Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

My point is that what PESCO is about is improving our capabilities. The EDA is about improving our capabilities. On issues like cybersecurity and undersea cables, collaboration is the name of the game. Why? The reason is that there is a lot of expertise about the place and we have to share knowledge. When the HSE was attacked, two of the first countries that contacted us - and I was Taoiseach at the time - were Poland and the United Kingdom. Why? The reason was that Poland had a similar attack from the same group in Russia.

Countries share knowledge around cybersecurity. When I met Richard Browne of the National Cyber Security Centre, he said collaboration is the only way that countries can be resilient against cyberattacks. We have to work together both to alert each other about the attacks we have experienced and the methodologies deployed to try to thwart them. There is a centre called the NATO Co-operative Cyber Defence Centre of Excellence in Estonia. It is not actually owned by NATO but Estonia runs it. We now have a person out there on rotation from the military. Why? I went there and what I saw on the board was a question about how you defend against an attack on your water utility system by cybersecurity threats. These are vital to the lives of our citizens. We cannot do it on our own and in isolation. I apologise to the Deputy but I am railing against a certain narrative that any attempt by Ireland to engage with any other member state of Europe is almost tantamount to sacrificing neutrality. I would have to strongly say it is not. We must be robust about the importance of collaboration, co-operation, sharing of knowledge and all of that.

Even having said that, our level of participation in all of this is quite on the lower side, if one takes on board all the commentary on it. Anyway, I have got that off my chest.