ar an suíomh sin?
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
When the questions are submitted to us, we will have the answers in the topics. This is my first time back since I got re-elected-----
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
I do not want to sound negative to Deputies or Senators. I want to be-----
Kevin Moran (Longford-Westmeath, Independent)
I am a man in a hurry and always on the go. I want to deliver for the people I represent.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
The Minister of State is clearly aware of the situation in Dún Chaoin. If he could sign the lease that would be it.
Edward Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
I thank the Minister of State and his officials. That concludes the joint committee's business in public session for today. The meeting now stands adjourned until Wednesday, 9 July when the committee will meet in private session at 2.30 p.m.