Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 1 July 2025
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport
Arts Council Grant Management IT System: Discussion (Resumed)
2:00 am
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
I have received apologies from Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh, who may not be here today.
Matters relating to the termination of the Arts Council grant management IT system is the topic we are dealing with today. The meeting has been convened with relevant officials from the Department of Culture, Communications and Sport to resume the committee's consideration of matters relating to the termination of the Arts Council grant management IT system. I welcome the following officials from the Department of Culture, Communications and Sports to the committee: Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh, Secretary General; Mr. Conor Falvey, assistant secretary; Mr. John Kelly, principal officer; and Ms Sinéad O'Hara, principal officer.
The format of today's meeting is that I will invite the witnesses to deliver an opening statement which is limited to five minutes. That will then be followed by questions from members of the committee. As the witnesses are probably aware, the committee may publish the opening statements on its website. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Before I proceed to questions from members of the committee, I advise them that while the committee has received detailed correspondence in advance of this engagement regarding the topic under consideration today, the names of individuals not present before the committee this evening should not be discussed publicly in today's session.
I also wish to clarify some limitations relating to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege, and it is my duty as Chair to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
I propose we proceed now with the opening statement from the Secretary General of the Department of Culture, Communications and Sport, Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh, and then we will take questions from the members.
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
I am pleased to have the opportunity to appear again at the Oireachtas joint committee and to have the opportunity to support the committee in its ongoing examination of the failed Arts Council business transformation project, BTP.
On the occasion of our most recent meeting, I referred to the findings of the report on the examination of the Arts Council business transformation project, which was published last February. Copies have been shared with the committee. The report found that there were governance failings in the Arts Council, and that, in respect of certain aspects, these failings were mirrored by failings in the Department's oversight role.
From the invitation received from the committee, my understanding is the main focus this evening relates to the engagement between the Arts Council and the Department regarding the project. This issue was examined in detail by the Department's report and I refer the committee in particular to chapter 7. There are a few points which I would like to note. After the initial grant of sanction, all decisions in regard to the project, including increases in the budget beyond the approved level, were taken by the Arts Council. The Department's approval was not sought. More broadly in terms of communication with the Department in that period, any correspondence was part of a much larger regular back and forth with the Arts Council on a very wide range of issues of an oversight and policy nature.
Speaking specifically about correspondence instanced by the council, following the discussion at the previous meeting of the committee, I asked my staff to examine the records concerned. The subject matter of the correspondence is as follows: ten relate to updates on the project provided at liaison meetings with the Department; 20 relate to the overall workforce plan for the council and other HR matters; 11 are the council sending on PowerPoint presentations given to its board about the BTP; and the remaining 17 cover issues such as BTP budget increases and timelines, the Storm report, arranging meetings, and press queries. Nineteen of them are after January 2024, when the decision had been made by the council to review the project and when most of the €6.675 million had been expended. The Department engaged actively with the Arts Council on all these matters through that period.
As late as September 2023, the Arts Council reassured the Department at the quarterly liaison meeting that the project was within budget and working towards going live in 2024. In an earlier letter in August 2023, the Arts Council assured the Department that "our new project governance structure is now working effectively and a revised launch timeline of Q3/4 2024 has been agreed by the Council".
In relation to staffing, the Department works within the processes set down centrally by the Department of public expenditure. It is notable that the overall approved staffing level for the Arts Council increased from 47 in 2018 to 146 in 2024. Since 2020, the Department has approved 162 delegated sanction requests from the council. These delegated sanction requests, that is, to employ new people, have taken an average of 14 working days to approve.
Regarding ICT staff, again, the Department was as supportive as it could be within overall the context of its oversight role and processes laid down centrally. It was not possible to approve posts at the level sought by the Arts Council due to the grade structure of the organisation, but the Arts Council was advised to advertise at a lower level and to revert if it could not attract suitable applicants at that grade. This was communicated to the Arts Council in July 2022, October 2022 and April 2023. Ultimately, in early 2024, the council advertised at that level and successfully recruited a director of business transformation programme at the grade of AP higher and, again, in March, when it successfully recruited an ICT director at the grade of AP higher.
The work of the Arts Council is essential to the development of the arts in Ireland. I remain of the view that, where support was requested, the Department tried at all times to support the Arts Council to successfully deliver the BTP and that, if anything, we failed to challenge it sufficiently at key moments. It is essential the lessons are learned and that we can move forward with confidence to further support the arts in Ireland.
The code of practice for the governance of State bodies provides a framework for the application of best practice in corporate governance by commercial and non-commercial State bodies. It specifies that the board is “collectively responsible for leading and directing the State body’s activities” and that the “board and management of the State body are accountable for the proper management of the organisation”. Similarly, under the code of practice, the role of the Department is one of oversight. The Department ensures the State body operates within the broader policy framework set down by the Government and that it remains accountable for its performance. The Department also operates a range of general oversight and liaison arrangements in relation to the bodies under its aegis consistent with the requirements of the code. All these arrangements are in place in respect of the Arts Council.
The matters are now the subject of a review put in place by the Minister and being carried out by an expert committee chaired by Professor Niamh Brennan. The Minister has made clear his commitment to the full implementation of all recommendations arising from that review. He has also made clear his concerns about the role of the Department in this project and the need for the Department to continue its work with the Institute of Public Administration, which I initiated when I took up the role of Secretary General, to bring further improvements and consistency to the Department’s governance and oversight functions.
There is another matter I would like to address as I have the opportunity, that is to correct the record with regard to a number of statements that were made when we previously appeared. It was stated that the business transformation project was wholly funded out of capital allocation and this is not the case. As shown in the Department’s report, €1.99 million of the €6.675 million is current funding. Also, regarding the costs of the legal redress, a figure of approximately €60,000 was mentioned as the cost to date. The Arts Council has since informed the Department that it is actually approximately €119,000.
The Department of Culture, Communications and Sport is staffed by civil servants who take seriously their responsibilities to stakeholders, agencies, the Minister, the Government, the Oireachtas and the people of Ireland. We support agencies in both a collegiate and challenging fashion to ensure compliance with their obligations and, critically, to deliver good outcomes for the public. This has been seen in recent years in the development and roll-out of the basic income for the arts pilot project; the response to the challenges posed by Covid-19 in the areas of sports, live performance and the arts generally; the delivery of the national broadband plan providing essential high quality connectivity to people in rural Ireland; the provision of modern sports facilities; and the development of a fit-for-purpose regulatory framework for the rapidly evolving media landscape.
The oversight shortcomings in relation to issues which have arisen in a number of our agencies in recent years is a matter of regret and I have taken steps to address these during my period as Secretary General. However, they do not take from the great service which the Minister and the Department is providing to communities the length and breadth of Ireland.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
I thank the witnesses for coming to answer our queries and for providing a detailed report and review. I appreciate that. It was lengthy, but I focused, as recommended, on chapter 7. One phrase that kept coming up in the early stages was that the BTP was progressing well. Will Mr. Ó Coigligh define "progressing well" for me? In other words, does the Department have formal testing strategies in place from the outset? Who signed off on each of those tests during the process?
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
As I said in the opening statement, the project was led, implemented and governed by the Arts Council. Those references to it progressing well are reports from the Arts Council to the Department. We were not in there on a day-to-day basis, managing, overseeing or governing the project. That is not something we can answer. It is safe to say that those were the reports the Department was receiving.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
Okay. Fast forward - it was not even that fast - to December of that year, when the first progress report that said it was tracking red was given, what was the Department's response? Was there a suggestion that the system could be abandoned at that stage? Why was the decision made to continue?
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
Again, it was a decision ultimately of the Arts Council, which took decisions to apply additional resources to it. Reading chapter 7, what struck me was that these reports said, especially in the early days, that the project had run into a problem and it was beginning to track orange or red, but it was okay because there was a solution. That was part of the overall problem and the reason the Department did not sound the alarm bells earlier. It saw a project - ICT projects can be difficult - where some issues had arisen, but it was okay, the Department was getting assurances they were being dealt with. That is fundamentally one of the main reasons the Department did not step in earlier to say "halt".
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
At the time, was the Department's approach to how to assess a process or business case flawed overall? Has that process changed on foot of this review?
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
A number of things have changed. The circulars relating to ICT projects have changed. If we were establishing that project today, there would be an external peer review group. In the Department, since I came into office, we have put in place a tracker system for ICT projects and we have a lot of detailed recommendations from the report, which my colleague Sinéad O'Hara wrote, which should assist in the future. Separately, the Niamh Brennan report on the overall governance and culture of the Arts Council will be important. In terms of ICT projects, a lot has changed, including our resources. We now have a chief information officer at principal officer level, which we did not have when this project kicked off. We are much stronger and more in-depth than we were at the time.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
Who ultimately owned the decision to write off the €5.3 million? What disciplinary or performance actions were considered or taken at the time?
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
My response was to initiate the report the Senator has before her, because it was a shock to me when it became known at the end of June 2024 that €5.3 million had effectively been written off and €6.7 million had been spent with nothing to show for it. I immediately ordered the report the Senator is now referring to.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
Will Mr. Ó Coigligh give an update on the status of the potential legal action being taken by the Arts Council? What process is being followed by the Department in that?
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
As I said at the most recent meeting, we felt we needed to consult the Office of the Attorney General. We have been engaging with that office and the process is ongoing. I cannot say much more than that. The advice is not to get in much deeper than that to protect the interests of the taxpayer.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
What measures are now in place that will ensure much more robust internal communications on and escalation of these kinds of governance matters?
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
There are two sides to this, one of which is the governance and culture in the Arts Council and how it operates. The Niamh Brennan report is looking into that and into the communication and connection between the Department and the Arts Council. Separately, last year, I commissioned the IPA to look at our oversight processes. Following the issues at RTÉ, it gave us a report that we are implementing, so we are already strengthening governance. I set up a new unit under a principal officer, for example. I want to bring a coherent overarching culture to our oversight and governance of all our State bodies. Following this issue with the Arts Council, I asked the IPA to do some further work with us to see how we are implementing what it recommended and what further changes or recommendations are required, such as training, bringing in consistency and so on.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
I come back to the phrase used at the start, "progressing well". Is Mr. Ó Coigligh satisfied that those recommendations are being implemented and progressing well?
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
Has Mr. Ó Coigligh discovered anything he would include at this late stage?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
I call Deputy Ní Chuilinn. It is Senator Ní Chuilinn. I promoted her.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
That is all right; I will take it. I thank the Department officials for coming in again. I was not sure where I would start, but I might just pick up on what Senator Comyn said about the legal challenges and where those are at. I was really surprised to see the clarification in Mr. Ó Coigligh's opening statement around the cost, and when the Arts Council or the Department was told to stop spending money on legal challenges. We spent a lot of time discussing the figure of €60,000 the last day. When did Mr. Ó Coigligh become aware the cost was €119,000, or almost double that?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
Chair, did we get a communication on this? The Arts Council told this committee, not the Department, that the figure was €60,000. Its representatives were asked repeatedly if it was definitely just €60,000. I asked a lot of questions about accounting and finance competencies on the Arts Council board. Did we get a communication from the Arts Council to correct the record?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
No. The only communication we got with regard to this was in this statement.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
It could be simple enough. In fairness, if it just came up, maybe this is the first opportunity.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
We will clarify that. I will ask the clerk to clarify that because in fairness to the Senator and others, they spent a lot of time on this matter.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
It would have been an important clarification to get from the Arts Council because, as Mr. Ó Coigligh said in his opening statement, these State bodies are accountable for public money. They are accountable for the money, and I think the Arts Council should have clarified that sooner than today, frankly, through the Department. It should have come straight to the committee on this because the €60,000 figure is now €119,000, and we have to wonder is that the final figure or just the latest figure.
Were the 60 items of correspondence cited by the Arts Council with regard to the project all about money and the escalating costs or were those 60 communications around the wider Arts Council?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
I have, but I just wonder what the breakdown is. How much of it is about money?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
It refers to Powerpoint communications and covering issues in the budget, so there are about 17 items on the budget. Did Mr. Ó Coigligh feel like he was up to date and informed on the runaway train that was the money?
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
In fairness to the Arts Council, it did inform the Department when the expenditure decisions were made. It should have sought the Department's consent and, as a corollary, the Department should have demanded that it seek our consent. However, it did inform us, and one of the issues we identified, which I mentioned in my opening statement the last time around, was that these issues were not escalated within the Department to a high enough level.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
When the €5.3 million was written off by the Arts Council, which was a surprise to Mr. Ó Coigligh, did that ring alarm bells for him in terms of oversight and governance of bodies?
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
Absolutely. That was at the last stage, in June 2024. All the decisions had been made up to that point and it was at that point that I became aware of the significant loss that was going to be involved on the project. I immediately - within weeks - initiated the review of the project.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
Mr. Ó Coigligh told Senator Comyn what had changed with regard to ICT projects and oversight since this all happened. What are his views on State bodies needing to have that ICT capability? There was a suggestion from Ms Maura McGrath that maybe that needed to be addressed. What is Mr. Ó Coigligh's feeling on that?
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
I think there is something in what the Chair said. It is challenging for small organisations to carry out larger ICT projects. For example, we have helped to resource the Arts Council in terms of its ICT capabilities. However, if bodies are having a significant development for a short period of time, there is an issue of how the State looks at that. There are processes in place now. There are circulars and peer reviews and things that can be done but it is a challenge, particularly in the world of higher security, cybersecurity and AI.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
Is it a challenge for all of those bodies under the Department's remit?
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
There are some very large bodies that would have significant technical expertise and do a lot of work. It is probably easier for those. As for smaller bodies that come at projects from time to time, we need to be extra careful in relation to those. Ms O'Hara may have a comment to make given the examination she did.
Ms Sinéad O'Hara:
There were a number of issues with the initial scoping of the project, which changed over time, and then also with ensuring that the resources were in place. Resourcing needs were identified and some resources were put in place, but it took time for other resources to be put in place in the project. That caused difficulties as well as the project progressed. It is a combination of factors. It would be important for the agencies concerned to ensure they have the scope correct and to seek out support where that might be needed, whether it is through the Department, the Office of the Government Chief Information Officer or the Office of Government Procurement, OGP, in terms of procurement of external resources. It is a combination of factors in that regard.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Ar an gcéad dul síos, gabhaim buíochas lenár bhfinnéithe. I noted, and Mr. Ó Coigligh outlined very clearly, that there has been a very clear commitment on the part of Government, particularly over the last five years, to expansion of and investment in the arts. That is something we should not lose sight of. He mentioned that we have seen an expansion in the number of staff in the Arts Council, which is right to cope with the level of demand that is there. Obviously, Mr. Ó Coigligh is here as Secretary General of the Department. He has an assistant secretary and two principal officers. Does he have a ballpark figure for the number of staff employed in the arts and culture section of the Department?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Yes, I said ballpark. I am very conscious that Mr. Ó Coigligh only became Secretary General relatively recently. How long have Mr. Kelly, Mr. Falvey and Ms O'Hara been in the arts and culture section of the Department?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
I appreciate that. It is probably fair to say that Mr. Falvey would have been across this over the whole period.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
We talked about the business case the last time. It is fair to say that there has been a lot of criticism of the Arts Council and its IT systems and how it handles the administration side. When was the Department first made aware that the Arts Council said it was going to engage people to try to get this new system put in place?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
The Department would have known before then that the case was made, so this had been wrapped-----
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
The Arts Council would have come to the Department and said its system was in trouble and it knew from artists and whoever else.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
That was accepted. A system was put in put in place and was operating. I went back through some of the records related to the IT system and I came across an incident in June 2023, which Mr. Falvey might remember, when the Arts Council sent out an email notice in error to 141 artists to say they had been awarded grants.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
If Mr. Falvey remembers, they got grants and it was written off as an error and so on.
Maureen Kennelly was the director of the Arts Council, and she was on radio and was very apologetic, and so on. The Minister came into the Dáil on 13 July to explain that. One of her suggestions to address this was that the Arts Council was updating its computerised grants system at the time and that would be going live in 2024. Given the problems that had been happening and, clearly, there was advice, was there any communication at that time? Frankly, this was a bit of a disaster for the Arts Council and particularly for the artists concerned. Clearly, the Minister had been told that the system would be going live in 2024 and she told the Dáil that at the time. Were any concerns raised at that stage about the computerised system?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
I am conscious that the Minister went into the Dáil in July 2023 and she indicated that to address many of the problems, this IT system would be in place and would be going live in 2024. Was that interrogated by anybody in the Department? Was it just that somebody in the Department said that the Minister has to answer a question and the Department needs to know what the Arts Council is doing?
Mr. Conor Falvey:
There is a whole process of engagement with the Arts Council through the quarterly liaison meetings under the code of practice. Within that, there is a standing item and, within that, the Department receives assurances from the Arts Council in relation to the progress it is making on the project.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Mr. Falvey will remember this. I certainly remember that in June 2023, this was a big problem. For those who do not remember it, artists were being told they were being given a grant when, in reality, they were not getting it. The Arts Council came out with its hands up and said it had messed up, it was an administrative error, it had to do with email trails and so on. The Minister went on the Dáil record, and this is the only reference on the Dáil record to the IT system. Everybody knew at the time that the Arts Council's IT system was a mess. Part of the solution put forward by the Minister was that this new system would be going live the following year. Were any questions or concerns raised during June or July 2023 regarding the IT system that delivered this mess?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Mr. Falvey was the assistant secretary in the section. I am saying this respectfully. This was the biggest mess that happened in the arts. People might remember that at the time, in June 2023, the Minister went into the Dáil. I do not know if Mr. Falvey was with her but officials from his section would have been there in June 2023. She went into the Chamber and said that part of the solution was this new IT system that would be delivered in 2024. My question is whether Mr. Falvey or someone within his section said to the Arts Council that it had really messed up on this one and really annoyed the artists, and that part of what people were being told was that this system was coming into place. Did the Department ask whether the Arts Council would ensure this would not happen again? It was very embarrassing at the time.
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
In my opening statement, I said: “As late as September 2023, [which was shortly after that incident] the Arts Council reassured the Department at the quarterly liaison meeting that the project was within budget and working towards going live”. That was in 2023. In other words, all the messaging coming from the Arts Council was that it was-----
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
I accept that, but Mr. Ó Coigligh will get my point. I think this is important. I totally accept that the Arts Council was saying that everything was grand. However, given that we had just seen a major mess-up in the Arts Council, which impacted directly on artists, did somebody from the arts section of the Department not decide that it wanted to go in and interrogate to make sure this mess would not happen again? When the mess happened in June 2023, what the witnesses are telling me is that the Arts Council said that part of its solution was this new system and that all would be fine, and, essentially, the Department accepted that as being the case.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
I am going to ask Mr. Falvey because, in fairness, he was the assistant secretary at the time.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Was it interrogated by the Department? I could say that everything will be grand but-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
Before Deputy Brennan comes in, I have a question. What does Mr. Falvey mean when he says he will have to check?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
I know exactly what Deputy Byrne is talking about. I remember it.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
I do not know what officials were in the Chamber with the Minister at the time. While we are here, can somebody go and find out? I do not want to have to come back to this again.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
I get that, but part of the solution the Minister put forward was that there was an updating of the computerised grants system and this would be going live in 2024. We can check the Dáil record. Clearly, the Department had been told by the Arts Council that this was the solution. What the witnesses are telling me, unless they can prove otherwise, is-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
The witnesses might try to get us an answer while they are here.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
I find it strange that the witnesses do not know that. I call Deputy Brennan.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
The sum involved, €5.3 million, is a huge amount of money. I come from a private sector background. Who is responsible? From what I am hearing tonight, the horse had bolted when the Department was informed. The damage was done. Who was responsible? Are those people who were responsible still in place?
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
To be clear, as we said, under the code of governance or under the legislation, the board and the management of the agency are responsible for delivering the project and putting in place the implementation procedures, the oversight, the project management, the governance of the project and all of those things.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
Can Mr. Ó Coigligh confirm to the public if those people who were at the steering wheel when this happened are still in place?
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
We know the director of the Arts Council is no longer in place. In relation to the Department's role, which was an oversight role, more needed to be done, and we have said that. Our opening statement referred to our failures regarding our oversight role. We should have stepped in earlier.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
I appreciate Mr. Ó Coigligh's honesty on that. I have asked that question before and I found the Department to be very open and transparent. I am hitting at the Arts Council and the people in the Arts Council who were at the wheel when this took place. Am I right in saying that the majority are still in position?
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
I suspect that the employees are. I think these issues would be best left to the Niamh Brennan review. She has been asked to go in and look at the culture and governance of the Arts Council to see if there are issues. That is probably where it is best left and we will see what that report points to.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
We are here to get answers. Are we confident that, under the current management, this will not happen again?
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
We have a report. I asked my former head of audit to examine the project and what went wrong. There is a very clear factual report on how that project was managed, with recommendations. What went wrong is explicit. However, there are other issues in relation to the governance and culture that the Minister decided he needed to investigate or have investigated, and he tasked Niamh Brennan, with colleagues, to look at that. She is carrying out that process at the moment. That will be an important report to receive when Niamh Brennan is finished.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
I am fully aware that the Minister has commissioned a report. Are there other projects in the pipeline now that could be completed before that report comes out?
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
Thank God.
Structures in any business will be seriously delved into as well to determine how the horse bolted when it came to that amount of money before the Department became fully aware. The Department continually got reassurance everything was fine. All of a sudden, almost out of the blue, it was told there would be a €5.3 million write-off.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
It is not only on the Department's part. I feel Mr. Ó Coigligh is defending the Arts Council for what is simply indefensible in this situation.
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
We were very supportive of the Arts Council. I made the comment that we were perhaps overly supportive and not challenging enough. We facilitated its growth in overall funding, doubling it from €70 million to €140 million, and the staffing level similarly doubled. There is an issue of how that was managed within the Arts Council. I am not kicking to touch but Niamh Brennan is recognised as the foremost expert in governance in the country. She is examining the council and how it operates. She will come back with an interesting report later in the year.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
I do not want names but did anybody lose their job over this?
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
Is the management of the ICT team which was in charge of a €5.3 million misspend - a write-off - still in place? It is a simple yes-no question.
Ms Sinéad O'Hara:
In terms of much of the management of the day-to-day project, there was a programme manager in place answerable to a senior manager in the organisation. That senior manager no longer works on the project. The programme manager who was contracted in from an organisation - there were two in succession - no longer works on the project.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
They are not on the project but they still work in the Arts Council.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
I thank the witnesses for coming to the committee again. I wish to discuss the relationship between the Department and the Arts Council. A lot of people from the arts community have come to me expressing concern about the change of name, which to some people might seem a small piece, but for a lot of people it is symbolic. That, combined with what seems now to be quite a public row, conflict or difference of opinion - whatever one might call it - has caused a concern that a long overdue boost to the arts sector over the past number of years will be pulled back or at least allowed to plateau. What reassurances can the Department give and what can we as a committee give to the people who work professionally and on a voluntary capacity in the arts and consume and produce the arts for us? What can the Department give to us to say that is not going to be the case?
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
The Minister was very clear that he did not want this to impact on artists. He made it clear this project failure should not be seen to impact on artists. That is important. That can be seen in his commitment to the extension this year of the basic income for the arts and his proposal to bring further proposals to the Government. He has made clear this should not have an impact.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
I will get into governance probably for the rest of my time. I appreciate Mr. Ó Coigligh said Ms Brennan will carry out a review but I would have thought that what we air in this committee could inform that review and there might be issues. I come at this as somebody who in my previous role was the director and chief commissioner of IHREC, which is essentially the chair and CEO role of a State body. It is a full-time chair role so it is slightly different. It is very different agency with increased independence. I feel obliged to speak up for State agencies because I understand the unique dynamic between agencies and Departments. I heard from the witnesses, for example, that the Department supported more than challenged the Arts Council. Sanctions and business cases were spoken about. I know from experience how frustrating and difficult it is as a State agency when you repeatedly seek sanction and put forward business cases for all sorts of resources - human resources as well as everything else - and you are knocked back again and again. It is very much a "computer says no" response. I appreciate the Department provides support but it does so within the parameters of the broader Civil Service which suits Government Departments but does not suit the wide variety of State agencies. There is no consistency over those State agencies. I want to drill down into the specific recruitment question. It is at the heart of this matter. The Arts Council sought a senior person which potentially could have helped to avoid all of this. When such a recruitment business case is received from an agency, be it the Arts Council or any other body under the aegis of the Department, who is the decision-making person on that sanction? Is it Mr. Ó Coigligh as the Secretary General?
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
It would not be me. I would not be involved in the day-to-day sanctioning of posts in an external organisation. It would be the unit, which would in turn refer the matter to the HR unit within the Department, which is in charge of ensuring the central policies laid down by Department of public expenditure are enforced by the Department. You can see the chain.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
That is my point. The Department of public expenditure says "No". When the Department itself does not want to say "No", it says that the Department of public expenditure says "No". There was a risk associated with not allocating seniority to this role. A decision was made not to give the Arts Council a principal officer but to give it a higher executive officer. That, arguably, resulted in governance failures in the oversight of the project. When that was being considered, was it considered alongside other agencies? For example, was an assistant principal or principal officer role granted to another agency or the Department? Is there a risk analysis? How does the Department take all of the requests that come at it? Are they centrally pooled? Are they reviewed in one picture to avoid this kind of situation?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
Does the Department have a picture of that process? I would have thought the Arts Council could have articulated the risk, regardless of whether it did it effectively. Who in the Department had sight of the risk if it was not given a senior enough role? How is it compared to the other recruitment and sanctioning?
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
There are rules in place. The Arts Council looked for a principal officer. It was sanctioned for an assistant principal higher, which is not that far off. It was advised three times to go to the market at that level and if it failed to recruit somebody at that level, to come back to the Department. It took the Arts Council a year and a half to accept the Department's advice. It went to the market and recruited somebody who seems to be very effective. One could say it had an ambition for a higher level but the public pay rules in terms of the top of the pyramid - what the chief executive and the deputy chief are on and reporting lines - are rules we have to abide by, frustrating as they are. That was one of the issues in this case.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
I urge the Department when Ms Brennan is looking at this review that it could inform her thinking to look at State agencies and the dynamics. If you only have a small staff and you have requests, you consistently get this answer from your parent Department. We know it is not just about staff. In lots of different ways, you are lost in the melee. I am a member of the Association of Chief Executives of State Agencies. There is frustration and difficulty across State agencies that there is no consistency and that one is expected to operate in a system designed for much bigger bodies.
That is a really important element the Department might consider within the governance analysis of this.
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
That is not to forget that, accepting all that - because we all operate within the system and suffer those frustrations - all the agencies in the Department look for more resources. We sanctioned 160 posts for the Arts Council between 2020 and 2025. That is huge delivery, notwithstanding any frustrations.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
I appreciate that. I get all of that but the other part of it is that one key role. An agency does not operate on the same basis as a Department where principal officers are not ten-a-penny but there are a lot more of them than in a State agency. A year and a half is a long time to be without someone you were expecting to come in a little earlier. You are dealing with the PAS and all of the different delays that come with this.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
When Mr. Ó Coigligh said "that offer sooner", which offer was he referring to? Was he referring to the offer of the assistant principal?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
Try and find an IT person under that wage structure. Trust me-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
I know it did but trying to find an appropriate one is difficult. I was there; I was that soldier. I am probably the only person inside here who was an IT manager.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
I have a couple of points. I know there were a lot of mentions of the former director not being reappointed. I think the Minister was right not to agree to a five-year term subject to all this happening and before everything related to this fiasco was teased out. I think he was right with regard to that. All contracts for delivery of the system were entered into after the appointment of the former director. Despite the fact that a good job was done in the role, I think the Minister was right to hold off on another five-year term.
On the legal bill, what are the costs associated with this?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Have we, as committee members, been furnished by the witnesses with all pertinent documentation we need related to this?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Did we, as a committee, receive any documents from the Arts Council to highlight this?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
I am sorry. Apologies.
Moving back to the issue of people in roles, it was mentioned that two of the management people were in outside organisations and came in from there. Was the senior manager associated with it a Department official or an Arts Council official?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
They were senior management and are still in the same role at the same level within the organisation, the same as the person in the Department who got 60 pieces of correspondence and did not pass it up the chain of command to highlight the concerns given by the Arts Council. All of these people are still in roles at the same level as previously, despite over €5 million of a loss to the taxpayer.
Ms Sinéad O'Hara:
There was a management and governance structure in place within the Arts Council. There was a project execution team and then there was a stakeholder board, subsequently a steering committee, that was overseeing the work and then reported into the business and finance committee and plenary of the Arts Council. There was a governance structure in place beyond the project execution team itself. That is for clarification.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
In any other organisation or local club - for example, in my GAA club at home where I am involved - if anything is done wrong, you will not be in the same position; you will be gone. There seems to be a situation here where the level of mistakes or mismanagement - I do not know what the right word is - does not seem to matter. You stay at the same level. There are no consequences for making massive mistakes that cost the taxpayer. You hold onto a job at the same level. There is no other organisation in the country where that happens. At a local level, in my own parish, I would not be in the same position in my club, which I was involved with for 30 years, if I did something wrong for a few hundred euro. You would be gone and rightly so because you are managing the finances of your local community.
These are the finances of the taxpayer, and it is very difficult to look in and see that where serious and massive mistakes are being made at a loss to the taxpayer, there does not seem to be any consequences at all. We move on and do a review of it until something happens the next time and then we do a review of that again. I do not think it is acceptable, to be quite honest but that just seems to be the answer. People who made serious mistakes are in an organisation at the same level and still being paid for by the taxpayer, despite losing taxpayers' money.
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
I am not satisfied about what happened. I was shocked at the loss. I initiated the investigation but I also know that there was no ill intent and that the officials in the Department work very hard for the public, including the officials dealing with this area, some of whom were working seven days a week during Covid supporting artists and rolling out schemes under terrible pressure. I am satisfied that they are hard-working. Mistakes were made and everybody regrets those mistakes. We have to ensure they do not happen again. It is maybe not the answer the Deputy is looking for but from where I am sitting as Secretary General, I want to provide the best service to the country that I can in my Department. We are providing fantastic services up and down the country. I need to focus on that while ensuring that when mistakes happen, they are rectified and do not happen again and we do not suffer losses for the taxpayer. It is a profound regret that this has happened.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
Before Senator Ahearn comes in, I am looking for clarification on a matter. I did not want to interrupt Mr. Ó Coigligh. With regard to all contracts, was the former director in place or were some of the contracts not signed before that, from memory? In fairness, I did not want to be incorrect. I do not think that statement is totally accurate but not deliberately so. I want to be sure, to be fair to the person. I think some of it was before that person's time.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
I thought that. I wanted to make that correction.
Second, I am looking for another clarification. On the assistant principal posts, were there not two assistant principal posts?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
I wanted to make sure we were on the same page on both of those issues. There is one other matter, but I will come back to it. Senator Ahearn is next.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
I have been in and out of the meeting for votes in the Seanad and have missed things so if I ask a question that has been asked already, my apologies.
Mr. Ó Coigligh said that he has confidence that things have changed within the Department, and that he was not satisfied when he came in first about the situation with the Arts Council. He said when he was in here with the Arts Council a number of weeks ago that he is confident that things have changed, that oversight on the Arts Council has improved, and that the Department is more diligent in finding out for sure that things are as people say they are. When did Mr. Ó Coigligh find out that the Arts Council spent double the amount of money on legal fees?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Therefore, when the officials came here a couple of weeks ago with the Arts Council and it said it had spent €60,000 on legal fees so far they were, like us, of the view that information was correct. That bill comes back on the Department, so there are people pushing a legal case they do not personally have to pay for, or certainly the Arts Council does not, and we have now found it is double. A number of weeks ago the officials gave an indication they were concerned about the court case. Has this strengthened their concern or do they feel so much money has been pumped into it now that they have to keep going?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Do the officials know when the Attorney General's office will come back to them with that advice? They did not two weeks ago, but do they now?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
The Department had told the council to cease any work until the Attorney General came back with the advice.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
To clarify, we are not wronging anyone because we have been down this road already. When the officials told the Department to cease, had that work been commissioned before then?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
And did they specifically ask whether there were any legacy issues? Probably not.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Now it is €119,000, have the officials got confirmation that is it and there is nothing else that is going to be paid for?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
We have to be careful there with use of language. I ask you to withdraw that word.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
I withdraw the word "lie". The council did not give the Department the full information.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
The council has a tendency to do this because when I asked it about taking on staff in IT at the time its representatives said they got no staff, but what they meant was they got no staff at a certain level, so they have a tendency to - what is the phrase I am allowed to use? - mislead.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Once the council started the legal case, was there anyone in the Department who would have been in consultation or constant contact with the council on an ongoing basis about how the case was going, how much it was costing, what the council was doing, who it was against and how much that was going to cost? Is there anyone in the Department who had constant interaction with the Arts Council on this?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
But once the council decided to, surely there was someone in the Department who would have had a back-and-forth with the council to see how it was going.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
I am not looking to go that far either. At the time it was-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
We have to be very clear here. At the time €60,000 was the amount. Subsequently another bill came in, by the looks of things, which made it nearly double that.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
All right, I will put it to the officials another way. Two weeks ago, did they believe the council only spent €60,000?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Does Mr. Ó Coigligh believe, from the Department's dealings with the council, that is an ongoing issue?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
I know. Just to be clear - and this is for clarity rather than in my time - when the council representatives were in here, at that time there was the €60,000 and they were not aware of the subsequent figure. Would that be accurate?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
I understand that. Mr. Kelly is saying they could have said €60,000 plus whatever the piece we had already commissioned before the Department told them to stop. At the time though, what the council representatives were actually aware of was just the €60,000. Is that correct?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
Okay, but from the officials' conversation last Thursday - I am trying to get to the bottom of this because four or five people have been at it now - Mr. Kelly got a phone call to say the bill was €119,000.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
Okay, so we understand that bills lag and we understand there was a date where the Department said "No more". We also know there was other work commissioned prior to the Department saying "No more". Are we all together on that bit? However, a bill came in subsequent to that work.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
We would have to take it - we will clarify with the Arts Council through the clerk - that presumably that bill came in after the council was in here. By the sounds of things it was fairly recent.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
A bill would not come for €60,000 out of the blue. The council must have known.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
We discussed that earlier. It was just in relation to the fact work had been commissioned before the Department said "Stop".
Mr. John Kelly:
Sorry Chair, if you wish I can break down what the bills were. We were told it was €60,000, so for that firm it was actually €67,000 but the VAT element had not been included. That was 23%. The other bill was €29,000, again plus VAT. That came to €119,000 and I confirmed that with the council.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
I have a few questions. On 3 August 2023 there was correspondence from the former director to the PO. It said the capital budget for the project has been agreed at a figure that is blanked. It is like "Blankety Blank". What is the blank?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
Yes. It is redacted, so I would like to know what the figure is. Just the figure.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
Okay.
The Secretary General said the loss of €5.3 million was a bolt out of the blue, or I am paraphrasing. It says in the email that the capital budget for the project had been agreed at €6.6 million.
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
It was in April 2023 when the board of the Arts Council decided to apply a further €3 million, or thereabouts, to the project. They did not seek sanction for that so there absolutely was an awareness within the Department that expenditure on the project was now going beyond €6 million of the €6.6 million.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
I am not sure about the language used in that, if I am being honest and fair as regards the shock element. I think there was an awareness in relation to the scale of this project. My real issue here is about the escalation procedure. In fairness to Mr. Ó Coigligh, in his statement he has apologised, I have to acknowledge that, and he has apologised in a pretty comprehensive way. I have previously worked in IT in a semi-State organisation, when codes were slightly different I will admit as it was a long time ago. I have gone through all these correspondences and tried to fill in the blanks but the nub of the question here today is whether Mr. Ó Coigligh can explain how this was not escalated up in his Department. I am not saying it is Mr. Ó Coigligh, but as the Accounting Officer for the Department now can he say why this was not escalated up? I will not get into all the other reports, including that from Professor Niamh Brennan. I am absolutely certain that smaller organisations that report into any other Department or Mr. Ó Coigligh's Department need help when it comes to IT projects, there is massive corporate letting across the whole State in relation to that, and we cannot repeat the same level of IT departments in all of these organisations as that would be impractical. However, how can Mr. Ó Coigligh explain that the issue did not get escalated given all the correspondence we have seen?
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
I think there was capture, in other words, the officials working with the Arts Council in helping them out and helping them get resources under pressure, and as the project went from the €2.87 million, which was sanctioned, it was a case of we will apply another €300,000, we will apply another €300,000, and we will apply-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
Potentially what Mr. Ó Coigligh is saying is that in fairness to those in the Arts Council they were engaging with the Department.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
They were looking for help. We can all see that in writing. They were looking for significant help but at a certain level in the Department there was capture and no one called halt and no one escalated.
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
That goes on both sides. There was a lot of engagement between the director and the Secretary General, and the Minister and the chair over this. Not once was this mentioned as a problem. The chair's letter to the Minister, which the chair is obliged to write every year, in 2021, 2022 and 2023 made absolutely no reference to this-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
So what Mr. Ó Coigligh is saying to all of us in the committee, and this is new information, is that outside of the information and outside of the fact the Arts Council director escalated this to the Department, and I accept that there is correspondence at various different levels on about 59 occasions, essentially outside of all that there was no correspondence, communication or reference to this issue whatsoever at any level higher than that ever.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
That is bloody well incredible. That would not have happened in my day and I am gone from IT since 2007.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
I am not going to ask the question, "How will you make sure it will not happen again?".
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
Can I ask whether Mr. Coigligh has any regret regarding the handling of this and the subsequent decision not to reappoint the director?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
I understand that and Mr. Ó Coigligh does not have to repeat it.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
That is not the question I asked, with all due respect. I asked if Mr. Ó Coigligh had any regret in relation to how this project was handled and the subsequent decision not to reappoint the director of the Arts Council?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
Mr. Ó Coigligh still has not said whether he has or has not. He has to answer the question.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
Do not take this wrong but Mr. Ó Coigligh still has not answered the question. It is fine if he does not but he either does or does not have regret.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
Mr. Ó Coigligh did not answer the question but I cannot ask him a fifth time. I could but we would be here all day.
With regard to the Department of public expenditure and reform, Deputy Gibney referred to getting something signed off, the structures within the Department of arts and culture, the structures within the Department of public expenditure and reform, and then the separate structures within the Arts Council, along with grading issues and so on. I have sat on both sides of the fence on this issue as well. Is there a real concern around the rigidity of how agencies are staffed? I remember when hiring IT individuals that professionally they can be at a different level grading wise for pay because they are so qualified. It is a demand requirement for them. Is the whole process too rigid with the Department of expenditure and reform when flexibility may be needed to be able to help an organisation like the Arts Council, and in Mr. Ó Coigligh's own Department? I am not asking Mr. Ó Coigligh to criticise the Department of public expenditure and reform but would he concur that there should be a greater understanding or flexibility in relation that?
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
Looking towards the future, was the Department satisfied that the off-the-shelf version of the IT system was going to be better and more beneficial even though it was going to be more costly? Was it justified?
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
The option B was where the Arts Council wanted to go after the decision to end first project. We just put a halt to that because I do not think any of us had any confidence that we could support a significant additional expenditure of taxpayers' money until we understood what went wrong and how not to do that again.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
With the original system, was it justified spending that amount of money and that it was going to be better than an off-the-shelf version?
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
Back in the day - and I think this was an issue those in the Arts Council addressed - they felt that their advisers were advising them not to go for an off-the-shelf system and that they should develop a bespoke system. I believe this was one of the fundamental original sins of the whole project and that it became a system that was far too complex for the Arts Council's needs. There was project creep and too many cooks. The scope of what they got, and what they intended to do, began to spread and spread instead of simplifying it. It was doomed from early on. Ms O' Hara has looked at this in detail.
Section to follow:
Ms Sinéad O'Hara:
The original business case, and what subsequently went out to tender, was for an online web form portal and not an off-the shelf system. That would be integrated into the workflow engine of the Arts Council. As what went out to tender for development was part of an integrated five-system workflow engine, shall we say, an off-the-shelf or out-of-the-box solution was not going to work. The Arts Council looked at that option with its external advisers, who offered advice. That was why it went for a different system.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
Here we are over €6 million later and we are back to an off-the-shelf product. What procedures are in place to establish that the concerns or issues will not arise again?
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
Ms O'Hara made 16 recommendations as to how to move forward. I stopped any expenditure until Ms O'Hara's report was available. It was finalised at the beginning of the year. The Minister said he wanted to hear the outcome of the Professor Niamh Brennan review. At that point, we will consider how to move forward.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
Mr. Ó Coigligh said that he parked that. Did he mean that the off-the-shelf system was parked?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
I know. Does that mean the system to which Deputy Byrne referred, which failed in 2023, is still being used now by the Arts Council?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
I do not know if that was clear a couple of weeks ago. I think we assumed the Arts Council got the off-the-shelf system up and running. I will not take too much longer. In respect of the Professor Niamh Brennan review of governance, is an interim report expected? Is it a case of waiting until the report is finished?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
Do we have any idea how much it will cost or is it a case of however long it goes on-----
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
The Department maintains a risk register. Does that just apply to actions of the Department or does it also cover agencies within the aegis of the Department?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Is there a requirement on any of the agencies if something of concern is reported?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
If the Department is entering a contract above a particular sum of money, is there a requirement for it to be cleared by the management team?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Any contract above €25,000 must go to the management team. When I asked Mr. Falvey earlier, he said that we all knew in 2018 that the IT system was a problem. The Arts Council was pitching for a replacement in 2018. What was the Department's knowledge of what the cost of the system would be? We knew the system was not adequate. In 2018, was a cost provided to the Department?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
In 2018, it was €2.87 million. We moved from €2.87 million to €6 million. When did the Department become aware that the cost was starting to go up from €2.87 million?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
To follow the point, I assume the mess that happened in the middle of 2023 was discussed at the management committee because of how serious an issue it was. The then Minister had to go into the Dáil to answer questions and there was widespread coverage in the media. As we have found out, the Arts Council was continuing the same old system but it was clear there were many flaws. In mid-2023, what was the estimated cost of the system?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
In 2018, the cost was €2.87 million. What was the total in 2023 between capital and current spending?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
This was in mid-2023. We knew the system was a mess and a problem at that stage.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
I appreciate that. We know from 2018 that the old system had to be replaced even though, as we have discovered, the Arts Council is still using the old system. Everyone will recall that we knew where the system was in 2023. What happened at the management committee in 2023? We were looking at a cost of €7 million. We knew the system was a mess. The then Minister had to answer questions in the Dáil. I presume people from the section were alongside the then Minister and giving her advice. She said that a new system would be in place by 2024. I am asking about the level of knowledge of the Department. Why were alarm bells not ringing?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Mr. Falvey never knew. He had been told in 2018 that the cost was €2.8 million. All the time, the Department was working on that figure. The Department did not say that the figure had jumped until the then Minister asked the question.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
After the debacle in 2023, when we knew the system was not working and the then Minister answered questions in the Dáil, the Department was still working on the basis of the cost estimate of €2.8 million and nobody asked any questions about it.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
Can the committee get a copy of the minutes of the ministerial management advisory committee, MinMAC, meeting and the management meeting from that time? That will clear up the matter.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
I would like the witnesses to reconfirm the assurances to the people at the coalface, that is, the artists. I know the reports are not due back until the autumn but I would like reassurance that artists will not be affected.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
This is what it is all about. That is the purpose of the Arts Council.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
I agree. My concern, however, is that the members of senior management who were in charge while this was going on are still there.
They might not be in the same positions but they are still in the Arts Council. That is my concern. To finish off that point, I hugely welcome the Minister's quick intervention in bringing in Professor Brennan and Ms O'Hara and getting those investigations in place, but my opinion is that there needs to be a total root-and-branch sorting out of the Arts Council. We cannot say, "There was €5.3 million missing, so let us shake things up a little", and walk out of this room and walk away. I know that within the term of this Government the witnesses will be back in here again with another scenario.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
That is so important because it has to be a full root-and-branch sorting out. We cannot walk away. This was horrendous. It involved €5.3 million. The artists I speak to are in fear that they might not get it. I know the Department is reassuring people, and that is important, but we are here to look after taxpayers' money and, with all due respect, this was an absolute disaster. The key people who were there are still working in the Arts Council, although maybe not in the same positions, as I said, and I am afraid that we will be back here within the term of this Government with the exact same case unless strong action is taken on the reports.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
I compliment the Department on that and on the witnesses' honesty tonight.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
Sorry, I had to pop up to the Chamber to speak so I hope I do not cover stuff that other speakers covered.
I want to revisit one of the questions I asked earlier. It was the first question I asked and it was about how artists and the artistic community are perceiving this. In the answer Mr. Ó Coigligh gave me, he said that the Minister has made assurances about his support of the basic income project and that the witnesses see evidence of that in the report. Can they tell me more about what the Department is doing to provide reassurance? To recap on the question, it is that alongside the changing of the name and the deterioration - I do not want to say it is a deterioration of the relationship between the two bodies, but there has definitely been a lot of talk and I think there is concern within the community that what was progress in the arts sector will be rolled back. What is the Department doing now amid all this to-----
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
I will ask my colleague Mr. Falvey to come in on what we are doing in a second but I will make this comment. What members have seen here has been a rupture. It has been very difficult for everybody involved. Out of this, however, good will come because it requires us all to reset, and from that reset good will come. I am convinced of that.
Mr. Falvey might speak about what we are doing.
Mr. Conor Falvey:
Historically, I am not sure the Department had that close a relationship directly with the sector. It tended to be through the agencies, but through the Covid pandemic we had a lot of direct engagement with a wide range of stakeholder groups, both within what might be called the subsidised arts sector and right across into live entertainment and, critically, with the National Campaign for the Arts. That has endured in the period since then, and the Minister met with the National Campaign for the Arts. The primary focus was on options around basic income. Recently he met its representatives on a number of occasions and took the opportunity to reiterate his own commitment directly to them. That filters back out into the arts sector. Again, every week, if not daily, we talk to people across the arts sector about-----
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
I appreciate the answers and, once again, the emphasis on the basic income. I do not doubt that the Department has connections with the arts community. What I am concerned about is that there are definitely concerns that this will mean throwing arts under the bus. That is what I am trying to get at. What is the Department doing strategically to make sure that that does not happen, that arts remain within the Department of Culture, Communications, and Sport as prominent as it always has been and that we do not see a regression of the progress in funding and support of the arts sector that has been built up over recent years? What strategically, as a management board, is the Department doing?
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
We provide €8 million to support Irish artists going abroad. We have a budget of €10 million in the Creative Ireland programme, which animates artists and other creative people up and down the country. We are really connected. We provide real supports to people day to day. It is a question of whether you walk the walk, and I think people see that.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
May I ask one quick question about the name change? Has the Department had a lot of feedback from the arts sector about it?
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
There has been a little bit, but most ministries in Europe are called the ministry of culture. It is okay for the French Ministère de la Culture. It encompasses the arts. The Department has been the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht and the Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht. It has changed. I do not think anything should be read into that, except that we want it to be accessible in terms of people reaching us. People could never understand the previous names and I think there was a great feeling, and the Minister was very keen on this as well, that we have a name that is strong, so the Department of Culture, Communications and Sport. Culture covers part of the media; communications also covers part of the media. It is a strong brand for our new Department.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
It is funny that on Teams we are still the arts and media committee, which are the two words that have been dropped from the Department's title.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Can Mr. Ó Coigligh confirm if the Department has written to the Data Protection Commission about an alleged significant data breach?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Yes, establish facts, but the Department wrote to the Data Protection Commission on information that the council-----
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
When does the Arts Council expect to come back to the Department? That is an incredible breach by an individual.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
Has the Department ever done that before anywhere else, gone to the Data Protection-----
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
It is amazing it would happen, though, is it not, with all the controversies in the Arts Council, that someone would potentially do this?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
It would feed into the problems within the Arts Council and senior levels of the Arts Council that things like this would happen. Obviously, we cannot name individuals.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
I have just one last question. You said earlier that mistakes were made. I meant to ask you this the last time around. You said that mistakes were made in the Department. What would you summarise as being the mistakes?
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
Mistakes were made at all levels. There were mistakes in project conception, project governance, project oversight, project management and the Department's oversight on our role.
Looking at the totality of the project, a litany of mistakes were made from day one right through until a halt was called.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
When Mr. Ó Coigligh says "litany", he is talking about corporate governance, financial governance and communications. I think he used the word "capture".
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
In relation to the Department, it was that capture in terms of maybe thinking we can manage it and not escalating it, and not asking for help early on, saying we think the project is getting into difficulty and we need to call in senior management to look at it. I think that is a significant failure on our side.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
Does any Senator or Deputy have one last question? No. We will see some of you again soon. I thank the witnesses for their time.