David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

I ask the Minister to hear me out. I am not saying it is the wrong strategy. The Minister and the board have told us not a penny more will be paid. Either BAM walks away from its claim or a deal is done. I asked the board if there was a possibility of a deal and was told it did not see it or it would go to court. Does anybody see the contractor walking away from it? No. The Minister stated that built into the additional money, which was made available and signed off by the Cabinet, is an amount to deal with claims. I do not know what that figure is. I cannot say for certain - I would contend that nobody can - that the final amount will not go above €2.2 billion. I do not want the matter in the courts either, but that will happen unless it is resolved and there is agreement. My question to the Minister - I have dealt privately with some of his officials - relates to whether the current approach in respect of BAM has worked? One could argue that it has not worked. I do not think any of us can give a guarantee.

I will let the Minister back in. I wish to make one final point. There has been considerable public commentary about the children's hospital and what people in opposition and the Minister have said. The Minister has to defend his position, which is fair enough. Many people are looking at all the failures in this. We went through them earlier. They are: the completion dates that have come and gone; all the cost overruns; and difficulties potentially now with staffing once the hospital is built whenever that might be. As Deputy Shortall stated, there is still no guarantee, certainty or confidence in any of the dates we have been given. It is fair to say that the blame game between the board and BAM is unseemly regardless of who might be right or wrong. There will be plenty of blame to go around. I know people hate hearing the words "lessons learned", but I have no doubt that when this hospital is finished there will be many learnings going back to the contract and all of the issues there.

I was struck by the Minister's earlier contribution regarding the meeting he had with BAM's partner company. He said he did not go under the bonnet or deconstruct the programme of works. That was a mistake. It would have been absolutely right to hold it to account for what it clearly has not done and to present evidence in that regard as opposed to having a general conversation. I am not confident that matters have moved on since he had that meeting. He said that we will wait and see. My view is that we have been here too often. I think the Minister would accept that. It does not matter whether in government or opposition, we have had God knows how many debates in the Oireachtas, including in this committee. Every time we are given a date, it changes. Every time we are given an amount, it becomes more and all the problems continue. I am not satisfied that what the Minister related to us today about that meeting with BAM's partner company has substantially moved anything on. I also put a lot of the responsibility on the contractor which needs to do what is required of it to resource the project, but there also needs to be political accountability.