Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

This is voluntary opt-in. I want to say overall that "No" is the answer to that - an emphatic "No". We will be under no obligations. These are opt-in and on a voluntary basis, as I said, but I do think we need to. The Deputy suggested that she is objecting to the process here. Government has to take decisions in the normal course of events, and the Oireachtas has to take decisions. This is not rocket science at one level. There may be political arguments and ideology around this but I would have to strongly resist that assertion. The idea that we need experts to decide whether we participate, along with other states, in an education programme on energy management in our military installations is, to me, bonkers. I just do not get it. One of the projects here is €5,000 per member and €1,500 to join the project. I take the point on some other schemes, maybe, but these ones are fairly basic.

I think all the hype and noise around PESCO has been overdone. Historically, our participation in PESCO since we joined has been low. I was taken aback when I became Minister for Defence and I asked officials what we were involved. There is precious little despite all the shouting and roaring in Dáil Éireann that we are going to jettison our military neutrality and join somebody. It is all nonsense, in real terms. We need to get a grip as a country and a society. We are not joining NATO or a military alliance but we are part of a European civil-----